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News & ArtsTuesday, March 10, 2009
Books Dear Simon and Schuster,
Posted by Paul Constant on Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 4:42 PM
We just got a copy of Heather B. Armstrong's motherhood memoir, It Sucked and Then I Cried: How I Had a Baby, a Breakdown, and a Much Needed Margarita in the mail. It's one of your your newest releases. Thanks for thinking of us!
However, your title is missing a much-needed hyphen. The title, of course, is on the cover of the book, which is pretty egregious, but it's also in all the press materials and on every internet listing of the book under the sun. How did you manage to do that?
A little below this sentence, you'll see what happens when I type "much needed" into a Word document without a hyphen:
Note the wavy green line that indicates a grammar malfunction. Were no Word documents involved in the making of this book? Or was everything just cut and pasted from the author's blog directly into a template and then printed?
Look, Simon and Schuster: We all make mistakes. Lord knows I have made more than my share of enormous grammar gaffes (or, as I like to refer to them, "Harry Knowleses") on Slog and in the print edition of The Stranger. I'm honestly not a grammar snob. But, please, I hope you'll add the hyphen when you release the paperback edition of this book. That hyphen between "much" and "needed" is important and it looks good, too. The paperback won't be out for a year, but I really hope you'll take this into consideration. Thanks for your time.
(heart,)
Paul Bobby
2
Sorry, too lazy to look for a cite on this at the moment, but I seem to remember coming across an article last year on the scaling back on hyphenations such as the one you call for.
I don't have an opinion on this either way, and I don't know who gets together and decides to put out a hit on the poor little hyphen, but you may be looking at the application of someone's new rules of style rather than an inadvertent omission.
I don't have an opinion on this either way, and I don't know who gets together and decides to put out a hit on the poor little hyphen, but you may be looking at the application of someone's new rules of style rather than an inadvertent omission.
3
The hyphen would look weird. I think they made the right call. This reads as it is meant to sound. There are times when proper grammar and cover design or headlines are not expected to meet.
7
Actually, I was taught that a hyphen there is optional. I like putting them in, but it's not a must. Kind of like the comma before "and/or" when you're ending a list. This, that and the other. This, that, and the other. When it is necessary is when you say, "The margarita was much-needed." But who knows. They change these rules all the times, the fickle editors and their ilk.
11
oh - how - snobby - and - these - are - not - hyphens- but - dashes
the hyphen is largely obsolete
but the dash is growing in use for on line posts
Middle Stage Editor - before the gunklie final proofers
the hyphen is largely obsolete
but the dash is growing in use for on line posts
Middle Stage Editor - before the gunklie final proofers
12
That hyphen is necessary to form a compound to modify vacation; you can take a "needed vacation," but there is no way you can take a "much vacation."
Also, @7, the comma before "and" or "or" in a list, which is known as a serial comma, depends on the editorial style. The serial comma is either required (Chicago) or shunned (AP), but is not optional.
And what @8 said.
Also, @7, the comma before "and" or "or" in a list, which is known as a serial comma, depends on the editorial style. The serial comma is either required (Chicago) or shunned (AP), but is not optional.
And what @8 said.
14
Rick's retarded comment makes me want to tear apart my copy of The Copyeditor's Handbook and shove the spiral binding up his ass.
I am pretty sure that's kind of an extreme reaction.
I am pretty sure that's kind of an extreme reaction.
16
Anyone who dares to suggest that the cover is acceptable IN ANY CAPACITY without a hyphen needs to take a good, hard look down the barrel of a gun.
Get a fucking education, learn your fucking language and how to fucking write it. Go ahead, hit me with a "grammr nazi LOL," but someday I'll be reading your job application and I'll laugh in your ignorant fucking face.
Get a fucking education, learn your fucking language and how to fucking write it. Go ahead, hit me with a "grammr nazi LOL," but someday I'll be reading your job application and I'll laugh in your ignorant fucking face.
17
No, I think it's spot on, Lily, and I wish you'd post more. We used to get this kind of thing from Amy Kate, but she's gone.
18
one time i let a prick like that fix all the pissant mistakes on my resume and next thing you know this other total prick just like him fucking hired me. god that job sucked. never again.
19
In defense of the publisher, nobody who takes their language seriously should pay any attention to the Goddamned "grammar check" in Word. I regularly confound the program with completely legitimate constructions. Granted, my style leans toward somewhat ungainly...
20
Thanks, Fnarf. I didn't even know I commented enough for you high-volume posters to notice. :)
And Will, I totally love the em-dash.
Apologies to both of you for including you in the same post.
And Will, I totally love the em-dash.
Apologies to both of you for including you in the same post.
21
If "Rick" in #8 is the same Rick who copy-edits the Seattle Gay News, years of word-butchering mystery have just been cleared away....
25
The hyphen in the title is not optional. But, then again, I absolutely detest it when there is no comma before "and" in a list of things, particularly when each list item consists of multiple words. So, I always tend to err on the side of more punctuation rather than less.
And, I'm a flagrant abuser of the em-dash. It is my most favoritest of all the punctuations.
And, I'm a flagrant abuser of the em-dash. It is my most favoritest of all the punctuations.
26
I saw this one a while back. Someone wrote the sentence "Having software to track who was served what and when is a real life saver, but you'll also need information on the eligibility status of each family" into Word, and Word's green squiggle suggested replacing "you'll" with "is'll".
Yup, "is'll".
Try it yourself. Works in Word 2003, maybe not in 2007.
Yup, "is'll".
Try it yourself. Works in Word 2003, maybe not in 2007.
27
you are all hitler. hitler! fuck you german nazi gestapo hitlers. i detest each of you but does that mean i can have you elimnated? not yet i'm not the furhur. so what if you detest hyphens or whatever nobody elected you god of everything fuck. remind me to never read this shit any more
29
You make a powerful case, Batin', but I'm going to continue to support English as the official language of Slog.
30
I think they should have cut the entire all-caps suckfest below the embroidered bit. It Sucked and Then I Cried is a nice enough little sentence on its own, but then they hit you with some "I spilled mojito on my baby seat in the back of my Subaru Outback OMG LOL hubby is gonna take away my Tivo" bullshit. A hyphen is the least of this jacket's issues.
31
@27: Ooh, that reminds me of one of my favourite pet peeves! Why are most English-speaking editors so fucking arrogant, ignorant and lazy that they simply omit accents from European names and words? Accents are there for a reason -- pronunciation, etymology etc. And any half-decent software can easily cope with them these days.
In the case of "Führer", an acceptable English transliteration is "Fuehrer".
In the case of "Führer", an acceptable English transliteration is "Fuehrer".
33
What lily said.
On the other hand, I don't think the missing hyphen is this book's biggest problem. If you know what I mean.
On the other hand, I don't think the missing hyphen is this book's biggest problem. If you know what I mean.
35
@11 you are making hyphens. A hyphen is a dash, but not all dashes are hyphens?
- dash / hyphen
– en dash
I'd make an Em Dash here, but Safari / The Stranger won't let me. I won't get all lead-type technical on you with the precise definition, but generally the em dash is twice the length of the en dash.
As long as I've gone this far, the en dash is set with full spaces on either side. The em dash generally without, though I like to use a hair space on each side.
So there, motherfuckers.
- dash / hyphen
– en dash
I'd make an Em Dash here, but Safari / The Stranger won't let me. I won't get all lead-type technical on you with the precise definition, but generally the em dash is twice the length of the en dash.
As long as I've gone this far, the en dash is set with full spaces on either side. The em dash generally without, though I like to use a hair space on each side.
So there, motherfuckers.
36
@34 / lily, yes, if you do not have an umlauted vowel to hand (this might have been a literal supply/demand problem in the lead type days; nowadays, many people don't know the special keystroke sequences to make umlauted vowels), it is conventional and acceptable to swap an "e" after the vowel in question. This has been the convention for a good long time, possibly hundreds of years.
Göttingen = Goettingen
Führer = Fuehrer
German speakers accept these substitutions as seamlessly as they differentiate between "ß" and "ss.'
Göttingen = Goettingen
Führer = Fuehrer
German speakers accept these substitutions as seamlessly as they differentiate between "ß" and "ss.'
37
@lily: P.S., it's kind of impossible to argue these points on the internet without coming off like a colossal jerk -- I love that you care about the fucking umlauts and I would totally buy you a drink except that I am a) pretty well into the gin gimlets already and b) 800 miles away.
Cheers.
Cheers.
38
@ My drunk, pedantic friend in SF, I don't think you're any more of a jerk than I am. Besides, I rather like your brand of pedantic jerkdom!
I'm going to talk to my German boss's boss about the umlauts vs. e thing when I see him tomorrow, though. I might even spam my writer/editors' list about what is acceptable in International English documentation. Because I am a fucking nerd.
Have another gimlet for me! :)
I'm going to talk to my German boss's boss about the umlauts vs. e thing when I see him tomorrow, though. I might even spam my writer/editors' list about what is acceptable in International English documentation. Because I am a fucking nerd.
Have another gimlet for me! :)
40
Dooce is the worst thing that ever happened to the internet. By unleashing a torrent of boring-ass lady/mommy-bloggers on the universe she is helping clog the tubes. I really wish The Stranger would send someone to BlogHer '09 and give an insider view to the "Oprah's Vajayjay" seminars.
I hope that my hyphens are acceptable. I love you all.
I hope that my hyphens are acceptable. I love you all.
41
If you don't want to read it, Paul, bring it to Slog Happy and I'll happily take it off your hands (and then write a snarky bitchfest of a book report, of course).
43
@37, 38: Although I'm a gay Anglo boy, I'm starting to feel a lot like Yenta the Matchmaker! You crazy kids have fun!
46
CMS 14th ed. 6.38 "For some years now, the trend in spelling compound words has been away from the use of hyphens. There seems to be a tendency to spell compounds solid as soon as acceptance warrants their being considered permanent compounds, and otherwise to spell them open. This is a trend, not a rule, but it is sometimes helpful, when deciding how to spell some new combination, to remember that the trend exists."
Open means no hyphen, Paul. It's a judgment call, and the copyeditor in this case chose to go open, probably because you are the only person in the world who might think that an open compound here results in confusion. You guys in the newspaper business tend not to use The Chicago Manual of Style, but those in the book business use it and understand it. Leave grammar on book titles to professionals.
Open means no hyphen, Paul. It's a judgment call, and the copyeditor in this case chose to go open, probably because you are the only person in the world who might think that an open compound here results in confusion. You guys in the newspaper business tend not to use The Chicago Manual of Style, but those in the book business use it and understand it. Leave grammar on book titles to professionals.
47
Em dashes and en dashes have nothing to do with this issue. Em dashes are used to punctuate and interjection or an aside. En dashes are used to signify a span of time, such as years. Thanks for learning how to use your dashes!
48
1. Anyone who looks to Bill Gates for grammar advice lacks sound judgement (Brit-o-spelling).
2. Much is an adverb, you twits. It doesn't need a hyphen. From wikipedia: Hyphens should not normally be used in adverb–adjective modifiers such as wholly owned subsidiary and quickly moving vehicle (because the adverbs clearly modify the adjectives; "quickly" does not apply to "vehicle" as "quickly vehicle" would be meaningless). Similarly, "I'd like to take a much vacation" would be meaningless. I'd like to give you guys a richly-deserved beating.
3. The true correct phrasing here is "I'd like to take a muchly needed vacation."
2. Much is an adverb, you twits. It doesn't need a hyphen. From wikipedia: Hyphens should not normally be used in adverb–adjective modifiers such as wholly owned subsidiary and quickly moving vehicle (because the adverbs clearly modify the adjectives; "quickly" does not apply to "vehicle" as "quickly vehicle" would be meaningless). Similarly, "I'd like to take a much vacation" would be meaningless. I'd like to give you guys a richly-deserved beating.
3. The true correct phrasing here is "I'd like to take a muchly needed vacation."
49
@31: You have a case here. The one exception I can think of is the macron. Most programs don't include characters with macrons at all.
50
I want the book if you're too distracted by the cover to read it! Or- go ask her yourself- she'll be at Third Place books March 31st! ;-)
51
oh come on now.
It's a title.
It could have perfectly misspelled words in it and STILL be the correct title.
It's a title.
It could have perfectly misspelled words in it and STILL be the correct title.
52
@46: "much needed," hyphenated or not, is not a compound word. The passage you quote is irrelevant.
@48: I suspect you are being facetious. But, just in case, The Longman Handbook for Readers and Writers, which is a fairly elementary college textbook, says: "When you ask two or more words to work as a single modifier and you place them beforea noun, hyphenate them." And, of course, "much" is a perfectly good adverb without the -ly, at least according to the OED.
@48: I suspect you are being facetious. But, just in case, The Longman Handbook for Readers and Writers, which is a fairly elementary college textbook, says: "When you ask two or more words to work as a single modifier and you place them beforea noun, hyphenate them." And, of course, "much" is a perfectly good adverb without the -ly, at least according to the OED.
54
@48 is right. Paul is wrong. (But then, so were Strunk and White, who at the time excused hyphenation from adverb/adjective combos only when the adverb ends in -ly. There's no real logic in that distinction, though.)
The real question: What would DFW do?
The real question: What would DFW do?
55
CMOS 7.90: "adverb not ending in ly + participle or adjective: a much-loved woman, she was much loved, a very well-read child, little-understood rules, a too-easy answer, the best-known author, the highest-ranking officer, the worst-paid job, a lesser-paid colleague, the least skilled workers, the most efficient method. (Hyphenated before but not after a noun; compounds with most and least usually open.)"
Does anyone really want to argue that "much-loved," which CMOS explicitly recommends, is essentially different from the "much[-]needed" on this book cover?
Does anyone really want to argue that "much-loved," which CMOS explicitly recommends, is essentially different from the "much[-]needed" on this book cover?
56
@30 has the clue.
I have been the victim of this "aspect" of Word at work on what was otherwise a very handsome memo with some ALL CAPS YELLING.
Word ignores spelling and grammar in all caps. (as far as I know, I don't have it at home.)
I have been the victim of this "aspect" of Word at work on what was otherwise a very handsome memo with some ALL CAPS YELLING.
Word ignores spelling and grammar in all caps. (as far as I know, I don't have it at home.)
57
bc: Your opinion is valid but a case could be made for "much needed" as a compound word. 6:38 is controversial and annoying but it is there nonetheless. One copyeditor's compound word is another copyeditor's word modified by an adjective. "Much needed" could be less open to confusion than "much loved." I stand by my opinion that the hyphen in this case is a judgement call. That said, the safer course would have been to include the hyphen. Does anyone have access to Simon and Schuster's style guide? The only way to determine for sure that the omitted hyphen is an error would be if the house style guide contained a ruling for such cases.
http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/GRAMMAR/c…
http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/GRAMMAR/c…
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