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News & ArtsThursday, February 12, 2009
Politics We Can Handle The Truth
Posted by Dan Savage on Thu, Feb 12, 2009 at 9:16 AM
A majority of the American people wanna get to the bottom of the Bush administration's errors, lies, and crimes. We should free to use "enhanced interrogation techniques" on anyone who argued that waterboarding, hypothermia, being forced to stand for days at a time, sleep deprivation, etc., wasn't torture.
1
Nurse that grudge, Dan.
Don't let go of that hate!
What is winning the election compared to the chance to root thru the muck for a little revenge?
Don't let go of that hate!
What is winning the election compared to the chance to root thru the muck for a little revenge?
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Of course, while doing so would be some mighty satisfying payback, it wouldn't actually help us get to the bottom of any actual crimes; since it's pretty well understood that torture victims will just make shit up to get the pain to stop, whether they're Afghan taxi drivers or American warmongers.
Ironic.
Ironic.
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Dan,
I agree with one. I don't think dwelling on the past administration's actions, legal or not will get us anywhere. Sounds like an ax you're grinding. Obama is right, let's move forward.
I agree with one. I don't think dwelling on the past administration's actions, legal or not will get us anywhere. Sounds like an ax you're grinding. Obama is right, let's move forward.
6
Dan,
I agree with one. I don't think dwelling on the past administration's actions, legal or not will get us anywhere. Sounds like an ax you're grinding. Obama is right, let's move forward.
I agree with one. I don't think dwelling on the past administration's actions, legal or not will get us anywhere. Sounds like an ax you're grinding. Obama is right, let's move forward.
8
Unfortunately, Obama is still holding on to extraordinary rendition:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/natio…
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con…
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/natio…
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con…
9
Hey Dan, how about giving us your take on Christopher's post and all the comments?
We can handle the truth.
We can handle the truth.
10
let's just drop the uphold the constitution crap and just pass the Nixon amendment that says if the president does it, it's legal.
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10
Lincoln pardoned all Confederate soldiers after a war that cost hundreds of thousands of lives.
He was magnaminous and wise and great beyond description.
Some un-named shitheads and their brainless fanboys nurse the liberal's wetdream of proscecuting a former President because they didn't like his policies.
They are clueless and annoying and utterly irrelevant.
10
Lincoln pardoned all Confederate soldiers after a war that cost hundreds of thousands of lives.
He was magnaminous and wise and great beyond description.
Some un-named shitheads and their brainless fanboys nurse the liberal's wetdream of proscecuting a former President because they didn't like his policies.
They are clueless and annoying and utterly irrelevant.
12
@5 - On one hand, we as a nation should move on. Definitely.
On the other hand, people need to be held to accounts. If we allow Bush and his cronies to get away with pissing all over our constitution and the Geneva convention, what's to stop future presidents from believing they are immune from the law?
The genius of our political system is that NO ONE IS ABOVE THE LAW. Politicians, police, teachers, citizens, military and, yes, the president. We are all subject to the same laws. So, no recourse? No accounting? That's bogus. This will pave the way for future injustices.
You may think this an extreme comparison (as do I, really) but what would have happened if all the Nazis had been given a free pass?
Okay, so that was extreme… But if someone has broken the law so blatantly, why should they not face the same judge and jury we all face?
On the other hand, people need to be held to accounts. If we allow Bush and his cronies to get away with pissing all over our constitution and the Geneva convention, what's to stop future presidents from believing they are immune from the law?
The genius of our political system is that NO ONE IS ABOVE THE LAW. Politicians, police, teachers, citizens, military and, yes, the president. We are all subject to the same laws. So, no recourse? No accounting? That's bogus. This will pave the way for future injustices.
You may think this an extreme comparison (as do I, really) but what would have happened if all the Nazis had been given a free pass?
Okay, so that was extreme… But if someone has broken the law so blatantly, why should they not face the same judge and jury we all face?
13
I'm torn on this issue. I mean, if they broke the law and ignored the constitution then they should probably be held accountable. But I'm so sick and tired of Bush and his whole criminal administration that I'm sort of looking forward. But forgetting about it doesn't seem like a decent option, does it?
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@11 This is different than the soldiers fighting for succession. Few are suggesting that we hold the guards at Guantanamo responsible for carrying out their orders; but rather the ones who made those illegal orders – Bush, Cheney, etc…
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Drag their asses to the Hague. They're war criminals! If other places are accountable for their war criminals why should we be any different, or are we above the law?
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The place for Bush and his ilk to be put on trial should be an international war crimes tribunal. The United States has to follow the rules it cannot make them.
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14
Lincoln was also generous with the leaders of the Confederacy and they were slaveholding traitors. As opposed to just guys you really don't like who were elected to keep the nation safe.
Lincoln was also generous with the leaders of the Confederacy and they were slaveholding traitors. As opposed to just guys you really don't like who were elected to keep the nation safe.
20
@18 No, I don’t like Bush. But there are a lot of people I don’t like and I don’t feel the need to see them punished for their crimes…
He broke laws. And not little 5-miles-over-the-speed-limit-laws, either. Seriously, read up on what this guy did in the last eight years, because in eight years you can forget stuff. He perverted the office of the presidency. I don’t care if Obama pardons him after, but he needs to stand trial. If The Hague wants to convene a tribunal also, well, the more the merrier…
He broke laws. And not little 5-miles-over-the-speed-limit-laws, either. Seriously, read up on what this guy did in the last eight years, because in eight years you can forget stuff. He perverted the office of the presidency. I don’t care if Obama pardons him after, but he needs to stand trial. If The Hague wants to convene a tribunal also, well, the more the merrier…
21
Allyn,
I read all your posts. Thanks. I still disagree. Let's compromise. I'm not necessarily for it but I would rather have Sen. Leahy's proposed "Truth & Reconciliation Commission" than trials for alleged "crimes & misdemeanors" of former administration officials. Never forget the precedent that trials would set. Pres. Obama would be subject as well. He's already retained rendition, one of the prior administration's hotly contested policies which some regard as criminal.
I read all your posts. Thanks. I still disagree. Let's compromise. I'm not necessarily for it but I would rather have Sen. Leahy's proposed "Truth & Reconciliation Commission" than trials for alleged "crimes & misdemeanors" of former administration officials. Never forget the precedent that trials would set. Pres. Obama would be subject as well. He's already retained rendition, one of the prior administration's hotly contested policies which some regard as criminal.
22
It's good to know that Republicans don't give a fuck about the rule of law or the Constitution. You guys seriously think you're doing yourselves any favors? Enjoy your 40 years in the wilderness.
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If Bush broke laws then your issue is with the Democratic Congress that had the responsibility to try him for it. Were they asleep the last two years?
More likely, even Barney Frank and Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid (granted, idiots all) know that NO LAWS WERE BROKEN.
Those calling for tribunal and the Hague etc etc are morons literally blinded by their hatred wandering outside reality muttering to themselves.
22
If Bush broke laws then your issue is with the Democratic Congress that had the responsibility to try him for it. Were they asleep the last two years?
More likely, even Barney Frank and Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid (granted, idiots all) know that NO LAWS WERE BROKEN.
Those calling for tribunal and the Hague etc etc are morons literally blinded by their hatred wandering outside reality muttering to themselves.
25
Lark,
I’m nowhere near pronouncing Obama “St”…. Does it not make you sick to think of how the presidency has been tarnished (and not just by Bush. I’m thinking of Clinton, Nixon, among others…) Obama should be held accountable as well. Anyone who enters public service is accountable to the citizens.
I’m nowhere near pronouncing Obama “St”…. Does it not make you sick to think of how the presidency has been tarnished (and not just by Bush. I’m thinking of Clinton, Nixon, among others…) Obama should be held accountable as well. Anyone who enters public service is accountable to the citizens.
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@23 – um, check the definition of literally one more time… I think you meant figuratively...
I think those who mention The Hague are referring to the crimes against humanity that is torture (oh, sorry, “enhanced interrogation techniques”). And also, perhaps, one country unprovoked, invading another independent nation that made no advances against the first. Or, maybe, allowing the employees of a private company to murder and rape another country’s citizens without having to stand trial. Or, you know, something like that...
I think those who mention The Hague are referring to the crimes against humanity that is torture (oh, sorry, “enhanced interrogation techniques”). And also, perhaps, one country unprovoked, invading another independent nation that made no advances against the first. Or, maybe, allowing the employees of a private company to murder and rape another country’s citizens without having to stand trial. Or, you know, something like that...
27
Bagram is the new Guantanamo. So much for Obama's commitment to the rule of law.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnew…
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnew…
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Allyn,
I don't think it makes me sick. I guess I'm just thick skinned. Two presidents have been impeached and one resigned. We have a separation of powers (checks and balances) thanks to Montesquieu. Presidents are held "accountable". Citizens hold them accountable through Congress and the judiciary. It isn't perfect but it works.
I don't think it makes me sick. I guess I'm just thick skinned. Two presidents have been impeached and one resigned. We have a separation of powers (checks and balances) thanks to Montesquieu. Presidents are held "accountable". Citizens hold them accountable through Congress and the judiciary. It isn't perfect but it works.
29
You are absolutely correct, Dan. If we let this go in the name of "moving forward" it will be worse next time. Will we want to confront something worse? One lesson we should take from the Republican/Bush fiasco that ignoring problems will only make bigger problems.
30
This is beyond insane.
The Bush Administration has committed multiple felonies. The wiretapping charges alone are felonies, not to mention the clear, additional violations of international laws and treaties in regards to torture.
Those of you arguing against holding people accountable for their crimes are in favor of a two-tiered justice system: Getting off scot-free for the wealthy and powerful, while draconian punishments are meted out to everyday Americans for even the most mundane violations of the law (ex. marijuana possession).
There are words for what you’re advocating in saying that our rulers are essentially above the law: Aristocratic oligarchy—and that’s the antithesis of what our legal system and our nation hypocritically claim to stand for. It’s totally despicable.
Not prosecuting these criminals is like an engraved invitation for the next generation of depraved psychopaths to act a thousand times worse should they assume power.
The Bush Administration has committed multiple felonies. The wiretapping charges alone are felonies, not to mention the clear, additional violations of international laws and treaties in regards to torture.
Those of you arguing against holding people accountable for their crimes are in favor of a two-tiered justice system: Getting off scot-free for the wealthy and powerful, while draconian punishments are meted out to everyday Americans for even the most mundane violations of the law (ex. marijuana possession).
There are words for what you’re advocating in saying that our rulers are essentially above the law: Aristocratic oligarchy—and that’s the antithesis of what our legal system and our nation hypocritically claim to stand for. It’s totally despicable.
Not prosecuting these criminals is like an engraved invitation for the next generation of depraved psychopaths to act a thousand times worse should they assume power.
33
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stop ... stop ...
I'm LITERALLY bawling my eyes out with grief over the cruelty and wickedness of this depraved nation
sob
sob
sniff
stop ... stop ...
I'm LITERALLY bawling my eyes out with grief over the cruelty and wickedness of this depraved nation
sob
sob
sniff
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