Slog
News & ArtsSunday, March 22, 2009
Politics And where do the Republicans say true Americans live?
Posted by Chicago Fan on Sun, Mar 22, 2009 at 5:33 PM
On this slow Slog night, just a little something to piss you off. Many Southerners, it seems, want to celebrate the upcoming 150th Anniversary of their fucking rebellion against the United States of America with public holidays and suchlike. Wonder what Bill Ayers would think about that?
2
Holly shit. There's a confederate history month? And one thousand towns celebrate/ recognize Jefferson Davis's birthday??
3
"More than 1,000 municipalities celebrate the holiday with parades and festivals, said Charles McMichael, commander in chief of the Sons of Confederate Veterans, and efforts are under way to spread it nationwide, state by state."
Hey, no thanks.
Hey, no thanks.
4
Their rebellion? Oh you mean that one they lost?
Count me out. In fact, I wish they would re-secede. Let them go.
Count me out. In fact, I wish they would re-secede. Let them go.
5
In my AP American History class, we studied the conclusion that the Civil War was mostly economic. The South was a commodities provider. The North was industry...as long as transportation was limited, the South supplied cotton to the Northern mills. What happened was the North could suddenly get cotton and materials from other, cheaper, sources. The South was looking at an "economic enslavement" because it could not compete with Northern factories. Therefore, the seceded to take control of their economy.
8
Why does Julie want to bite Bill Ayers? And where does she want to bite him? Hey, I'm getting this Slog shit down.
9
@5
'course, the south's commodity economy was driven almost entirely by ... slavery. and let's not forget that a huge part of the north/south divide was the slave slave state/free state. Read about Bleeding Kansas.
it seems to me that celebrating the confederacy is celebrating jim crow by proxy. And everything that entails. What a slime pit.
'course, the south's commodity economy was driven almost entirely by ... slavery. and let's not forget that a huge part of the north/south divide was the slave slave state/free state. Read about Bleeding Kansas.
it seems to me that celebrating the confederacy is celebrating jim crow by proxy. And everything that entails. What a slime pit.
11
Have any of you ever been to a Civil War re-enactment? I haven't.
It's has all the hopeless romanticism and costumed nostalgia of a ren-fair.
Add to that the juvenile thrill of "playing guns" with authentic toys.
Barbecue may be typical. Beer may be served. It will likely be a spring day.
Don't pass judgement if you ain't never been to one.
I'd go to one of these things before I'd go to a monster truck show.
It's has all the hopeless romanticism and costumed nostalgia of a ren-fair.
Add to that the juvenile thrill of "playing guns" with authentic toys.
Barbecue may be typical. Beer may be served. It will likely be a spring day.
Don't pass judgement if you ain't never been to one.
I'd go to one of these things before I'd go to a monster truck show.
12
9
You're being a little harsh.
Because great benefits were derived from the sacrifices of slaves.
And people didn't believe Africans were as human as whites.
Slaves were the human embryos of the early 1800s.
You're being a little harsh.
Because great benefits were derived from the sacrifices of slaves.
And people didn't believe Africans were as human as whites.
Slaves were the human embryos of the early 1800s.
13
Wow #5. It takes some wild defense mechanisms to blame the civil war on northerners secretly enslaving white southerners.
14
Southerners were poor and didn't have health insurance.
Douglas ran on a platform of taxing rich Northerners to provide universal healthcare. Change you can believe in, he called it.
But Lincoln won and the poor Southerners said "screw this".
Douglas ran on a platform of taxing rich Northerners to provide universal healthcare. Change you can believe in, he called it.
But Lincoln won and the poor Southerners said "screw this".
15
Pretty clever how some Southern States observe Confederate holidays on MLK Day. Quite the rapscallions I'd say.
16
The devil offspring of the southern confederates have always sought to redefine their criminal past by romanticizing it. But no matter how much they try to weave their shameful "heritage" into american culture they will always be reject and seen for the rotten S O B's they are.
17
Confederacy buffs are revisionist assholes to a man. Their interest in history dates to 1960, not 1860, when they had their whites-only polity taken away from them by civil rights legislation. You want to see the legacy of the Confederacy? Don't look for Robert E. Lee; look for Bull Connor and the fire hoses of Birmingham, Alabama. You want to celebrate that? Go fuck yourself.
18
The thing about slavery is it was nearly defunct until the 1830s when Eli Whitney invented the cotton gin. Only then could slave labor and Southern cotton become cost effective to produce. So here is an example of a compact technology which lead to the extension of slavery.
@5: Yes, but it was the North that bought the product and received the benefit of the reduced price cotton. The South was basically like an African country in the 1960s that wanted to nationalize its commodity products and reap the bigger rewards of industrialization. To do that they felt they had to rewrite the laws by seceding so that the North could not exploit them.
As far as Lincoln, he was pro-slavery until he realized that he needed to get popular support for a war designed to re-establish economic control over the southern states.
The thing about slavery is it was nearly defunct until the 1830s when Eli Whitney invented the cotton gin. Only then could slave labor and Southern cotton become cost effective to produce. So here is an example of a compact technology which lead to the extension of slavery.
@5: Yes, but it was the North that bought the product and received the benefit of the reduced price cotton. The South was basically like an African country in the 1960s that wanted to nationalize its commodity products and reap the bigger rewards of industrialization. To do that they felt they had to rewrite the laws by seceding so that the North could not exploit them.
As far as Lincoln, he was pro-slavery until he realized that he needed to get popular support for a war designed to re-establish economic control over the southern states.
22
I'm trying to picture the social, economic, and political climate of the US minus the Southern states, and I think I like it better. Screw secession, can't we just vote them out?
23
@5: What you were taught in high school (in the South?) was more or less the argument that slaveholders used during the Civil War to justify succession. It not only ignores the role of racial ideologies in shaping regional economic differences, but ignores the emancipation proclamation's significance to the Civil War. It is a dishonest argument.
@ 17: The south's historical revisionism about the Civil War as a noble "lost cause" was actually immediate, not a product of the 1960s. White southerners renewed and reinforced that sense of victimization by the federal government in response to the civil rights movement's use of federal laws to break Jim Crow.
It's scary how much these toxic arguments linger. A friend of mine learned in high school in Virginia in the 1990s that the Civil War was the "war of northern aggression." To this day they teach kids to hate Sherman, while none of them have ever heard of the Fort Pillow massacre or other genocidal acts by Southern soldiers and militias. They think slaveholders were victims of an oppressive system based in the North!
@ 17: The south's historical revisionism about the Civil War as a noble "lost cause" was actually immediate, not a product of the 1960s. White southerners renewed and reinforced that sense of victimization by the federal government in response to the civil rights movement's use of federal laws to break Jim Crow.
It's scary how much these toxic arguments linger. A friend of mine learned in high school in Virginia in the 1990s that the Civil War was the "war of northern aggression." To this day they teach kids to hate Sherman, while none of them have ever heard of the Fort Pillow massacre or other genocidal acts by Southern soldiers and militias. They think slaveholders were victims of an oppressive system based in the North!
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@15 Actually the article was misleading. They don't celebrate the Confederacy on MLK day out of spite, as it may seem prima facie. Jan 19th is Robert E. Lee's birthday. MLK day is celebrated on the third Monday of every January, which, this year, happened to fall on R. E. Lee's day.
R. E. Lee was a decent man, ahead of his time, and as worthy as any American from that war to be celebrated. He freed the slaves that he inherited, and gave them all trust funds. And his definitive surrender was not only courageous, but it saved the nation from perpetual guerrilla warfare and never-ending violence.
R. E. Lee was a decent man, ahead of his time, and as worthy as any American from that war to be celebrated. He freed the slaves that he inherited, and gave them all trust funds. And his definitive surrender was not only courageous, but it saved the nation from perpetual guerrilla warfare and never-ending violence.
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@23 Your rebuttal overlooks the fact that the Emancipation Proclamation only freed slaves living in seceded states. Lincoln cared less about human rights and more about using politics to win the war. The E.P. didn't do shit for slaves in Maryland, Kentucky or Missouri...
A lot of slave owners died in blue and a lot of non-slave owners in gray. It was no doubt a huge impetus for secession, but let's not delude ourselves thinking that Unionists marched nobly to battle hoping to end slavery. Most were not likely quite so altruistic. Racism is the larger issue and it was not determined by the state lines in which one found himself.
A lot of slave owners died in blue and a lot of non-slave owners in gray. It was no doubt a huge impetus for secession, but let's not delude ourselves thinking that Unionists marched nobly to battle hoping to end slavery. Most were not likely quite so altruistic. Racism is the larger issue and it was not determined by the state lines in which one found himself.
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@26: The Emancipation Proclamation changed the war. No one said it ended racism, northern or southern. As for Lee, this "decent man" prolonged a senseless war to defend the rights of white people to OWN black people. Only after the South was thoroughly destroyed by the North did he "courageously" surrender. And he didn't even "save the nation from perpetual guerrilla warfare and never-ending violence." Ever heard of the KKK? The race riots in Memphis, Wilmington, Atlanta, Tulsa et al?
Jesus Christ I can't believe people think this shit in the 21st century!
Jesus Christ I can't believe people think this shit in the 21st century!
28
This time let's celebrate by letting them secede. Sorry, minorities, homosexuals, intellectuals, etc., you're going to have to move in with us. We're not letting these goofballs drag us down anymore.
29
It's none of your business how Southerners decide to honor their heritage. You want them to be ashamed of their entire ancestry to satisfy your own New Millenium sensi-poo. What none of you know and will never know or accept is that Southerners know that slavery was wrong and that the fight to preserve that horrific, out-moded system was a fundamentally stupid idea. You've all drunk this ignorant Kool-Aid of "Southerners as mumbling hayseeds" and think they all lack the ability to reason altogether. Well, that's YOUR problem, not the problem of the South. I believe you'll find, if you were to ask, that there are not a lot of Southern folks sitting up nights worrying about what people in Seattle think of their stewardship of their heritage. To say that it's wrong of Southerners to commemorate the signal event of their history is like saying that all Germans shall now and forever more don sackcloth and ashes for their "role" in the rise of Hitler. News Flash: all those folks who did that stuff are DEAD. Hitler is DEAD. Your own proud ancestors - who, it goes without saying, never broke any laws, did anything stupid or inhumane, or even once did a thing which was accepted then but is seen as immoral now - are all DEAD. We are all responsible for what we do NOW. And that does not mean that the citizens of ANY region of this country have to surrender their rituals or their pride in the memories of their ancestors to please Seattle. This entire discussion is indicative of FAR more about the typical Northwesterner's presumption of superior enlightenment that it is about any supposed character flaws inherent in the Southern culture. In other words - BUZZ OFF. If you don't like the ceremonies, I suggest you not attend. That'll show 'em.
30
So who is this Bill Ayers?
Is he one of al-Qaeda's top operatives amongst the Talibangelists that hate America?
Let's build more high speed railways and crush them.
Is he one of al-Qaeda's top operatives amongst the Talibangelists that hate America?
Let's build more high speed railways and crush them.
31
@29: To say that it's wrong of Southerners to commemorate the signal event of their history is like saying that all Germans shall now and forever more don sackcloth and ashes for their "role" in the rise of Hitler.
Yeah! It's kinda like a German proposing to celebrate November 9th as a "national heritage" holiday, right?
Asshole.
Yeah! It's kinda like a German proposing to celebrate November 9th as a "national heritage" holiday, right?
Asshole.
32
@18: It's a fairly minor point amongst the gallons of bullshit you're spewing, but Eli Whitney invented the cotton gin in 1793, not the 1830's.
And nothing was preventing any ambitious Southerners from starting up industries. But when the rich men could live off the sweat of slaves, and spend their time going to balls and fucking their (slave) maids, where's the incentive? And as for the poor backwards-ass redneck peckerwood fucks who are still the majority of white Southerners, well I guess they were just too stupid and lazy to exhibit any initiative.
People who say the Civil War was not about slavery are idiots.
And nothing was preventing any ambitious Southerners from starting up industries. But when the rich men could live off the sweat of slaves, and spend their time going to balls and fucking their (slave) maids, where's the incentive? And as for the poor backwards-ass redneck peckerwood fucks who are still the majority of white Southerners, well I guess they were just too stupid and lazy to exhibit any initiative.
People who say the Civil War was not about slavery are idiots.
33
One thing about all the posters here...you don't realize that many southern states have or are achieving majority African American populations. They, like any rational group of people, may also wish to secede so as to not have to pay the bills of overspending, nonproductive coastal cities.
34
But when the rich men could live off the sweat of slaves, and spend their time going to balls and fucking their (slave) maids
Dude...have your parents put on v-lock; you've been watching the AMC directors cut of Mandingo too many times.
Dude...have your parents put on v-lock; you've been watching the AMC directors cut of Mandingo too many times.
35
Yeah, I'm sure Texas and Arkansas chose Jan. 19 just because R.E.L. was so fucking important. It was just a coincidence that the date falls on or near MLK Jr. day every year. It's not like they could have their little shindigs on April 12 or April 9.
For your sake, and the sake of any of your current or future progeny, I sure hope you're a parody troll.
Jan 19th is Robert E. Lee's birthday. MLK day is celebrated on the third Monday of every January, which, this year, happened to fall on R. E. Lee's day.
Yeah, I'm sure Texas and Arkansas chose Jan. 19 just because R.E.L. was so fucking important. It was just a coincidence that the date falls on or near MLK Jr. day every year. It's not like they could have their little shindigs on April 12 or April 9.
They, like any rational group of people, may also wish to secede so as to not have to pay the bills of overspending, nonproductive coastal cities.
For your sake, and the sake of any of your current or future progeny, I sure hope you're a parody troll.
36
Clearly, the South has nothing to be proud of other than being descended from treasonous bigots. If they want to proclaim that is their greatest source of regional pride, who am I to disagree with them?
37
28
No thanks.
We'd rather stay in the Union and leverage our political power to get the nation to do what we want.
The GOP is in our pocket.
And until last year the only Democrats who could get elected President for half a century were Southerners and unless Obama starts reaching out his Presidency will make Carter's look good. (You don't think Warren was there to please Seattle Liberals, do you?)
If gays had a tenth the political savvy of your average redneck potbellied Southern Senator they would have gotted marriage 80 years ago and have elected a President by now.
No, I think we'll stay where we are and continue to have whoever is trying to run the country kiss our asses.
(Oh yeah, and keep collecting a bucK fifty for every buck we pay in taxes- Thanks!)
No thanks.
We'd rather stay in the Union and leverage our political power to get the nation to do what we want.
The GOP is in our pocket.
And until last year the only Democrats who could get elected President for half a century were Southerners and unless Obama starts reaching out his Presidency will make Carter's look good. (You don't think Warren was there to please Seattle Liberals, do you?)
If gays had a tenth the political savvy of your average redneck potbellied Southern Senator they would have gotted marriage 80 years ago and have elected a President by now.
No, I think we'll stay where we are and continue to have whoever is trying to run the country kiss our asses.
(Oh yeah, and keep collecting a bucK fifty for every buck we pay in taxes- Thanks!)
38
I wouldn't celebrate Alabama or Mississippi being at the bottom of every quality of life measurement. And the behavior of the South during the civil rights era was nothing short of a disgrace. To say nothing of the damage done to the reputation of this country around the world because of it's continuing racism. But Obama must piss them off for daring to be President and celebrating Abraham Lincoln. Let them have their parties, the fucking losers. Oh, and the South did rise again with G.W. Bush and look at the shameful mess they made. It seems they never learn.
39
Ever see the mockumentary "Confederate States Of America?" A show based on the premise of American life, had the South won the Civil War. As I watched, feeling uncomfortable by the contents of this movie, I strangely envisioned many a southerner masturbating at the very prospect of how life would have been, had the south won, as they watched this tongue-in-cheek movie.
41
The south is sort of America's bad little joke. Every time they try to "rise again" they get slapped dowm. I have some confederate flag toilet paper, but I won't use it for fear of desacrating the sewer system.
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@33
Hey shithead: the coastal (and inland) cities pay far more federal taxes than mostly rural Southern states, all of whom get far more back in taxes from the Feds than they pay. So, yeah, secede again, please. Leave my tax dollars for urban issues.
Hey shithead: the coastal (and inland) cities pay far more federal taxes than mostly rural Southern states, all of whom get far more back in taxes from the Feds than they pay. So, yeah, secede again, please. Leave my tax dollars for urban issues.
45
Did the south secede to protect slavery? Well, lets take a look at the primary materials, shall we? How about the ordinances of secession from Georgia, Texas, South Carolina and Mississippi? (http://sunsite.utk.edu/civil-war/reasons…) Every single one of them lists the protection of slavery as the primary cause of secession.
Georgia: For the last ten years we have had numerous and serious causes of complaint against our non-slave-holding confederate States with reference to the subject of African slavery.
Mississippi: Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world.
South Carolina: Those States have assume the right of deciding upon the propriety of our domestic institutions; and have denied the rights of property established in fifteen of the States and recognized by the Constitution; they have denounced as sinful the institution of slavery;
Texas: We hold as undeniable truths that the governments of the various States, and of the confederacy itself, were established exclusively by the white race, for themselves and their posterity; that the African race had no agency in their establishment; that they were rightfully held and regarded as an inferior and dependent race, and in that condition only could their existence in this country be rendered beneficial or tolerable.
Anybody who says that the civil war wasn't caused by slavery is a stupid, hypocritical, delusional sack of shit.
Georgia: For the last ten years we have had numerous and serious causes of complaint against our non-slave-holding confederate States with reference to the subject of African slavery.
Mississippi: Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world.
South Carolina: Those States have assume the right of deciding upon the propriety of our domestic institutions; and have denied the rights of property established in fifteen of the States and recognized by the Constitution; they have denounced as sinful the institution of slavery;
Texas: We hold as undeniable truths that the governments of the various States, and of the confederacy itself, were established exclusively by the white race, for themselves and their posterity; that the African race had no agency in their establishment; that they were rightfully held and regarded as an inferior and dependent race, and in that condition only could their existence in this country be rendered beneficial or tolerable.
Anybody who says that the civil war wasn't caused by slavery is a stupid, hypocritical, delusional sack of shit.
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@45
You rock. Primary documents: the one thing the internets let us get at, but so few of us actually peruse or use.
You rock. Primary documents: the one thing the internets let us get at, but so few of us actually peruse or use.
49
Why not have a 150 year celebration? The US Navy could even chip in by blockading all the southern ports.
51
46:
Actually, no I don't. But bloviating like this hardly takes any time at all. What really keeps me from getting any is writing a statistics book in my spare time.
Actually, no I don't. But bloviating like this hardly takes any time at all. What really keeps me from getting any is writing a statistics book in my spare time.
52
@33, @43: more detail about what states pay in taxes and receive in services can be found here: http://www.taxfoundation.org/research/sh…
The old Confederacy gets a great deal from the Feds. Here's 2005:
Mississippi got $2.02 for every tax dollar they send in
Louisiana got $1.78
Alabama got $1.66
Virginia got $1.51
Arkansas got $1.41
South Carolina got $1.35
Tennessee got $1.27
North Carolina got $1.08
Georgia got $1.01
Florida got 97 cents
Texas got 94 cents
Those Northern "coastal cities" are getting screwed:
New Jersey got 61 cents back on every dollar
Connecticut got 69 cents
New Hampshire got 71 cents
Delaware got 77 cents
California got 78 cents
New York got 79 cents
Massachusetts got 82 cents
Washington got 88 cents
Oregon got 93 cents
Southern Pride is heavily subsidized by government spending. Northerners and Westerners, especially in the big cities, are carrying the South. If the South is going to rise again, maybe y'all could start paying your own way, hmm?
The old Confederacy gets a great deal from the Feds. Here's 2005:
Mississippi got $2.02 for every tax dollar they send in
Louisiana got $1.78
Alabama got $1.66
Virginia got $1.51
Arkansas got $1.41
South Carolina got $1.35
Tennessee got $1.27
North Carolina got $1.08
Georgia got $1.01
Florida got 97 cents
Texas got 94 cents
Those Northern "coastal cities" are getting screwed:
New Jersey got 61 cents back on every dollar
Connecticut got 69 cents
New Hampshire got 71 cents
Delaware got 77 cents
California got 78 cents
New York got 79 cents
Massachusetts got 82 cents
Washington got 88 cents
Oregon got 93 cents
Southern Pride is heavily subsidized by government spending. Northerners and Westerners, especially in the big cities, are carrying the South. If the South is going to rise again, maybe y'all could start paying your own way, hmm?
53
@33 and @ FNARF
Thanks for Data--and note that the two old Confederacy states which don't get back more than they send the Feds are the two states with the most big cities/metro areas: Dallas, Houston, San Antonio, El Paso, Fort Worth, Austin, Arlington--Miami, Orlando, Tampa-St.Pete, Jacksonville. Only a few of the other rebel states have more than one top-100 cities by population.
Thanks for Data--and note that the two old Confederacy states which don't get back more than they send the Feds are the two states with the most big cities/metro areas: Dallas, Houston, San Antonio, El Paso, Fort Worth, Austin, Arlington--Miami, Orlando, Tampa-St.Pete, Jacksonville. Only a few of the other rebel states have more than one top-100 cities by population.
54
52
Did you read 37?
What better indication of having 'risen again' than having obliging Northerners pouring their hard earned money into your state, for FREE!
Did you read 37?
What better indication of having 'risen again' than having obliging Northerners pouring their hard earned money into your state, for FREE!
55
@54, hmm, tough one. How about having a standard of living somewhat above that of the Third World? Mississippi and Alabama, northern Florida, most of Georgia and Tennessee and South Carolina are fucking toilets, with literacy rates and per-capita incomes and educational levels and cultural attainments that are a national embarrassment. So, yeah: enjoy your welfare states and your poverty and your declining influence on American life. Celebrate those long-ago glory days. Tote that barge. We've got a world to live in, and we don't need you.
56
I think we need to put the Confederate Flag on the penny, so that I can enjoy crushing it every time I get a souvenir penny at a tourist site.
Hey, just a thought.
And then when someone is being racist, we can throw pennies at them.
Hey, just a thought.
And then when someone is being racist, we can throw pennies at them.
58
55
gee, Steve, I suspect you haven't seen much of the South.
Southern states are gaining population relative to the rest of the nation.
Someone must think it has a nice enough standard of living.
Perhaps being cooped up in a failing welfare state hellhole like Seattle gives you a distorted perspective.
There are places where the bus system works and the snow is cleared in a few hours and people aren't afraid to walk the city streets at night.
(people around here call Seattle the New Orleans of the NorthWest)
Enjoy your Seattle 'lifestyle', Steve.
Lounge over your PI and sip a Starbucks.
Just hope the last rat scurrying out of Seattle remembers to flush that human crapper.
gee, Steve, I suspect you haven't seen much of the South.
Southern states are gaining population relative to the rest of the nation.
Someone must think it has a nice enough standard of living.
Perhaps being cooped up in a failing welfare state hellhole like Seattle gives you a distorted perspective.
There are places where the bus system works and the snow is cleared in a few hours and people aren't afraid to walk the city streets at night.
(people around here call Seattle the New Orleans of the NorthWest)
Enjoy your Seattle 'lifestyle', Steve.
Lounge over your PI and sip a Starbucks.
Just hope the last rat scurrying out of Seattle remembers to flush that human crapper.
59
56
Will, perhaps you could tattoo a Confederate Flag on your balls.
Then you could crush them every time you sit down to pee and get them stuck under the toilet seat, you spastic bitch.
Hey, just a thought.
And then, when someone is being a racist, you could moon them.
Will, perhaps you could tattoo a Confederate Flag on your balls.
Then you could crush them every time you sit down to pee and get them stuck under the toilet seat, you spastic bitch.
Hey, just a thought.
And then, when someone is being a racist, you could moon them.
60
@58, Alabama's rate of growth due to migration is much lower than Washington's. It picked up in the '90s, after many decades of massive population loss. Alabamans do, however, like people in most Third World nations, breed like rabbits, which has made up for the difference. In the 2000s, Alabama is estimated to have grown by 4.8%; Washington by 21.1%.
"Lifestyle" in this case has nothing to do with coffee drinks and everything to do with average life expectancy (Alabama ranks 48th among the states, Washington 13th, more than four years longer), GDP per head (Alabama ranks 44th, Washington 17th -- more than $10,000 more per person) and infant mortality rate (Alabama 5th-highest, Washington 39th-highest, almost half).
Health index: Alabama 41st, Washington 13th.
Lest you think I'm cherry-picking these two states to skew the data, let me just tell you that the healthiest states are Vermont and New Hampshire; the least healthy are Louisiana and Mississippi. The Deep South as a group comes out worst in just about every conceivable measure. Washington is well above-average.
But you feel free to make your ill-informed (and ill-formed, too, but that goes back to the difference in state literacy rates, I imagine) criticisms, instead of working to make your state a more worthwhile place to live.
There are some people in Alabama who are looking to the future, creating jobs and improving people's lives, but they're not the sort who celebrate the ugliest parts of their disastrous history.
"Lifestyle" in this case has nothing to do with coffee drinks and everything to do with average life expectancy (Alabama ranks 48th among the states, Washington 13th, more than four years longer), GDP per head (Alabama ranks 44th, Washington 17th -- more than $10,000 more per person) and infant mortality rate (Alabama 5th-highest, Washington 39th-highest, almost half).
Health index: Alabama 41st, Washington 13th.
Lest you think I'm cherry-picking these two states to skew the data, let me just tell you that the healthiest states are Vermont and New Hampshire; the least healthy are Louisiana and Mississippi. The Deep South as a group comes out worst in just about every conceivable measure. Washington is well above-average.
But you feel free to make your ill-informed (and ill-formed, too, but that goes back to the difference in state literacy rates, I imagine) criticisms, instead of working to make your state a more worthwhile place to live.
There are some people in Alabama who are looking to the future, creating jobs and improving people's lives, but they're not the sort who celebrate the ugliest parts of their disastrous history.
61
"Most Southern states recognize Confederate Memorial Day as a legal holiday. Some celebrate it on the June birthday of Confederate President Jefferson Davis, but Texas and Arkansas observe it on Jan. 19, the federal holiday for slain civil rights leader Martin Luther King Jr."
WHAT?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
WHAT?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
62
Speaking of Alabama, as I see it, EARTH is the Alabama of the Universe. If there is any intelligent life beyond our planet, I'm positive they advise each other not to even bother stopping here, even if they are short of fuel and need to gas up.
63
60
You dwell too much on statistics, you pasty bloated fishfaced pompous ass.
You might consider more how you live your life and less how long you may cling to it.
You're average trailer park redneck whitetrash Alabamian does more actual living in a year than you will eke out in your miserable measured 75.9 years.
You dwell too much on statistics, you pasty bloated fishfaced pompous ass.
You might consider more how you live your life and less how long you may cling to it.
You're average trailer park redneck whitetrash Alabamian does more actual living in a year than you will eke out in your miserable measured 75.9 years.
68
In 1860 Alabama had a white population of 525,000.
About 120,000 would fight in the Civil War, about a fourth of them would die.
They were fighting for Alabama.
Alabama did not regret or begrudge the price then.
It does not now.
To put it in perspective, it would be as if America enlisted 67,000,000 to fight in Iraq and almost 17 million died.
It would be as if Washington State with 6.5 million sent 1,500,000 off to war and 375,000 never came home.
Would one and a half million Washingtonians fight for their state?
Would they risk, and a fourth give, their lives for Washington State?
Or would they cling to their alloted 75.9 years greedily.
Seattle Liberals have nothing to teach Alabamians about quality of life.
About 120,000 would fight in the Civil War, about a fourth of them would die.
They were fighting for Alabama.
Alabama did not regret or begrudge the price then.
It does not now.
To put it in perspective, it would be as if America enlisted 67,000,000 to fight in Iraq and almost 17 million died.
It would be as if Washington State with 6.5 million sent 1,500,000 off to war and 375,000 never came home.
Would one and a half million Washingtonians fight for their state?
Would they risk, and a fourth give, their lives for Washington State?
Or would they cling to their alloted 75.9 years greedily.
Seattle Liberals have nothing to teach Alabamians about quality of life.
69
@68
No, but you might learn a thing or two about the quality of arguments. None of your bullshit statistics speak to the points made by the people you think you're refuting.
No, but you might learn a thing or two about the quality of arguments. None of your bullshit statistics speak to the points made by the people you think you're refuting.
70
I'm pretty sure a fourth of Washingtonians would not fight and die for the ownership of human beings. You got me there.
I'm also pretty sure we never had widespread outbreaks of pellagra here, either. Y'all got that under control nowadays?
Lynyrd Skynyrd sucks donkey dick, by the way. The Allman Brothers were OK in places, though, when Duane was still alive.
I'm also pretty sure we never had widespread outbreaks of pellagra here, either. Y'all got that under control nowadays?
Lynyrd Skynyrd sucks donkey dick, by the way. The Allman Brothers were OK in places, though, when Duane was still alive.
71
@70: Not to be defending dumbasses who wanna wave the Confederate flag around and talk about their "heritage" out of pure mean-spirited ignorance, but let's be fair: Southerners today no more personally defended slavery through force of arms than modern Washingtonians personally killed the Nez Perce. People have some fucked-up ideas about which parts of their cultural heritage to take pride in, but there's plenty of stupid to go around in that regard. I don't hear a lot of politicians, when they give one of those boilerplate speeches on Memorial Day about our brave generations of fighting men, ever make an exception for the Indian Wars or the Spanish-American War or the Philippine-American War or any of a host of other highly questionable conflicts engaged in by our nation. No, they spread the honor around to all the soldiers who fought when asked regardless of the reasons for war or the outcome. If there's blame to be parceled out, good taste demands it rest on the shoulders of the leaders who called them to fight.
Also, Southerners get tired of getting picked on by snotty Northerners, especially when it really boils down to "we're better than you because you're poor." That shit is fucking obnoxious. So maybe tone down the patronizing tone a bit. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't go off on Mexicans for coming from a place where poverty is rampant, and yet that's what you're doing to Southerners. So damn straight they get upset about it. They have a point.
Also, Southerners get tired of getting picked on by snotty Northerners, especially when it really boils down to "we're better than you because you're poor." That shit is fucking obnoxious. So maybe tone down the patronizing tone a bit. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't go off on Mexicans for coming from a place where poverty is rampant, and yet that's what you're doing to Southerners. So damn straight they get upset about it. They have a point.
73
It's true the Emancipation Proclamation only freed slaves in states that were in rebellion. If you owned a slave in Washington DC you could rest assured that that slave was still your property. Lincoln was a poet who used the Constitution as his muse, he could only free slaves in states that were in rebellion, to free slaves in states that weren't would have been unconstitutional.
As for Robert E. Lee, read "Grant Speaks," it sure helps to take Lee down a few pegs. What an asshole.
As for a meditation on slavery I really liked "The Confessions of Nat Turner." It made me think how our nation was born in kink. I mean think about it, you know, just close your eyes and take a few deep breaths and think about how fucking sexy it would be to own people. People you could have absolute control over. You could fuck anyone, do anything. Knowing what we know about what bankers will do once the regulations are called off, just what do you think white guys who think they own the world wouldn't do to a pretty young black thing? So, you know, you got this plantation, and it's really making money on the cotton thing, but you got people to take care of that, what you're really into is the permanent sex holiday you seem to have been born into. So you have the guy who owns the plantation down the river up for dinner on a Thursday night. Oh, yeah! You both know, with that glint in your eye, that wry smile, fuck yeah! It's kinky nation! And yes, yes, we'll all jump on our horses and fight to bloody gory death to preserve "our way of life." l
As for Robert E. Lee, read "Grant Speaks," it sure helps to take Lee down a few pegs. What an asshole.
As for a meditation on slavery I really liked "The Confessions of Nat Turner." It made me think how our nation was born in kink. I mean think about it, you know, just close your eyes and take a few deep breaths and think about how fucking sexy it would be to own people. People you could have absolute control over. You could fuck anyone, do anything. Knowing what we know about what bankers will do once the regulations are called off, just what do you think white guys who think they own the world wouldn't do to a pretty young black thing? So, you know, you got this plantation, and it's really making money on the cotton thing, but you got people to take care of that, what you're really into is the permanent sex holiday you seem to have been born into. So you have the guy who owns the plantation down the river up for dinner on a Thursday night. Oh, yeah! You both know, with that glint in your eye, that wry smile, fuck yeah! It's kinky nation! And yes, yes, we'll all jump on our horses and fight to bloody gory death to preserve "our way of life." l
75
69
That's the point.
A batch of cold census statistics are an incredibly lame basis for pride in state and region.
That may be what motivates Northwesterners but it lacks any soul or vitality.
Which kind of describes Seattle.
That's the point.
A batch of cold census statistics are an incredibly lame basis for pride in state and region.
That may be what motivates Northwesterners but it lacks any soul or vitality.
Which kind of describes Seattle.
76
@ 75: I'll keep my fresh salmon, clam strips and geoduck, and you can keep your catfish and squirrel stew, and lets just call it even.
77
@ 75: I'll keep my fresh salmon, clam strips and geoduck, and you can keep your catfish and squirrel stew, and lets just call it even.
78
The "soul or vitality" of the south is 100% down to the descendants of those African slaves. White people in the south have neither. At least, the ones who celebrate the Confederacy don't. Your antebellum plantation culture is entirely bogus: false, deliberately misleading, and worthless.
If you want to talk about Southern folkways, food and music, let's get it on, but if you want to bring out the Confederate Battle Flag and start spouting nonsense, you're going to lose the argument. Just like last time.
If you want to talk about Southern folkways, food and music, let's get it on, but if you want to bring out the Confederate Battle Flag and start spouting nonsense, you're going to lose the argument. Just like last time.
79
If it's not a racial thing, why do they celebrate it as an alternatie to MLK Day? Why not as an alternative to President's Day or the 4th of July? Those are political holidays, so you'd be making a protest political statement. But MLK Day is all about that great man's triumph and sacrifice in pursuit of racial equality. When you recongnize Confederate Day in lieu of MLK Day, you automatically have made a racial (and racist) statement.
80
Hey Chicago Fan and the rest of you, read your history and quit being an idiots. The American Civil war was not a civil war or a rebellion because the south had no desire to take over the Federal Government. The southern states wanted to LEAVE the "union" and had the constitutional right to do so. The "union" supported the unfair trade practices of the northern states and along with waning cotton production the southern economy was in very poor shape. They felt they had to leave the union to take back control of their destiny. Further more, the south did NOT want a war. Davis pleaded with Lincoln to let the south succeed peacefully. The idiot Lincoln was going to unconstitutionally force the south to remain in the union, hence the term "war of northern aggression." The failure of the federal government created the environment which lead to the South's desire to succeed and the federal government was not able to correct the situation. And, accompanied by Lincoln's poor decisions so many thousands of Americans needlessly died. And by the way, I guess you think the colonial states' little rebellion was a fucking stupid thing to do.
81
Typical Seattle claptrap: a whole gang of self-aggrandizing idiots spewing big pronouncements, unalterably convinced that everybody everywhere else actually gives a shit about your opinion of them. Sad, feckless little men so isolated from the rest of American society that you've overcompensated for your provincialism by convincing yourselves that your cloistered attitudes constitute sophistication and enlightenment. It would be sad...if it weren't so fuckin' funny!
-Stevenj
-Stevenj
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