Friday, March 20, 2009
Religion O They Will Know We Are Christians By Our...
Posted by Dan Savage on Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 2:16 PM
...actually, wait a minute. Are Mormons even Christians? They're always saying so, but lots of other Christians insist that Mormons aren't. But, hey, we're bigger than that here on Slog so we're going to give Magic Underpants, Inc., the benefit of the doubt:
O They Will Know We Are Christians By Our...
...hate and our duplicity and our half-assed coverup.
In new charges filed Thursday with the California Fair Political Practices Commission, the Los Angeles-based Californians Against Hate accuses the [Mormon] church of creating the National Organization for Marriage in California as early as summer 2007 as a front group for its agenda, while failing to report the costs as required by California law.The amended complaint also adds six other charges that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints delayed disclosure or vastly underreported other nonmonetary contributions to the campaign, including the costs of compensated staff time for senior church officials and production of 23 sophisticated TV and Web commercials. What the church has disclosed "seems just to be the tip of the iceberg as far as what they spent in support of Prop 8,'' Californians Against Hate spokesman Fred Karger said.
The amended charges are the latest development in a backlash about Utah's heavy role in California's Proposition 8 campaign.
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2
Mormons aren't Christians. That's like calling a Christian a Jew. Just as Jews don't subscribe to the New Testament, Christians don't subscribe to the Book of Mormon or whatever its called.
3
So what is it you're saying? That "Christians" are underhanded snakes? Two faced liars? Bearers of false witness? Religious fanatics whose sense of reality is subverted by wild, insane, self righteous idiocy? Couldn't be! Ask the Pope!
4
#2 - Christians aren't Jews because they don't believe Jesus to be the son of God, their savior, etc. Mormon's are Christians, as are Catholics, who some non-denominationals like to argue also aren't.
It's fun to point out that many Christians aren't monotheists though, despite how they perceive themselves.
It's fun to point out that many Christians aren't monotheists though, despite how they perceive themselves.
5
It would be interesting to check propositions in other states and see if the Mormon church funded anti gay measures or fought pro gay measures. I'm guessing they didn't just target California.
6
Outrageous use of the tax payers money, truly pathetic. On this time when Cali is going through a deficit crisis some feel its more appropriate to harass people. Gays truly know how to organize a lynching party.
Sick people out there, Casting judgement on people for excising the freedom that our Constitution grants them of being able to share their message with others. If you want to disparage people of faith amongst yourselves fine but stop persecuting them already or the people will get fed up with your shenanigans.
Sick people out there, Casting judgement on people for excising the freedom that our Constitution grants them of being able to share their message with others. If you want to disparage people of faith amongst yourselves fine but stop persecuting them already or the people will get fed up with your shenanigans.
7
@4 All Christian denominations use the bible. Mormons are the only group to use the Book of Mormon. They don't believe Jesus to be the savior of mankind, rather just one of the saints. (hence, Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints)
9
I know, Loveschild, it's so terrible that we are opposed to people stating their beliefs (which is their constitutional right). Oh, wait, aren't you opposed to people on this blog stating their beliefs. You aren't going to change people's minds, but you do reinforce the idea that Christians are haters. Thanks for that, by the way.
10
@4, catholics are not monotheists, for instance. they believe in praying to jesus, mary and god. that makes two deities more than the jews have.
hey, 6, looks like lds broke the law. we should ignore that? it's called "pro"-secution not "per"-secution, fyi
hey, 6, looks like lds broke the law. we should ignore that? it's called "pro"-secution not "per"-secution, fyi
12
@6 I know you probably don't want to listen to reason, but there is a legitimate tax code issue at work here. The LDS church, like all other churches, claims tax-exempt status. Tax-exempt organizations cannot engage in direct political campaigning, and it's starting to look like the LDS church committed a major violation of that rule. I support this action because I support upholding the law.
13
#7 - The Book of Mormon declares on page one that Jesus is their eternal God, their Savior, blah blah blah etc ... I have no idea why I'm arguing this point, since they can all go suck it, BUT...
"Latter-day Saints believe that complete salvation is possible only through the life, death, resurrection, doctrines, and ordinances of Jesus Christ and in no other way."
http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/respo…
Also, #6 asking the California's FPPC to do it's job is hardly "wasting taxpayer's money". They're already investigating other aspects of this case, as well as the LDS' involvement in funding a similar initiative in Hawaii 10 years ago.
"Latter-day Saints believe that complete salvation is possible only through the life, death, resurrection, doctrines, and ordinances of Jesus Christ and in no other way."
http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/respo…
Also, #6 asking the California's FPPC to do it's job is hardly "wasting taxpayer's money". They're already investigating other aspects of this case, as well as the LDS' involvement in funding a similar initiative in Hawaii 10 years ago.
16
12 I'm all for upholding the law, but this case has nothing to do with political campaigning. The LDS were not telling people to vote for any party or candidate. Informing others about what homosexuals intended to do has nothing to do with politics. Gays are not a political party, so the argument that people who oppose their ideology are somehow being political does not hold water. If the churches were actively campaigning for a Republican or Democratic candidate then I would be completely in favor for their investigation and if found guilty of their prosecution. But this is not the case, this is a mere witch hunt by gay groups who want vengeance.
17
@17: Using church resources to campaign in favor of a specific ballot measure? Hmm. Sounds like a violation to me.
18
@16 - Sorry, but your argument is just as ludicrous as turning water into wine. Of course the COJCATLDS were involved in political campaigning. They were trying to prevent gay marriage by persuading VOTERS during an ELECTION. Voters + election = politics. And F your witch hunt BS excuse. I hope one day someone strips you of your civil right to be a complete dumbass.
19
The campaign to pass Proposition 8 was a POLITICAL campaign. Do you even know what "political" means? Obviously you don't, or you wouldn't have posted that last comment.
20
Some fundie christians do not consider catholics to be real christians. this whole thing is as silly as trekies arguing about which star trek spin off was ture to the original series.
mormons, catholics and baptists all believe in a fictional figure called jesus who they believe came back from the dead after sacrificing himself to himself for our sins. a lot of people have sufferd much more than jesus was said to have suffered and did not have the luxry of coming back to life. what I am saying there jesus fans
is that I doubt the depth of his sacrifice even if he did exist. the book of mormon is as much of a load of crap as the old and new testament. having jesus appear in north america (according to the mormons) was just a marketing ploy. in the future some new cult will claim that jesus appeared on a moon colony or space station.
mormons, catholics and baptists all believe in a fictional figure called jesus who they believe came back from the dead after sacrificing himself to himself for our sins. a lot of people have sufferd much more than jesus was said to have suffered and did not have the luxry of coming back to life. what I am saying there jesus fans
is that I doubt the depth of his sacrifice even if he did exist. the book of mormon is as much of a load of crap as the old and new testament. having jesus appear in north america (according to the mormons) was just a marketing ploy. in the future some new cult will claim that jesus appeared on a moon colony or space station.
21
Catholics aren't Christians, either. It's a false church, revealed by Martin Luther during the middle ages.
22
@6 and @20 are truly scary people. For heavens sake, believe what you want, but you don't get to trample on other people's rights. "I may not agree with what they say, but I will fight to the death for their right to say it." is a fairly basic United States tenant. So @6 and @20 can say whatever they want because we are in the USA, but it's my responsibility to stand up for even their "inalienable rights endowed by the creator" because I want them to stand up for my rights.
23
Where did I ever say that people cannot believe what the wish, #22? I am not tryiing to take away their rights, they would take away mine. America is a secular nation founded on secular ideas. They want to impose their christian definition of marriage on everybody. Also if they use church money for political campaigns they should lose their tax exempt status. Churches should be taxed anyway because in a secular country like the U.S. they should have no special rights just because thay are a church.
24
I'll get to the point in a minute but first I have to invoke Wells Law.
The idea is similar to Godwin's Law but applied to any stupid, gratuitious assholish reference to the contemptible practice of lynching. Past violaters include Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas and Congressman Bobby "I hate Barack Obama so much I'm endorsing a rich white guy" Rush. And now Loveschild comes on here talking about gays organizing a lynching party over a political campaign involving our existing inalienable right to marriage equality in the state of California. Not cute.
In any event, no religious organization should be using it's tax exempt status for political campaigns, period. And even when they did so, the Mormons apparently violated the law in financial reporting.
@5 I believe the Mormons were the main force behind anti-gay measures in Hawaii and Alaska back in the 1990's. They recently tried to butt their noses in Illinois civil union debate but, apparently, they seem to have backed off.
The idea is similar to Godwin's Law but applied to any stupid, gratuitious assholish reference to the contemptible practice of lynching. Past violaters include Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas and Congressman Bobby "I hate Barack Obama so much I'm endorsing a rich white guy" Rush. And now Loveschild comes on here talking about gays organizing a lynching party over a political campaign involving our existing inalienable right to marriage equality in the state of California. Not cute.
In any event, no religious organization should be using it's tax exempt status for political campaigns, period. And even when they did so, the Mormons apparently violated the law in financial reporting.
@5 I believe the Mormons were the main force behind anti-gay measures in Hawaii and Alaska back in the 1990's. They recently tried to butt their noses in Illinois civil union debate but, apparently, they seem to have backed off.
25
"Although the Church has a very clear policy against identifying with political groups, it finds the issue of homosexual marriage important enough to take the unusual action of urging Church members to take political action. Members of The Church of Jesus Christ in California were strongly encouraged by Church authorities to contribute what ever they could with respect to time and resources to pass Proposition 22, or the Knight Initiative, which made marriage between a man and a woman the only type of legal marriage."
- from Homosexuality and the Church of Jesus Christ by A. Dean Byrd, copyright 2001
- from Homosexuality and the Church of Jesus Christ by A. Dean Byrd, copyright 2001
26
I'm a gay teen in the good old state of California. Gotta love prop 8, aye? This whole issue is more convoluted than the twisted grey matter of the tarts who thought up this ridiculous ballot measure in the first place. At the very least, seeing all this controversy has made my year entertaining - what more can a voter ask for in an election season? (not rights, evidently)
27
I actually talked to a Mormon missionary yesterday, an "Elder Prophet." When he approached me with his evangelical opening, I told him that I was too furious over the role the Mormon church played in the passage of Prop 8 to have any respect for his institution. It turns out missionaries aren't allowed to watch TV or phone home, so he had only a fuzzy idea of the details--he had the notion, for instance, that Mormons were only a minor contributor to the Yes on 8 campaign. Another thing he was fuzzy on: the phenomenon of intersexed people, which threw a wrench in his convictions that 1) God wants unions of men and women only and 2) all humans are created in God's image (so why would God create intersexed people, unless God has a more fluid interpretation of sex and gender than you do?)
In the end, he apologized if I was offended by the actions of his church, and admitted he wasn't very interested in politics--he just wanted to preach the gospel. I told him I wished his church would do the same and shook his hand.
But as a friend of mine pointed out, the Mormon church is so strictly hierarchical that it is extremely difficult for younger, more liberal members to have any say in the teachings or actions from up above. Like the Catholic church, there is a distinct, delineated line of authority, and insubordination can severely threaten your position in the institution. Standing up to the church from within is probably harder than doing it from outside.
In the end, he apologized if I was offended by the actions of his church, and admitted he wasn't very interested in politics--he just wanted to preach the gospel. I told him I wished his church would do the same and shook his hand.
But as a friend of mine pointed out, the Mormon church is so strictly hierarchical that it is extremely difficult for younger, more liberal members to have any say in the teachings or actions from up above. Like the Catholic church, there is a distinct, delineated line of authority, and insubordination can severely threaten your position in the institution. Standing up to the church from within is probably harder than doing it from outside.
28
"I may not agree with what they say, but I will fight to the death for their right to say it." is a fairly basic United States tenant.
Oh dear me. I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings, but it was Voltaire who said that... Um, yup! The whole French thing rears its ugly head.
The LDS church is working furiously on repairing its image after this whole Prop. 8 debacle. The really didn't see the backlash coming. They have been doing phone surveys and push polling, trying to figure it all out. Did you see that they recently revamped their crazy drinking / bar laws to get with the 20th century? Of course it IS the 21st century now... but they have always been slow. They even had a concert with Vanilla Ice and MC Hammer... ooh get your funky white self down you crazy Mormon kids.
It will take many more years for them to get their shit together.
Oh dear me. I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings, but it was Voltaire who said that... Um, yup! The whole French thing rears its ugly head.
The LDS church is working furiously on repairing its image after this whole Prop. 8 debacle. The really didn't see the backlash coming. They have been doing phone surveys and push polling, trying to figure it all out. Did you see that they recently revamped their crazy drinking / bar laws to get with the 20th century? Of course it IS the 21st century now... but they have always been slow. They even had a concert with Vanilla Ice and MC Hammer... ooh get your funky white self down you crazy Mormon kids.
It will take many more years for them to get their shit together.
29
@27 something tells me that the missionary had a pretty good idea of what was happening at the time (even without listening to the radio or watching TV, it was pretty hard to miss the whole Prop 8 situation--not to mention the contact he would have been in with fellow missionaries/church officials), and simply found it convenient to let a potential convert believe he 'didn't know' what the church was doing and therefore shouldn't have to answer for it.
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