Slog
News & ArtsTuesday, February 17, 2009
Media Anyone Going on Fox News...
Posted by Dan Savage on Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 9:12 PM
...needs to watch this.
The mayor of Lansing, Michigan, tears into a Fox newsbot—this is how it's done. Wish I had seen this before I went on O'Reilly, gee, ten million or so years ago. Thanks to Slog tipper Matt.
2
The mayor was on the Ed Schultz show this afternoon too. He's quite the excitable boy, isn't he? :D
7
This guy's assertion that Health benefits for life is some sort of decadence is insulting. As a Canadian, this shit never ceases to shock and appall me.
10
He REFRAMED each question perfectly. This man will go far in politics. Cory Booker/Virg Bernero 2016!!
(To anyone who wants to learn how to be effective like this, read George Lakoff... That includes you Spokesgay...)
(To anyone who wants to learn how to be effective like this, read George Lakoff... That includes you Spokesgay...)
11
The Fox newsbot is wrong. Some people do get healthcare for life -- govt workers (fed govt, not nec contractors) -- they retire from the govt, they get health care in their retirement, and people who make enough money not to worry about it -- say, Wall Street?
12
Let's all let that wonderful mayor know that he's doing everything right. mayor@ci.lansing.mi.us Would that we could have mayors like that all over. Remember when we all thought Obama would be like that?
13
Nate Silver needs to rank this guy for 2012.
Side comment: no need to apologize for your previous appearances, DS. You always give good TV.
Side comment: no need to apologize for your previous appearances, DS. You always give good TV.
14
@1 and 4 captured my first response exactly: get this guy to move to Seattle! If we had a mayor with just half his brains and spine we'd have three times the one we've got now.
15
$70/hr for auto workers vs $20-odd for the average mid-west worker? Obviously the problem here is that...non auto-workers aren't getting enough benefits.
Rock on, Lansing Mayor dude.
Rock on, Lansing Mayor dude.
16
While it did seem like Bernero went off on his own tangents, I was very impressed by his fervor and passion for making sure that the residents of Lansing are taken care of. This is how an elected official should act.
17
Fucking awesome! He needs to go on Fox News more often. This guy used to be my mayor, and I'm sort of wishing he still were.
18
I would guess the mayor was given a list of questions in advance, and decided to blast through them one ahead of the interviewer.
The interviewer then tried to use that as a segue into what he had as the next question.
The interviewer then tried to use that as a segue into what he had as the next question.
20
is fox that cheap that they can't get a real satellite feed to the mayor?
but i like the product placement for Skype.
the mayor owned that interview. that's how all liberals interviewed on fox should conduct themselves. don't let fox get a work in. prove your point by dominating the interview
but i like the product placement for Skype.
the mayor owned that interview. that's how all liberals interviewed on fox should conduct themselves. don't let fox get a work in. prove your point by dominating the interview
21
Populist outrage can be nice, and sticking it to Fox News is better, but this whole debate missed the point. The UAW, auto manufacturers, and politicians in Washington made a Faustian bargain back in the 40s that led to our current healthcare crisis. Instead of forcing government to provide it like the rest of the industrialized world was doing at the time, unions--which had been politically neutered thanks to the Taft-Hartley Act--compromised to get employer-based benefits. The chickens are coming home to roost now, and very few people understand the history or the solution. The only sustainable, pro-business, pro-human solution is UNIVERSAL SINGLE-PAYER HEALTH INSURANCE. Government needs to shoulder this burden so that businesses don't have to be saddled with such high overhead that leads to losing $2,000/car because of the total suite of current and legacy health insurance and benefit costs American car manufacturers have to swallow. Universal single-payer health insurance is the 800-pound gorilla in the room no one wants to talk about because everyone's so concerned about Republican talking points about socialism. Well, I'm with Paul Krugman, move the middle!
22
@21,
Um, yeah, great - so a rotten deal was cut on healthcare way back in the 1940's.
Meanwhile, back in the real world of today, Mr. Bernero did a magnificent job of cutting Fox's itty-bitty balls off in this segment, and putting the onus back on management and stockholders to do at least something that involves personal sacrifice to solve a mess that is largely of their creation.
(And frankly, given everything that has come since Taft-Hartley, I can't help but find your placing blame for the subsequent failure of the US to move to a single-payer system on labor to be, shall I say, a bit disingenuous?)
We'll never get back to something even remotely approaching the mythical "center" without leaders like this making a case from the left. Forcefully.
Um, yeah, great - so a rotten deal was cut on healthcare way back in the 1940's.
Meanwhile, back in the real world of today, Mr. Bernero did a magnificent job of cutting Fox's itty-bitty balls off in this segment, and putting the onus back on management and stockholders to do at least something that involves personal sacrifice to solve a mess that is largely of their creation.
(And frankly, given everything that has come since Taft-Hartley, I can't help but find your placing blame for the subsequent failure of the US to move to a single-payer system on labor to be, shall I say, a bit disingenuous?)
We'll never get back to something even remotely approaching the mythical "center" without leaders like this making a case from the left. Forcefully.
25
Roseanne was set in Lanford, Illinois. Fictional town. By any account, though, there's not much difference between Lanford and Lansing.
26
That's how what's done, Dan? What's he trying to achieve? If he wants to entertain his fans on YouTube I suppose that shouting down the newsbot instead of answering his questions is effective. But if he's trying to nudge the Fox audience a bit more toward the center on this issue he's going to fail. Shouting only works on people who already agree with you.
27
Call me ignorant, yuiop, but aren't the usual viewers of Fox news the people who elected this mayor... generally, blue collar union worker types who want health care through their company?
I think some people make the mistake of assuming the Republican party is the party of Rich Guys, but I come from a conservative town where everyone is working to lower middle class. Seriously, the people who point out the identity crisis of the Republican party are not kiddin'.... and they all watch Fox News!
I think some people make the mistake of assuming the Republican party is the party of Rich Guys, but I come from a conservative town where everyone is working to lower middle class. Seriously, the people who point out the identity crisis of the Republican party are not kiddin'.... and they all watch Fox News!
29
You girls obviously got a rush from the manly mayor barking and howling.
enjoy your cheap thrills.
The mayor did not address the question, however-
The unions extorted and the automakers promised more benefits than they could afford.
The automakers have gone bust.
There is no money to pay the benefits.
The barking mayor doesn't have a plan to find the money.
Barking won't change the reality.
If this is what passes for a victory among the left I'll take defeat.
The Democratic welfare state is crashing all around.
California seems to have things other than homosexual marriage on it's mind lately.
It is a good time not to be in power.
The GOP is in the wilderness, and frankly needs to get back to it's core values.
The nation is in the wilderness, and it is going to get really ugly before it gets better.
Lions.
And Tigers.
And BEARS!
oh my.
The "sucking at a government tit" crowd are going to find the tit is dry.
The "guns and God and get government the hell out of my life" crowd won't be so bad off.
Bark at Fox if it makes you feel manly.
Maybe you can find a way to make barking pay for unemployment benefits and health care. But I doubt it.
We're heading into thick woods.
See you on the other side.
enjoy your cheap thrills.
The mayor did not address the question, however-
The unions extorted and the automakers promised more benefits than they could afford.
The automakers have gone bust.
There is no money to pay the benefits.
The barking mayor doesn't have a plan to find the money.
Barking won't change the reality.
If this is what passes for a victory among the left I'll take defeat.
The Democratic welfare state is crashing all around.
California seems to have things other than homosexual marriage on it's mind lately.
It is a good time not to be in power.
The GOP is in the wilderness, and frankly needs to get back to it's core values.
The nation is in the wilderness, and it is going to get really ugly before it gets better.
Lions.
And Tigers.
And BEARS!
oh my.
The "sucking at a government tit" crowd are going to find the tit is dry.
The "guns and God and get government the hell out of my life" crowd won't be so bad off.
Bark at Fox if it makes you feel manly.
Maybe you can find a way to make barking pay for unemployment benefits and health care. But I doubt it.
We're heading into thick woods.
See you on the other side.
30
Thank you @25. Completely forgot that they were Bears fans.
Suppose I was just twirling my finger into some early 90's hopeful lower middle class nostalgia eddies.
Suppose I was just twirling my finger into some early 90's hopeful lower middle class nostalgia eddies.
31
Wondered why an acquaintance of mine asked me if it's true that beginning wages for union auto workers is $70/hour.
Clearly he didn't understand the concept of "burdened wage rate", and it makes me wonder how many of the idots who listen to Faux News don't understand it either.
Clearly he didn't understand the concept of "burdened wage rate", and it makes me wonder how many of the idots who listen to Faux News don't understand it either.
32
Dan, I've been looking and looking for a video of your appearance on O'Reilly.
Does anyone have the link?
Does anyone have the link?
34
31
Clearly the guys who run the automakers didn't understand it since they are $30 Billion in the RED. Maybe the mayor can explain to them how to make it work?
Clearly the guys who run the automakers didn't understand it since they are $30 Billion in the RED. Maybe the mayor can explain to them how to make it work?
35
21 is right, folks. Unless the fundamentals of the situation change and the costs to the Big Three (GM, Chrysler, and Ford) are addressed, you might as well shut them down and liquidate and redeploy the capital to more promising enterprises. It's happened many times in this country, and it will happen again. Swift Meatpacking company was one of a few large, powerful firms back in the 20th century in the meatpacking and transporting industry. Their business model took advantage of the best technology of the time. Cattle were driven to Chicago or transported there by train. In Chicago the cattle were slaughtered and shipped whole in refrigerated rail cars back east. This model supported excellent unionized jobs for decades. Then a company called Iowa beef set up a shop in Iowa, closer to the source of the cattle, slaughtered and packed the beef in boxes for better stacking, and used trucks rather than trains to ship. Doing so was much, much cheaper and the model eliminated many unionized jobs. Swift and the other old-school packers didn't have a chance and they and their unionized jobs are effectively gone. I may have a few details of this story off, as I'm remembering it from a case I read in school, but I'm pretty sure that the lesson here applies: if a firm is facing competition from another firm with lower costs, and customers are able to understand the relative quality between the products (not a luxury good, for example), the firm with higher costs will be gone unless it can address its cost disadvantage.
So although you may enjoy seeing a Fox News anchor get railroaded by a mayor, the anchor was bringing up valid concerns about fundamental issues with our auto industry. I detest Fox News in general, but here the anchor was trying to engage the mayor in a thoughtful conversation about an important core issue. Isn't this the sort of approach you advocate in general and on Slog itself? Fox was the wronged party in this case. Sorry, Dan.
More...
So although you may enjoy seeing a Fox News anchor get railroaded by a mayor, the anchor was bringing up valid concerns about fundamental issues with our auto industry. I detest Fox News in general, but here the anchor was trying to engage the mayor in a thoughtful conversation about an important core issue. Isn't this the sort of approach you advocate in general and on Slog itself? Fox was the wronged party in this case. Sorry, Dan.
36
What a whiny ass. He sounds like he just read All the Kings Men and is spewing off Huey Long quotes like a 3 year old spews a new word s/he learns.
37
Oh Virg. I think he did kind of fly off the handle a bit prematurely, but it is good to see that he's so passionate. And those holes over at Fox deserve to get reamed anyway. I live in Lansing and I'm proud to have a mayor who genuinely cares about the people. =)
38
I don't think it was intelligent or effective at all. He went on with some prepared rants and failed to address the (really good) questions of the host. This mayor = Palin in the VP debate. American car companies are running their companies badly (losing $2,000 per car? is that right?) and now they want a bailout. He's defending their right to continue giving unsustainable benefits. Meanwhile, my company (and many others) are slashing benefits and staff. This mayor's ranting doesn't make that any more tolerable.
39
Would GM and Chrysler be bitching about the burdened wage rate if they had prudently and properly set up an endowment to cover legacy costs when they began guaranteeing them? D'ya think?
40
@38 He ranted about free trade vs. fair trade. If foreign companies had to pay their workers a decent wage (or add the cost of a tariff to the price of their cars) their cars would cost more to sell in the US and the big 3 could raise the price of their cars enough to be profitable and still compete in the US market. We can either spend the money to buy goods in the US and keep the money in our tax coffers or we can slowly impoverish the American workers and those relative few of us who still have decent jobs can spend more of our wages in taxes to help the greater numbers of working poor. I'd rather have everybody with a good job at a good wage with good benefits than have the masses dependent on government handouts. Republicans would prefer to piss on the working poor and hope that the poor can't gather enough torches and pitchforks to cause any trouble.
41
I detest the big 3. I remember asking my father at the tender age of 9 how they intend to stay in business when everything coming out of Japan (autowise) was so much more efficient, better quality and cheaper then anything we were producing. This is an issue that has been festering for generations now and I do agree they are reaping what they sew.
However this brilliant Mayor did a good job of pointing out what is now a tired rehtorical question about how they are gonna fix it by stating the question that needs to be asked is when are the fat cats on Wall street who ALSO receive health benefits for life, gonna start feeling the pain instead of blu collar people? Then he brilliantly continued to make his point that the larger picture is that of class warefare and the middle class is losing and currently has no strategy for winning. He continues to point out that the press (FOX NEWS) is part of the problem. Their failings to report anything but alarmist rhetoric, one sided points of view, and misleading ideas designed to redirect the attention of the busy populace away from important issues instead of encourageing diaglogue and holding all parties accountable by presenting a balanced factual argument. This is a man to watch in the future.
However this brilliant Mayor did a good job of pointing out what is now a tired rehtorical question about how they are gonna fix it by stating the question that needs to be asked is when are the fat cats on Wall street who ALSO receive health benefits for life, gonna start feeling the pain instead of blu collar people? Then he brilliantly continued to make his point that the larger picture is that of class warefare and the middle class is losing and currently has no strategy for winning. He continues to point out that the press (FOX NEWS) is part of the problem. Their failings to report anything but alarmist rhetoric, one sided points of view, and misleading ideas designed to redirect the attention of the busy populace away from important issues instead of encourageing diaglogue and holding all parties accountable by presenting a balanced factual argument. This is a man to watch in the future.
43
@38: Look again at the "losing $2000 per car" quote in this. The interviewer's non-question is "Workers make $70 per hour, THEREFORE GM is losing $2000 per car." (And it's a typical Fox non-question-- "don't you agree that...") What the good mayor is objecting to is that "THEREFORE". He points to some other reasons why the automakers are in trouble, besides wages and benefits for the average worker. Fox and other right-of-center sources keep highlighting one issue: "Union workers get benefits! Some can afford to send their kids to college! Who the hell do they think they are?"
The New York Post piece cited in this, by the way, is gibberish-- it starts by placing the blame with management, before injecting the $70 an hour figure out of nowhere (and unattributed):
http://www.nypost.com/seven/02172009/pos…
The New York Post piece cited in this, by the way, is gibberish-- it starts by placing the blame with management, before injecting the $70 an hour figure out of nowhere (and unattributed):
http://www.nypost.com/seven/02172009/pos…
44
well, yes, it was nice to see him go on the offensive against that annoying fox broadcaster. but, um, what are we supposed to take from that? that the gov should give more money to GM? the same GM that produced Hummers until recently? and because the gov made a mistake with wall street means that have to repeat that mistake for GM?
the way the employees are treated by GM i guess is a good thing. but the GM model, on whole, is not working. the fox guy is only wrong in suggesting that cutting worker benefits alone is a viable solution. i am glad the mayor stood up for the working people in his town regarding that point.
the way the employees are treated by GM i guess is a good thing. but the GM model, on whole, is not working. the fox guy is only wrong in suggesting that cutting worker benefits alone is a viable solution. i am glad the mayor stood up for the working people in his town regarding that point.
46
"$70/hr for auto workers vs $20-odd for the average mid-west worker? Obviously the problem here is that...non auto-workers aren't getting enough benefits.
Rock on, Lansing Mayor dude."
I found that interesting too, but maybe for a different reason. That referenced quote, as lifted directly from the Fox segment...
"...the overall per worker burden of the Big Three is upward of $70 per hour - compared to the $27.34 an hour earned by the average private sector worker in the upper Midwest..."
...is it's not a fair comparison. The cost of employing a person (i.e. wages, benefits, overhead, etc) is not the same as what that person gets paid.
Maybe the quoted Post piece offers additional information to make the comparison more equitable (which I don't believe), but as written that statement is incredibly misleading.
dp
Rock on, Lansing Mayor dude."
I found that interesting too, but maybe for a different reason. That referenced quote, as lifted directly from the Fox segment...
"...the overall per worker burden of the Big Three is upward of $70 per hour - compared to the $27.34 an hour earned by the average private sector worker in the upper Midwest..."
...is it's not a fair comparison. The cost of employing a person (i.e. wages, benefits, overhead, etc) is not the same as what that person gets paid.
Maybe the quoted Post piece offers additional information to make the comparison more equitable (which I don't believe), but as written that statement is incredibly misleading.
dp
47
$70/hr actually isn't all that much if it represents a burdened wage (i.e. employee takes home maybe half that).
Let's not forget the real reason the Big Three are suffering: They make shit cars that nobody wants. That is the root of the problem. Their management decisions have lacked vision, and they have not adjusted their product to meet market demands.
Now that they can't sell cars, all anyone is talking about is $70/hr.
Let's not forget the real reason the Big Three are suffering: They make shit cars that nobody wants. That is the root of the problem. Their management decisions have lacked vision, and they have not adjusted their product to meet market demands.
Now that they can't sell cars, all anyone is talking about is $70/hr.
48
@45 well, if so, that doesn't offer a defense for the GM workers he is in that interview to represent.
49
@47 It costs money to make good cars. If you're spending a considerably lower sum of money on your workers you can spend more on quality and still be cheaper than the US automakers. Anyone have the figures on what auto assembly workers in China are making? If importers had to compete on a level playing field as far as labor costs are concerned, their cars would be more expensive to buy, and it's possible that US auto makers could improve quality and still be competitive.
Now if you don't mind auto workers making shit wages and putting a tip jar in every Chevy, then quality can possibly be improved quite a bit. And instead of spending money on the car, you can pay their health benefits in taxes. Does it matter where the money goes when it goes?
Now if you don't mind auto workers making shit wages and putting a tip jar in every Chevy, then quality can possibly be improved quite a bit. And instead of spending money on the car, you can pay their health benefits in taxes. Does it matter where the money goes when it goes?
50
@49:
I don't quite follow your logic here. Reducing employee wages to a level equivalent to what's currently being paid in China wouldn't translate, in my mind at least, to improved quality.
Sure, there might be additional monies available to build-in quality improvements, but if the people actually putting the car together are being paid shit wages, it seems like you're simply trading off better design and materials for inferior assembly, which one would think would result in a net "wash" so far as the quality issue goes.
I don't quite follow your logic here. Reducing employee wages to a level equivalent to what's currently being paid in China wouldn't translate, in my mind at least, to improved quality.
Sure, there might be additional monies available to build-in quality improvements, but if the people actually putting the car together are being paid shit wages, it seems like you're simply trading off better design and materials for inferior assembly, which one would think would result in a net "wash" so far as the quality issue goes.
51
Someone finally out-Foxed Fox News!
He never stopped talking, no matter what the newsreader did or said. THAT is how conservatives act and get heard. Never let the newsboy control the discussion. I loved that frustrated look on his face! How I wish that more Democrats and progressives would follow this example and never let the Faux News talking head get a chance to push his talking points.
And kudos to the mayor for telling it like it is!
He never stopped talking, no matter what the newsreader did or said. THAT is how conservatives act and get heard. Never let the newsboy control the discussion. I loved that frustrated look on his face! How I wish that more Democrats and progressives would follow this example and never let the Faux News talking head get a chance to push his talking points.
And kudos to the mayor for telling it like it is!
52
I still can't believe that everyone is praising him for talking over the interviewer and pushing his agenda no matter what the question. When Palin did that in the VP debate, people were so frustrated and annoyed (and her supporters were like "yeah, way to control the debate!"). I personally find it frustrating and annoying no matter who does it. Answer the question that is asked and if the question is unfair or skewed, say so and back that up. It doesn't take any brains to do what this guy did, just a prepared script and a defensive attitude.
53
I'd love to see Nickels on Fox News. The guy would probably break down in tears saying, "bbbbut I outlawed plastic bottles at city hall...."
55
The $70 for auto workers vs. $20 for other midwestern workers stat is bs. It ignores a key variable: the profitability of the respective industries. Back in the day when all those benefits and pay raises were won by the union, the auto companies were immensely profitable. So of course their workers were paid lots more than other workers; they were more productive.
I love the synergy of Murdoch-owned TV quoting Murdoch-owned newspaper editorials as if they are independent, objective news.
Way to go, Mr. Mayor.
I love the synergy of Murdoch-owned TV quoting Murdoch-owned newspaper editorials as if they are independent, objective news.
Way to go, Mr. Mayor.
56
It costs money to DEVELOP good cars. What floors me is that the whole Americans get paid too much and thus are unable to compete with Japan or Canada (the real elephant in the room!!!)
I can almost buy it being cheaper to outsource to Mexico or China or whatever, but Japan and Canada! Japan outsourced their manufacturing to the US for tarrif/salary reasons! Do you know how expensive everything is in Japan? And to have the audacity to claim its because they work for cheap over there? No, it's because Japan ... well engineers better. They selectively say, this doesn't need to be steel but this does. They have industrial inovation, something America lacks and something America needs to rediscover (and pay for at the expense of the huge executive salaries!)
Canada, the elephant in the room, is developing an industrial base because they are geographically close to the US marke AND have universal health care coverage!
Two VERY simple solutions.
As far as the discussion, it was basically out foxing fox news. If they want it to be a rhetoric chest thumping gorilla match, then so be it!
I can almost buy it being cheaper to outsource to Mexico or China or whatever, but Japan and Canada! Japan outsourced their manufacturing to the US for tarrif/salary reasons! Do you know how expensive everything is in Japan? And to have the audacity to claim its because they work for cheap over there? No, it's because Japan ... well engineers better. They selectively say, this doesn't need to be steel but this does. They have industrial inovation, something America lacks and something America needs to rediscover (and pay for at the expense of the huge executive salaries!)
Canada, the elephant in the room, is developing an industrial base because they are geographically close to the US marke AND have universal health care coverage!
Two VERY simple solutions.
As far as the discussion, it was basically out foxing fox news. If they want it to be a rhetoric chest thumping gorilla match, then so be it!
57
when is this country going to realize that we need a national healthcare. Were still paying for it with bailouts anyway
59
This guy has my vote for president 2012, hopefully on a Labor Party ticket. Woooooooo!!! I'm in love!
60
Okay, I approve of the way he tore into that Fox ass. I also approve of his way of telling it like it is re: unfair trade practices and the double-standard of industry in America. I agree with everything he said about the total lack of accountability on Wall Street and in Washington, and I really like his fire in saying it.
Although I do have to ask: why was he speaking of himself as a representative of the auto industry rather than as a mayor? I'm pretty sure that as an elected official, he represents more than just the automakers. I don't like the American auto industry; I think it's outdated, unresponsive, stupid, and deeply unsustainable, not to mention the fact that it exists on an entirely artificial basis as the remnant of WWII wartime production in the first place. There's no reason for cars to be the centerpiece of our economy any more. Maybe it's time for the auto industry to suck it up and accept a natural contraction?
Although I do have to ask: why was he speaking of himself as a representative of the auto industry rather than as a mayor? I'm pretty sure that as an elected official, he represents more than just the automakers. I don't like the American auto industry; I think it's outdated, unresponsive, stupid, and deeply unsustainable, not to mention the fact that it exists on an entirely artificial basis as the remnant of WWII wartime production in the first place. There's no reason for cars to be the centerpiece of our economy any more. Maybe it's time for the auto industry to suck it up and accept a natural contraction?
61
@52
Agreed, albeit reluctantly. I mean, I understand the guy's frustration, and I don't think that Fox ever plays fair in interviews, but he did exhibit a certain lack of basic courtesy by overrunning the interviewer.
Agreed, albeit reluctantly. I mean, I understand the guy's frustration, and I don't think that Fox ever plays fair in interviews, but he did exhibit a certain lack of basic courtesy by overrunning the interviewer.
62
Detroit is crumbling, it's a combination of the unions and the manufacturers, but the unions will have to make major concessions or else all autoworkers will lose their jobs sooner rather than later.
63
The guy is good, and it's fun to see that happen to FOX, but the only thing keeping Lansing from being the next Flint is the fact that it is the state capital.
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