Slog
News & ArtsFriday, March 6, 2009
Life Early Morning Deep Thought
Posted by Dan Savage on Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 6:22 AM
Civility requires me to patronize businesses owned by people who finance uncivil campaigns that succeed in stripping me of my civil rights.
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Civility requires no such thing. Convenience, perhaps. There are supportive business owners everywhere (with the possible exception of Utah)
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Civility does not require us to patronize those businesses. We have every right to take our business elsewhere, we should just try to refrain from flipping them off as we walk by. We can disagree with the causes they choose to invest their money in, and in our disagreement we can choose to invest our money in businesses that support causes we believe in. Money talks, and we have the right to say where it speaks.
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Civility and maturity suggests that we all interact with people who disagree with us. If everyone reacts like Dan then the nation will split itself into economic blocks; what if everyone who opposes gay marriage (a majority in pretty much all states) declined to patronize any business that employees any homosexuals?
And then antiabortionist won't do business with those who favor abortion. And so on.
It would be chaotic and expensive economically.
Our nation has been mature enough over the centuries to avoid political and economic tribalization; and is better for it.
By interacting and communicating we eventually reach concensus and make social progress.
And then antiabortionist won't do business with those who favor abortion. And so on.
It would be chaotic and expensive economically.
Our nation has been mature enough over the centuries to avoid political and economic tribalization; and is better for it.
By interacting and communicating we eventually reach concensus and make social progress.
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Instead of trying to force the ice cream shop owner on the NPR story out of business what if every patron who supported gay marriage nicely made a point of mentioning that and how sad they were that he did not? I bet that would be more likely to make him reconsider his position.
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Let's hear it for incivility then. There's a quote from Edgar Howe that I particularly like: Instead of loving your enemies, treat your friends a little better.
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@10 Highly unlikely. I know how much I dislike "christians" coming up to me to remind me of how much God hates me and that I better change. I do not consider their viewpoint and thank them for the information--- I want them to GO AWAY. If they have any conviction at all in their own beliefs then I would expect they would think the same thing if I did it to them.
I am old enough to realize that I have only 20 years left to enjoy myself. I am not interested in waiting around for people to grant me peace and security. I say ignore them in daily life's activities and get on with life.
I am old enough to realize that I have only 20 years left to enjoy myself. I am not interested in waiting around for people to grant me peace and security. I say ignore them in daily life's activities and get on with life.
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Choosing not to patronize a business is one thing. Actively picketing and harassing it's owners and those that do want to patronize it is another.
What about that doesn't Mr.Savage understand?
What about that doesn't Mr.Savage understand?
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Choosing not to be in a gay marriage is one thing. Actively opposing and legislating against my gay marriage and others who do want to marry is another.
What about that doesn't Troll understand?
What about that doesn't Troll understand?
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burn 'em out - they use paper which comes from pulp wood, tree killers
shout at their children cause their parents are evil
should work, a plan?
shout at their children cause their parents are evil
should work, a plan?
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Hey, Troll is good this morning.
Troll understands all.
It is a beautiful day (but then, they all are)
Hey, Troll is good this morning.
Troll understands all.
It is a beautiful day (but then, they all are)
22
oh, is Dan drinking a coke at a Mariott he paid for with his american express card? And Marie Osmond is on tee-vee attempting to sell him on wieght loss?
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just like i frequent the slog and pick up a copy of the stranger each week, even tho paul constant's hogwash is everywhere....
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@16 at first i thought you were just really naive and/or stupid. then i thought maybe you were evil.
now i am pretty sure, and i say this with utter sincerity, that you should seek the help of a therapist because i've rarely seen such a bad case of someone who identifies and sympathizes so strongly with violent abusers against those they abuse. good luck.
now i am pretty sure, and i say this with utter sincerity, that you should seek the help of a therapist because i've rarely seen such a bad case of someone who identifies and sympathizes so strongly with violent abusers against those they abuse. good luck.
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It is important and productive to let these anti-human rights activists or contributors know why we are taking our business elsewhere. It's a good "teaching moment" for them. But I don't recommend engaging them in an all out argument...(though I did get into it with a couple of Mormonic "missionaries" recently and it was more than a little gratifying... we can't just ignore lies, hate and covert political games disguised as religious practice.
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"Choosing not to patronize a business is one thing. Actively picketing and harassing it's owners and those that do want to patronize it is another."
And they're both part of a well balanced breakfast!
And they're both part of a well balanced breakfast!
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@8 - That seems like an improbable scenario. Economic boycotts involve work, so they don't happen very often on a large scale. It's pretty rare that people care enough about an issue to do the research required to figure out which businesses are owned by people holding a certain opinion on a topic (e.g., pro-choice, anti-abortion).
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You have heard that it was said, "You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy."
But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?
Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect
But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?
Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect
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Civility has nothing to do with it. Civility would require them to let you live your life, WITH full civil rights.
If they have religious objections to gay marriage, fine. Lots of religious folks have religious objections to godless city-hall weddings, and lots of religious folks don't even consider religiously-married folks of other religions to be married. Fine. Whatever. Fuck all of 'em.
If they have religious objections to gay marriage, fine. Lots of religious folks have religious objections to godless city-hall weddings, and lots of religious folks don't even consider religiously-married folks of other religions to be married. Fine. Whatever. Fuck all of 'em.
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Betting that Dan is at a Marriott that someone else arranged... so rather than tell that person they are an idiot for doing it, he is kind enough to stuff down his anger and wake up in Mormon Land
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@13, RIGHT ON.
Instead of loving your enemies, treat your friends a little better.
BAck in the day, we would follow Holly Near's advice and be "peaceful angry people, singing, singing for our lives."
Nowadays? FUCK that shit.
Instead of loving your enemies, treat your friends a little better.
BAck in the day, we would follow Holly Near's advice and be "peaceful angry people, singing, singing for our lives."
Nowadays? FUCK that shit.
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No, Dan, it does not. It's called boycotting. Civility only "requires" that you not become violent or aggressive. Circumstances beyond your control may require you to patronize businesses owned by anti-gay rights businesses, but to say that civility requires it is disingenuous at best, a cop-out at worst.
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@8 - I think your approach is nice in theory, but in reality it amounts to giving a business your money so that said business can use it against you politically. It ultimately amonts to us conspiring with people who really are out to get us. It's exactly what Urban Outfitters does to it's clientele - smart business, but completely revolting.
An individual's ability (and right) to "vote with their dollars" is one of the few meaningful responses to organized attacks on civil rights left, and one that's not utilized very much anymore. I say more of it.
People do need to learn how to coexist in society. But if a particular group flat out won't accept or recognize the rights of another group, then there is no "middle ground" to be reached.
An individual's ability (and right) to "vote with their dollars" is one of the few meaningful responses to organized attacks on civil rights left, and one that's not utilized very much anymore. I say more of it.
People do need to learn how to coexist in society. But if a particular group flat out won't accept or recognize the rights of another group, then there is no "middle ground" to be reached.
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@16: A member of my church was concerned about a bookstore that was selling rape fantasy books and asked what kind of law could be passed to stop it. I told him that those books were protected by the First Amendment, but that he and his friends should stand peacefully on the sidewalk outside the store and protest the sale of books that glorified rape.
It every American's right, and some would say duty, to protest peacefully. The sidewalks are a public forum.
It every American's right, and some would say duty, to protest peacefully. The sidewalks are a public forum.
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Those of us who live in So. Utah but don't wear magic underpants either shop online or drive a bit further to shop in Arizona. I only spend money in Utah (ie, LDS) businesses if I have to.
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I decided to quit reading a certain comic book after I learned the author was a radical Zionist, who said on a blog that killing Palestinian children was just killing future terrorists.
So, after I found this out, I wrote I could no longer support his work.
Within minutes -- I was accused of censorship, told I couldn't distinguish fantasy from reality, and the author himself said he thought it was small-minded to not be able to support someone you disagree with.
Laughing at kid's deaths or supporting a radical anti-gay agenda isn't acceptable. We live in a marketplace with a plethora of choices. Every day we to choose to buy organic or local or American. This is no different. Voting with our dollars is one of the few powerful political options we have left.
So, after I found this out, I wrote I could no longer support his work.
Within minutes -- I was accused of censorship, told I couldn't distinguish fantasy from reality, and the author himself said he thought it was small-minded to not be able to support someone you disagree with.
Laughing at kid's deaths or supporting a radical anti-gay agenda isn't acceptable. We live in a marketplace with a plethora of choices. Every day we to choose to buy organic or local or American. This is no different. Voting with our dollars is one of the few powerful political options we have left.
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