Slog

News & Arts

Line Out

Music & Nightlife

Tuesday, February 24, 2009

Gay People Are a Lot Like Murderers...

Posted by Dan Savage on Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 9:15 AM

...only our "victims" frequently come back for seconds. The latest idiocy, this time out of Colorado:

Debating a gay-rights bill on the floor of the state Senate on Monday, a Republican lawmaker took the rhetoric to new heights by equating homosexuality as a sin with murder.

"I'm not saying this (homosexuality) is the only sin that's out there," said Sen. Scott Renfroe, R-Greeley. "We have murder. We have all sorts of sin. We have adultery. And we don't make laws making those legal, and we would never think to make murder legal."

You know, GOPers, average Americans are finding it increasingly difficult time to square your anti-gay rhetoric with, say, that nice gay boy they saw on the Oscars thanking his beautiful mother for loving him and God for giving us Harvey Milk.

UPDATE: Eugene Boi in comments makes a great point:

Now I know where I rank. Adulterers and murderers can get married.

Of course adulterers have to be married—which is why I was told, when I looked into committing adultery for Skipping Towards Gomorrah, that it wasn't possible for me to be an adulterer. Not in the eyes of the Lard anyway.

Share via

  • Twitter
  • Facebook
  • Newsvine
  • Reddit
  • StumbleUpon
  • del.icio.us
  • Email
 

Comments (55) RSS

Oldest First Unregistered On Registered On Add a comment
1
Since you mention it, Senator Renfroe, will you make the "sin" of adultery illegal if we can also have marriage equality--after all, you're "protecting the sanctity" of marriage.
Posted by Andy Niable on February 24, 2009 at 9:20 AM
2
Whether it's a "sin" or not is irrelavent. Is it a crime? Laws are supposed to be religion-free. Murder is illegal because it's a crime. So is he saying being gay is a crime?

Gah!!!! So frustrating!
Posted by Urgutha Forka on February 24, 2009 at 9:23 AM
3
Now I know where I rank. Adulterers and murderers can get married.
Posted by eugene boi on February 24, 2009 at 9:24 AM
4
Every time you kiss someone of the same sex god sends an angel to hell, it's a scientific fact.
Posted by Chris on February 24, 2009 at 9:24 AM
5
...hmmmm

...are there any "christians" who actually follow the example of Jesus?

...or is playing "God" just too much of a temptation?
Posted by SoVo on February 24, 2009 at 9:25 AM
6
To commit another sin: Jesus fucking Christ, what an asshat.
Posted by laterite on February 24, 2009 at 9:26 AM
7
That is all kinds of stupid. The homosexuality equals murder thing, the sin/crime thing, but also adultery is legal, you fuckwit. Jesus.
Posted by Julie in Eugene on February 24, 2009 at 9:27 AM
8
I look forward to Chairman Steele's statement repudiating this nonsense. Oh, wait. . .
Posted by Balt-O-Matt on February 24, 2009 at 9:30 AM
9
Yeah, also, it's not illegal to talk back to your parents, which if you're following the ten commandments it should be...

Come to think of it, homosexuality didn't even make it into the ten commandments. It only made it into Leviticus, which says that pretty much every single thing you can do is a sin. Goddamn Christians, get it right.
Posted by Jocelyn on February 24, 2009 at 9:30 AM
10
Not a whole lot new here. The loony "knuckle-dragging bibliolators" have always lumped such things together, ignoring any obvious difference or magnitude. I call their construct the "homogeneous forces of darkness."
Posted by thoughtcriminal on February 24, 2009 at 9:52 AM
11
So just because adultery is legal we should dig deeper into the pit by encouraging homosexual behavior with the approval of special laws for gays. There's no need for special privileges for homosexuals, we're all given the same protections under the law.
Posted by Loveschild on February 24, 2009 at 9:53 AM
12
@11- No, actually, you're an idiot.
Posted by Jocelyn on February 24, 2009 at 9:55 AM
13
Except that we aren't, Loveschild
Posted by Arsenic7 on February 24, 2009 at 9:56 AM
14
This guy is crazy.
Abortion is legal, after all.
Posted by but then, slaughtering 30Million babies isn't really murder on February 24, 2009 at 9:57 AM
15
Condemns gays.

Makes absurd comparisons.

Hides behind a bully pulpit of religious rhetoric.

From Colorado.

So, is Sen. Renfroe another long, lost lover of Ted Haggard?
Posted by yawp on February 24, 2009 at 10:00 AM
16
GOP has sunk to new lows. Desperation creeps into their behavior. They consciously use hate to try to further their political goals because their ideas have proven a disaster to the country. Nobody wants their vision of an America that lacks freedoms and justice and the right to pursue happiness. They're becoming just another version of the Taliban.
Posted by Vince on February 24, 2009 at 10:00 AM
17
Adultry legal? Not in my state.

I'm not remembering just who came up with this but there is an old Roman Catholic argument that Homosexuality is a sin second only murder. The idea being that it robbed God of somebody to love. In that sense it falls in line with those other two grave evils, birth control and masturbation.
Posted by Youth worker on February 24, 2009 at 10:00 AM
18
The upside: many more people than before will find this attitude moronic.

The downside: there are still a lot of people who this will resonate with.
Posted by Westside forever on February 24, 2009 at 10:01 AM
19
@18- Guess we'll just have to keep fighting the good fight.

Another upside, having this argument is much more entertaining than not having it. I accidentally moved to Canada a couple years ago and everybody's got so many rights it's boring. Good thing Stephen Harper's a douche or we'd have nothing to complain about.
Posted by Jocelyn on February 24, 2009 at 10:07 AM
20
@11

Why stop at gays?

Let's eliminate the special privileges for heterosexual marriage, too. Encouraging such behavior only leads to unwanted pregnancies, abortions, adultery, domestic violence, child abuse, child abandonment and so many other sins.

From now on it's celibacy for everyone until Jesus comes back on his magic cloud for his chosen ones.

The damned, of course, are free to fuck like bunnies.
Posted by yawp on February 24, 2009 at 10:13 AM
21
Senator Renfroe makes a good argument for legalizing murder. He would make a good test case.
Posted by elswinger on February 24, 2009 at 10:29 AM
22
re 11: notice how the rightwingers always talk about 'special privileges' whenever equal rights are mentioned for gays. it's kneejerk, never explained. it's meant to be inflammatory and nothing else, as in: "there go those gays, whining for special privileges again." take that drivel somewhere else, loveschild.
Posted by ellarosa on February 24, 2009 at 10:33 AM
23
Colorado resident here: yes, adultery IS illegal in this state. Doesn't get enforced, like a lot of laws here.

Colorado's a very funny place. I moved here almost two years ago after living all my life in tried-and-blue liberal Minnesota. Everyone here is either a crazy uber-right-winger, or a VERY left-leaning liberal/radical/Californian. It's somewhat divided by what city you live in, but in my town, it's just a matter of whether you live on the north or south side of town.

So politically, we get a lot of crazy yo-yo-ing happening. Things like ballot measures for universal health care sitting next to measures about giving fertilized eggs social security numbers, that kind of shit. The GLBT movement is horribly underdeveloped, though.

Thanks, Dan, for alerting me to this. It's right in my own backyard (I live in Fort Collins) and we'll see what action we can take to respond. Any suggestions (anyone?).
Posted by Laurel on February 24, 2009 at 10:35 AM
24
The more powerless the "saved ones" get, the more extreme and pathetic their attempts at retaking control. Their impotent screams can only get louder.
Posted by E on February 24, 2009 at 10:38 AM
25
Murder's not leagal......Oops!
Posted by dirty D on February 24, 2009 at 10:38 AM
26
Gay people _are_ a lot like murderers. They tend to have arms and legs. Require oxygen and sustenance. Are capable of both good and bad deeds.

Hmm...seems to me we're all a little similar.
Posted by AnyEdge on February 24, 2009 at 10:40 AM
27
I mean...legal!
Posted by dirty D on February 24, 2009 at 10:43 AM
28
Hmm. I did not know that adultery laws varied by state -- it is not against the law in the states that I have lived in. Seems like it's probably one of those "it's illegal to sleep in a bathtub" kind of laws, though, I would imagine.
Posted by Julie in Eugene on February 24, 2009 at 10:49 AM
29
I've always thought that the best people to be with in the afterlife will have been cast into outer darkness like me.
Posted by DaiBaindo on February 24, 2009 at 10:54 AM
30
@28 In an odd twist of fate in my state adultery laws are only use to protect the criminal. It's a $10 fine but the 5th amendment means that you can't be compelled to spill the beans during your divorce hearing. And I suppose it protects the judge as well.
Posted by Youth worker on February 24, 2009 at 11:08 AM
31
Ugh. When did Colorado turn into the Utah legislature?
(I say legislature because the governor and polled citizenry support rights for G&L people in the state but the Mormon, white, old legislature stands in the way)
Posted by Ben Rip on February 24, 2009 at 11:19 AM
32
31
Actually you will find lots of states where these ideas are shared.
Posted by just sayin' on February 24, 2009 at 11:40 AM
33
Pets will be allowed to get married before same sex couples. Or has this happened already?
Posted by -B- on February 24, 2009 at 11:46 AM
34
I believe the senator is mistaken -- murder is legal in his state. Oh wait that's capital punishment.
Posted by One of those gay people on February 24, 2009 at 12:15 PM
35
No no....that will only happen once gay people are allowed to marry. That's why we can't let it happen.
Posted by Jamie on February 24, 2009 at 12:19 PM
36
I think it should be manditory that any person or government who wants to base its laws and teachings off the Bible should first be able to read it in both its original texts, ancient Hebrew and ancient Greek. Then they should sit in silence, because the scriptures never say homosexuality is a sin. In fact there is no word meaning homosexuality in either ancient Greek or Hebrew. And that word "abomination" there so in love with, it isn't used in Leviticus either. The word the ancient Hebrews used was "toevah", which means against the holiness code. The holiness code was applicable for a period of history, but was lifted in Acts 10:15, and all things (like eating shrimp, touching a dead pig skin, etc.) became morally neutral. The salvation story was no longer just for the Jews, it was also for the Gentiles even those anal sex loving Roman Centurians who traveld with their personal sex slaves. The truth is, Jesus never said anything for or against homosexuality or same-sex interactions. Even if it is too tedious to learn to read both ancient Greek and Hebrew or struggle with lexicons. They can at least learn the history of the Church.

"When Same-Sex Marriage Was a Christian Rite
By ThosPayne

SS. Sergius & Bacchus - 7th cent.
A Kiev art museum contains a curious icon from St. Catherine's Monastery on Mt. Sinai in Israel. It shows two robed Christian saints. Between them is a traditional Roman ‘pronubus’ (a best man), overseeing a wedding. The pronubus is Christ. The married couple are both men.

Is the icon suggesting that a gay "wedding" is being sanctified by Christ himself? The idea seems shocking. But the full answer comes from other early Christian sources about the two men featured in the icon, St. Sergius and St. Bacchus, two Roman soldiers who were Christian martyrs. These two officers in the Roman army incurred the anger of Emperor Maximian when they were exposed as ‘secret Christians’ by refusing to enter a pagan temple. Both were sent to Syria circa 303 CE where Bacchus is thought to have died while being flogged. Sergius survived torture but was later beheaded. Legend says that Bacchus appeared to the dying Sergius as an angel, telling him to be brave because they would soon be reunited in heaven.

While the pairing of saints, particularly in the early Christian church, was not unusual, the association of these two men was regarded as particularly intimate. Severus, the Patriarch of Antioch (AD 512 - 518) explained that, "we should not separate in speech they [Sergius and Bacchus] who were joined in life". This is not a case of simple "adelphopoiia." In the definitive 10th century account of their lives, St. Sergius is openly celebrated as the "sweet companion and lover" of St. Bacchus. Sergius and Bacchus's close relationship has led many modern scholars to believe they were lovers. But the most compelling evidence for this view is that the oldest text of their martyrology, written in New Testament Greek describes them as "erastai,” or "lovers". In other words, they were a male homosexual couple. Their orientation and relationship was not only acknowledged, but it was fully accepted and celebrated by the early Christian church, which was far more tolerant than it is today.

Contrary to myth, Christianity's concept of marriage has not been set in stone since the days of Christ, but has constantly evolved as a concept and ritual.

Prof. John Boswell, the late Chairman of Yale University’s history department, discovered that in addition to heterosexual marriage ceremonies in ancient Christian church liturgical documents, there were also ceremonies called the "Office of Same-Sex Union" (10th and 11th century), and the "Order for Uniting Two Men" (11th and 12th century).

These church rites had all the symbols of a heterosexual marriage: the whole community gathered in a church, a blessing of the couple before the altar was conducted with their right hands joined, holy vows were exchanged, a priest officiatied in the taking of the Eucharist and a wedding feast for the guests was celebrated afterwards. These elements all appear in contemporary illustrations of the holy union of the Byzantine Warrior-Emperor, Basil the First (867-886 CE) and his companion John.

Such same gender Christian sanctified unions also took place in Ireland in the late 12thand/ early 13th century, as the chronicler Gerald of Wales (‘Geraldus Cambrensis’) recorded.

Same-sex unions in pre-modern Europe list in great detail some same gender ceremonies found in ancient church liturgical documents. One Greek 13th century rite, "Order for Solemn Same-Sex Union", invoked St. Serge and St. Bacchus, and called on God to "vouchsafe unto these, Thy servants [N and N], the grace to love one another and to abide without hate and not be the cause of scandal all the days of their lives, with the help of the Holy Mother of God, and all Thy saints". The ceremony concludes: "And they shall kiss the Holy Gospel and each other, and it shall be concluded".

Another 14th century Serbian Slavonic "Office of the Same Sex Union", uniting two men or two women, had the couple lay their right hands on the Gospel while having a crucifix placed in their left hands. After kissing the Gospel, the couple were then required to kiss each other, after which the priest, having raised up the Eucharist, would give them both communion.

Records of Christian same sex unions have been discovered in such diverse archives as those in the Vatican, in St. Petersburg, in Paris, in Istanbul and in the Sinai, covering a thousand-years from the 8th to the 18th century.

The Dominican missionary and Prior, Jacques Goar (1601-1653), includes such ceremonies in a printed collection of Greek Orthodox prayer books, “Euchologion Sive Rituale Graecorum Complectens Ritus Et Ordines Divinae Liturgiae” (Paris, 1667).

While homosexuality was technically illegal from late Roman times, homophobic writings didn’t appear in Western Europe until the late 14th century. Even then, church-consecrated same sex unions continued to take place.

At St. John Lateran in Rome (traditionally the Pope's parish church) in 1578, as many as thirteen same-gender couples were joined during a high Mass and with the cooperation of the Vatican clergy, "taking communion together, using the same nuptial Scripture, after which they slept and ate together" according to a contemporary report. Another woman to woman union is recorded in Dalmatia in the 18th century.

Prof. Boswell's academic study is so well researched and documented that it poses fundamental questions for both modern church leaders and heterosexual Christians about their own modern attitudes towards homosexuality.

For the Church to ignore the evidence in its own archives would be cowardly and deceptive. The evidence convincingly shows that what the modern church claims has always been its unchanging attitude towards homosexuality is, in fact, nothing of the sort.

It proves that for the last two millennia, in parish churches and cathedrals throughout Christendom, from Ireland to Istanbul and even in the heart of Rome itself, homosexual relationships were accepted as valid expressions of a God-given love and committment to another person, a love that could be celebrated, honored and blessed, through the Eucharist in the name of, and in the presence of, Jesus Christ. "

St. Augustine was right on when he wrote: "The church is a whore, but she's my mother." As follower of Christ, I apologize for the hatred the church has towards the homosexual community. I am very sorry.

I hope some one reads this long post. Sorry for its length. But,f**k (sorry for my poor language), this pisses me off.
More...
Posted by kim in portland (formerly just kim) on February 24, 2009 at 1:00 PM
37
Kim, I love you.
Posted by Jocelyn on February 24, 2009 at 1:08 PM
38
Thanks, Jocelyn. I have enjoyed reading your blog. I read a lot about church history on:

www.christiansforequality.blogspot.com
Posted by kim in portland (formerly just kim) on February 24, 2009 at 1:27 PM
39
Thank YOU, Kim.

It's an interesting blog, although I have to admit that I'm a bit turned off by the first post. I tend to get pretty defensive when people question the validity of Catholicism as a branch of Christianity. Catholicism certainly has its flaws, but not being Christian is not one of them.
Posted by Jocelyn on February 24, 2009 at 1:38 PM
40
Jocelyn,

I agree with you about Catholicism, it has its flaws as does every denomination, but it is the bride of Christ, too. My favorite Christian author, Henri J.M. Nouwen was a Catholic priest (He was also gay), and his books have had a great impact on my spirtual life and help me have a greater appreciation for the Catholic Church. You might like his work.
Posted by kim in portland (formerly just kim) on February 24, 2009 at 2:23 PM
41
I will definitely check him out. Thanks, Kim!
Posted by Jocelyn on February 24, 2009 at 2:28 PM
42
I <3 thorough posts with actual Greek terms describing things I didn't know about the early church.
Posted by Alicia on February 24, 2009 at 2:38 PM
43
Thanks a bunch for your post Kim. It was very interesting and not too long at all. I think the important thing and the hard thing to do as Christians is to keep reminding the hate mongerers that they do not speak for us. Whenever one of these people starts yapping about how "Christianity teaches this" we have to speak out. And also it's hard to explain to the secularist lefties who think that because I think Christ had something worthwhile to say I want to nuke gay whales for Jesus.
Posted by Anarfea on February 24, 2009 at 3:24 PM
44
Thanks, Anarfea.

I often have the same problem.
Posted by kim in portland (formerly just kim) on February 24, 2009 at 4:16 PM
45

scott.renfroe.senate@state.co.us
Posted by got a minute? on February 24, 2009 at 5:51 PM
46
@23 Laurel:

I'm in pretty much the same boat. Moved here about 18 months ago and I've been agog on the dual personality thing we have going on here in Colorado. Not many people riding down the middle here. I'm just dumbfounded that the same state that gives us Boulder (I loved all those supposedly-scary "Boulder Liberal OMG" commercials against Mark Udall--they were a good laugh whenever they came on) also gives us buttheads like Mssr. Renfroe.

To everyone outside the Rocky Mountain state, our apologies for letting the crazies out of their cages and onto the national stage. We'll see if we can shore things up over here and we'll get right back to you.
Posted by Kathy on February 24, 2009 at 7:39 PM
47
As if God could even care about what same-sex couples are doing. He's got His hands full, just dealing with all the crazy republican loonies.
Posted by BobbyP2001 on February 24, 2009 at 7:51 PM
48
Kim in Portland, #36 - I'm a gay male in Seattle, don't even know you, but I must tell you, I love you, for the very wonderful, intelligent person that you are! You've definitely got a fan, with me! Thank you!
Posted by BobbyP2001 on February 24, 2009 at 8:05 PM
49
Thanks again, Kim in Portland,

Your posts are so useful, the Stranger should pay you.
Posted by Mrs. Norris on February 25, 2009 at 3:23 AM
50
Thank you, Mrs. Norris and BobbyP2001 for your kind encouragement. I post, because (and this will sound weird) I believe it is God who leads me, and my own love compels me. Mr. Black and Mr. Milk are right God loves us all.
Posted by kim in portland (formerly just kim) on February 25, 2009 at 7:40 AM
51
BobbyP2001, @ 48- you have a fan as well in me, 3 1/2 hours down the I5 corridor.

Best wishes,
k
Posted by kim in portland (formerly just kim) on February 25, 2009 at 7:43 AM
52
@ 23 - Laurel, you gave me a pang of nostalgia when you mentioned Ft. Collins. That's where my first lover & I met, when we were both CSU students back in the early 90's. We made it 13 years; it was a good run, and I'll always love him.

@ 36 - Wow, great post! You're right, those long posts often get lost in the shuffle here, but I read every word. I have Boswell's book; it's in the gay section of my book collection, right next to "The Joy of Gay Sex"!
Posted by Chris down in The Couv on February 25, 2009 at 10:09 AM
53
@52 - I think that's a great place to keep Boswell's book.
Posted by kim in portland (formerly just kim) on February 25, 2009 at 10:28 AM
54
Just watched Refroe's speach on Youtube, the guy sounded like he had a fear of public speaking. Not very elegant at all.
Posted by kim in portland (formerly just kim) on February 25, 2009 at 8:22 PM
55
And Savage --
I don't think you're an adulterer. Probably just a fornicator. You might be one in Canada.
Posted by K on February 26, 2009 at 5:30 AM

Add a comment

 

All contents © Index Newspapers, LLC
1535 11th Ave (Third Floor), Seattle, WA 98122
Contact Info | Privacy Policy | Terms of Use