Slog
News & ArtsMonday, March 23, 2009
Fashion
Is My Scarf Fnarf Racist?
Posted by Lindy West on Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 12:35 PM
Accusations have been made.
8
Aren't those Japanese masks, from Kabuki theater? I'll bet a Japanese could even identify which characters those are; the red-faced guy with the long nose looks familiar.
10
its just an ugly scarf as far as I'm concerned, plus they are obviously masks, not caricatures of racial stereotypes
11
It's Japanese theater masks, yes.
Coming from a time in Japan when the Japanese were mostly a homogenous society.
Applying 20th century American ideas of racism to this makes NO sense, other than to show just how progressively sensitive and culturally ignorant the author is.
Look at me! I see prejudice and oppresion EVERYWHERE!
Very nice. How enlightened. You should travel more if you're going to put on airs like that.
Coming from a time in Japan when the Japanese were mostly a homogenous society.
Applying 20th century American ideas of racism to this makes NO sense, other than to show just how progressively sensitive and culturally ignorant the author is.
Look at me! I see prejudice and oppresion EVERYWHERE!
Very nice. How enlightened. You should travel more if you're going to put on airs like that.
14
The red one's called Tengu, i think.
Nowadays, it's the highly recognized icon of a chain restaurant in Japan.
Nowadays, it's the highly recognized icon of a chain restaurant in Japan.
20
I don't see anything racist in it unless you're trying to imply that the clown with the wide open mouth is a depiction of a black person.
23
Coming next in the Slog:
The "Have A Nice Day" smiley-face and what its yellow color says about current Asian-American stereotypes!
In addition: how come there's two shades of brown for M&M's but nothing in a caucasian shade? Racism? Or just fucking candy? You decide.
The "Have A Nice Day" smiley-face and what its yellow color says about current Asian-American stereotypes!
In addition: how come there's two shades of brown for M&M's but nothing in a caucasian shade? Racism? Or just fucking candy? You decide.
26
@12, are you a Japanese, or are you a Japanese-American? I was referring to the former. It's sad when immigrant groups that have previously been subject to racial discrimination start adopting the same xenophobic, US-centric attitudes as their former oppressors. Japan is not part of the US.
Maybe you'd have better luck folding your fucking cranes if you'd pull your head out of your ass.
Maybe you'd have better luck folding your fucking cranes if you'd pull your head out of your ass.
28
If sexy == racist, then, yes, your scarf is racist, Lindy, cause it's ultra-sexy.
I hear that Racism is the new Black.
I hear that Racism is the new Black.
30
@26 Is this a grammatical argument for you, then? Because I really think it's OK to just say "Japanese" rather than "a Japanese," which is weird.
32
Does your scarf define you as a person? If it does, then you have bigger problems than the scarf being racist.
36
My original phrase was "a Japanese would know". How else would you say it? "Japanese" is both a noun and an adjective: a Japanese, a Japanese person, the Japanese language, the Japanese islands. If it sounds weird to you, I don't know what to tell you; it's the first definition in any dictionary.
37
Using article + racial adjective to describe a person is, if nothing else, quite dated. Difference between "American" and "Japanese" is that "American" is very, very seldom used as a racial identifier. And probably wouldn't be understood if it were used that way.
38
Oh c'mon fnarf. Are you claiming that you haven't noticed the vast movement of the cultural vernacular from "a Chinese" to "a Chinese person" or "a native of China" or whatnot over the last, say, four decades?
40
@37, what the hell are you talking about? "Japan" is not a race, it's a country. The people who live there are called "Japanese", as is their land mass and their language. A Japanese is the ordinary way to refer to a resident of Japan, just as "an American" is the ordinary way to refer to a resident of the United States.
Are you seriously suggesting that no one says "Chinese" anymore because it's racist? You're, uh, wrong about that.
Am I really having this argument?
Are you seriously suggesting that no one says "Chinese" anymore because it's racist? You're, uh, wrong about that.
Am I really having this argument?
41
"TOKYO (Reuters) - Baseball-mad Japanese celebrated outside electronic stores and at work on Monday morning after Japan crushed the United States to reach the final of the World Baseball Classic."
42
Lindy, do your teardrops turn into jellybeans when they fall to the ground?
If so, you are not only racist, you're a racist dragon!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9Qu3iP3R…
If so, you are not only racist, you're a racist dragon!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9Qu3iP3R…
44
I don't know about it being racist or not, but, clearly, most people now say a "a Japanese person" or "a person from Japan" (as opposed to "a Japanese") when referring to an individual. When it's plural, I think there's a little more variation -- "the Japanese", "Japanese", "Japanese people", etc.
Unless you're my 80 year old neighbors, I guess, who still use the word Orientals, as in, "the Oriental couple next door".
Unless you're my 80 year old neighbors, I guess, who still use the word Orientals, as in, "the Oriental couple next door".
45
"Maybe you'd have better luck folding your fucking cranes if you'd pull your head out of your ass."
ROFFLE!!!!!
ROFFLE!!!!!
46
I'm suggesting, fnarf, that some nationalities are closely aligned with races in the public mind (Japanese and Chinese being two prime examples). I clearly did not suggest that no one uses the term "Chinese" anymore (although nice removal of the word "a" from my example); instead, I pointed to the large-scale move away from using article + nationality/race to refer to a person: "a Chinese"; "a Japanese."
47
I have never in my life until this day heard of a single person referred to as "a Japanese." Not necessarily racist, but definitely unusual.
48
It's only racist if someone else thinks it is - which means they have to get up real close, stare at the offending scarf, briefly judge, then state their irrelevant opinion. It's like those ties of old with the letters FUCK cleverly woven into the design - if you see FUCK then you're probably a sex maniac. Or a womaniac as they case may be.
49
There do seem to be some adjectives that sound more natural functioning as nouns. Race aside, it would be very odd to say "a French" or "an English" (generally one adds "man" or "woman" to the end) but less odd to hear "a Belgian" or "an Italian." I wonder if it has something to do with words that look more like our common notion of nouns.
50
@48 - if they're doing that, accuse them of sexual harassment.
which works for either guys or gals staring that close at you.
which works for either guys or gals staring that close at you.
51
OK, Lindy. Lindy? The police have the helicopter. It's flying over there now. Can you look out the window? Wave the scarf so they can find you.
52
@46: there is no such large-scale move. "A Chinese" is the correct way to refer to a person who resides in China, just as "a Moroccan" or "a Norwegian" or "a Pakistani" or even "a Liverpudlian" are correct. This move you're talking about isn't happening.
The word here is "demonym". Have a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demonym.
"A Japanese" may sound odd to people who don't refer to single Japanese very often. But if I said "120 million Japanese can't be wrong", you wouldn't bat an eye.
The word here is "demonym". Have a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demonym.
"A Japanese" may sound odd to people who don't refer to single Japanese very often. But if I said "120 million Japanese can't be wrong", you wouldn't bat an eye.
53
Fnarf, are you in your 90s? Saying "a Japanese" or "a Black" or "a.... anything" sounds racist. Just FYI, you won't sound like such a douche if you simply add "person" to the end of it.
54
who cares... all you need is more weather control and satellite operations command.. you'll rule the world as long as you remember to run like hell.
55
oh yeah, @53 i totally agree with you that calling anyone 'a something' is completely crazy batshit racist and i'd be appalled if it ever happened to me.
...
Sincerely,
An American
(get off my fucking lawn)
...
Sincerely,
An American
(get off my fucking lawn)
56
oh Fnarf, you are funny. keep up your defense, it's hilarious. i agree with those who think it's just ugly.
58
one quick little google search shows instance of NPR using the term "a japanese" without any sort of problem:
2007 October 16, Madeleine Brand, "Japan Struggles to Meet Its CO2 Emissions Limits", Day to Day, National Public Radio
"One Japanese couple goes a bit further than most in conserving energy.
Motoyuki Shibata isn't a typical Japanese.
He and his wife, Hitomi, don't own a car. They have a solar panel on the roof. They collect rainwater in an old whiskey barrel to water the plants, and they don't use dish soap."
2007 October 16, Madeleine Brand, "Japan Struggles to Meet Its CO2 Emissions Limits", Day to Day, National Public Radio
"One Japanese couple goes a bit further than most in conserving energy.
Motoyuki Shibata isn't a typical Japanese.
He and his wife, Hitomi, don't own a car. They have a solar panel on the roof. They collect rainwater in an old whiskey barrel to water the plants, and they don't use dish soap."
59
I'm afraid Fnarf is correct here, guys. "A Japanese" is not racist unless it's used to describe a person's race, which he was not doing; it's just not heard too often.
60
@53, you are completely and utterly full of shit.
I can't imagine how you people come up with this stuff. "A black" offends -- does "An African-American"?
I have already quoted an article from the Reuters wire service FROM TODAY that used the construction "baseball-mad Japanese". Is Reuters racist? From Wikipedia: "the people of Japan are called Japanese, which is also the name of their language". The JAPANESE call themselves "the Japanese" when they're speaking English.
Is "a Colombian" racist? "A Senegalese?" "A Bhutanese"? "A Nepali"? "A Monagasque? How about "a Seattleite"?
You remind me of the people -- real people, I've met some of them -- who think it's offensive to call a Jewish person "a Jew". THAT IS THE WORD.
If you think "a Japanese" is offensive, you really need to go fuck yourself.
I can't imagine how you people come up with this stuff. "A black" offends -- does "An African-American"?
I have already quoted an article from the Reuters wire service FROM TODAY that used the construction "baseball-mad Japanese". Is Reuters racist? From Wikipedia: "the people of Japan are called Japanese, which is also the name of their language". The JAPANESE call themselves "the Japanese" when they're speaking English.
Is "a Colombian" racist? "A Senegalese?" "A Bhutanese"? "A Nepali"? "A Monagasque? How about "a Seattleite"?
You remind me of the people -- real people, I've met some of them -- who think it's offensive to call a Jewish person "a Jew". THAT IS THE WORD.
If you think "a Japanese" is offensive, you really need to go fuck yourself.
62
I think it's fair to say that those who think "a Japanese" is racist, are actually racist themselves, since they're conflating nationality (which is a concrete thing) with ethnicity.
63
Lindy I have to get off the phone. I can't sit here all day. Can you see them or not? GO OUTSIDE AND LOOK FOR THE POLICE CAR!
The scarf is evidence. You have to give it to them. Don't try to elude them Lindy, I know how you Stranger people like to do it. When are you going to learn?
OK? OK??? I'm hanging up now. Let this be a lesson to you.
The scarf is evidence. You have to give it to them. Don't try to elude them Lindy, I know how you Stranger people like to do it. When are you going to learn?
OK? OK??? I'm hanging up now. Let this be a lesson to you.
64
Most of the masks resemble arch-villains from pre-WWII comix like Dick Tracy. One of them looks like a genie who once menaced Bugs Bunny.
66
@Fnarf: I am totally in your corner. It's like culs-de sac vs. cul-de-sac's. The proper way sounds weird because a lot of people say the plural wrong. I think a lot of people add the "person" on the end, which is OK but not necessary. Like adding 'very' to something. I know that I use terrible grammar/spelling all the time, and fuck, if something sounds weird I'll look it up. 9 times out of 10 the weird sounding sentence is proper and I am just saying it wrong.
There are also 10 million errors in the above paragraph. Is that racist?
There are also 10 million errors in the above paragraph. Is that racist?
67
@65, there are several dozen undeniable truths in my posts between the obscenities. Your inability to spot them suggests that those obscenities are for you. The shorter version of your post is "I can't read".
68
I was just thinking about a beer...totally going at it thinking, and then BOOM! I actually tasted the beer.
70
Longer Fnarf:
"Maybe you'd have better luck folding your fucking cranes if you'd pull your head out of your ass. (Wikipedia factoid). You are completely and utterly full of shit. (Wikipedia factoid). I can't imagine how you people come up with this stuff. (Wikipedia factoid). You really need to go fuck yourself."
"Maybe you'd have better luck folding your fucking cranes if you'd pull your head out of your ass. (Wikipedia factoid). You are completely and utterly full of shit. (Wikipedia factoid). I can't imagine how you people come up with this stuff. (Wikipedia factoid). You really need to go fuck yourself."
73
Ah, you're right, I swear too much. For fuck's sake, it's the truth. My argument is sound, though.
You folks are keen to see racism everywhere, but your ignorance of other cultures means you simply don't know what you're looking at. The scarf is almost certainly Japanese itself, and intended for a Japanese audience, since the characters portrayed on it would be familiar to them, but not to most Americans.
You folks are keen to see racism everywhere, but your ignorance of other cultures means you simply don't know what you're looking at. The scarf is almost certainly Japanese itself, and intended for a Japanese audience, since the characters portrayed on it would be familiar to them, but not to most Americans.
75
The scarf's not racist. Saying "a Japanese" isn't necessarily racist either. But I disagree that your argument regarding usage is sound. I just wish I could find the damn sources to back myself up. I know you shan't be convinced, but where nationality can also be used to describe ethnic identity, I agree with the viewpoint quoted here:
http://poynteronline.org/dg.lts/id.67/ai…
Of course, I'm just a racist.
http://poynteronline.org/dg.lts/id.67/ai…
Of course, I'm just a racist.
76
Also, fnarf, do you really have to set up a straw man? None of those who are arguing a counterpoint have called the damn scarf racist.
77
No, leek, you're wrong. "A Japanese" is not racist when talking about nationality. It's a style issue, to be sure, and most will opt to play it safe in order to avoid this tedious conversation, but when the context clearly indicates nationality, this usage is fine. In fact, this usage is even more clear, in my opinion, since "a Japanese person" could indicate either ethnicity or nationality, where "a Japanese" only suggests the latter.
78
OMG! It's sooo fuckin racist! This scarf, I mean! And everyone who ever even references race is, like, RACIST as all get-out!!
SLOG is hyper-racist, because, look at the background, people! Is it not oh-so-lily-white? That is RACIST!
RACIST!!
lol... This was the most entertaining comments thread I read all day... It makes me want to write a play... Actually, you could just stage this thread as is.. it'd be all avant-garde and shit... and, you know, RACIST!!! lol
OMG! It's sooo fuckin racist! This scarf, I mean! And everyone who ever even references race is, like, RACIST as all get-out!!
SLOG is hyper-racist, because, look at the background, people! Is it not oh-so-lily-white? That is RACIST!
RACIST!!
lol... This was the most entertaining comments thread I read all day... It makes me want to write a play... Actually, you could just stage this thread as is.. it'd be all avant-garde and shit... and, you know, RACIST!!! lol
79
dev: I never once said that using the term was racist. But feel free to go on misquoting me if it serves your argument.
82
I am half Japanese and grew up in Japan, and I immediately recognized the red mask on here as a tengu, which is a popular folk character. As for the other masks, I really don't know if they are as culturally appropriate or just generic drawings of masks...but either way, it isn't racist. People shouldn't be so paranoid about racism. That kind of attitude drives people to be ultra-sensitive around any mention or even implication of a minority, which is the kind of censorship that limits the visibility of minorities in public culture.
On that same note, using Japanese as a noun isn't racist, either. It just feels weird because other people think it feels weird, and collectively people assume that must mean it's racist. But just because something isn't said doesn't mean it shouldn't be said. Saying "a Japanese person" may relieve your conscience, but really, nobody needs to be reminded that Japanese are people.
People who dance around perfectly acceptable terms in order to be politically correct inadvertently insult minorities by finding something shameful in something being what it is. The implication of deeming "a Japanese" (or any other proper racial/national term) racist is that there is something unfavorable about being Japanese. I'm pretty sure nobody arguing that you shouldn't use Japanese as a noun meant to imply that, but ultimately that's what you accomplish by policing language too much.
On that same note, using Japanese as a noun isn't racist, either. It just feels weird because other people think it feels weird, and collectively people assume that must mean it's racist. But just because something isn't said doesn't mean it shouldn't be said. Saying "a Japanese person" may relieve your conscience, but really, nobody needs to be reminded that Japanese are people.
People who dance around perfectly acceptable terms in order to be politically correct inadvertently insult minorities by finding something shameful in something being what it is. The implication of deeming "a Japanese" (or any other proper racial/national term) racist is that there is something unfavorable about being Japanese. I'm pretty sure nobody arguing that you shouldn't use Japanese as a noun meant to imply that, but ultimately that's what you accomplish by policing language too much.
84
Leek, I could've sworn that racial sensitivity was the subject of our "usage" discussion. My mistake?
85
@81 Being taken down? By looking like the only grownup in the room? Clearly there's more than one way to read this comments thread. LOL
86
Naive wimpy white Emo Seattleite progressives who always wring their hands about "racism" are the stupidest people on Earth.
87
This is a common discussion in ESL and English-teaching circles:
http://uwf.edu/writelab/handouts/article…
While "a Japanese" is not grammatically incorrect, it is also not common contemporary American English usage, where one would more likely hear "he is Japanese" as opposed to "he is a Japanese". There most definitely is a trend away from usage of articles before nationality (i.e. "she is Canadian" vs. "she is a Canadian"), though again the use of the article is not incorrect. Even searching Google for the phrase "a Japanese" pulls results that overwhelmingly show "Japanese" in this case as a proper adjective, and very few results showing "a Japanese" being used to denote a person of the Japanese nationality or ethnicity.
Many ESL learners receive a simplified "hard and fast" rule to use articles before nouns denoting nationality, which is why among Japanese and Chinese English-speakers it may be common to hear "I am a Japanese" or "he is a Chinese", even though in contemporary American English that may sound dated or incorrect to some. This is particularly true for learners whose native language does not have articles. Having taught ESL and also speaking several languages, I've found that correct use of articles can be one of the most challenging parts of English grammar for non-native speakers.
More...
Whether or not an article is used with the names of nationalities depends on the way the name is used.
When the name of a nationality functions as a noun, the principles governing the use of articles with countable nouns apply.
There is a Brazilian in the store.
He is the Russian I met recently.
In referring to an entire group of people, no article is required if the name has a plural form; the may be used to single out one group from another.
Norwegians are fond of winter sports.
Do the Americans eat as much ice cream as the Italians?
The is ordinarily used if the name does not have a plural form.
The British are known for their civilized ritual of high tea.
The French have made their mark in the fashion world.
When the name of a nationality functions as an adjective complement, no article is used.
The Mitsubishis are Japanese.
Hans is German.
http://uwf.edu/writelab/handouts/article…
While "a Japanese" is not grammatically incorrect, it is also not common contemporary American English usage, where one would more likely hear "he is Japanese" as opposed to "he is a Japanese". There most definitely is a trend away from usage of articles before nationality (i.e. "she is Canadian" vs. "she is a Canadian"), though again the use of the article is not incorrect. Even searching Google for the phrase "a Japanese" pulls results that overwhelmingly show "Japanese" in this case as a proper adjective, and very few results showing "a Japanese" being used to denote a person of the Japanese nationality or ethnicity.
Many ESL learners receive a simplified "hard and fast" rule to use articles before nouns denoting nationality, which is why among Japanese and Chinese English-speakers it may be common to hear "I am a Japanese" or "he is a Chinese", even though in contemporary American English that may sound dated or incorrect to some. This is particularly true for learners whose native language does not have articles. Having taught ESL and also speaking several languages, I've found that correct use of articles can be one of the most challenging parts of English grammar for non-native speakers.
88
Leek, I'm trying, but failing, to see ANY connection at all between "a black" and "a Japanese". The first word describes a race, the second a nationality. "Japanese" isn't really a race; the Japanese are Asian. And no one in their right mind would ever argue that "an Asian", to describe a person who is ethnically Asian and resides in Asia, is offensive. NO ONE.
Your link is completely irrelevant. I agree with what Mr. Mills is saying. It's nothing to do with what I'm saying.
Please do not accuse me of saying "a yellow" (cognate of your "a black"), because I didn't. I also didn't say "a Nip" or "a Jap" or any of the offensive WWII-era terms that you appear to be reacting to instead of what I actually said, which is THE CORRECT USAGE.
Note also that an ACTUAL JAPANESE has now popped up in here to correct you.
I'm still waiting for the explanation of how "a Japanese" is different usage than "an Italian". If you will concede that "an Italian" is not an offensive or outmoded way to refer to a resident of Italy, then you MUST concede the same about "a Japanese".
Japan is the name of the country. Japanese is the name of the people who live there. Why is this hard for you to grasp? I would suggest instead that what has happened in YOUR mind is an association between the word "Japanese" and the racist stigma of an epithet. Not mine.
Your link is completely irrelevant. I agree with what Mr. Mills is saying. It's nothing to do with what I'm saying.
Please do not accuse me of saying "a yellow" (cognate of your "a black"), because I didn't. I also didn't say "a Nip" or "a Jap" or any of the offensive WWII-era terms that you appear to be reacting to instead of what I actually said, which is THE CORRECT USAGE.
Note also that an ACTUAL JAPANESE has now popped up in here to correct you.
I'm still waiting for the explanation of how "a Japanese" is different usage than "an Italian". If you will concede that "an Italian" is not an offensive or outmoded way to refer to a resident of Italy, then you MUST concede the same about "a Japanese".
Japan is the name of the country. Japanese is the name of the people who live there. Why is this hard for you to grasp? I would suggest instead that what has happened in YOUR mind is an association between the word "Japanese" and the racist stigma of an epithet. Not mine.
90
Filoblog, your examples don't match my usage. I used "a Japanese" because I was referring to a hypothetical ONE person. "The Mitsubishis are Japanese" is a different case entirely; for one thing, they are plural, so the article goes away; for another, it's essentially an adjectival usage, like "The Mitsubishis are rich".
The reason you don't find the usage in Google much is because it's a relatively unusual way to need to refer to a person -- it's much more common in news articles and what-not to refer to a Japanese car or a Japanese novelist or a Japanese businessman. But in my usage the only particular characteristic of a Japanese I was referring to is knowledge of basic archetypes of Japanese theater, i.e., virtually all Japanese, and it would be stupid to explicate that. "A Japanese" is exactly correct. "A Japanese person" is unnecessary.
In your other examples, the usage is also different. Yes, you could say "she is Canadian" -- that's adjectival, like "she is tall". But if you were to say "I met a Canadian person while we were in Buenos Aires", that would sound awkward -- you'd say "I met a Canadian" (and you certainly wouldn't say "I met Canadian").
It's not common to refer to individuals by their nationality alone, which is why you don't see "a Japanese" often. There's something about the -ese endings that sounds odd -- "a Senegalese", "a Chinese", "a Viennese". That doesn't make them wrong.
And it certainly does not make them racist.
The reason you don't find the usage in Google much is because it's a relatively unusual way to need to refer to a person -- it's much more common in news articles and what-not to refer to a Japanese car or a Japanese novelist or a Japanese businessman. But in my usage the only particular characteristic of a Japanese I was referring to is knowledge of basic archetypes of Japanese theater, i.e., virtually all Japanese, and it would be stupid to explicate that. "A Japanese" is exactly correct. "A Japanese person" is unnecessary.
In your other examples, the usage is also different. Yes, you could say "she is Canadian" -- that's adjectival, like "she is tall". But if you were to say "I met a Canadian person while we were in Buenos Aires", that would sound awkward -- you'd say "I met a Canadian" (and you certainly wouldn't say "I met Canadian").
It's not common to refer to individuals by their nationality alone, which is why you don't see "a Japanese" often. There's something about the -ese endings that sounds odd -- "a Senegalese", "a Chinese", "a Viennese". That doesn't make them wrong.
And it certainly does not make them racist.
91
Fnarf: I don't really think anyone here is interested in hearing more of my take, so I'll keep it brief. I think that in this country, there's a history of using SOME nationalities (which I'm quite aware are actually descriptors of a country's people) to describe people's presumed racial identities. In the past, this led to a person being described in the news, etc. as "a Chinese." My sole argument is that it has become less common to use that terminology, possibly because it puts less emphasis on their personhood, more emphasis on what has historically been used as a racial identifier.
I'm done. Ain't convincing anyone, clearly, and don't really care to keep setting myself up for more whitey-based insults.
I'm done. Ain't convincing anyone, clearly, and don't really care to keep setting myself up for more whitey-based insults.
92
@90, not sure why you're arguing with me. Nowhere in my comment does it say that "a Japanese" is incorrect or racist:
You wrote that
I am basically making the same point. It is not technically incorrect and there is no inherent inference of racism. It is also not a common contemporary American English usage. In contemporary English, nouns that determine nationality that end in -ese, -ish, -ch are generally not preceded by the article a/an when referring to a person, for example, Chinese, Danish, French, Nepalese, Polish, Dutch. In the case of Polish or French, for a noun one would use "Pole" or "Frenchman/Frenchwoman" (or even "Polish person" or "French person"), whereas the -ese words function as both noun and proper adjective. "A Nepalese" is not incorrect or racist, but it's not something commonly heard among Native English speakers. In plural form, however, when referring to a group as a whole, "the French", "the Poles", "the Nepalese" etc. are standard. This discussion, by the way, is happening in many online language/linguistic forums.
There is a school of thought that says referring to a person solely by their nationality or ethnicity, especially preceded by an article, i.e. "a Japanese" or "a Russian" could infer racism, as the speaker defines that person by their nationality or ethnicity, rather than their humanity (i.e. being a person first and foremost). (If you want a good flame war, check some out some of those forums). There are arguments that one would not refer to a person just as "a blond" or any other characteristic, so why ethnicity?
When describing three people you met last night at a party, is the most relevant thing about them that they are Jews, Blacks, or Koreans? It depends on the context, but stating that "I met a Jew at a party last night" has a off-putting sound to my ear. That does not mean that I would assume racism on the part of the speaker, but without some context, it sounds like the speaker is defining that person only by their religion or ethnicity, in which case I might wonder what the relevance is, but that's a whole big can of worms that I probably shouldn't open here. My 86-year old (bigoted) grandmother speaks this way, and it's her way of defining others as 1) separate from her and 2) less than her.
Again, it all depends on tone and context. I would guess that to some people reading "a Japanese" might sound racist. If it was coming from my grandmother, it most definitely would be. However in my comment I was not implying that was the case in your posts on this thread, or that it inherently carries that quality.
More...
While "a Japanese" is not grammatically incorrect, it is also not common contemporary American English usage...
You wrote that
It's not common to refer to individuals by their nationality alone, which is why you don't see "a Japanese" often. There's something about the -ese endings that sounds odd -- "a Senegalese", "a Chinese", "a Viennese". That doesn't make them wrong.
I am basically making the same point. It is not technically incorrect and there is no inherent inference of racism. It is also not a common contemporary American English usage. In contemporary English, nouns that determine nationality that end in -ese, -ish, -ch are generally not preceded by the article a/an when referring to a person, for example, Chinese, Danish, French, Nepalese, Polish, Dutch. In the case of Polish or French, for a noun one would use "Pole" or "Frenchman/Frenchwoman" (or even "Polish person" or "French person"), whereas the -ese words function as both noun and proper adjective. "A Nepalese" is not incorrect or racist, but it's not something commonly heard among Native English speakers. In plural form, however, when referring to a group as a whole, "the French", "the Poles", "the Nepalese" etc. are standard. This discussion, by the way, is happening in many online language/linguistic forums.
There is a school of thought that says referring to a person solely by their nationality or ethnicity, especially preceded by an article, i.e. "a Japanese" or "a Russian" could infer racism, as the speaker defines that person by their nationality or ethnicity, rather than their humanity (i.e. being a person first and foremost). (If you want a good flame war, check some out some of those forums). There are arguments that one would not refer to a person just as "a blond" or any other characteristic, so why ethnicity?
When describing three people you met last night at a party, is the most relevant thing about them that they are Jews, Blacks, or Koreans? It depends on the context, but stating that "I met a Jew at a party last night" has a off-putting sound to my ear. That does not mean that I would assume racism on the part of the speaker, but without some context, it sounds like the speaker is defining that person only by their religion or ethnicity, in which case I might wonder what the relevance is, but that's a whole big can of worms that I probably shouldn't open here. My 86-year old (bigoted) grandmother speaks this way, and it's her way of defining others as 1) separate from her and 2) less than her.
Again, it all depends on tone and context. I would guess that to some people reading "a Japanese" might sound racist. If it was coming from my grandmother, it most definitely would be. However in my comment I was not implying that was the case in your posts on this thread, or that it inherently carries that quality.
95
IMOHO? No. But it just might be mimeist. Is mimeism a form of racism? I don't know. We're not that sophisticated down here in Texas.
97
Don't fret, leek; I think most commentators here agree with you (just not me). Thanks for your thoughtful contributions, though. Nice chat.
102
I don't think fnarf is racist either, but the post title does make me giggle now.
Not making me giggle: the pedoporn.
Not making me giggle: the pedoporn.
104
The pedoporn and the n-word crap: not funny. But par for the course for my enemies, who are pedophiles and racists all.
105
The construction "a Japanese" is correct, if awkward. Anybody who's never run across it before needs to turn to the "Asia Pacific" section of the newspaper more often.
107
Yes, dear. Now run along to bed, the grownups are talking, and you have a social studies test tomorrow.
108
Fnarf, your parole officer called.
Have you been loitering near the elementary school playground, again?
Have you been loitering near the elementary school playground, again?
111
Is Slog going to have user registration any time soon? I know, I know, I'm the 9000th person asking. Just want to point out, as evidenced by some of the foul posts on this thread, why registration is really, really, really needed.
112
I think the little attention whore has had his fill for the day. P.S. I'm into vintage and I like that scarf - good score!
113
I don't think for a moment that you're racist, Fnarf, but I do think that the term 'a Japanese', although, as you say, perfectly correct, sounds very strange for some reason.
Most of the terms I can think of that sound okay used as a singular noun seem to end with an 'n', eg: a South African, a German, a Canadian, whereas a Danish, a Welsh, a Spanish all sound wrong. Not disrespectful or racist, just peculiar. The only exceptions I can come up with are ones ending in a 'k' sound: a Czech, a Greek, or an 'ee' sound: an Israeli, a Bangladeshi.
Perhaps the oddness and unfamiliarity of 'a Japanese' just makes people uncomfortable when they hear it and, because it's hard to pinpoint exactly why it sounds wrong, people are mis-attributing that discomfort to racism on your part.
Most of the terms I can think of that sound okay used as a singular noun seem to end with an 'n', eg: a South African, a German, a Canadian, whereas a Danish, a Welsh, a Spanish all sound wrong. Not disrespectful or racist, just peculiar. The only exceptions I can come up with are ones ending in a 'k' sound: a Czech, a Greek, or an 'ee' sound: an Israeli, a Bangladeshi.
Perhaps the oddness and unfamiliarity of 'a Japanese' just makes people uncomfortable when they hear it and, because it's hard to pinpoint exactly why it sounds wrong, people are mis-attributing that discomfort to racism on your part.
114
Fnarf, just say 'Nipponese'. After 5 years living in that sh*thole, it worked for me. Most racist a**holes in Asia.
BTW, most Japanese think they are a race. It's like living in the 1950s there but with fancy cell phones.
Ware ware Nihonjin!
BTW, most Japanese think they are a race. It's like living in the 1950s there but with fancy cell phones.
Ware ware Nihonjin!
115
Warning:
@98 links to an html based trojan innoculating expolit,
probably a variant of HTML/Exploit.DialogArg
Don't go there unless you have good antivirus protection. The link should be taken down.
@98 links to an html based trojan innoculating expolit,
probably a variant of HTML/Exploit.DialogArg
Don't go there unless you have good antivirus protection. The link should be taken down.
116
@115 -- I knew better, and you probably did too, but I still clicked on it. Had to hit the switch on the power strip. Even command-Q (Mac) didn't work like it used to. I felt silly.
117
@113 - A Dane. A Spaniard. I don't know about Welsh, other than a Welshman.
I think the entire argument is nonsense. If someone said "a Taiwanese" or "a Filipino", nobody would bat an eye.
I think the entire argument is nonsense. If someone said "a Taiwanese" or "a Filipino", nobody would bat an eye.
118
In all of this arguing, no one has addressed the constuction that always baffles me: when something is translated into English from another language, credit is often given to the translator by saying "translated from the Japanese by Jane Doe." Now that has always sounded wrong to me. It seems like it would either be "translated from Japanese" or, even more awkwardly but precisely, "translated from the Japanese language." I don't know.
121
Somebody stole one chopstick from each of the pairs of chopsticks I own, rendering the remaining chopsticks useless.
122
@118, that's always sounded odd and old-fashioned to me as well. My only guess is that it's a shortened version of "translated from the (insert language) original". A quick look at some translated novels on my bookshelf shows that "translated by (author name)" is maybe more common now, with no reference to the original language.
126
And........... if comment #125 will not warrant user registration here on the Slog... What the fuck will????
129
Sigh...@125 also, and just goes to prove once again the level at which my opponents operate mentally.
131
COMMENT DELETED: Cock Puppetry
We'd like to moderate your comments so all off-topic, gratuitously inflammatory, threatening, or otherwise inappropriate remarks will be removed except for the idiot assholes who run this 2 bit paper, and repeat offenders may be made to kiss Fnarfs AIDS-ridden dick. We ALWAYS censor comments based on ideology. Fuck you all who add to the conversation.
We'd like to moderate your comments so all off-topic, gratuitously inflammatory, threatening, or otherwise inappropriate remarks will be removed except for the idiot assholes who run this 2 bit paper, and repeat offenders may be made to kiss Fnarfs AIDS-ridden dick. We ALWAYS censor comments based on ideology. Fuck you all who add to the conversation.
134
I missed 125.
Could the deleted stuff be stored somewhere so people could go read it?
I hate to miss a good one.
Could the deleted stuff be stored somewhere so people could go read it?
I hate to miss a good one.
135
@134, it was one of my fans pretending to be me using the n-word. Not a particularly good one. 110 was one of my fans pretending to be me rhapsodizing about raping a little girl. These are the natural obsessions of these people.
138
COMMENT DELETED: Cock Puppetry
We'd like to moderate your comments so all off-topic, gratuitously inflammatory, threatening, or otherwise inappropriate remarks will be removed except for the idiot assholes who run this 2 bit paper, and repeat offenders may be made to kiss Fnarfs AIDS-ridden dick. We ALWAYS censor comments based on ideology. Fuck you all who add to the conversation.
We'd like to moderate your comments so all off-topic, gratuitously inflammatory, threatening, or otherwise inappropriate remarks will be removed except for the idiot assholes who run this 2 bit paper, and repeat offenders may be made to kiss Fnarfs AIDS-ridden dick. We ALWAYS censor comments based on ideology. Fuck you all who add to the conversation.
139
Any Asian kid in his later teens or early 20s would easily obliterate Fnarf in a barfight, in fact, Fnarf's only weapon, a computer mouse flung wildly in screaming fear, is so non-lethal as to make one wonder why he even talks shit online. He can't back any of it up IRL. God, what a sad and desperate poser.
140
For what it's worth, I tell my ESL students that using an article + a substantive form of a group descriptor is not the preferred/polite way to refer to a member of that group. It's not just a matter of ethnicity, either: "a Gay" is as bad as "a Black" or, for that matter, "a Japanese."
Letting the adjective stand as an adjective and using a noun like "person" is just much better all around. This is doubled, if not squared, for plurals ("The Blacks;" "The Gays")
This is not to say that the original poster had racist intent, but then, that's how privilege works.
Letting the adjective stand as an adjective and using a noun like "person" is just much better all around. This is doubled, if not squared, for plurals ("The Blacks;" "The Gays")
This is not to say that the original poster had racist intent, but then, that's how privilege works.
141
140
'a gay' sounds, well, gay; I'll grant you.
But what about 'a faggot'?
What if you add an adjective; as in
'a punk faggot'; as in
'Every Seattle male I ever met was a punk faggot'?
is that more acceptable than
'Every Seattle male I ever met was a gay'?
'a gay' sounds, well, gay; I'll grant you.
But what about 'a faggot'?
What if you add an adjective; as in
'a punk faggot'; as in
'Every Seattle male I ever met was a punk faggot'?
is that more acceptable than
'Every Seattle male I ever met was a gay'?
142
Explain to me again, Hypatia, how "a Canadian" expresses privilege?
"A gay" and "a black" are in no way similar to "a Japanese" or "a Canadian". It doesn't matter how many times you repeat it, or invoke "white privilege" or "straight privilege" or "non-Canadian privilege"; it's NOT THE SAME THING.
"Japanese" is NOT AN ADJECTIVE in this case (obviously it can be). If you look it up in the dictionary, it is a noun: "a person resident in Japan".
I'll admit it's awfully clever of you to accuse me of "privilege" for using "a black" or "a gay" when I never did any such thing. You must be proud.
"A gay" and "a black" are in no way similar to "a Japanese" or "a Canadian". It doesn't matter how many times you repeat it, or invoke "white privilege" or "straight privilege" or "non-Canadian privilege"; it's NOT THE SAME THING.
"Japanese" is NOT AN ADJECTIVE in this case (obviously it can be). If you look it up in the dictionary, it is a noun: "a person resident in Japan".
I'll admit it's awfully clever of you to accuse me of "privilege" for using "a black" or "a gay" when I never did any such thing. You must be proud.
143
I still say that "a Japanese" is different from "a Canadian" in that it's been historically used to describe ethnicity as well as nationality. But what the fuck am I doing back here anyway?!
144
Fair enough. I see your point. But it's both. And I think that shying away from the correct -- and perfectly non-offensive -- word for an ethnicity is more about fear than it is about sensitivity. As someone said above, it is perilously close to implying that there's something wrong with being Japanese, something to tiptoe around.
But we can agree to differ.
"Privilege", on the other hand, is another matter. Yes, it exists; yes, I have it; yes, I am aware of it, and how it works. "A Japanese", being a matter of fact, isn't it.
But we can agree to differ.
"Privilege", on the other hand, is another matter. Yes, it exists; yes, I have it; yes, I am aware of it, and how it works. "A Japanese", being a matter of fact, isn't it.
148
So, I consider myself an average, decent guy, I dress plain,and look pretty average. I don't really fit into any specific group. But I met this cumdumpster punk a few weeks ago at the mall. I'll make this short..Things were going great. That is until one night, we were driving in my car. I pulled off the highway, and drove down an old dirt road and parked by an old lighthouse to piss, when i got back she started making out with me and groping my cock. Then she took the thing out and started sucking on it immediately ( i literally couldn't stop her) I kind of felt weird about it because I probably still had piss on my filthy dick..anyways, she told me she was turned on by guys when they piss. Now she wants me to piss in her mouth..this is so fucked up...and obviously disgusts me, I haven't talked to her since .what should i do?
149
On behalf of all Americans, I would like to apologize for Fnarf's racist attacks on the Japanese self-identified national and ethnic identity, and know that their core beliefs are that they are all descended from the same original racial group.
Sorry about that, he's just being a dick.
Sorry about that, he's just being a dick.
150
(caveat - one of my relatives is Japanese and I worked with Nisei for most of my military career)
153
All you crazy fucks don't know jack about Japan. A Japanese is a fuckin' Japanese, no apology needed from whitey.
154
YOU CAN TALK ALL YOU WANT ABOUT THE FNARFES HORRIBLE RACISM BUT WHAT ABOUT DAN SAVAGES RPLACE MAFIA AND THEIR DISCRIMINATION AGAINST DYKES OF SIZE AND RADICAL FAERIES HES THROWN US UNDER THE BUS SURE AS OBAMA AND HIS ANTI-QUEER AGENDA ITS ALL THE SAME WHETHER YOU LIVE IN WASHINGTON DC OR VASHON ISLAND THINK ABOUT THAT IS YOU DARE IF YOUR NOT PART OF THE GAY WHITE MALE OPPRESIVE CLASS!
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