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News & ArtsSaturday, February 21, 2009
News Sharper Than a Serpent's Tooth
Posted by Dan Savage on Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 8:33 AM
AP:
A 15-year-old girl turned in her mom for allegedly smoking marijuana in front of her. The 32-year-old woman was cited on suspicion of child abuse and marijuana possession. The daughter called the Lancaster County Sheriff's Office, and authorities executed a search warrant of her mother's home on Wednesday. The girl told authorities where they could find the woman's drug paraphernalia and marijuana. One gram of pot was found.
Now maybe this was a desperation move on the 15-year-old's part. Maybe mom was a mess and abusive and neglectful and the girl saw no other way to jolt her mother out of her stupor, or maybe the girl wanted to protect her younger siblings from her mother's abuse and turning her in for pot was the only way out. Or maybe mom wasn't evil and abusive. Maybe this is just another example of how the widespread use of pot by parents—including parents (who should know better, who should set a better example, who should blah blah blah)—and the war on drugs can place a potentially destructive weapon in the hands of rebellious teenagers.
3
This happened to a friend of mine. Her teen-age daughter was mad at her, so the kid hid her own stash in her mom's bedroom and called the police.
6
Remember the good old days when the Bible was the evil element and kids were told to report anyone they knew that read the Bible; they'd tell on their grandparents and parents and Siberia would have a few more residents? Yeah ha ha, oh? The Soviet Union? Big Brother land? Oh never mind.
Our Government has created an evil out of cotton candy and the weakness of peoples' minds. Just like Stalin did.
Let this be a lesson that unless you get involved, those attending the meetings will make the decisions.
Our Government has created an evil out of cotton candy and the weakness of peoples' minds. Just like Stalin did.
Let this be a lesson that unless you get involved, those attending the meetings will make the decisions.
7
Or maybe parents (such as you Mr. Savage), should refrain from pot smoking and other "fun" behavior until the kids leave home for good. If you as a parent can't refrain from smoking pot, at least have the fucking courtesy to share your stash with your teens.
10
I once broke my mothers pipe in half because I was pissed at her.
Seriously, though, this is something any kid with ex hippy parents has been around. I'm not going to defend it completely because my mother was one of those people who totally lost any semblance of a short term memory when she smoked and it was pretty annoying but really a gram of pot is not going to hurt anyone.
Seriously, though, this is something any kid with ex hippy parents has been around. I'm not going to defend it completely because my mother was one of those people who totally lost any semblance of a short term memory when she smoked and it was pretty annoying but really a gram of pot is not going to hurt anyone.
11
MISSION ACCOMPLISHED. DRUGS DEFEATED.
Can we reinvest all that money some where else now that the drug queen is off the streets?
Can we reinvest all that money some where else now that the drug queen is off the streets?
13
Control freaks really get their panties in a bunch over this. I know many responsibe parents who have smoked pot with their teen age kids. If you you already have a trusting relationship and really know who your kids are ther is no danger of them narcing on you.
14
@13, no reasonable person would suggest smoking pot with your kids, and I had the kind of hippie parents people often talk about. It's just a bad idea any way you slice.
15
I don't think any parent should smoke in front of or with their teen, at least not until the kid is 18. I grew up smoking pot with my friend's parents at the age of 13/14, and as an adult I know what they did was wrong. In that case the parents (who were not abusive, just extremely dumb addicts) turned out to be real scumbags. The mom later turned her back on her daughter (my best friend I should add) who got into stripping, Vegas trips and dope, and eventually died of a methadone overdose as a young adult. I know that has absolutely nothing to do with the case, just an example of an extreme case of 'mom' trying to be a friend to their teen instead of being prudent and teaching their children about recreational drug use vs addict style drug abuse. Whoa that was a long semi-sucky sentence.
Anyway I am a pothead, college grad and work a good paying job in the medical industry and I am betting that little vindictive twit-snitch will regret what she did years from now. Its not like the mom was a crack head or junkie. But like Dan said, maybe she was abusive or neglectful and the teen just got sick of putting up with her shit.
Anyway I am a pothead, college grad and work a good paying job in the medical industry and I am betting that little vindictive twit-snitch will regret what she did years from now. Its not like the mom was a crack head or junkie. But like Dan said, maybe she was abusive or neglectful and the teen just got sick of putting up with her shit.
16
'Who denounced you?' said Winston.
'It was my little daughter,' said Parsons with a sort of doleful pride.
'It was my little daughter,' said Parsons with a sort of doleful pride.
19
#14 my own experience was that there were zero consequences for either the parent or the kids who smoked pot together. Really no different than when a family allows older teen age kids to share a glass of wine at dinner. I am sure there are some law and order freaks who would be more than happy to cause consequences, but that ain't going to ever happen.
20
Right @7, except for the little problem of who gets to define what "fun behavior" is?
Is:
drinking
eathing lots of junk food
watching too much TV/videos
playing too many video games
engaging in competitive sports
setting off Fourth of July fireworks
lighting camp fires
cooking over an open pit bar-b-que
hunting
- all of which could be considered "fun", but which are also all perfectly legal, and which in many instances are all potentially hazardous activities - to be refrained from, simply because a parent might inadvertently do something stupid and injurious while engaged in any of them?
I think the more pertinent lesson here is: don't have children; they'll turn on you at the first opportunity.
Is:
drinking
eathing lots of junk food
watching too much TV/videos
playing too many video games
engaging in competitive sports
setting off Fourth of July fireworks
lighting camp fires
cooking over an open pit bar-b-que
hunting
- all of which could be considered "fun", but which are also all perfectly legal, and which in many instances are all potentially hazardous activities - to be refrained from, simply because a parent might inadvertently do something stupid and injurious while engaged in any of them?
I think the more pertinent lesson here is: don't have children; they'll turn on you at the first opportunity.
21
Been there, perhaps your experience is there are no negative consequences with smoking pot with your kids, but every single person I knew in college who smoked with their parents ended up doing more then pot. The idea was kids are always going to push the boundaries, and if their parents said pot was fine, then they wanted to try more. Some of these kids turned out fine, some developed drug problems. I would have no problem if my kids smoked pot in a responsible manner, but from my experience one way to help that happen is not to say it is okay to it with them when they are in high school.
23
Anyone who smokes pot is a loser, the only question is how much of one.
Anyone who smokes pot with or in front of their minor children is a huge loser. No exception.
Anyone who smokes pot with or in front of their minor children is a huge loser. No exception.
25
@21 is totally right. you're their parent, not their friend. a bad parent smokes pot with their kids. it's as simple as that. all substance abuse experts will tell you this is an awful idea. teenagers are stupid, and as much as they want to be independent and shit, they need order and balance. it's not the pot smoking itself that is in danger of fucking them up, but rather the lack of boundaries and effective parenting that would come from a parent smoking pot with their kid.
26
my parents were ridiculous about substances. despite mom being wasted on the coach every night for years the idea that I would take to drinking was met with SHOCK. weed, obviously, even more out of the question. one of my closest friends started smoking a lot in high school and his parents found his bong. they were very upset as they had seen evidence of this in his grades, his attitude, etc. they punished him, he smoked less, etc. a few years later his parents are smoking with him, with me. they told him about when they were growing up and what marijuana meant to them. now they have a healthy relationship with each other and with weed with each other. they represent a resounding success in parenting to me.
27
@14, 21
It depends on your relationship with your kids. As a parent you really ought to know them well enough to determine what kind of effect sharing something like pot or alcohol with them might have on them down the line. The problem isn't that there is one right or wrong answer to this question or this situation; it's that parents are people, and most people, even when they're conscientious and well-intentioned (which is not most of the time), aren't very competent.
My parents were able to share an alcoholic beverage with me now and then without trouble, because they waited to do so until I was in my mid-teens and they had impressed a proper respect for the stuff on me.
That said, Dan's right about this case: without more information there's really no way to judge what's really going on. Could have been a bad parent, could have been a bratty kid, could have been any number of things.
It depends on your relationship with your kids. As a parent you really ought to know them well enough to determine what kind of effect sharing something like pot or alcohol with them might have on them down the line. The problem isn't that there is one right or wrong answer to this question or this situation; it's that parents are people, and most people, even when they're conscientious and well-intentioned (which is not most of the time), aren't very competent.
My parents were able to share an alcoholic beverage with me now and then without trouble, because they waited to do so until I was in my mid-teens and they had impressed a proper respect for the stuff on me.
That said, Dan's right about this case: without more information there's really no way to judge what's really going on. Could have been a bad parent, could have been a bratty kid, could have been any number of things.
28
I get the impression that merely because of the law or that it does not set right with some that they desire consequences. The couple of parents I have known who share pot with their kids did so when the kids were 17 or 18 years old. In both cases the teenagers had already smoked it with friends their own age and realized that it was a pretty normal thing to do.
I would not advocate smoking it with teens much younger than about seventeen, but in both of the above cases no harm was done to anybody. When I observed it going on it never occoured to me that it was objectionable. Weather or not to do it depends completly on the people and circumstances. There is no hard and fast rule that states that dire consequences will ensue.
I would not advocate smoking it with teens much younger than about seventeen, but in both of the above cases no harm was done to anybody. When I observed it going on it never occoured to me that it was objectionable. Weather or not to do it depends completly on the people and circumstances. There is no hard and fast rule that states that dire consequences will ensue.
29
My father sold booze for a living. That is why, when he found my pipe (I was fourteen) I said "big deal, if people didn't use drugs for fun, you'd be out of business". He took the pipe but left me alone.
30
Maybe the kid just wanted to live with her dad.
p.s. As an offspring of the hippie generation I've got to tell you 99% of them were lousy parents. They did nothing but lay around on their lazy asses all day and eat and smoke dope. Their kids had to raise themselves and their younger siblings. My friends grew up to go on to harder drugs than their parents' pot (black tar heroin, meth, coke) or they became ultra conservative born-agains. Smoking pot with your kids (or in front of them) is a lame ass attempt at being your kids' Bestie and "cool" (really! someone's fat ass 50+ year old parents actually said that). Major parenting fail.
p.s. As an offspring of the hippie generation I've got to tell you 99% of them were lousy parents. They did nothing but lay around on their lazy asses all day and eat and smoke dope. Their kids had to raise themselves and their younger siblings. My friends grew up to go on to harder drugs than their parents' pot (black tar heroin, meth, coke) or they became ultra conservative born-agains. Smoking pot with your kids (or in front of them) is a lame ass attempt at being your kids' Bestie and "cool" (really! someone's fat ass 50+ year old parents actually said that). Major parenting fail.
31
I can only conclude that if booze was once again illegal the arguments would be the same for not drinking in front of the kids.
If pot were legal would it be EVIL and WRONG to smoke in front of the kids? What's at issue here? The pot or the law? No one has addressed that yet, cept me! :-)
If pot were legal would it be EVIL and WRONG to smoke in front of the kids? What's at issue here? The pot or the law? No one has addressed that yet, cept me! :-)
32
@20: That sounds a lot like the "where will we ever draw the line" argument against same sex marriage, but to answer your question, how about we start with legal vs. illegal activity.
Personally, I think pot should be legal, but until it is, partaking of it in front of your kids is not responsible parenting. If you are stupid enough to do it then who knows where the chips will fall.
Personally, I think pot should be legal, but until it is, partaking of it in front of your kids is not responsible parenting. If you are stupid enough to do it then who knows where the chips will fall.
33
My Dad smoked dope with my little brother and offered with me (I declined) as teens. Not because I was against dope, but because my Dad
* has never held a real job
* smokes dope every single day
* drinks a bunch every single day
This has now gone on for ~45 years. Good livers run in our family, I guess. I last smoked a dube about ten years ago- again, not because I have anything against dope, but all my friends that continued to smoke seemed to define their lives around their dope smoking, which seemed boring and provincial.
My little brother did not become a hard drug freak, though he did X for a while which he now regrets.
* has never held a real job
* smokes dope every single day
* drinks a bunch every single day
This has now gone on for ~45 years. Good livers run in our family, I guess. I last smoked a dube about ten years ago- again, not because I have anything against dope, but all my friends that continued to smoke seemed to define their lives around their dope smoking, which seemed boring and provincial.
My little brother did not become a hard drug freak, though he did X for a while which he now regrets.
34
Here's a clue about the dynamics: The mom is 32, which means she was 17 when she had the daughter.
35
I hid my pot smoking from my mom in high school because I thought I'd get in trouble. I found out midway through college that she smoked and every now and then we enjoy together. As an adult, I have a healthy relationship with drugs.
My younger brothers have been aware that my mom smoked since they were 12 and 14. They both do way too many drugs... Both have dealt. One got sent home from an expensive trip abroad because he was smoking. One dropped out of college and lives at home. They help themselves to Mom's stash and don't take any disciplinary actions seriously.
Moral: My kids aren't going to have a CLUE that I smoke until they're adults.
My younger brothers have been aware that my mom smoked since they were 12 and 14. They both do way too many drugs... Both have dealt. One got sent home from an expensive trip abroad because he was smoking. One dropped out of college and lives at home. They help themselves to Mom's stash and don't take any disciplinary actions seriously.
Moral: My kids aren't going to have a CLUE that I smoke until they're adults.
36
Anonymous, if you've got pot in the hous, your kids know you're a doper. Trust me on this. Been there, done that.
37
Good point, 31. Now, I'm going to need to ponder it. It's true my kids see me once a week enjoy a single scotch served neat, and they do hear the alcohol & drug warning at school. We talk about the law and how it applies to alcohol consumption at home, but I wonder if they feel that they are getting conflicting messages? Thanks for the question. It appears it's time for another conversation.
38
Yeah, Dan, it's hard to judge this case without more particulars. We need someone to do some investigation, talk to those involved, look at the evidence, give us the relevant facts. Who might do that? Oh yeah, a journalist! I wonder where I could find one of those.
39
Just proves that rebellion has nothing to do with specifics...it's just hating anything the old people do.
41
@33 - Sven, I completely agree about the "defining their lives around smoking pot" thing. I think pot is harmless on its face and that many people are able to handle it in a healthy way. However, a number of my friends began to define their lives around pot smoking. It's the stereotypical story -- a bunch of smart and/or talented kids that seemed to lose motivation or ambition or a desire to achieve something...
So, I worry about how to handle it with my (hypothetical future) kids. I'm one of those people that has a healthy attitude towards pot, and smokes it occasionally in moderation. But, I'm not sure how to best instill that attitude in my kids... In theory, I'm okay with my teenager smoking pot, but how do you prevent them from becoming one of the cliches?
So, I worry about how to handle it with my (hypothetical future) kids. I'm one of those people that has a healthy attitude towards pot, and smokes it occasionally in moderation. But, I'm not sure how to best instill that attitude in my kids... In theory, I'm okay with my teenager smoking pot, but how do you prevent them from becoming one of the cliches?
42
I drink rarely, and let my teenagers have a bit of wine when I'm drinking it. I don't smoke pot, but if I did, I think I'd want to hide that from my kids.
Not because pot is so horrible, but because it's illegal. i don't think parents should do illegal stuff in front of their children. If you want your children to respect the rules you make for them, I think you need to respect the rules your society has made for you, or give a damn good reason not to.
I told my kids that pot isn't all that dangerous (although of course, it can be abused) but the legal penalties at the federal level for being caught with it are horrific, and if they want to try pot, I suggest they wait until they are in a country where it's legal, or at least, a minor crime.
Not because pot is so horrible, but because it's illegal. i don't think parents should do illegal stuff in front of their children. If you want your children to respect the rules you make for them, I think you need to respect the rules your society has made for you, or give a damn good reason not to.
I told my kids that pot isn't all that dangerous (although of course, it can be abused) but the legal penalties at the federal level for being caught with it are horrific, and if they want to try pot, I suggest they wait until they are in a country where it's legal, or at least, a minor crime.
43
People do technically illegal things around their kids all the time: roll through stop signs, fail to buy the parking sticker, dump garbage in the recycling bin, and all manner of other insignificant, yet clearly against-the-law actions, which if you pointed it out to them they'd simply stare at you blankly with a sort of "what the FUCK is your problem?" look on their faces.
The fact that something is illegal, and yet that illegality has been blatantly ignored by roughly two-thirds of the adult population at some point in their lives should pretty much invalidate the "don't do it around your kids if it's illegal" canard once and for all, especially if that's the ONLY rationalization with which you can come up.
The fact that something is illegal, and yet that illegality has been blatantly ignored by roughly two-thirds of the adult population at some point in their lives should pretty much invalidate the "don't do it around your kids if it's illegal" canard once and for all, especially if that's the ONLY rationalization with which you can come up.
44
@ COMTE,
Were you high when you posted that? Because that was sort of dumb. I get what you mean about people's stupid rationalizations but that wasn't very coherent. I mean, sure, some people do illegal shit in front of their kids all the time, and 2/3 of the people who were polled for the "Americans Who Have Used Drugs" poll tried pot at least once in their lives. But you made the leap from "Some people commit other petty crimes with their kids present" to "Use drugs in front of your kids and don't worry about it because it you've committed other crimes in front of them". Huh?
I was kind of under the impression people shouldn't smoke pot in front of their kids for the same reason they shouldn't drink alcohol or smoke cigarettes. Because long term use isn't good for you and people who have a habit (whether legal or illegal) really do have kids who do the same or worse.
Were you high when you posted that? Because that was sort of dumb. I get what you mean about people's stupid rationalizations but that wasn't very coherent. I mean, sure, some people do illegal shit in front of their kids all the time, and 2/3 of the people who were polled for the "Americans Who Have Used Drugs" poll tried pot at least once in their lives. But you made the leap from "Some people commit other petty crimes with their kids present" to "Use drugs in front of your kids and don't worry about it because it you've committed other crimes in front of them". Huh?
I was kind of under the impression people shouldn't smoke pot in front of their kids for the same reason they shouldn't drink alcohol or smoke cigarettes. Because long term use isn't good for you and people who have a habit (whether legal or illegal) really do have kids who do the same or worse.
45
As a former pothead I'd like to chime in here. The thing is, brains and whole neuro-systems are still developing until the early 20's, kids have very poor reasoning and impulse control as a result. They don't need pot to add to their stupidity,, youth has already impaired them plenty. If I could do it over, I'd save alcohol, sex, and drugs until my brain and psyche could handle it. And that's what I'll encourage my kids to do if I'm ever blessed to have any. It's not about being a prude or whatever crap some people try to twist it into. It's about what really can damage a young brain.
46
Since when is it a crime to expect parents to be responsible adults in front of thier children instead of the long lost character from Pineapple Express??
Jeez guys, lay off the kid who is sadly more mature than her mother
Jeez guys, lay off the kid who is sadly more mature than her mother
47
@45: Your point is actually well-supported by research: I don't have the stats on me, but kids who start smoking pot in their teens have a substantially increased risk of developing schizophrenia - and the younger your start, the bigger the increase in the risk. The study I saw didn't look at 20-somethings, but if you look at the trend, and the relatively modest increase at 18 or so, it's pretty clear that if you wait another couple years the increased risk, if any, is going to be negligible. So being cool with your kid eating weed (smoking is dumb at any age) in his 20s makes sense, but being cool with your kid smoking weed in his teens, and especially in his early teens, is irresponsible.
48
Julie@41: sounds like you already know the pros and cons of permissiveness and boundary setting that you'll have to address when the time comes. I'm sure you'll do what good parents do, which is listen to your kids and craft your rules and policies around what you think your kids can handle; if your kids are insecure with poor impulse control, you'll keep a tighter rein. If not, you won't. Parenting comes down to two things:
* listening to your kids- what they say and don't say. They will tell you what's going on and what they need if you listen in the right way.
* treating them like people. Not little adults, but people that are respected even as you set boundaries.
Thus far these two rules have covered 99% of the tough calls for me.
* listening to your kids- what they say and don't say. They will tell you what's going on and what they need if you listen in the right way.
* treating them like people. Not little adults, but people that are respected even as you set boundaries.
Thus far these two rules have covered 99% of the tough calls for me.
49
@46: Turning mom into the cops is your idea of responsibility? If the mom was being abusive or neglectful, that's a different matter, but for victimless crimes, you DON'T. FUCKING. DO THAT.
50
Reminds me of when I was about twelve. My father was using pot, but whenever I would find something or see something, he would insist that it was "my imagination", that I "didn't see anything" and that I was "crazy". Not surprisingly, that was not terribly good for my mental health, and I had zero respect for my father. I was also sure that if he got caught, he would blame it on us kids and we would end up in jail. (In retrospect, that seems unlikely, but I was twelve.)
One day I was looking for something in the kitchen cabinet, and in the back there was a mason jar full of some sort of leafy stuff. A few steps away was the kitchen trash can, with a big empty laundry detergent box in it. I put the jar in the laundry detergent box, put some more trash on top of it, and went on with my business.
The next day (after garbage pickup!) my dad was ranting. "Did any of you see a jar? I lost a jar!" And I had to bite my tongue to keep from laughing. "I didn't see anything!"
Moral: Call your kid crazy, get crazy results.
Thirty years later, I still laugh my ass off over that. It was the first bad thing I ever did, and it worked beautifully.
One day I was looking for something in the kitchen cabinet, and in the back there was a mason jar full of some sort of leafy stuff. A few steps away was the kitchen trash can, with a big empty laundry detergent box in it. I put the jar in the laundry detergent box, put some more trash on top of it, and went on with my business.
The next day (after garbage pickup!) my dad was ranting. "Did any of you see a jar? I lost a jar!" And I had to bite my tongue to keep from laughing. "I didn't see anything!"
Moral: Call your kid crazy, get crazy results.
Thirty years later, I still laugh my ass off over that. It was the first bad thing I ever did, and it worked beautifully.
51
@34: I noticed that too, that the mom would have had the daughter when she herself was only 17. I know there are some great moms who had kids that young, but statistically, there's also a much greater chance that the mom is uneducated and unmarried, the family is poor and that there are problems beyond recreational pot use in that household. Note that the mom also was arrested on suspicion of child abuse. I wouldn't be surprised if this girl has tried calling the cops about abuse/ neglect before, been waved off, and this time was determined to get their attention and did it by telling them about the pot.
52
@22 I just finished 3 whole minutes of giggling at your comment. Good stuff. Then again, i'm a little high - everything's a little extra funny right now.
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