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News & ArtsTuesday, March 10, 2009
Savage Love Savage Love Letter of the Day
Posted by Dan Savage on Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 11:27 AM
I recently had sex with an acquaintance. It was not "accidental," nor was it fueled by too much alcohol. We planned it, we did it, it was fun, and we probably won't do it again. Neither of us is emotionally invested.The problem? He was cheating on his much younger girlfriend (she is twenty, he is thirty-six), and the sex was only passably safe. We manually stimulated each-other with no rubber gloves. We used one condom for over an hour of intercourse with various changes of positions and at least one moment of reduced stiffness. Had we engaged in oral sex I suspect he would not have whipped out a latex barrier (though I could be wrong). This level of safety was acceptable to me; I knew I was taking a very small risk, but thought it was worth it. However, the consequences of the small risk he took could be passed onto his very young girlfriend. And she gets no benefit. The circumstances of our evening suggest that it was not an isolated event for him.
I think I should inform him of your campsite rule, and explain this means that (1) he shouldn't cheat on her and (2) when he does cheat on her, the cheating sex should be excruciatingly safe. No frottage with only a cotton panty barrier. Rubber gloves for manual. Condoms and dental dams for oral. Change of condom with changes in position requiring a withdrawal.
But how do I do this? He's thirty-six: probably won't appreciate a lecture about safer sex. It's unlikely I'll see him for a few months, and when we do there will likely be others around. So I either send him an e-mail with some information, or I invite him out for an awkward cup of coffee. Or maybe I should just stay out of it. What do you think?
Cover Up Mucous Membrane
I'm going to assume that you knew about the girlfriend before you fucked this guy, CUMM, and advise you accordingly: It's a little late to get all ethical and shit about this, isn't it? If you're concerned about her safety—if you're concerned about it now—go get tested for everything, just to make sure you didn't pass anything along to him that he's going to pass along to her. If you're in the clear, so is he and so is she. If you're not, let him know what you got and what he needs to do about it.
And if you're worried about him sleeping with other people—which seems likely—without employing the scrupulous safety precautions that you suddenly feel so strongly about, CUMM, you could send him an email telling him that you had some post-infidelity regrets and concerns, and urge him to consider her safety the next time he cheats on her.
Then butt the fuck out, CUMM—right after you take a solemn vow to contemplate safety and ethics before you fuck someone else's boyfriend, CUMM, and not after.
3
while it's really odd that she doesn't mention whether or not she knew about the girlfriend at the time, I can only read the letter as implying she didn't. Otherwise, she's got a monumentally over-developed ability to rationalize her own dumbass actions.
4
It sounds ridiculously contrived and manipulative. She wants to tell this young woman for her own sake - maliciousness or attention. Sounds like a borderline personality disorder at work.
Her safe sex levels are off the charts too. Unless she or he was oozing, it's overkill.
Her safe sex levels are off the charts too. Unless she or he was oozing, it's overkill.
5
Rubber gloves for manual? Is that really typical "safe sex" practice? It sounds a little excessive to me (maybe it picks up that last 1% of risk, but, it seems like a lot to invest for that 1%). Is there some reason I should be more concerned (or rather, should have been more concerned in my non-monogamous relationship days)?
6
Rubber gloves!? Are there really people who use rubber gloves for manual stimulation (outside of a fetish)? I take it they also don't shake hands or touch doorknobs?
Did anyone else think while reading this that CUMM sounds like one of the least fun people to ever have sex with?
Did anyone else think while reading this that CUMM sounds like one of the least fun people to ever have sex with?
7
Do people seriously use rubber gloves? Is it very likely to catch a disease from "manual stimulation"?
11
"I helped my friend cheat and now I'm worried I may be dirty. So dirty that poor innocent girl will catch it!"
12
Dan - I very much liked your comments except for that part about sending an email. Memorializing infidelity in writing always is a bad idea, I think.
13
@7 I guess it would be possible if you were going back and forth between your own genitals and the other parties genitals, but really you might was well wear gloves when you shake hands.
Aside from maybe putting on a new condom at some point that's about the level of safety I practice.
Aside from maybe putting on a new condom at some point that's about the level of safety I practice.
14
The painstaking detail in which she describes her intercourse (including the milage of the condem) makes me believe she is obsessing over the sex for some other reasons. The ubber safe sex practices?
My theory, the guy more or less fucked her out of pity because they were friends and she hasn't had any a while. So she obsesses about the safety of it all, all the while truely feeling that she wants it to mean something, good (preferably) or bad (at least its emotion). She'll use the guise of "safety" to more or less go bat shit crazy, flip out, and bring destruction to her world AND her casual sex friend (and the younger girlfriend she is jelous of.)
Is she like borderline autistic or something?
My theory, the guy more or less fucked her out of pity because they were friends and she hasn't had any a while. So she obsesses about the safety of it all, all the while truely feeling that she wants it to mean something, good (preferably) or bad (at least its emotion). She'll use the guise of "safety" to more or less go bat shit crazy, flip out, and bring destruction to her world AND her casual sex friend (and the younger girlfriend she is jelous of.)
Is she like borderline autistic or something?
15
If she didn't know about the girlfriend before the sex, she would have made that clearer in the letter, instead of just glossing over it and hoping you wouldn't call her on it. (Note the way she introduces "the problem" while specifically avoiding mentioning how or when she found out about "the problem.")
16
"Change of condom with changes in position requiring a withdrawal."
Can someone explain what the hell this is supposed to do? Keep dust out of your vag? It sounds like a much better idea to just keep the same one.
Can someone explain what the hell this is supposed to do? Keep dust out of your vag? It sounds like a much better idea to just keep the same one.
17
Should have just gotten drunk, then this would have been easier to pretend didn't happen - planned.
But otherwise, it's just scummy.
Period.
But otherwise, it's just scummy.
Period.
18
I have never in my life heard the rule that you're supposed to use a new condom for every position. Was I supposed to know this? I have always used condoms and changed them with every ejaculation, but not for position switches while they're still empty. *Why* would you have to change them then?
20
@16, 18 - I guess if you were to accidentally dip your dick in a can of turpentine, it's only common courtesy to change the condom.
22
Jeez. Is she "afraid" she gave him herpes or something? But really only "afraid" that it could be traced back to her if the cheater passed it on to his girlfriend?
I'm hoping the 20-year-old girlfriend is the most mature and out of the three here... if not, I'd be a whole lot more worried about what I'd pick up from/through having sex with the boyfriend than what I'd pass along. Unless I knew I had herpes or AIDS or something.
I'm hoping the 20-year-old girlfriend is the most mature and out of the three here... if not, I'd be a whole lot more worried about what I'd pick up from/through having sex with the boyfriend than what I'd pass along. Unless I knew I had herpes or AIDS or something.
23
an hour? who has that kind of patience? am i crazy, or is that about 30 minutes longer than what is officially a long time to be rubbing things together?
25
I never heard of the rubber gloves, or the need to change the condom with every position that uses the same orifice.
26
Dan, help us out here? In your responce, you never said anything to help set the record straight on what an acceptable level of safe sex is?
I mean, do we have to invest in full body latex suits? High pressure showers before and after sex?
I mean, do we have to invest in full body latex suits? High pressure showers before and after sex?
27
If she's going to flip out and get tested for everything (which would be a way to continue being neurotic about safe sex without involving the second or third parties), she should feel happy knowing that to be REALLY REALLY safe she should get tested AGAIN in three months just to be SUPER DUPER sure there weren't any herpes on his ungloved finger or crawling around from the inside to the outside of the condom. You know. Like they do.
28
I keep my hands in mason jars of my own urine whenever I shake hands. Can't be too safe these days.
20's too young for 36, anyways. Half plus seven.
20's too young for 36, anyways. Half plus seven.
29
The desire to cover most of one's body in latex or rubber during sexual activity is really more of a fetish, isn't it?
32
This chick is definitely chatty. Why the story? Why is she even asking for advice? Why not just find the guy and say, "hey, since you have a girlfriend but also fool around on the side, you should probably be extra safe, m'kay?"
33
I'm remembering the scene in Animal House where Sorority Chick, in a convertible with hands out of sight, is obviously jerking off ROTC Guy while he raves about how he's gonna get Our Hero. She says "Isn't it supposed to be harder than this?" and shortly after raises her hands into view while pulling off a rubber glove.
34
I feel like I know someone who could have been in this situation, it's only karma because if this is who I think it is the 20 something in question has been sleeping around too.
However Seattle's a big place, how many 36 year olds are dating twenty somethings? Either way do yourself a favor and get tested.
Oh and the rubber gloves and shit? If you're so afraid to touch my dick that you feel like you need to wear rubber gloves get the fuck out of my apartment. I understand condoms but are you really so worried about me you don't even want to touch me? It makes me feel like you think I'm dirty, I'm a responsible adult and I expect the same from you, people who want this kind of protection make me feel like they did something to deserve it, so whatever your fucked up reason just get to the door, after I bang your brains out.
However Seattle's a big place, how many 36 year olds are dating twenty somethings? Either way do yourself a favor and get tested.
Oh and the rubber gloves and shit? If you're so afraid to touch my dick that you feel like you need to wear rubber gloves get the fuck out of my apartment. I understand condoms but are you really so worried about me you don't even want to touch me? It makes me feel like you think I'm dirty, I'm a responsible adult and I expect the same from you, people who want this kind of protection make me feel like they did something to deserve it, so whatever your fucked up reason just get to the door, after I bang your brains out.
35
Dan, she wants your permission to brag to the girlfriend that she kicked her boyfriend's feet out from under him. And she sounds like she'd get off on a full post-coital Silkwood shower with the brushes and everything.
36
@34,
Since when is Savage Love Seattle-centric? I assumed Dan gets letters from all over the country.
Anyway, a letter like this might be a good reminder that, if you're going to cheat, be sure to do it safely (although not necessarily to the dental dam, rubber gloves level of safety). While infidelity may be forgivable, putting a partner at risk of STDs is not.
Since when is Savage Love Seattle-centric? I assumed Dan gets letters from all over the country.
Anyway, a letter like this might be a good reminder that, if you're going to cheat, be sure to do it safely (although not necessarily to the dental dam, rubber gloves level of safety). While infidelity may be forgivable, putting a partner at risk of STDs is not.
37
@35 for the insightful win.
Dan should realize the technical parts are a cover for the emotional actions and address the actions directly, not fall for the distractions.
Dan should realize the technical parts are a cover for the emotional actions and address the actions directly, not fall for the distractions.
38
Were they having sex or modeling strange European fashions? Jeez louise, get a grip. If you have to go thru all this bull, why bother? You both sound icky.
39
i like dan's response (but am also curious about the over-the-top "safe" practices).
she seems like she's mad at him for "cheating" and being "unsafe" when she's probably mad at herself? if they were friends and talked about it ahead of time, perhaps he was "safer" with her because of it?
but mainly, yeah, she missed her chance to be safe, and apart from mentioned it at the time, or mentioning it the next time, she needs to let it go. she wasn't thinking about the GF before, so don't pretend you suddenly care now.
she should get herself tested, and let him know only if any result is positive. she should not send an email, though, as emails sometimes get read by other people.
she seems like she's mad at him for "cheating" and being "unsafe" when she's probably mad at herself? if they were friends and talked about it ahead of time, perhaps he was "safer" with her because of it?
but mainly, yeah, she missed her chance to be safe, and apart from mentioned it at the time, or mentioning it the next time, she needs to let it go. she wasn't thinking about the GF before, so don't pretend you suddenly care now.
she should get herself tested, and let him know only if any result is positive. she should not send an email, though, as emails sometimes get read by other people.
40
Talk about wanting super safety. She sounds like me when I was 11. I had OCD and naivety to blame though, what's her excuse. Someone should buy her a full body condom as a joke. A few companies sell them, normally around Halloween as a joke.
41
To all the people saying she wants to tell the girlfriend-- she never says that, does she? She says she's thinking of talking to the guy, not the girlfriend.
42
Eh ... but vitaminwater, I get the impression she still wants to be a significant part of his life.
43
An hour for sex isn't excessive if you're having fun, but this chick doesn't sound like much fun, especially since 45 minutes of that hour was spent sheathing and unsheathing various parts of the body in latex and enough spermicide to wipe out Mumbai...
She really needs to try fucking a bottle of Purelle...I think she'd find it more satisfying.
She really needs to try fucking a bottle of Purelle...I think she'd find it more satisfying.
44
I wish the girl who had sex with my ex-boyfriend was that freakish about being extra safe. She gave him herpes which he passed on to me. People joke about cheating and STDs a lot, but can I just say IT REALLY SUCKS! :( It's bad enough he cheated on me, but this is something I will have to deal with for the rest of my life. And yes, it has seriously impacted my sex life. People like Dan can be really cool about trying to get the word out how common it is, it's not the end of the world, etc, but in reality it freaks most people out and they'd prefer to steer clear.
45
Way to come down on the person who's not even in the relationship, guys. As horrific as this woman seems the boyfriend is worse. Lowlife piece of shit.
46
Karey,
I had premeditated sex with someone who was in a relationship. I did it out of pity, because her bf was in Thailand having sexual fantasies fullfilled. Well out of pity, and I hadn't gotten any in like 9 months ... and was well ... I guess she convinced me it was a good thing to get out of celebacy.
Worst mistake of my life, and it wasn't that I enabled her to cheat. It was the fact that I had sex that I didn't really want in the first place. Lesson learned ... but more importantly, relationships aren't all created equal, and we can't go around worshiping every relationship, because it is fucking sacred. I get the feeling, because it was a planned hook up. Than none of the parties involved has a sacred relationship.
I had premeditated sex with someone who was in a relationship. I did it out of pity, because her bf was in Thailand having sexual fantasies fullfilled. Well out of pity, and I hadn't gotten any in like 9 months ... and was well ... I guess she convinced me it was a good thing to get out of celebacy.
Worst mistake of my life, and it wasn't that I enabled her to cheat. It was the fact that I had sex that I didn't really want in the first place. Lesson learned ... but more importantly, relationships aren't all created equal, and we can't go around worshiping every relationship, because it is fucking sacred. I get the feeling, because it was a planned hook up. Than none of the parties involved has a sacred relationship.
48
Oh. Oh my god.
I am either the young girlfriend (now EX-girlfriend, thanks much) referred to in this letter, or some poor girl is/was in exactly the same position with exactly the same sorts of people I was in (with) fairly recently. Seriously everything - the age difference, the "we had sex once and it was planned, etc" scenario, the woman's obsession with safe sex (except apparently when she's HAVING sex with someone who is sexually active with other people at the time...) are all basically dead on.
I'm inclined to believe it is one big coincidence, but speaking as someone who was once the "innocent" young woman in basically exactly this situation, I can say with what I consider to be a certain amount of authority that Dan's response is right on, and this woman IS in fact a ridiculous person who needs to butt out. In my situation, she certainly DID know about me - in fact, the only person who WASN'T fully informed and consenting to the whole thing was me. Imagine my hurt and dismay when I put the pieces together for myself, MONTHS after the whole thing took place.
I was lucky in that I escaped without any STI's, but yeah, you know, there's a time and a place for safe and ethical sex and it's WHEN YOU'RE FUCKING A PERSON, not after you are done with them and it occurs to you that maybe you've just left a big mess that some poor kid is going to have to deal with. CUMM - AND the guy she fucked - need to grow the fuck up. And when you're being told to grow up by a jilted kid who's over a decade younger than you, you know you've got a fucking problem. Seriously.
I am either the young girlfriend (now EX-girlfriend, thanks much) referred to in this letter, or some poor girl is/was in exactly the same position with exactly the same sorts of people I was in (with) fairly recently. Seriously everything - the age difference, the "we had sex once and it was planned, etc" scenario, the woman's obsession with safe sex (except apparently when she's HAVING sex with someone who is sexually active with other people at the time...) are all basically dead on.
I'm inclined to believe it is one big coincidence, but speaking as someone who was once the "innocent" young woman in basically exactly this situation, I can say with what I consider to be a certain amount of authority that Dan's response is right on, and this woman IS in fact a ridiculous person who needs to butt out. In my situation, she certainly DID know about me - in fact, the only person who WASN'T fully informed and consenting to the whole thing was me. Imagine my hurt and dismay when I put the pieces together for myself, MONTHS after the whole thing took place.
I was lucky in that I escaped without any STI's, but yeah, you know, there's a time and a place for safe and ethical sex and it's WHEN YOU'RE FUCKING A PERSON, not after you are done with them and it occurs to you that maybe you've just left a big mess that some poor kid is going to have to deal with. CUMM - AND the guy she fucked - need to grow the fuck up. And when you're being told to grow up by a jilted kid who's over a decade younger than you, you know you've got a fucking problem. Seriously.
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