Slog
News & ArtsSunday, February 15, 2009
At Large Faked Out
Posted by Dan Savage on Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 7:17 PM
Sitting in the fake Irish pub, eating my fake Irish chow ("Irish white cheddar" makes a burger Irish—who knew?), drinking my real Irish beer. Two women at the next table are talking up Jesus. They're trying to save a man's soul from the dark and sinister clutches of... I think he said "lapsed Catholicism" but I'm not sure. This fake Irish pub is located in the actual American south, and overhearing conversations like this is known risk of venturing outside your hotel room. I go back to my book.
But my ears perk up when the man cites the gays as one reason he can't quite see himself converting to... whatever strain of Christianity the two women were pushing. Knowing what we know now about sex and what science tells us about what makes people gay—he's referring back to an earlier point he made concerning what we know about the age of the planet and the evolution of the species ("God gave us brains and reason for a reason, so we could figure these things out based on the science and evidence, right?")—it seems to him that putting people to death for being gay, per the bible, is, "a little cruel."
No, no: the bible is without error. And if our nation were more Godly, if bible-believing people would only stand up for what's right... well, we might not be putting gay people to death, say the girls, we wouldn't be stoning them and stuff, but we would ban gay sex and gay marriage and gay adoption and gay/straight student alliances and repeal all gay rights laws and keep gay characters off the TV. Not out of Old-Testament style vengefulness, but out of New-Testament style love and compassion and concern. Because if persecuting homosexuals—a.k.a. "fighting back against the gay agenda"—convinces even one gay person to leave their lifestyle and come back to God, "it would save a soul."
I set my burger down. "Hello, I'm a fag," I say. I assure them that I'm not angry or upset or hurt by anything that they've said. I just wanted them to know that I was sitting there, a big fag, eating my Irish burger within earshot. "And you're free to think I'm going to hell and say so while I'm forced to listen. But I'm free to think you're ridiculous and that your God is a delusion and say so while you're forced to listen."
One of the young women assured me that they didn't mean anything they'd said, you know, personally. "And I'll be praying hard for you," the other one of said, giving me a wink.
"And I'll be fucking butt for you," I replied, winking back.
4
thank you, dan, for fighting the fight one person at a time... it's easy to be pro-gay everything inside the echo chamber, so kudos to you for being a good example for not just passively letting an opportunity like this pass. well done.
6
This is awesome, Dan. Just great. I've become a lot more likely to speak up these days; I've just had it.
I HATE it when people tell me they're praying for me--outside of legit reasons like when someone's going through a hard time. You just came up with what is, in appropriate circumstances, a fabulous response.
I HATE it when people tell me they're praying for me--outside of legit reasons like when someone's going through a hard time. You just came up with what is, in appropriate circumstances, a fabulous response.
8
Good for you for speaking up. Sorry, you had to hear it. It's my opinion, not that it matters, that you aren't going to hell for "fucking butt".
10
What were these ladies of the church doing in a bar?
Great Grandmother Vel-DuRay became a Salvation Army member so that she could go in search of Great Grandfather Vel-DuRay - that was the only way a lady could be seen in a bar in THOSE days....
Great Grandmother Vel-DuRay became a Salvation Army member so that she could go in search of Great Grandfather Vel-DuRay - that was the only way a lady could be seen in a bar in THOSE days....
12
We found some protesters outside the Science Center on Thursday (protesting Darwin/evolution, I think, because of the Lucy exhibit and Darwin's 200th birthday). As we walked past, with our two kids, I couldn't resist saying "We're going to teach our kids all about SCIENCE!" Not quite the same thing, but also rewarding.
The Lucy exhibit is great, btw. And only there until 3/8. Catch it before it's gone!
The Lucy exhibit is great, btw. And only there until 3/8. Catch it before it's gone!
14
That's an awesome story, and I think that confrontations of that sort are essential for winning the war of hearts and minds in less likely places such as the Bible Belt.
That said, one thing I wrestle with is how to respond to such things in situations that could compromise your own livelihood. I.e., when you are not a visitor, but when your social (and therefore economic) standing depends to some extent on deference to local norms. Honest question.
That said, one thing I wrestle with is how to respond to such things in situations that could compromise your own livelihood. I.e., when you are not a visitor, but when your social (and therefore economic) standing depends to some extent on deference to local norms. Honest question.
15
I wish I were a boy so I could say this and it would make any sense. Because those labies don't know what "Pegging" is, probably.
20
12
Science Rocks.
Are you going to teach your kids that conception creates a new member of the human race and that embryo research and abortion kill that life?
Science Rocks.
Are you going to teach your kids that conception creates a new member of the human race and that embryo research and abortion kill that life?
22
12
Science totally Rocks!
What are you going to teach them about the awkward fact that homosexual behavior is non reproductive and if there were such a thing as a homosexual it would be a biological dead-end defect unable to reproduce?
Science totally Rocks!
What are you going to teach them about the awkward fact that homosexual behavior is non reproductive and if there were such a thing as a homosexual it would be a biological dead-end defect unable to reproduce?
23
12
SCIENCE!
BooYah!
Are you going to share with your kids that anal intercourse is a biological perversion, that while a vagina is designed to accommodate a penis the anus is biologically not designed to be used that way?
SCIENCE!
BooYah!
Are you going to share with your kids that anal intercourse is a biological perversion, that while a vagina is designed to accommodate a penis the anus is biologically not designed to be used that way?
24
troll @ 20, 22, 23
Conception does not result in life. Birth does.
Reproduction is not the be-all, end-all of sex.
Sex that occurs in nature, as homosexual sex does, can not, by definition, be a biological perversion. Not that anti-science twerps care about what is biological and what is not.
Conception does not result in life. Birth does.
Reproduction is not the be-all, end-all of sex.
Sex that occurs in nature, as homosexual sex does, can not, by definition, be a biological perversion. Not that anti-science twerps care about what is biological and what is not.
25
Tell them Science(and some other things that religion hates) is a bull horn that gives people the courage to tell others to BACK THE FUCK OFF. Tell them THAT.
26
Love it!!! My favorite part is that you interrupted their offensive conversation to insert a bit of truth. Also, I love that the guy was fighting the good fight! Kudos to him too. Straight allies rock!!
Whenever I encounter Christians who try to convert me, I always ask them about their church's stance on gay rights. When they hem and haw about how they believe what the Bible says, I tell them that my God believes that all people are equal and that includes gay people.
I say that my God believes that gays should be able to get married and have equal rights. I also say that I am unwilling to join a church where the God is not a loving God.
That always scares them off.
Whenever I encounter Christians who try to convert me, I always ask them about their church's stance on gay rights. When they hem and haw about how they believe what the Bible says, I tell them that my God believes that all people are equal and that includes gay people.
I say that my God believes that gays should be able to get married and have equal rights. I also say that I am unwilling to join a church where the God is not a loving God.
That always scares them off.
27
Gawd, I cannot wait for tomorrow. More butt-fucking, less inane trollish dick-dickery!
PS, Fucking Butt for Your Soul. Is that a bumper sticker? Can you have swear words on your car?
PS, Fucking Butt for Your Soul. Is that a bumper sticker? Can you have swear words on your car?
28
Howdy Dan.
I agree you have to win hearts and minds over one at a time... but I'm not sure you won a battle here. If anything, didn't you reinforce the sterotype that gay people are incredibly defensive, snarky, and not interested in anyone else's opinion?
That isn't to say these two women were in the right. And yes, I know, that whole "No more Ms. Nice Fag" thing. But don't you think it would have gone a lot further to fight fire with fire.... what I mean is, take their New Testament message of unconditional love and forgiveness of sins, even at the moment of death, and turn it back on them... politely, sincerely, and patiently?
I fear that all your little snark did was cement their idea that gay people are ignorant of these things, and just trying to further their own "sinful" agenda. They'll go home sniggering about the bitter fag (and even unable to hear what tone you might have said this in, it sounds tinged with bitterness and just a little vengeful, even if playful) instead of seeing that their own twisted ideas on God's love was wounding another of God's children.
.... And for the record, you weren't forced to listen. You choose to listen. I believe they call it evaesdropping.
I agree you have to win hearts and minds over one at a time... but I'm not sure you won a battle here. If anything, didn't you reinforce the sterotype that gay people are incredibly defensive, snarky, and not interested in anyone else's opinion?
That isn't to say these two women were in the right. And yes, I know, that whole "No more Ms. Nice Fag" thing. But don't you think it would have gone a lot further to fight fire with fire.... what I mean is, take their New Testament message of unconditional love and forgiveness of sins, even at the moment of death, and turn it back on them... politely, sincerely, and patiently?
I fear that all your little snark did was cement their idea that gay people are ignorant of these things, and just trying to further their own "sinful" agenda. They'll go home sniggering about the bitter fag (and even unable to hear what tone you might have said this in, it sounds tinged with bitterness and just a little vengeful, even if playful) instead of seeing that their own twisted ideas on God's love was wounding another of God's children.
.... And for the record, you weren't forced to listen. You choose to listen. I believe they call it evaesdropping.
29
Dan: I just emailed Savage love tonight because of a similarly related "suthrn" experience of this church in N. Little Rock http://www.mercyscross.com/ having this sermon next Sunday. http://www.fox16.com/news/local/story/Ch…
I wanted to share my frustration at what I imagine is going on in there and say I wish you were there to talk to them. This real life story you told is what I imagine you would say to some of the issues they bring up. You free next Sunday? Cause I would so go watch that happen.
Best,
Drew in AR
P.S. keep it coming! And maybe Bill Maher can get the film crew to show up to record what happens when you show up.
I wanted to share my frustration at what I imagine is going on in there and say I wish you were there to talk to them. This real life story you told is what I imagine you would say to some of the issues they bring up. You free next Sunday? Cause I would so go watch that happen.
Best,
Drew in AR
P.S. keep it coming! And maybe Bill Maher can get the film crew to show up to record what happens when you show up.
30
24
The ability to reproduce is an essential trait of living organisms. All sexual behavior need not lead to reproduction but all living organisms must be able to reproduce.
If there were such a thing as 'homosexuals' (as opposed to people who engage in homosexual acts) they would be unable to reproduce. They would be dead-end biological defects.
Of course, so-called homosexuals can reproduce as well as anyone else. 'Homosexual' is just a thing they do.
The ability to reproduce is an essential trait of living organisms. All sexual behavior need not lead to reproduction but all living organisms must be able to reproduce.
If there were such a thing as 'homosexuals' (as opposed to people who engage in homosexual acts) they would be unable to reproduce. They would be dead-end biological defects.
Of course, so-called homosexuals can reproduce as well as anyone else. 'Homosexual' is just a thing they do.
31
@28- I think that just identifying as gay to these people goes a long way. For these people, gay is an idea, a concept to be hummed and hawed over, and not the man sitting next to you enjoying a burger. Gays are humans and unfortunately some christians need a lot of reminding about that.
I can only relate my experience as a native person, but whenever I hear people making fun of native people I go up to them and tell them that I am native. I don't engage them in debate, or try to educate them- that is their job, not mine- but I let them know that we are here, we notice what they are saying, and it is unacceptable.
I can only relate my experience as a native person, but whenever I hear people making fun of native people I go up to them and tell them that I am native. I don't engage them in debate, or try to educate them- that is their job, not mine- but I let them know that we are here, we notice what they are saying, and it is unacceptable.
32
28
Not only defensive, snarky and narrowminded but totally crude and vulgar.
Smart Asses seldom impress their audience nearly as much as they impress themselves.
Not only defensive, snarky and narrowminded but totally crude and vulgar.
Smart Asses seldom impress their audience nearly as much as they impress themselves.
33
@30- some of the people here are actually science professionals, so please don't try to pull this bullshit.
36
@30,
if the only purpose of life is to procreate (and i can guarantee it isn't, just ask all the wonderful straight people who happen to be infertile) i hope that you never have kids. because passing on your genes would guaranty they have the lowest i.q. possible. inbreeding is a bad, bad thing.
also, by your standards, masturbation is murder. so i'm going to start a holocaust in my hand.
if the only purpose of life is to procreate (and i can guarantee it isn't, just ask all the wonderful straight people who happen to be infertile) i hope that you never have kids. because passing on your genes would guaranty they have the lowest i.q. possible. inbreeding is a bad, bad thing.
also, by your standards, masturbation is murder. so i'm going to start a holocaust in my hand.
38
Even a hard hearted troll has to blush and be embarrassed by the gushing adoration you girls heap on Danny.
There is nothing like the infatuation Cult groupies have for their master.
There is nothing like the infatuation Cult groupies have for their master.
39
I think we should all try hard to double or triple the abortion rate. There are way too many people and babies are gross.
41
39
Yes.
Liberals slaughter their own young at an impressive rate. It bodes well for the future of the species.
Yes.
Liberals slaughter their own young at an impressive rate. It bodes well for the future of the species.
43
Fire up that vacuum cleaner and suck out those baby wannabes! Mandatory abortions for all! Especially the Christian freaks - they're the ones that grow up to be a drain on society anyway.
44
@28 - that's the whole point. we've been good little fags and lezbos for generations now and where does it get us? from on, we are who we are, and we'll need to say it out loud at every opportunity, then simply let the chips fall where they may. if anyone wants to generalize that all gays are bitter, well, that's known as bigotry and we need to call them out on it. anything else is simply feeding into the victim mentality set up by the bible thumpers. done!
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43
Sorry, Charlie.
By and large it is the heathens that pass their children into the inferno of Baal.
Sorry, Charlie.
By and large it is the heathens that pass their children into the inferno of Baal.
47
45, it's too bad your daddy missed your mama's butthole that time and she got pregnant with you.
If she wasn't such a dumb box, she could have gotten an abortion - just like she did that one time with grandpa - and we wouldn't have to deal with you.
If she wasn't such a dumb box, she could have gotten an abortion - just like she did that one time with grandpa - and we wouldn't have to deal with you.
48
Is this just because No Dick Day is coming? Everyone's getting it out of their system? Slog seems to be a bit... yikes. More than usual.
50
49, That's not what your mama told me when I was giving her that dirty sanchez. Man, she loves to rim!
51
troll @ 30,
Your twisted rationalizations, even if accepted at face value, give no reason for opposing any gay rights. That's why you're an endangered species, no matter how many children you and your ilk squirt out.
Your twisted rationalizations, even if accepted at face value, give no reason for opposing any gay rights. That's why you're an endangered species, no matter how many children you and your ilk squirt out.
52
51
What stake does society have in granting preferential status (aka marriage) to individuals who choose to engage in homosexual behavior?
What stake does society have in granting preferential status (aka marriage) to individuals who choose to engage in homosexual behavior?
53
troll @ 52,
Two things wrong with your statement.
One, there's nothing preferential about granting equal rights to all.
Two, although gays do "choose" to have gay sex (like straights choose to have straight sex), the implication that being gay is itself a choice is intellectually dishonest.
That said, what stake does society have in conferring rights on some (straights) but not others (gays)?
Two things wrong with your statement.
One, there's nothing preferential about granting equal rights to all.
Two, although gays do "choose" to have gay sex (like straights choose to have straight sex), the implication that being gay is itself a choice is intellectually dishonest.
That said, what stake does society have in conferring rights on some (straights) but not others (gays)?
54
Society gives married couples benefits not extended to single individuals.
It began doing this to assist families with the financial cost of raising children.
What does society gain from extending those preferential advantages to affluent DINK homosexual couples?
It began doing this to assist families with the financial cost of raising children.
What does society gain from extending those preferential advantages to affluent DINK homosexual couples?
55
@43 -- "Mandatory abortions for all"
That is so my line; I've been saying it for years. I wonder if we came up with it at the same time* or if I've managed to spread it farther than I had imagined?
Either way, keep spreading the gospel!
*Pretty much every good idea is happened upon by more than one person.
That is so my line; I've been saying it for years. I wonder if we came up with it at the same time* or if I've managed to spread it farther than I had imagined?
Either way, keep spreading the gospel!
*Pretty much every good idea is happened upon by more than one person.
58
@ 28, "eaves dropping" is not something that occurs in public places, particularly if the people doing the talking aren't keeping their voices low.
Make a note, people - if you don't want people listening in on your conversations, then hold them in private. Restaurants (and bars, and coffee shops, and so on) aren't private places, so you have no reasonable expectation to privacy there.
Make a note, people - if you don't want people listening in on your conversations, then hold them in private. Restaurants (and bars, and coffee shops, and so on) aren't private places, so you have no reasonable expectation to privacy there.
60
Dan, I'm torn between commending you and condemning you for what you said.
On the one hand, more Christian types (especially in the south) need to see that gay folks are just as normal as they are. They go to the fake Irish pubs, hold regular jobs, and are otherwise productive members of society. I have a friend who is gay (and southern) and when another friend met him and later found out her reaction was, "But he seems so normal!" I replied that that is because he is normal. She was genuinely shocked that he wasn't dressed flamboyantly, speaking with a lisp an effeminate voice, and mincing about. I think it might have given her a slightly new perspective.
On the other hand, if you in fact made that last comment you said you made...well, you probably destroyed any good will and changed perspective that you might have built. I'll grant you that telling total strangers that you'll be praying for them is annoying (I'm a practcing Christian, and I would never say that to someone who wouldn't appreciate it for whatever reason), but responding the way you did just gave the fuel for the fire of their prejudice. You left them with the impression that gays are arrogant, promiscuous dicks. That doesn't help.
On the third hand (or appendage of your choice), I'm not real happy with my fellow churchgoers today, one of whom decided that I hated women who choose to stay at home with their children because I said that the reality is that most women from my generation (late 20's through late 40's) choose to work outside the home, and we need to be sensitive to that when planning programming.
On the one hand, more Christian types (especially in the south) need to see that gay folks are just as normal as they are. They go to the fake Irish pubs, hold regular jobs, and are otherwise productive members of society. I have a friend who is gay (and southern) and when another friend met him and later found out her reaction was, "But he seems so normal!" I replied that that is because he is normal. She was genuinely shocked that he wasn't dressed flamboyantly, speaking with a lisp an effeminate voice, and mincing about. I think it might have given her a slightly new perspective.
On the other hand, if you in fact made that last comment you said you made...well, you probably destroyed any good will and changed perspective that you might have built. I'll grant you that telling total strangers that you'll be praying for them is annoying (I'm a practcing Christian, and I would never say that to someone who wouldn't appreciate it for whatever reason), but responding the way you did just gave the fuel for the fire of their prejudice. You left them with the impression that gays are arrogant, promiscuous dicks. That doesn't help.
On the third hand (or appendage of your choice), I'm not real happy with my fellow churchgoers today, one of whom decided that I hated women who choose to stay at home with their children because I said that the reality is that most women from my generation (late 20's through late 40's) choose to work outside the home, and we need to be sensitive to that when planning programming.
61
You can pat yourself on the back all you want, and it is a funny story, but you weren't "forced" to listen to them. It was you, not they, who got up and went to the next table to espouse your opinion. Funny story, dick move.
63
But you should never fuck butt for someone else! You should only do it if you feel it's right for you.
65
Great Dan!
It sucks that you weren't able to just eat your Irish burger in peace, but I think you have to strike when the iron's hot, even it it interrupts dinner.
I don't know if you changed anyone's mind, but I think you did the right thing and I'm cheering for you!
It sucks that you weren't able to just eat your Irish burger in peace, but I think you have to strike when the iron's hot, even it it interrupts dinner.
I don't know if you changed anyone's mind, but I think you did the right thing and I'm cheering for you!
66
@33 et al.
Science professional here. Evolutionary biologist. PhD candidate. Not the final word on anything by any means but maybe a representative voice. Also a scientific skeptic and an (agnostic) atheist, for what it's worth.
Homosexuality is a behavior. Homosexuals are individuals who are inclined toward that behavior. Attempting to make a distinction that separates these two is meaningless. Pretense toward understanding what does or does not occur in the human mind is nothing short of hubris, and to claim to do so in the name of science only reveals your own ignorance of the state of modern neuroscience.
As for your absurd statements that seem to be trying to hide behind a veneer of evolutionary biology, please just stop trying, because you're not fooling anyone and you're making me feel faintly sick. What you're claiming essentially assumes that homosexuals are a separate species, which is ludicrous on its face, or that homosexuality must either be an illusion or attributable to a single classically Mendelian gene, which is a farcical false dichotomy. Either way you clearly have exactly as much knowledge of genetics as you might glean in a high school science course taught in a small town school in, say, Louisiana or Mississippi, which is to say, virtually none that is correct and little enough that's even recognizable as close but wrong.
Even if you had the faintest idea what you're talking about - and you don't, let's be clear on that - nature has nothing to teach us about morality. Science, as you'd know if you were even passingly familiar with it, is descriptive, not prescriptive. Attempting to use arguments about the probable survival of homosexuality in a given population as a basis for claiming that homosexuality is wrong or immoral is as risible as claiming that Newtonian mechanics imply that it is immoral to fly.
More...
Science professional here. Evolutionary biologist. PhD candidate. Not the final word on anything by any means but maybe a representative voice. Also a scientific skeptic and an (agnostic) atheist, for what it's worth.
Homosexuality is a behavior. Homosexuals are individuals who are inclined toward that behavior. Attempting to make a distinction that separates these two is meaningless. Pretense toward understanding what does or does not occur in the human mind is nothing short of hubris, and to claim to do so in the name of science only reveals your own ignorance of the state of modern neuroscience.
As for your absurd statements that seem to be trying to hide behind a veneer of evolutionary biology, please just stop trying, because you're not fooling anyone and you're making me feel faintly sick. What you're claiming essentially assumes that homosexuals are a separate species, which is ludicrous on its face, or that homosexuality must either be an illusion or attributable to a single classically Mendelian gene, which is a farcical false dichotomy. Either way you clearly have exactly as much knowledge of genetics as you might glean in a high school science course taught in a small town school in, say, Louisiana or Mississippi, which is to say, virtually none that is correct and little enough that's even recognizable as close but wrong.
Even if you had the faintest idea what you're talking about - and you don't, let's be clear on that - nature has nothing to teach us about morality. Science, as you'd know if you were even passingly familiar with it, is descriptive, not prescriptive. Attempting to use arguments about the probable survival of homosexuality in a given population as a basis for claiming that homosexuality is wrong or immoral is as risible as claiming that Newtonian mechanics imply that it is immoral to fly.
67
now that it is past midnight, can someone just block the dick who keeps arguing with himself throughout this thread, using 6 or 7 different names -- all belligerent fucks? Is that what no dick day is about?
68
Well done, Mr. Savage.
Now, every time that sanctimonious little Jeebuz freak begins to twist the dial to her private wavelength to Teh Almighty, she's going to suddenly think of you and the butt-sex, which will totally throw her off the frequency!
Every little act of subversion has an effect...
Now, every time that sanctimonious little Jeebuz freak begins to twist the dial to her private wavelength to Teh Almighty, she's going to suddenly think of you and the butt-sex, which will totally throw her off the frequency!
Every little act of subversion has an effect...
70
66
Were homosexuality an innate genetic trait, as Dan would have the world believe, homosexuals could DEMAND their CIVIL RIGHTS!
Because being homosexual would be like being black.
But if homosexuality is a choice then it is not so easy.
Polygamist don't get to demand that they be allowed to practice polygamy. Polygamy is something they chose to do. And society's rules that govern behavior apply.
darn
Does Biology relate to morality?
If you believe that killing a human (a 'homo sapiens') is wrong then it matters a lot when life begins. Matters and is really easy to find out.
It would be immoral to condemn or discriminate against someone for a biological trait they had no control over. Their race. Gender. Eye color.
It is appropriate to regulate behavior. How fast we drive. How much we drink. Who (and how many whos) we marry.
What is ludicrous on its face is the notion that there is a state of being one could call 'homosexual'. That people 'ARE' homosexual. As you note, anyone who stayed awake thru 9th grade Biology could tell you that is hogwash.
Homosexual behavior is a choice people make.
Good luck with the PhD. If you really are scientific skeptic you will have to swim upstream in an academic environment eaten up with Liberal PC presumptions. The true seeker of truth in today's universities faces as much peril as did Galileo.
Were homosexuality an innate genetic trait, as Dan would have the world believe, homosexuals could DEMAND their CIVIL RIGHTS!
Because being homosexual would be like being black.
But if homosexuality is a choice then it is not so easy.
Polygamist don't get to demand that they be allowed to practice polygamy. Polygamy is something they chose to do. And society's rules that govern behavior apply.
darn
Does Biology relate to morality?
If you believe that killing a human (a 'homo sapiens') is wrong then it matters a lot when life begins. Matters and is really easy to find out.
It would be immoral to condemn or discriminate against someone for a biological trait they had no control over. Their race. Gender. Eye color.
It is appropriate to regulate behavior. How fast we drive. How much we drink. Who (and how many whos) we marry.
What is ludicrous on its face is the notion that there is a state of being one could call 'homosexual'. That people 'ARE' homosexual. As you note, anyone who stayed awake thru 9th grade Biology could tell you that is hogwash.
Homosexual behavior is a choice people make.
Good luck with the PhD. If you really are scientific skeptic you will have to swim upstream in an academic environment eaten up with Liberal PC presumptions. The true seeker of truth in today's universities faces as much peril as did Galileo.
71
"Act Up" flings blood on people and it is 'speaking truth to power- baby!'.
heroes
A couple of ladies in a bar sharing their faith with a friend, however, is something the PC speech police can not let pass.
Busybody Dan jumps up, digging his wadded up panties out of his leaky anus as he scurries over to let the nice ladies have a piece of his mind. (careful Dan, there's not too much to go around)
But that is just another day in the life of a petulant pissy nag, going about changing the world, one table at a time.
heroes
A couple of ladies in a bar sharing their faith with a friend, however, is something the PC speech police can not let pass.
Busybody Dan jumps up, digging his wadded up panties out of his leaky anus as he scurries over to let the nice ladies have a piece of his mind. (careful Dan, there's not too much to go around)
But that is just another day in the life of a petulant pissy nag, going about changing the world, one table at a time.
73
I always find it particularly grating to hear dicks ranting about "the Liberal Agenda! Goddamn LIBERAL AGENDA!" which, as far as I can tell, is to treat people with dignity and respect and keep ignorant and repressed motherfuckers from making the lives of others their business.
Wait, didn't that used to be the conservative agenda, like 150 years ago?
Wait, didn't that used to be the conservative agenda, like 150 years ago?
74
Um, lets say for the sake of argument that homosexuality is a choice. Why is it an immoral choice? Why do you care what other people are doing? If two men want to get married, why do you care? How does it affect you?
I'll use the analogy again because it drives the fundies crazy. Are folks who eat kosher forcing their religion on you? Do you care what they eat? Does it affect you? Should the practice be banned because only a minority of people do it? Is it any of your business? Why are the sex lives of gay people your business? Why do you care who gay people marry?
I'll use the analogy again because it drives the fundies crazy. Are folks who eat kosher forcing their religion on you? Do you care what they eat? Does it affect you? Should the practice be banned because only a minority of people do it? Is it any of your business? Why are the sex lives of gay people your business? Why do you care who gay people marry?
75
Logic does not work with the fundie mind set. They are under the illusion that America is a Christian nation and that the rest of us must kiss their butts. If they had their way they would impose a Xtian version of shira law in the U.S. They cannot accept the truth that we are a secular nation and that their buy-bull is just one point of view among many others.
77
71, really? Christians seem to have no problems stopping me on the street, and coming to my door, leaving Bible tracts, trying to push their beliefs on me. But for a gay person to speak up when people are talking about religious persecution of gay people, that is somehow wrong?
78
Sheesh, the person who wrote this is just as bad as the Christians! Haven't people ever heard that you more flies with honey than vinegar? Thanks alot...you've just made life harder for the rest of us fags...reaffirming their beliefs by being a douche bag to them.
79
77
Not wrong.
Just petulant, nosy and pissy.
Cause if the nice ladies want to sit there eating their Kosher what business is it of Dan's? Were they forcing Dan to eat the Kosher? Can they only eat 'Dan approved' Kosher?
Perhaps Dan gets off imagining he shocks the nice ladies with his foul mouth.
"Oooh- he said 'fag' and 'fucking butt'; pass the smelling salts!!"
Perhaps Dan is a potty mouth exibitionist? Can't keep the pie-hole zipped up, is that it, Dan?
Not wrong.
Just petulant, nosy and pissy.
Cause if the nice ladies want to sit there eating their Kosher what business is it of Dan's? Were they forcing Dan to eat the Kosher? Can they only eat 'Dan approved' Kosher?
Perhaps Dan gets off imagining he shocks the nice ladies with his foul mouth.
"Oooh- he said 'fag' and 'fucking butt'; pass the smelling salts!!"
Perhaps Dan is a potty mouth exibitionist? Can't keep the pie-hole zipped up, is that it, Dan?
80
#78 Do you think we should just shut up, sulk away and hide? That ain't going to happen. Speaking up as Dan Savage did helps people like you. We no longer must defer to Christian sensibilities. I hope younger gay and lesbian people who see Dan as a role model follow this example and confront bigotry. If Christians are behaving like douche bags it does no good to turn the othe cheek.
82
#80 No, but you aren't going to get anywhere by calling people's belief in God delusional and by telling them you are going to be fucking butt for them. It would have been better if, instead of saying something that would automatically make these people shut down and stop listening, he would have gone over and politely introduced himself then sat down and tried to engage them in an argument based on fact. That wouldn't have lasted too long most likely, because usually these Christians don't have any real arguments based on fact. Then they would have had the impression of a nice gay man who engaged them in a civil debate which they lost. Instead though, Dan had to get emotional and all that happened was an emotional exchange in which no ones ideas were challenged and each side came away more deeply entrenched in their own beliefs.
83
79, Where did anyone say the "nice ladies" couldn't say or think what they wanted? They were having a conversation in a public place, where anyone could hear them. All that happened is that someone in that public place responded to what they said. Oh the humanity.
Gay people should know that only straight Christian ladies are allowed to speak their minds in public places, and straight Christian ladies can say anything, no matter how insulting to people of different beliefs, and should never have to expect any sort of reaction from the folks being insulted.
Gay people should know that only straight Christian ladies are allowed to speak their minds in public places, and straight Christian ladies can say anything, no matter how insulting to people of different beliefs, and should never have to expect any sort of reaction from the folks being insulted.
84
#81 No, I'm not a concern troll. Just so you can have full disclosure, I am a gay 20 year old man who has been dating another guy for just over a year. I go to college on a conservative campus, so I come across these people all the time. I just try to give them the impression that gay people are pretty nice, pretty normal, and pretty good people. I just hope that one day they will have met enough gays who are "pretty nice and pretty normal" and realize that their beliefs are based on 2000 year old prejudices.
85
@84: I appreciate the strategy, winning one conservative over at a time. But it seems like constantly trying to project "nice and normal" is a pretty heavy burden one yourself. I'm sure you are very nice and normal, but molding all of your interactions to pander to people who often just aren't interested in engaging in reality seems like a less than efficient way to fight the good fight, no?
86
85
Lara, maybe Kevin IS nice and normal.
Dan is not the only flavor queers come in, or didn't you know.
Lara, maybe Kevin IS nice and normal.
Dan is not the only flavor queers come in, or didn't you know.
87
I don't mold all of my interactions to pander to everyone. I just accept the fact that I am VERY much in the minority where I am. It's difficult to not get emotionally aroused sometimes, but I just remind myself that their ideas are not my problem. It's also not my problem if others don't want to engage themselves in reality. If that is the case, then getting emotional like Dan did isn't going to help either....nothing will. However, if anyone IS engaged, then I think remaining calm will go much farther than getting emotional will. Anyways, I'm finished talking to people I can't even know, so I'm off. Hope everyone has a good Monday!
88
Kevin, based on what the ladies were saying (gay people should be made into criminals, have all rights revoked, and stop any civil rights advancements in the future, revoke free speech when it comes to presenting gay characters, and personalities in the media, etc, all based on their belief in an ancient mythology. We are talking about people who believe that then entire human race started with a single pair 6000 years ago.) do you really think there is any words or tactics that could have been used to change their minds?
89
Interesting story... AND... very old news for those of us who grew up amongst the southern Jesus freaks.
90
@ 84, I take it back and apologize.
Anyway, there's a time and place for tact and a time and place for confrontation. I've little doubt that these nice Christian ladies have already engaged with nice gays who basically followed your tactic. I've also little doubt that Dan made a more lasting impression with them than most of the other nice gays have.
It's not always about winning hearts and minds. And lest you or anyone else be concerned about these ladies using this story to illustrate the essentially bad character of gay men, you ought to keep in mind that that's what they already believe, and they have plenty of other things to point to (like all those gay pride parade pictures of dudes in bondage gear).
Anyway, there's a time and place for tact and a time and place for confrontation. I've little doubt that these nice Christian ladies have already engaged with nice gays who basically followed your tactic. I've also little doubt that Dan made a more lasting impression with them than most of the other nice gays have.
It's not always about winning hearts and minds. And lest you or anyone else be concerned about these ladies using this story to illustrate the essentially bad character of gay men, you ought to keep in mind that that's what they already believe, and they have plenty of other things to point to (like all those gay pride parade pictures of dudes in bondage gear).
91
88
so if you don't think any thing that could be said or done will change their mind why engage them?
just because you're a general asshole and want to show it as often as possible?
(you're wrong, however, most people do respond to reasonable discussion and kindness. it may not be as much fun as being an asshole but it is the only way to effect meaningful change in people's attitudes)
so if you don't think any thing that could be said or done will change their mind why engage them?
just because you're a general asshole and want to show it as often as possible?
(you're wrong, however, most people do respond to reasonable discussion and kindness. it may not be as much fun as being an asshole but it is the only way to effect meaningful change in people's attitudes)
92
troll @ 66,
If you want to share with us your story about how you chose heterosexuality, we'd be thrilled to hear about it.
If you want to share with us your story about how you chose heterosexuality, we'd be thrilled to hear about it.
93
#70
"Choose" to be gay if you're not...or "choose" to be straight if you're not. And then let us know how that all shakes out for you.
"Choose" to be gay if you're not...or "choose" to be straight if you're not. And then let us know how that all shakes out for you.
95
91, You engage them to show them that their words have consequences, and their hateful rhetoric won't go unchallenged. Gay people are done hiding, and pretending.
I'm sure they would have carried on a civil conversation, while in their minds condemning. It wouldn't have changed their minds though. As soon the gay person was out of earshot, they'd be again talking about making criminals of gay people.
I'm sure they would have carried on a civil conversation, while in their minds condemning. It wouldn't have changed their minds though. As soon the gay person was out of earshot, they'd be again talking about making criminals of gay people.
97
@66 - You rock. "Science" means back things up with observation & facts. Not reinforce preconceived ideas. The idea that humans are biologically heterosexual (whatever that means 94) is just so historically and factually wrong it makes makes my heart scream and gives me minor aneurysms in my brain. I wish everyone had a decent scientific education.
100
96, or option 3, experience with real people. I come from the south. It took army troops to integrate the schools. A nice talk with a gay man isn't going to get someone who thinks that gay people ought to be treated as criminals to change their mind.
102
100
A nice talk with a Southerner isn't going to get some bigoted faggot who thinks that Southerners ought to be treated as ignorant criminals to change their mind.
A nice talk with a Southerner isn't going to get some bigoted faggot who thinks that Southerners ought to be treated as ignorant criminals to change their mind.
103
You left them with the impression that gays are arrogant, promiscuous dicks
They already believe that.
They already believe that.
104
Do any of these interactions actually bring about change? (Perhaps, I'm feeling a bit defeated here.) At most can't we hope that an interaction, either like Dan's or like Kevin's style, can cause people to stop and reflect? Ninety precent of my attempts to engage calmly and respectfully, results in an exchange of ideas, but no change in belief. How does one discuss a position that disputes another's belief? The other ten percent end with my being informed that I'm going to burn in hell. I guess I'm hoping that those I engage will think about what I said, or at the very least think before they speak. Is this expecting too much.
105
Um 102, do you always make up things and attribute them to others? Where did I say anyone should be treated like a criminal? Or do you really believe that to disagree with someone is to think of them as a criminal? (That would explain a lot about you.)
106
um...*tapping watch*....aren't we 10 hours in to no-dick-monday (tm?)??? or does that only apply to initial slog posts made after midnight? can we get some clarification here???
107
It's everyone's responsibility to speak to bigotry. I can't tell for sure with what tone Dan approached the women but he did say that he assured them he wasn't upset or angry (implying calmness) . On Bill Mahr he spoke up to the Huckaby supporters he filmed in the south very plainly, but with a lot of charm. Those people seemed to like him and I'm sure that makes an impression. In any case--it's a responsibility we all have. And my guess is that Dan did it well. Once in high school I met my boyfriend's family and they all started talking about Jews. I spoke up and sweetly told them I was Jewish (I'm not), but it sure made them rethink the way that they talk, and possibly how they think--because they liked me alot. Maybe they hated me for it behind my back when I fessed up that I wasn't really--but my boyfriend (one of the guilty parties) said otherwise and said it made him look more closely at himself. Maybe it really didn't--I was a kid and maybe could have done it a better way-- but it would have been wrong to sit there and say nothing. You always have to say something--even if it's just to politely say you are not in agreement so there isn't this implication of concord.
In this situation, the woman wouldn't have winked at Dan if he wasn't actually being somewhat charming, would she? I'm guessing he did not take the issue backwards. I say bravo.
In this situation, the woman wouldn't have winked at Dan if he wasn't actually being somewhat charming, would she? I'm guessing he did not take the issue backwards. I say bravo.
108
lol at 22, 30:
Science has already investigated your so-called "problem" of homosexual sex being non-reproductive - it's associated with increased fecundity in female relatives.
Way to reveal your lack of knowledge!
Science has already investigated your so-called "problem" of homosexual sex being non-reproductive - it's associated with increased fecundity in female relatives.
Way to reveal your lack of knowledge!
109
Kim @104
I do think they result in change. I've seen a number of people change mightily over time with an accumulation to exposure. As an example, I've a middleaged evangelical Christian friend in a different city than me, who I've watched morph over the last few years after steady exposure to views outside of her community. Sometimes it's a personal exposure just like Dan described. Sometimes it's me then following up discussing such an incident, in my style (which is fairly kind, though clearly differing from her views). Some people do want to think -- and if they are exposed to others outside of their own community, they do go back and ponder--because sme people do have the honesty to do some self reflection. If they never engage with anyone outside of their community, then it's harder to get there. This woman got Dan's book from me after the election, and is not ever going to vote for the likes of prop 8 again.
Though I know a lot of people who won't budge, I've also seen a lot of people do more than budge, but move way over the line.
You gotta try.
I do think they result in change. I've seen a number of people change mightily over time with an accumulation to exposure. As an example, I've a middleaged evangelical Christian friend in a different city than me, who I've watched morph over the last few years after steady exposure to views outside of her community. Sometimes it's a personal exposure just like Dan described. Sometimes it's me then following up discussing such an incident, in my style (which is fairly kind, though clearly differing from her views). Some people do want to think -- and if they are exposed to others outside of their own community, they do go back and ponder--because sme people do have the honesty to do some self reflection. If they never engage with anyone outside of their community, then it's harder to get there. This woman got Dan's book from me after the election, and is not ever going to vote for the likes of prop 8 again.
Though I know a lot of people who won't budge, I've also seen a lot of people do more than budge, but move way over the line.
You gotta try.
110
Alion @ 109
Thanks for the encouragement. I'm usually more upbeat. I have spent the last couple of days posting back and forth with two individuals who are against homosexual sexual behavior and against the idea of homosexuals being worthy of unions and families on Shhh.... Were Silencing the Christians. For the most part our exchanges were respectful, and they gave me much to ponder as they expressed their reasons why. I'm hoping that they also ponder what I said. You, are right. This is a slow journey, I gave a pastor friend a copy of Mitch Gold's book, Chrisis: 40 Stories Revealing the Personal, Social, and Religious Pain and Trauma of Growing Up Gay in America. We are going to meet again to discuss it.
I'll keep trying.
Best wishes,
k
Thanks for the encouragement. I'm usually more upbeat. I have spent the last couple of days posting back and forth with two individuals who are against homosexual sexual behavior and against the idea of homosexuals being worthy of unions and families on Shhh.... Were Silencing the Christians. For the most part our exchanges were respectful, and they gave me much to ponder as they expressed their reasons why. I'm hoping that they also ponder what I said. You, are right. This is a slow journey, I gave a pastor friend a copy of Mitch Gold's book, Chrisis: 40 Stories Revealing the Personal, Social, and Religious Pain and Trauma of Growing Up Gay in America. We are going to meet again to discuss it.
I'll keep trying.
Best wishes,
k
111
A similar situation happened to me once in a public library. The look on the bigot's faces when I politely confronted them, was priceless and their stammered apology was endearingly embarassed and quite likely, insincere.
112
This is why I love you Dan.
Yesterday, Today, and Forever.
If I wasn't so damn non confrontational I'd have done this a million times already. :)
Yesterday, Today, and Forever.
If I wasn't so damn non confrontational I'd have done this a million times already. :)
113
So this conversation -- the sort I have *never* heard while just casually sitting in a bar -- just happened to take place next to the country's foremost gay sex columnist.
I call bullshit.
I call bullshit.
115
@70
You clearly did not understand a word I said. All that I illuminated about the fact that deciding whether homosexuality is or is not an "innate genetic trait" is a pointless false dichotomy and a non-starter distraction from the real questions involved flew right over your head, didn't it? I can only assume it did since in response you simply restated your earlier, deeply discredited case.
And in answer to your "choice" non sequitur, may I point out that religion is also a lifestyle choice? One which is, notably, protected in our Constitution. And lest we forget, until you can give me a decent reason why polygamy is inherently wrong, drawing comparisons with it won't get you anywhere, either. As Lawrence v. Texas clearly showed us, the fact that something has been illegal in the past in the United States is simply not a guide as to whether or not it is immoral nor whether today's Americans want it to remain illegal.
You clearly did not understand a word I said. All that I illuminated about the fact that deciding whether homosexuality is or is not an "innate genetic trait" is a pointless false dichotomy and a non-starter distraction from the real questions involved flew right over your head, didn't it? I can only assume it did since in response you simply restated your earlier, deeply discredited case.
And in answer to your "choice" non sequitur, may I point out that religion is also a lifestyle choice? One which is, notably, protected in our Constitution. And lest we forget, until you can give me a decent reason why polygamy is inherently wrong, drawing comparisons with it won't get you anywhere, either. As Lawrence v. Texas clearly showed us, the fact that something has been illegal in the past in the United States is simply not a guide as to whether or not it is immoral nor whether today's Americans want it to remain illegal.
116
115
No one said polygamy was 'wrong'; only that it is a behavior choice regulated by law, not an inalienable civil right.
No one said polygamy was 'wrong'; only that it is a behavior choice regulated by law, not an inalienable civil right.
118
I'm Irish, Catholic and Gay, so I guess that makes me triple-cursed. Guess I'm doomed by all accounts.
120
@116
...as is religion (a behavioral choice, that is), which is generally cited as THE inalienable civil right. So what, exactly, is your point? Because mine is that the issue of whether or not something is a choice is a red herring when it comes to the issue of whether or not that thing is or should be a protected right.
That's a philosophical, question, however, and I'm content to leave the philosophy to other from here out. Now that you've stopped your gross misuse of the nickel's worth of scientific terminology you picked up from some talking point or another, my work here is done.
...as is religion (a behavioral choice, that is), which is generally cited as THE inalienable civil right. So what, exactly, is your point? Because mine is that the issue of whether or not something is a choice is a red herring when it comes to the issue of whether or not that thing is or should be a protected right.
That's a philosophical, question, however, and I'm content to leave the philosophy to other from here out. Now that you've stopped your gross misuse of the nickel's worth of scientific terminology you picked up from some talking point or another, my work here is done.
121
The mental picture I have in my head of Savage, winking and wearing a smile that warms the heart, it brings a smile to my face. I wonder what those ladies remember most?
122
Kim in Portland - I've read all your posts, both on this thread and the "Shhh.... We're Silencing the Christians," and I would like you to know, I'm grateful for intelligent, non-judgmental people, such as you. The world would do better, having more people like you. Thanks for being in "our" corner.
125
Well, you may not have won over those two gals, but you sure as heck gave that guy a great story to tell his friends.
128
@113: Yeah, what are the odds? Dan was in the most religious part of the country and people there were talking about homosexuality? Riiiiiight. When's the last time you heard a religious person in America make a peep on the subject of homosexuality? Or condemn gay people? For Dan's story to be true we would have to believe that religious people in America are obsessed with homosexuality. Man, what a liar. I call bullshit on you too, Dan!
129
Perfect, wonderful, eloquent, until the "fucking butt" comment. Totally unnecessary, dude. Very classless.
131
Dan, you rule! Have you ever heard the David Cross skit about people offering to pray for you? I believe his response was, "Hey, thanks, I guess I can do that many more drugs and fuck people and not feel sorry about it!"
Thanks for putting the ignorant assholes in their place.
Thanks for putting the ignorant assholes in their place.
132
@128 - When was the last time you were in the South? Religious types here talk about it all the time. They are obsessed with other people having sex, and what kind of sex they are having. But they won't educate their own kids about it, and they have soaring teen pregnancy rates as a result.
Between the Catholics and the Baptists in my neck of the woods, I don't know who is worse when it comes to that. I hear those conversations in coffee houses all the time, though. And in the grocery store. And when rude people insist on talking loudly on their cell phones in public places.
Between the Catholics and the Baptists in my neck of the woods, I don't know who is worse when it comes to that. I hear those conversations in coffee houses all the time, though. And in the grocery store. And when rude people insist on talking loudly on their cell phones in public places.
134
I’ve also got to throw props to Kim in Portland. I think the people on this board who encourage exchanging of ideas, gradual exposure, and patience are the ones who have “crossed the line” or seen others experience it. I grew up Lutheran, and my synod doesn’t really want to deal with politics one way or another… When there is any discussion of homosexuality, it was with a shrug, an “it’s morally wrong but so is what you’re doing… God forgave you, He forgives them, there’s not that big of a differences” and the subject was mostly closed. However, I still grew up conflicted about my own acceptance and perception of homosexuality. It wasn’t until I was able to engage, debate, and witness with not only gay individuals, but other Christians, that I finally, firmly, moved over the line into Gay Rights Supporter.
However, my support of the gay community has been waning lately…. Because of “faggots” like Dan Savage. I’ve been exiled from my college’s Spectrum group because I’m Christian, even though I was knocking down more doors than the majority of the self-proclaimed “fags” for A Fair Wisconsin. I’ve been called bigoted and stupid because of my religious faith by the so-called “open-minded” gay folks. I am punished by many for the sins of the few… and while many Slog posters may find this incredible, most Christians do not want gays to burn in the pits of hell.
But the more you push at them, the more you insult their religion and their way of life, the more you refuse to engage them with patience and understanding about their own issues (ever think that they’re just as confused about the flame war the Evangelical Right has started as you are?), the more you will prolong this war between Religion and The Gays. Both sides need to come to the table with understanding and patience. Sorry Dan, but you telling them you’d fuck ass for them was just as inappropriate as her telling you she’d pray for you.
yipper67@hotmail.com
More...
However, my support of the gay community has been waning lately…. Because of “faggots” like Dan Savage. I’ve been exiled from my college’s Spectrum group because I’m Christian, even though I was knocking down more doors than the majority of the self-proclaimed “fags” for A Fair Wisconsin. I’ve been called bigoted and stupid because of my religious faith by the so-called “open-minded” gay folks. I am punished by many for the sins of the few… and while many Slog posters may find this incredible, most Christians do not want gays to burn in the pits of hell.
But the more you push at them, the more you insult their religion and their way of life, the more you refuse to engage them with patience and understanding about their own issues (ever think that they’re just as confused about the flame war the Evangelical Right has started as you are?), the more you will prolong this war between Religion and The Gays. Both sides need to come to the table with understanding and patience. Sorry Dan, but you telling them you’d fuck ass for them was just as inappropriate as her telling you she’d pray for you.
yipper67@hotmail.com
135
Marty,
Alion, and BobbyP2001 were kind to encourage me yesterday. I hope that you don't loose hope. It is hard when our efforts are thrown back at us, and for me it hurts. Speaking up against oppression is always right. Love often means moving towards others, in the face of their rejection. Perhaps, the hurt of those in your Spectrum group is so large that they needed to vent it, those in pain do not always stop to consider their recipient's character when they choose to unleash. Maybe you provided a "safe" target, because they knew from working with you that you would not reject them. It is not fair, nor is it right, and I am very sorry. Being an adult survivor of child abuse (and a former DV counselor) you learn that it is very common for victims of hate to perpetuate the hate onto others.
I hope you keep trying.
Best wishes,
k
Alion, and BobbyP2001 were kind to encourage me yesterday. I hope that you don't loose hope. It is hard when our efforts are thrown back at us, and for me it hurts. Speaking up against oppression is always right. Love often means moving towards others, in the face of their rejection. Perhaps, the hurt of those in your Spectrum group is so large that they needed to vent it, those in pain do not always stop to consider their recipient's character when they choose to unleash. Maybe you provided a "safe" target, because they knew from working with you that you would not reject them. It is not fair, nor is it right, and I am very sorry. Being an adult survivor of child abuse (and a former DV counselor) you learn that it is very common for victims of hate to perpetuate the hate onto others.
I hope you keep trying.
Best wishes,
k
136
Hey all,
I hope you will read Marty's post @ 134, especially his final paragraph. Specifically the part about the confusion many semi-progressive Christians feel when faced with the loud (in my opinion bigoted) voices of the Evangelical Right. He makes some thoughtful points. He has given me much to ponder today.
Best wishes,
k
I hope you will read Marty's post @ 134, especially his final paragraph. Specifically the part about the confusion many semi-progressive Christians feel when faced with the loud (in my opinion bigoted) voices of the Evangelical Right. He makes some thoughtful points. He has given me much to ponder today.
Best wishes,
k
138
Thanks for the clarification, @133. I'm usually better at picking up sarcasm than that. Being on vacation is ruining my mind.
139
Formerly Kim and Thanks,
Thanks (ha) for the encouragement. A lot of what you said about being a safe target makes sense. And crazy as it may sound to other posters, I actually find my Christianity is a boon in times like this.... I was taught to face hate (hate from my Spectrum group, or the uber-Christian youth group I accidentally wandered into...) with love, to turn the other cheek, and to set an example with understanding and forgiveness. We're taught at church that the person we worship and try to aspire to be died a horrible death rejected by his peers, abandoned by his followers, and having to give comfort at the moment of death to someone else, all to save the very people who mocked, tortured, and sentenced him to Calvary.
I was taught we all have our crosses to bear... and perhaps my cross to bear is the pain and anguish felt by people rejected by those who claim to follow His teachings. They have a right to their anger. The Uber-Christians has taken the manner in which I worship him, and transformed it from a temple to a robber's den.
It's hard, sometimes, to be patient, and compassionate. It's sometimes impossible to demonstrate that the whole message of Christianity is "love thy neighbor."But I'll keep trying. And I'll hope, and yes Dan I'll pray, that someday, you can forgive me for the sins of my fellows.
Thanks (ha) for the encouragement. A lot of what you said about being a safe target makes sense. And crazy as it may sound to other posters, I actually find my Christianity is a boon in times like this.... I was taught to face hate (hate from my Spectrum group, or the uber-Christian youth group I accidentally wandered into...) with love, to turn the other cheek, and to set an example with understanding and forgiveness. We're taught at church that the person we worship and try to aspire to be died a horrible death rejected by his peers, abandoned by his followers, and having to give comfort at the moment of death to someone else, all to save the very people who mocked, tortured, and sentenced him to Calvary.
I was taught we all have our crosses to bear... and perhaps my cross to bear is the pain and anguish felt by people rejected by those who claim to follow His teachings. They have a right to their anger. The Uber-Christians has taken the manner in which I worship him, and transformed it from a temple to a robber's den.
It's hard, sometimes, to be patient, and compassionate. It's sometimes impossible to demonstrate that the whole message of Christianity is "love thy neighbor."But I'll keep trying. And I'll hope, and yes Dan I'll pray, that someday, you can forgive me for the sins of my fellows.
140
Hey Marty,
I am right there with you. I, too, hope my apologies and prayers for forgiveness will bear fruit, because by being a Christian I bear the shame of the Religious Right. And even if they don't I will continue to press on, because I can never apologize enough.
Hang in there.
I am right there with you. I, too, hope my apologies and prayers for forgiveness will bear fruit, because by being a Christian I bear the shame of the Religious Right. And even if they don't I will continue to press on, because I can never apologize enough.
Hang in there.
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