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News & ArtsWednesday, February 25, 2009
Politics / Sex / Religion That Was Then
Posted by Dan Savage on Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 8:43 AM
Remember when we weren't supposed to criticize Bristol Palin? Remember when we weren't allowed to discuss Bristol's decision to have premarital sex in light of her mother's position on abstinence? Remember when we weren't allowed to point out that Bristol's decision to keep her baby—celebrated on the right—was meaningless in the absence of some alternate option for Miss Palin? Some other choice? Remember when we weren't allowed to debate Bristol's private life, her decisions, and her opinions, because she was a young women, she wasn't her mother, she wasn't running for public office, and we should respect her privacy—something her mother and her political allies aren't prepared to do for anyone else—and blah de blah blah?
Well, that was before Bristol described abstinence as "not realistic at all"—and not just with her actions, but with her words. Now abstinence groups are attacking Bristol for suggesting that, gee, expecting teenagers to abstain from sex until marriage—and teaching them nothing about birth control—isn't terribly realistic. (Via Kos.)
1
Dan your hatred for her Mom is one thing but politicizing this kid just makes you look pathetic.
You've got a son. Is he fair game for anyone to criticize when they don't agree with you? I certainly hope not. It's classless and makes the person doing this look small.
Seriously, you sound like a child when ranting like this, be a better human being.
You've got a son. Is he fair game for anyone to criticize when they don't agree with you? I certainly hope not. It's classless and makes the person doing this look small.
Seriously, you sound like a child when ranting like this, be a better human being.
2
paul, dan is not disagreeing with bristol palin. he AGREES with her. he's pointing out the hypocrisy of the right, not attacking bristol. i honestly don't know what you're on about.
3
Good for Bristol for being honest. In the CNN clip, note Gov. Palin's use of the passive voice when she says, "...it happened..." to Bristol.
4
Slog, wake up. Locke was just on TV with Obama. His entree on national scene. He told his immigrant story we've heard here about 1,000,000 times ("it took us 100 years to move that one mile") and thanked everyone in his family including naming his kids, but had no content or policy or vision or plans about, you know, commerce. Impression: unready, and amateurish. .
7
@ #1, I guess the way that works is that Sarah Palin is allowed to use her family as props when running for office, but nobody else can be critical in any way. I think this was in part the point of Dan's post in the first place.
8
Dan, while I agree with your sentiment, I think you're ever-so-slightly off on this one. She's fair game now that she PUT HERSELF in the spotlight by doing the interview and answering the question. There's a difference between criticizing "Bristol Palin" and "Sarah Palin's daughter."
9
Hey 8, did you not follow the campaign? Candidates and their families are all fair game. It's part of the system in US elections. It's too bad, since I think it's cheap and tacky, but when you run on a platform of "moral values" (abstinence before marriage, etc.) and have a child who goes against the grain on this it should be fair to at least mention it, if nothing else then to point out the hypocrisy of Palin's position.
10
@ all...
Dan's posts are not supporting Bristol Palin. They are using Bristol Palins words to mock her Mom and perpetuate his own soap box issue.
Does that make it right to seek out the child's opinion? Report on any sound bite you can grab? In my mind, no, the kid is just that: a kid.
Children have every right to grow up, make their own mistakes, and not be showered under a spotlight of gossip and innuendo.
So does Bristol Palin.
Believe me, I think her Mom's nothing but a punchline and clearly from the attention she's grabbing under her own daughter's pregnancy.. a pretty shitty Mom at that.
So, to answer the question: What am I about?
Journalistic integrity? Having an expectation someone whose made his name in publishing act like an adult, not a teenager?
Dan's posts are not supporting Bristol Palin. They are using Bristol Palins words to mock her Mom and perpetuate his own soap box issue.
Does that make it right to seek out the child's opinion? Report on any sound bite you can grab? In my mind, no, the kid is just that: a kid.
Children have every right to grow up, make their own mistakes, and not be showered under a spotlight of gossip and innuendo.
So does Bristol Palin.
Believe me, I think her Mom's nothing but a punchline and clearly from the attention she's grabbing under her own daughter's pregnancy.. a pretty shitty Mom at that.
So, to answer the question: What am I about?
Journalistic integrity? Having an expectation someone whose made his name in publishing act like an adult, not a teenager?
12
Paul in Ballard: no, "the kid" isn't a kid. She's 18 now, which is why she can do an interview her mom doesn't approve of.
13
Just stop, Paul...your argument makes no sense. Have you read the link that Dan provided? If you haven't, you should. If you have, read it again and concentrate this time.
14
@ 11, stop living in the past. Kids get pregnant. It's a major health issue and it's politically loaded. The Palins weren't immune to it, which made it a legitimate topic for conversation and debate - even more so now that Bristol herself has entered the debate.
And, just so you know, Dan does use his son in politics too - Remember when he confronted the State Supreme Court justices at their Stranger endorsement interview with pictures of the boy?
And, just so you know, Dan does use his son in politics too - Remember when he confronted the State Supreme Court justices at their Stranger endorsement interview with pictures of the boy?
15
Actually... In watching the video. I think that the words that apply in Dan's case can be found with Bristol's comment...
"Yeah, I've read the tabloids. i think that people are just evil as they did not know what's going on at all"
Agreed Bristol. This type of journalism is the lowest form and could only be compared to that of a paprazzi.
"Yeah, I've read the tabloids. i think that people are just evil as they did not know what's going on at all"
Agreed Bristol. This type of journalism is the lowest form and could only be compared to that of a paprazzi.
16
I don't understand why you say that Brisol didn't have any other choice. Is abortion illegal in Alaska? Is adoption? She chose to keep the baby, but that doesn't mean that was her only choice. She could have kept the pregnancy a secret and gotten an abortion like many youth who don't want to drag their parents along on such a decision. But like most young people, her values reflect her family's values, so she probably didn't consider abortion or adoption. That doesn't mean she didn't legally have any other choice. If the young daughter of an ardent pro-choice activist gets pregnant and doesn't for a minute consider any option other than abortion, you wouldn't say that she didn't have a choice. Right?
17
Paul,
This "kid" as you call her just had an out-of-wedlock baby (so really, she's an adult in most people's books), PLUS she just went on NATIONAL FUCKING TELEVISION to expouse her opinions on the subject of whether abstinence education is an effective means of preventing young adult pregnancy (surprise, surprise - it's not!).
As a product of that same educational system, as a person who, whether you want to acknowledge it or not, has been in the national spotlight, and as someone who clearly failed to heed the "lessons" she was taught and that her own mother so publicly supported, yeah, it is perfectly appropriate for the media to seek her out and ask for her opinion.
And hey, you know, if she'd wanted to maintain her privacy, she could have just said "no" to the interview, couldn't she? But she didn't, did she? No, she CHOSE to do the interview, putting herself and her opinions into the public record, and therefore opening both to criticism from whomever disagrees with those opinions, no? So, why all the sanctimony on your part?
And FWIW, the moment Dan's son goes on a national television program and voices an opinion on a controversial subject, then yeah, he's most likely going to get criticized by some other individual or group that disagrees with his stance, as will his dad no doubt, simply by association; it's called "debating in the forum of public opinion", get it?
This "kid" as you call her just had an out-of-wedlock baby (so really, she's an adult in most people's books), PLUS she just went on NATIONAL FUCKING TELEVISION to expouse her opinions on the subject of whether abstinence education is an effective means of preventing young adult pregnancy (surprise, surprise - it's not!).
As a product of that same educational system, as a person who, whether you want to acknowledge it or not, has been in the national spotlight, and as someone who clearly failed to heed the "lessons" she was taught and that her own mother so publicly supported, yeah, it is perfectly appropriate for the media to seek her out and ask for her opinion.
And hey, you know, if she'd wanted to maintain her privacy, she could have just said "no" to the interview, couldn't she? But she didn't, did she? No, she CHOSE to do the interview, putting herself and her opinions into the public record, and therefore opening both to criticism from whomever disagrees with those opinions, no? So, why all the sanctimony on your part?
And FWIW, the moment Dan's son goes on a national television program and voices an opinion on a controversial subject, then yeah, he's most likely going to get criticized by some other individual or group that disagrees with his stance, as will his dad no doubt, simply by association; it's called "debating in the forum of public opinion", get it?
18
No, #12, Dan's post her mocks those who said Bristol should be left alone until she decided to make a logical statement with which they disagree; then they suddenly found her fair game.
That's hypocrisy, plain and simple.
Also, Bristol may be Sarah Palin's daughter, which makes her technically Governor Palin's child; however, 18 year old women should no longer be classified as "children." And any 18 year old who choses to be interviewed by Greta Van Susteren is stepping into the stoplight, not needing protection from it showering upon her.
That's hypocrisy, plain and simple.
Also, Bristol may be Sarah Palin's daughter, which makes her technically Governor Palin's child; however, 18 year old women should no longer be classified as "children." And any 18 year old who choses to be interviewed by Greta Van Susteren is stepping into the stoplight, not needing protection from it showering upon her.
20
and typing "your" when you mean "you're" means you're an idiot, so you can just go ahead and ignore all 3 of my posts
21
@20 - He's not saying she didn't have another choice. He's saying that people praised her for keeping the baby (making the "choice" to not get an abortion), and those same people would take that "choice" away from others.
Paul - I thought all the discussion about Bristol was pretty unpalatable... BEFORE she did an exclusive interview on her own. As 8 pointed out, she gave that interview as Bristol Palin (a legal adult), not Sarah Palin's daughter. In a way, I disagree with the premise of Dan's post - that it's somehow hypocritical for the abstinence groups to criticize Bristol now, and to have pushed for her to not be a discussion topic during the campaign. Because then she was a child of a politician, and now she is an adult making her own decision to enter into the spotlight.
Anyways, I think it's pretty god-damned awesome that she had the balls to say that abstinence education doesn't work. She clearly was not super comfortable in front of the camera, but wanted to make the points she made.
Paul - I thought all the discussion about Bristol was pretty unpalatable... BEFORE she did an exclusive interview on her own. As 8 pointed out, she gave that interview as Bristol Palin (a legal adult), not Sarah Palin's daughter. In a way, I disagree with the premise of Dan's post - that it's somehow hypocritical for the abstinence groups to criticize Bristol now, and to have pushed for her to not be a discussion topic during the campaign. Because then she was a child of a politician, and now she is an adult making her own decision to enter into the spotlight.
Anyways, I think it's pretty god-damned awesome that she had the balls to say that abstinence education doesn't work. She clearly was not super comfortable in front of the camera, but wanted to make the points she made.
22
@20: *She* had a choice, but Dan's point was that is that she was celebrated by anti-choice types for making a choice that they want to take away from her.
23
Comte...
Do you REALLY think that Bristol Palin chose to go out and make this a public format? Her Mom was running for Vice president and some hacks were made aware that she was pregnant. The press outed this and used it as an attack on her MOm. So let's call a spade a spade.
Could she have said no to not sharing her private life? At what cost? I am sure she feels that she undermined her Mom's political goals (clearly not the case).
Don't make it sound like this kid is out here doing it for any other reason than buckling under the public spotlight after having been made into a talking point in her Mom's campaign.
As to my "getting it"? Get this, is a classless topic of conversation and a mean-spirited tactic.
Do you REALLY think that Bristol Palin chose to go out and make this a public format? Her Mom was running for Vice president and some hacks were made aware that she was pregnant. The press outed this and used it as an attack on her MOm. So let's call a spade a spade.
Could she have said no to not sharing her private life? At what cost? I am sure she feels that she undermined her Mom's political goals (clearly not the case).
Don't make it sound like this kid is out here doing it for any other reason than buckling under the public spotlight after having been made into a talking point in her Mom's campaign.
As to my "getting it"? Get this, is a classless topic of conversation and a mean-spirited tactic.
24
@ 5 what do you mean it took a lot of guts? All she did was answer a question with the only logical answer she could give. Any other answer would have made her look like a lying hypocrite.
25
Paul - you really aren't making a lot of sense here... "could she have said no to not sharing her private life? At what cost?" Bristol decided to do this interview months after the election, and in doing so, chose to say things that cast the Republicans' policies in a negative light. It didn't seem like she was doing it to save her or her mom's reputation... She could have chosen not to do the interview and no one would have cared, at all.
27
Bristol is a well grounded young woman and her decision to have the baby should be applauded. Abstinence groups need to shut up. If anything there should be more Bristols and Levi Johnstons out there who are responsible like them.
29
#27: Actually, by the way Sarah Palin kept butting in etc....by the way Bristol has NOT yet married the father...I think Bristol partially did the interview as a Fuck You to her mom.
Bristol surely didn't enjoy her name being the butt of late night jokes or being the patron saint of the Right to Life movement. I think doing the interview was sort of a "I'm 18 now Mom and can do what I want!" moment for her. She came across as what she was: a normal and not particularly well-spoken 18 year old girl from a small town.
Bristol surely didn't enjoy her name being the butt of late night jokes or being the patron saint of the Right to Life movement. I think doing the interview was sort of a "I'm 18 now Mom and can do what I want!" moment for her. She came across as what she was: a normal and not particularly well-spoken 18 year old girl from a small town.
31
paul,
i thought all the controversy and tasteless speculation about bristol and sarah's "faked(?)" pregnancy was low, and it didn't reflect well on sullivan for being such a bulldog about it, whereas the obama campaign did well to ignore it. it was stupid and counterproductive. however, she is fair game now, for all the reasons listed above. was she fair game before now? no, i agree she wasn't. but i don't remember dan saying anything nasty or hurtful about her. correct me if i'm wrong.
i thought all the controversy and tasteless speculation about bristol and sarah's "faked(?)" pregnancy was low, and it didn't reflect well on sullivan for being such a bulldog about it, whereas the obama campaign did well to ignore it. it was stupid and counterproductive. however, she is fair game now, for all the reasons listed above. was she fair game before now? no, i agree she wasn't. but i don't remember dan saying anything nasty or hurtful about her. correct me if i'm wrong.
32
@11 (and 10, kind of)
"Children have every right to grow up, make their own mistakes, and not be showered under a spotlight of gossip and innuendo."
Nobody held a gun to Bristol Palin's head and made her give that interview. Anything she says now should be fair game for the media to report/comment on.
Bristol Palin doesn't have much of a choice as to whether or not she's Sarah Palin's daughter, and (IMO) the media has a responsibility to refrain getting too involved in their personal lives/opinions (especially non-adults). But she DOES have a choice as to whether or not she gives interviews to CNN and now her comments should be subjected to the scrutiny involved in entering the media spotlight.
Furthermore, I think the media can (and should) ask Gov. Palin how she could possibly support abstinence-only education now that her daughter has gone on CNN and told America that she doesn't think it's "very realistic." Before, any such questions would have been based on sheer speculation.
"Children have every right to grow up, make their own mistakes, and not be showered under a spotlight of gossip and innuendo."
Nobody held a gun to Bristol Palin's head and made her give that interview. Anything she says now should be fair game for the media to report/comment on.
Bristol Palin doesn't have much of a choice as to whether or not she's Sarah Palin's daughter, and (IMO) the media has a responsibility to refrain getting too involved in their personal lives/opinions (especially non-adults). But she DOES have a choice as to whether or not she gives interviews to CNN and now her comments should be subjected to the scrutiny involved in entering the media spotlight.
Furthermore, I think the media can (and should) ask Gov. Palin how she could possibly support abstinence-only education now that her daughter has gone on CNN and told America that she doesn't think it's "very realistic." Before, any such questions would have been based on sheer speculation.
33
@31: It's responsible to own up to a mistake and take the reins for it.
So it's responsible to keep and raise a child -- IF you accept what you're getting into and not just because you think it's the least shameful/most socially acceptable route.
To my mind, it's just as responsible to have a prompt, safe abortion and make sure you don't ruin your life as well as a child's by being an unable or unwilling/resentful parent, or to initiate an adoption and ensure a more stable and loving life for an infant you can't take care of.
I'm not sure if you can call Bristol and Levi "responsible" because who knows why they're doing what they're doing?
So it's responsible to keep and raise a child -- IF you accept what you're getting into and not just because you think it's the least shameful/most socially acceptable route.
To my mind, it's just as responsible to have a prompt, safe abortion and make sure you don't ruin your life as well as a child's by being an unable or unwilling/resentful parent, or to initiate an adoption and ensure a more stable and loving life for an infant you can't take care of.
I'm not sure if you can call Bristol and Levi "responsible" because who knows why they're doing what they're doing?
34
remember when pointing out dick cheney's lesbian daughter while the GOP was in full-on hate mode against teh gay was out of bounds? the right never has to respond to their blatant hypocrisy, and they won't this time either.
denial is the essence of conservatism.
denial is the essence of conservatism.
37
They (the right) cannot stand not controlling people's lives. If only they could keep everyone as ignorant as they are, America wouldn't have any problems. Keep young people ignorant of their choices and they won't get pregnant. But the ignorant right is too ignorant to know just how ignorant they are. And we tried it their way and it was an abysmal failure.
38
@4, Harvard's Niall Ferguson reiterated the other day that the US's maintenance against all odds of our unholy alliance with China is the world's best shot at not having this depression pull the rug out from under everything all at once.
See http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/s…
Locke is a rock star in China. That is all that matters.
See http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/s…
Locke is a rock star in China. That is all that matters.
39
Disgusting to see folks still think that Trig is game due to his down syndrome. I respect Palin based on the fact that she knew her child had down syndrome and carried him to term, according to her own beliefs. There are those that would preach against abortion and get one at the slightest hint of a problem or disability. Palin stuck to her guns and made a beautiful statement honoring Trig's birth. It was a shock to Alaskans as she finally had to announce that she was pregnant - she didn't look it at 8 months! People with downs lead short lives due to their disorder, are able to work and, in some cases, live independently, and they are often very cheerful and happy. I can't imagine making fun of someone based upon something that they did not choose or have any control over. Palin has done some pretty foolish stuff in the national spotlight but leave her poor kids alone.
41
The problem with abstinence education, besides the fact that it doesn't work worth a damn, is that if it did work we would get a lot of married women with no clue how to plan their families. The religious right doesn't care about pregnant teens, I think. What they really want are uneducated married women to have baby after baby after baby, thus expanding their "christian nation" and keeping women chained to the stove.
42
We don't need no stinkin abstinence. We have bombs. we can kill off excess population with bombs. get 'em while they're young. Ya know. Like we've been doing i Iraq. Good old Dan supported that war and he's been much criticized for it. But it was a brave act. Kill those fucking kids. Bring 'em democracy.
43
43: Well said, the same should go for Bristol, her boyfriend soon to be husband and their baby. I find people criticizing her and her new family to be nothing but jealous of the beautiful family she now has formed. They represent this great nation's true future.
44
In his speech last night, President Obama [I still get thrills just writing that!] said about education that he would be cutting programs that do not work. It's hard to think of any other programs to which he is referring because there are so few individual programs that the federal government actually funds. I think abstinence only education funding is on the chopping block.
45
Dan, what's the deal with the "blah de blah blah?" You're not giving in to the anti-wockas, are you?
¡Viva la wocka!
¡Viva la wocka!
46
I understand that any anti-choice Republican running for office should be brighter than to use the word choice when discussing her unwed daughter's decision to keep a baby. But do you really think Sarah meant that Bristol chose to keep the baby as opposed to aborting it, or maybe keep the baby as opposed to giving it up for adoption? As a father of an adopted child yourself, you should realize that the very polarizing topic of abortion very often ignores another option.
Can you imagine Sarah's face if Bristol had chosen instead to make baby Tripp your second-born?
Can you imagine Sarah's face if Bristol had chosen instead to make baby Tripp your second-born?
48
Dan is an utter snot and gas bag when it comes to Bristol Palin.
Her private life is as natural and modern as millions of other young women. They date, meet, the right guys, have sex, and many babies ensue. So what? Her mother is famed, so what the fuck?
Now to the interview. BRISTOL PALIN did more to spark a real discussion of birth control and early sex among youngsters than anyone else in recent
memory. Dan can rant all over America and it means shit by comparison.
She is a bit of a hero ... and I bet her media savvy mother is in awe.
Now if pretty daddy would talk about the need to wear condoms, that would be a topper.....
(remember Dan stirs shit to create smell, hits and marketing - not related to journalism at all)
Her private life is as natural and modern as millions of other young women. They date, meet, the right guys, have sex, and many babies ensue. So what? Her mother is famed, so what the fuck?
Now to the interview. BRISTOL PALIN did more to spark a real discussion of birth control and early sex among youngsters than anyone else in recent
memory. Dan can rant all over America and it means shit by comparison.
She is a bit of a hero ... and I bet her media savvy mother is in awe.
Now if pretty daddy would talk about the need to wear condoms, that would be a topper.....
(remember Dan stirs shit to create smell, hits and marketing - not related to journalism at all)
49
Comprehensive sex-ed is the only way to prevent unwanted teen births. I know a girl who got pregnant at 17 even though her parents, my friends, gave her sex education at home and good advice about birth control since her school did not. Peer pressure at school to sign an abstinence pledge and a desire to be like the other kids kept her from filling scrips for pills or carrying condoms, she did not want to be thought of as a slut. She had sex with just the one boy twice in one evening. Now she has a baby and probably won't go on to college.
50
Loveschild, do you really think you can call two 17 year olds "responsible" for getting pregnant and having the kid? Didn't you mean "irresponsible"? Yes it's nice that they bucked up and took responsibility for the life they created, but their situation makes it much easier for them to do so. Tabloids will pay them money for baby pics. Their family is somewhat famous. They can make ends meet. Bristol knew this in making her decision. Had she been someone else's child in a different situation, it may not have worked out so wonderfully.
51
`@48 Holy Shit! Bristol met Mr. Right? a flunkie, dumbass, no talent hockey player who is unemployed?
And normal? A home-schooled ignoramus with her mother's speaking ability? I never knew home-schooled children were normal. I thought kids who go to school were normal.
I pray Bristol is NOT a hero to anyone.
And normal? A home-schooled ignoramus with her mother's speaking ability? I never knew home-schooled children were normal. I thought kids who go to school were normal.
I pray Bristol is NOT a hero to anyone.
52
She is a kid who no one would have heard of if not for the fact that her mom is famous.
Dan is a PRICK who is fixated on her.
As a famous (in his own mind) person with a kid Dan should use better judgement.
Karma has a way of biting you in the ass when you are an ass.
Dan is a PRICK who is fixated on her.
As a famous (in his own mind) person with a kid Dan should use better judgement.
Karma has a way of biting you in the ass when you are an ass.
53
@ 52
a) She is isn't a kid, she's an adult. Yes, a young one, but still an adult.
b) I don't read this post as Dan picking on her, I read it as Dan picking on the abstinence groups that are displeased with her for her opinion.
a) She is isn't a kid, she's an adult. Yes, a young one, but still an adult.
b) I don't read this post as Dan picking on her, I read it as Dan picking on the abstinence groups that are displeased with her for her opinion.
54
I'm fixated on her too. My theory is that Trig was hers, born premature, and not in April at all, at which point Sarah Palin decided the kid would be "hers" - to Bristol's chagrin, but Bristol got paid off. But Bristol's still pissed, so she goes and has another kid and names it TRIP! That way her mom is still forced to publicly deal with the reality of her daughter's pregnancy, because she can't the second one [Bristol was pulled out of school during the Trig pregnancy], and she's still going to support Bristol because Bristol has something on her.
Bristol is my idol.
Bristol is my idol.
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