Saturday, February 7, 2009
Chow Foie Gras Protest at Lark
Posted by Bethany Jean Clement on Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 2:16 PM
The Northwest Animal Rights Network held a protest against foie gras outside Capitol Hill restaurant Lark last night from 7 to 8 p.m. About a dozen people were lined up on the sidewalk facing Lark's large windows, chanting slogans about death. One protester wore a goose (or duck?) costume. Patrons inside ignored the hubbub, while the host stood looking grim with arms folded.
NARN intends to protest at Lark "EVERY FRIDAY 7-8PM UNTIL THEY REMOVE FOIE GRAS FROM THE MENU." Lark chef/owner John Sundstrom has not yet returned a call for comment.
UPDATE: Sundstrom's reponse now posted.
Last weekend PBS aired Rick Steves's show on the Dordogne region of France, in which he visits a goose farm in the unbelievably beautiful countryside and watches geese being force-fed. The process is shown, briefly: The farmer grabbing a goose, sticking a long tube down its gullet, holding it for a moment, then removing the tube. The goose then just waddled away. It did not appear at all traumatic and was not particularly troubling to watch—if you've spent any time on a farm or ranch, you've seen "worse" (e.g., butchering, branding, castrating). Video of the segment doesn't seem to be available on the internet, but here's a piece Steves wrote about the experience.
Denis rhythmically grabs a goose by the neck, pulls him under his leg and stretches him up, slides the tube down to the belly, and fills it with corn. He pulls the trigger to squirt the corn, slowly slides the tube up the neck and out, holds the beak shut for a few seconds, lets that goose go, and grabs the next....Nathalie meets tourists — mostly French families — who show up each evening at 6:00 to see how their beloved foie gras is made. The groups stroll the idyllic farm as Nathalie explains how they raise a thousand geese a year. She stresses the key to top-quality foie gras is happy geese raised on quality food in an unstressed environment. They need quality corn and the same feeder.
I join the group as scatter seed for the baby geese. We stroll into the grassy back lot where the older geese run free. Backlit by the low early-evening sun, they glow in rich colors....
Nathalie, like other French enthusiasts of la gavage, says that while their animals are calm, in no pain, and are designed to take in food this manner, American farm animals are typically kept in little boxes and fed chemicals and hormones to get fat. Most battery chickens in the US live less than two months and are plumped with hormones. Her geese are free range and live six months.
Dordogne geese live lives at least as comfy as other farm animals (that people so upset with the foie gras process have no problem eating) and are slaughtered as humanely as any non-human can expect in this food-chain existence.
On the program, Steves proceeds from the goose farm to a restaurant with a patio on the world's most picturesque river, where he eats three kinds of foie gras and looks damn happy about it.
Groups like NARN should focus on larger issues—the practices and environmental impact of giant agricultural corporations like Tyson and Hormel, for instance. Other animals are suffering; geese raised for foie gras, humanely treated, are not.
Photo from www.ricksteves.com.
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3
I totally agree. It's the forest/tree/vision problem, except in duck form.
I personally prefer to consume meat from animals that are humanely raised on appropriate foods (e.g. cattle need grass, not corn) and humanely slaughtered whenever possible. It's not just a difference in terms of the animal's life, but also in the taste (and healthfulness) of the food. I was sold on this concept when I started trying pastured beef on sale at farmer's markets and milk from pastured cows. You can't go back once you taste the good stuff.
I personally prefer to consume meat from animals that are humanely raised on appropriate foods (e.g. cattle need grass, not corn) and humanely slaughtered whenever possible. It's not just a difference in terms of the animal's life, but also in the taste (and healthfulness) of the food. I was sold on this concept when I started trying pastured beef on sale at farmer's markets and milk from pastured cows. You can't go back once you taste the good stuff.
4
If feeding an animal in a way that makes them sick is so deplorable then beef should be the target. So why not protest at Dicks instead. Foie gras preparation definitely makes geese ill towards the end of their lives. I suppose their experience would be something like that of the guy in Super Size Me, since they are suffering from the same disorder: fatty liver. Still it seems like in the scheme of things a week or so of a goose forced to feel like your average american fast food eater doesn't seem like such an affront to interspecies justice.
5
I was born in the Dordogne--in the village of Domme, no less--and I've been back to the foie gras capitol several times since. I'll tell you this: When the geese see that farmer step out with the feeder in his hand, it's a damn mob scene. They can't wait to be force fed. They live in pastoral fields, they are fed well, and they are killed mercifully. As Bethany said, these protester asswipes should focus on the real problems of cruelty in most American poultry, pig and cow farms.
7
So there are no foie gras farms that don't treat their ducks humanely? Are you kidding?
Nevertheless, if any of those protesters eat meat, and especially if they ever eat meat that's not free range and organic, they really need to shut up.
Nevertheless, if any of those protesters eat meat, and especially if they ever eat meat that's not free range and organic, they really need to shut up.
8
(ahem)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiZmZvHoX…
I guess Rick Steves didn't include this farm in his show.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiZmZvHoX…
I guess Rick Steves didn't include this farm in his show.
10
I'm vegan so I don't support any kind of animal consumption, but picking on a tiny, locally owned restaurant seems like a complete waste of time. and bitchy.
11
I suppose the farm featured in this video is a complete anomaly, because Dominic says that foie gras geese are all so happy and carefree...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IWN8UGDy…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IWN8UGDy…
14
Bethany, you are so right on this issue. These animal right freaks need to get a grip. Foie gras is a humanely raised animal product, and if you don't believe me, just watch this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ozws-u4x…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ozws-u4x…
15
Dominic, is this the foie gras farm you visited?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32815SIgq…
It looks beautiful and amazing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32815SIgq…
It looks beautiful and amazing.
16
So, can you clarify what side of the fence you are on?
looking grim
just waddled away
pulls the trigger to squirt the corn
happy geese
they glow in rich colors
calm, in no pain, and are designed to take in food this manner
people so upset with the foie gras process
eats three kinds of foie gras
Other animals are suffering; geese raised for foie gras, humanely treated, are not
looking grim
just waddled away
pulls the trigger to squirt the corn
happy geese
they glow in rich colors
calm, in no pain, and are designed to take in food this manner
people so upset with the foie gras process
eats three kinds of foie gras
Other animals are suffering; geese raised for foie gras, humanely treated, are not
17
Just look at the geese come running! It's a regular mob scene.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FX9UF5i2…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FX9UF5i2…
18
Ducks an geese are amazing animals who fly, walk, and swim, making humans look tremendously inadequate. The thrive in a wide variety of climates. If you eat them, after seeing them migrate in formation, you are a heartless piece of crap. If you support their torture after seeing some propaganda, you are an evil stupid piece of crap.
20
I do think it's a bit dishonest to form your opinion on foie gras in general based on the fact that some farms exist where its humanely produce. Obviously, that's not going to be the case everywhere, and there are certainly plenty of farms where practices are inhumane... It'd be sort of like saying that because there are organic farms where cows are treated well and humanely slaughtered, that there's no argument against eating any beef at all.
Foie gras is not an issue I get all that worked up about, on one side or the other, but you have to recognize that the people protesting it have a point. Not sure protesting a restaurant is the best way to create change on the issue, but that's another story.
Foie gras is not an issue I get all that worked up about, on one side or the other, but you have to recognize that the people protesting it have a point. Not sure protesting a restaurant is the best way to create change on the issue, but that's another story.
21
Bethany, why did you try to contact the chef from Lark for a comment and no one from NARN? Is it because you aren't interested in anything NARN has to say? If you were at the protest, you could've easily have spoken to them.
Nice biased reporting, but we know, the The Stranger doesn't really do "reporting" really, just opinions.
Nice biased reporting, but we know, the The Stranger doesn't really do "reporting" really, just opinions.
22
Better treatment than the turkeys got in that Sarah Palin interview:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-kjM1asH…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-kjM1asH…
23
This foie gras farm looks great - I'm going to vacation there this summer!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yytFTbqLw…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yytFTbqLw…
24
I'm glad I read @10 before I read @18, so I can remember that only *some* vegans are pretentious and sanctimonious twats.
25
Bethany, If you were force fed until you grow to ten times your normal size, perhaps you would consider this treatment inhumane.
Your argument, that animal rights activists are focusing on the wrong sorts of abuses, that there should be a greater emphasis on the environmental impact of Tyson and Hormel, proves that you just don't understand the aims of the animal rights movement. The environmental impact of these companies is a completely viable issue, but a completely separate issue from animal rights abuses. In the event that you might have missed it.. NARN is an acronym for Northwest Animal Rights Network, and being as such, I would imagine that NARN would concern itself with animal rights issues, not environmental issues.
So this leads me to a bit of confusion as to the purpose of your post in the first place...
It would seem to me that you just are a bit pissed of at animal rights activists and wanted to bitch about them...did they somehow make your dinner at the Lark unpleasant? Was it as unpleasant as being force fed till you are 10 times your intended size?
You have dismissed what is widely recognized as brutal treatment on the merits of the practices on one farm in a Rick Steves episode (did you bother to ask the restaurant if their Foie Gras comes from this, or a similiar farm, or could it have been sourced from one of the many factory foie gras farms?).
Bethany, all ducks raised for Foie Gras are treated inhumanely, regardless which farm they are raised on. Force feeding any animal is inhumane, regardless how good you might think it tastes. The Rick Steves piece you so enthusiastically site is the exception to the rule in regard to the treatment of the geese, and any journalist worth her salt would have provided a more accurate, less one-sided defence of her position.
More...
Your argument, that animal rights activists are focusing on the wrong sorts of abuses, that there should be a greater emphasis on the environmental impact of Tyson and Hormel, proves that you just don't understand the aims of the animal rights movement. The environmental impact of these companies is a completely viable issue, but a completely separate issue from animal rights abuses. In the event that you might have missed it.. NARN is an acronym for Northwest Animal Rights Network, and being as such, I would imagine that NARN would concern itself with animal rights issues, not environmental issues.
So this leads me to a bit of confusion as to the purpose of your post in the first place...
It would seem to me that you just are a bit pissed of at animal rights activists and wanted to bitch about them...did they somehow make your dinner at the Lark unpleasant? Was it as unpleasant as being force fed till you are 10 times your intended size?
You have dismissed what is widely recognized as brutal treatment on the merits of the practices on one farm in a Rick Steves episode (did you bother to ask the restaurant if their Foie Gras comes from this, or a similiar farm, or could it have been sourced from one of the many factory foie gras farms?).
Bethany, all ducks raised for Foie Gras are treated inhumanely, regardless which farm they are raised on. Force feeding any animal is inhumane, regardless how good you might think it tastes. The Rick Steves piece you so enthusiastically site is the exception to the rule in regard to the treatment of the geese, and any journalist worth her salt would have provided a more accurate, less one-sided defence of her position.
29
The problem is, Bethany, most geese raised for foie gras are *not* humanely treated. That's the issue, see? Citing an example from a Rick Steves program as proof that foie gras is humanely produced, and not bothering to find out why NARN is protesting at Lark or what their anti-foie gras demos are all about, is just lazy and dishonest "journalism".
You also make the assumption that the anti-foie gras protesters are eating all kinds of other "comfy farm animals". Did you ask them? Did you talk with anyone from NARN? From your post, it's pretty obvious that you didn't, or if you did, for some reason you're withholding that information.
If you just wanted to bitch about the protesters, well, I guess you accomplished that. But you look a bit of a fool in doing so.
Other animals are suffering; geese raised for foie gras, humanely treated, are not.
The problem is, Bethany, most geese raised for foie gras are *not* humanely treated. That's the issue, see? Citing an example from a Rick Steves program as proof that foie gras is humanely produced, and not bothering to find out why NARN is protesting at Lark or what their anti-foie gras demos are all about, is just lazy and dishonest "journalism".
You also make the assumption that the anti-foie gras protesters are eating all kinds of other "comfy farm animals". Did you ask them? Did you talk with anyone from NARN? From your post, it's pretty obvious that you didn't, or if you did, for some reason you're withholding that information.
If you just wanted to bitch about the protesters, well, I guess you accomplished that. But you look a bit of a fool in doing so.
30
Bethany,
If you want Foie Gras, go to Green Lake and find a Goose. Show it your harmless tube and just wait for it to come running. Then stuff the tube down its throat and let the Corn flow.
Just make sure there are no cops around because that would make you a criminal. You're right, it makes way more sense to detach yourself completely and just let someone else do it.
If you want Foie Gras, go to Green Lake and find a Goose. Show it your harmless tube and just wait for it to come running. Then stuff the tube down its throat and let the Corn flow.
Just make sure there are no cops around because that would make you a criminal. You're right, it makes way more sense to detach yourself completely and just let someone else do it.
31
Have any of these animal rights folks ever eaten foie gras? Try some, then get back to me. Pure heaven.
"Ducks an geese are amazing animals who fly, walk, and swim, making humans look tremendously inadequate. "
Speak for your own inadequacies. THanks.
Seriously, you people are FUCKING nazis. Don't tell me what I can and cannot eat. You are worse than Jerry Falwell's followers...why? Cuz you live near me.
Seriously touch my foie gras and I'll run one of you vegan fuckers over with my Subaru. The one with the Obama sticker.
"Ducks an geese are amazing animals who fly, walk, and swim, making humans look tremendously inadequate. "
Speak for your own inadequacies. THanks.
Seriously, you people are FUCKING nazis. Don't tell me what I can and cannot eat. You are worse than Jerry Falwell's followers...why? Cuz you live near me.
Seriously touch my foie gras and I'll run one of you vegan fuckers over with my Subaru. The one with the Obama sticker.
32
And to the owners of Lark. Without these fuckers ruining people's right to enjoy a meal in peace and quiet, I would have never known you served foie gras. i'll be there tonight. Get a bottle of Chateau Neuf de Papes ready, one in one of those heavy f*cking bottles so I can throw it at these assholes outside your business.
34
Ballard Man: Animals Rights people don't partake in foie gras you idiot. It's not about taste, though if you like eating diseased fatty liver, I'm not sure I'd trust your taste in food.
And...crying Nazi is an automatic FAIL on your part for internet spewing.
Next.
And...crying Nazi is an automatic FAIL on your part for internet spewing.
Next.
35
@ 10: The fact that Larks says that they are ethical, humane, organic and sustainable is the reason NARN is "picking" on them. They are deceiving their customers into thinking that a process that inherently uses cruelty to justify the endproduct is somehow ethical and humane. While Lark's use of organic local produce is commendable, foie gras is not local, nor is it organic, sustainable, humane or ethical.
36
I'll hold Ballard Girl down if someone wants to shove a pipe down his throat and stuff some corn into his gullet.
38
I am so tired of people always complaining that animal rights people should go protest KFC/Dicks/Hormel/anyone except who they are protesting at the moment. Lemme tell you, every time I've been protesting Dicks, people yell at me to protest KFC or McDonald's or anyone else. Then when I'm over in front of KFC, people yell "why don't you protest the war", "get a life", "why don't you do something about puppy mills?" "why don't you bla, bla, bla". Here is the thing people - why don't you put up or shut up? Get your ass off the couch and go fight for something you believe in instead of criticizing other people for speaking their minds.
So if a business is small they should get a pass on doing unethical things? I suppose you folks would defend fur ranchers too? After all, they are just trying to feed their families by electrocuting small animals.
So if a business is small they should get a pass on doing unethical things? I suppose you folks would defend fur ranchers too? After all, they are just trying to feed their families by electrocuting small animals.
39
Ballard Man: wow, what a man you must feel like. You must feel inadequate about your manhood. Seriously, you get laid with that attitude?
I wouldn't recommend even touching those folks. There is a lawyer in their mix to make sure no-one gets away with anything against them. They have a right to be where they are and do what they do. And you have a right to be a complete asshole, which you are certainly showing in full glory. But don't even try to harm them.
I wouldn't recommend even touching those folks. There is a lawyer in their mix to make sure no-one gets away with anything against them. They have a right to be where they are and do what they do. And you have a right to be a complete asshole, which you are certainly showing in full glory. But don't even try to harm them.
40
Too bad Guantanamo is closing. Now that there's nothing of importance to protest, we get stuck with self-righteous twats like NARN.
Seriously, GTFO of my city.
Seriously, GTFO of my city.
41
i bet if a tiny local restaurant discriminated against gays the stranger would see things differently
42
Humane myth. An idea being propagated by the animal-using industry and some animal protection organizations that it is possible to use and kill animals in a manner that can be fairly described as respectful or compassionate or humane.
http://www.humanemyth.org/index.htm
http://www.humanemyth.org/index.htm
43
I think it's just awesome that NARN targets Lark when QFC sells the stuff right down the street. It's obviously good publicity for Lark, or else they probably would have worked out the differences. I actually saw the protest while driving down 12th and thought "Interesting - what's that all about. Oh hmm - Lark. When was the last time I was there. Note to self - gotta go soon. Maybe try me some of that Faux Graw..."
But hey - these NARN people obviously don't have lives, so it's giving them an outlet for their friday night. I say have fun you wacky Animal-rights people - I mean, what's better than disrupting a few diners and having to stand out in the bitter cold? (Oh - wait, I know - how about filling Lark entirely with NARN people and then NOT ORDERING the 'gras' and maybe leaving literature on the table as you go? Ooooh burn!!)
But hey - these NARN people obviously don't have lives, so it's giving them an outlet for their friday night. I say have fun you wacky Animal-rights people - I mean, what's better than disrupting a few diners and having to stand out in the bitter cold? (Oh - wait, I know - how about filling Lark entirely with NARN people and then NOT ORDERING the 'gras' and maybe leaving literature on the table as you go? Ooooh burn!!)
44
The production of foie gras has been banned in more than a dozen other countries and as of 2012, both the production and sale of foie gras will be illegal in the state of California. Other states are on their way to adopting similar legislation. Why? Because when geese are force fed up to 7 pounds of food every day for 3 weeks until their livers swell up up to ten times their normal size and they're so fat they can barely move, it is considered ANIMAL CRUELTY. Supersize Me? Eh...it's more like eating 16 pounds of spaghetti a day. Sick.
Sure, there are a million things to protest but foie gras is relatively new to the US and since there is no "humane" way to produce it, I want a foie gras free Seattle. Other protests have been successful in getting restaurants to remove it from their menu, including most recently, The Chop House chain in Michigan. Lark touts itself for being "organic" and "sustainable." Is foie gras organic? I don't think so! Is foie gras sustainable? I don't think so! Therefore, I protest. It's one less hour a week I get to waste on the internet.
Sure, there are a million things to protest but foie gras is relatively new to the US and since there is no "humane" way to produce it, I want a foie gras free Seattle. Other protests have been successful in getting restaurants to remove it from their menu, including most recently, The Chop House chain in Michigan. Lark touts itself for being "organic" and "sustainable." Is foie gras organic? I don't think so! Is foie gras sustainable? I don't think so! Therefore, I protest. It's one less hour a week I get to waste on the internet.
45
Ah, the pastoral, stress-free life of geese on a foie gras farm. How charming!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cIA7seht…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cIA7seht…
46
I don't particularly like fois gras, but I almost want to go out and buy some on general principles.
Perhaps I'll have some veal instead....
Perhaps I'll have some veal instead....
48
I actually think Bethany sincerely believes that geese raised for foie gras are treated humanely, just like a lot of Limbaugh/O'Reilly fans sincerely believe that "enhanced interrogation techniques" do not constitute torture. She believes--they believe--because they want to believe.
It's been said that humans are not so much rational animals as rationalizing animals, and boy, animal welfare/rights is just one of those hot-button issues where you see that truth.
Nicholas Kristof from The New York Times is the consummate open-minded individual, and yet even he has a hard time dealing with this issue. From his column A Farm Boy Reflects:
And yet:
Although he goes on: But I draw the line at animals being raised in cruel conditions.
At least Kristof didn't make such a sad attempt to selectively find evidence that rationalizes his choices.
More...
It's been said that humans are not so much rational animals as rationalizing animals, and boy, animal welfare/rights is just one of those hot-button issues where you see that truth.
Nicholas Kristof from The New York Times is the consummate open-minded individual, and yet even he has a hard time dealing with this issue. From his column A Farm Boy Reflects:
Once a month or so, we would slaughter the geese.....
The 150 geese knew that something dreadful was happening and would cower in a far corner of the barn, and run away in terror as I approached. Then I would grab one and carry it away as it screeched and struggled in my arms.
Very often, one goose would bravely step away from the panicked flock and walk tremulously toward me. It would be the mate of the one I had caught, male or female, and it would step right up to me, protesting pitifully. It would be frightened out of its wits, but still determined to stand with and comfort its lover.
We eventually grew so impressed with our geese — they had virtually become family friends — that we gave the remaining ones to a local park.
And yet:
So, yes, I eat meat (even, hesitantly, goose).
Although he goes on: But I draw the line at animals being raised in cruel conditions.
At least Kristof didn't make such a sad attempt to selectively find evidence that rationalizes his choices.
49
Nope, nothing wrong with foie gras production, especially because Dominic says there isn't!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19S6V_giR…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19S6V_giR…
50
Considering how much shit the geese leave around the UW fountain every year I am all for rounding them up and feeding them to the poor. The ducks on the other hand are so cute, I like to feed them (they like Corn Flakes).
51
I vote for goose freedom ... and I love my steak, lean, home grown and RARE.
Or, most often, on sale at QFC.
I grew up on a small farm and the geese were the hit of the place. We had about a dozen in a field with a little pond.
Ganders are terrifying when you are a small child. Goslings are adorable. Roasted, at holidays, sublime food.
Or, most often, on sale at QFC.
I grew up on a small farm and the geese were the hit of the place. We had about a dozen in a field with a little pond.
Ganders are terrifying when you are a small child. Goslings are adorable. Roasted, at holidays, sublime food.
52
Have you ever noticed that animal rights protestors are almost always white, middle class and college educated? Too much free time on their hands.
53
#46, that is a bit like saying "well, I like gays, but maybe I'll go beat up a couple of homos just 'cause I don't like Dan Savage". Real mature.
54
to all the people posting the youtube videos:
If you are have been around the farm these videos will elicit a shrug. Compare them to a pig being slaughtered, for example (not even on an industrial farm):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Pe6xND0H…
The point is foie gras is no more wrong than any meat (which you probably think is all wrong but still- why go after this tiny niche product?)
If you are have been around the farm these videos will elicit a shrug. Compare them to a pig being slaughtered, for example (not even on an industrial farm):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Pe6xND0H…
The point is foie gras is no more wrong than any meat (which you probably think is all wrong but still- why go after this tiny niche product?)
55
I should just add to my comment @48 that I don't mean to equate slaughtering geese with raising geese for foie gras and then slaughtering them.
Oh, and for the record...
Big Sven @24: I'm glad I read @10 before I read @18, so I can remember that only *some* vegans are pretentious and sanctimonious twats.
joykiller @40: Too bad Guantanamo is closing. Now that there's nothing of importance to protest, we get stuck with self-righteous twats like NARN.
twat (from Wikipedia):
Big Sven and joykiller, you're real big boys, aren't you? Please tell me you don't have children of your own you have to be role models for.
Oh, and for the record...
Big Sven @24: I'm glad I read @10 before I read @18, so I can remember that only *some* vegans are pretentious and sanctimonious twats.
joykiller @40: Too bad Guantanamo is closing. Now that there's nothing of importance to protest, we get stuck with self-righteous twats like NARN.
twat (from Wikipedia):
The word twat has various functions, its primary meaning being a vulgar synonym for the human vulva, vagina, or clitoris.[1] It is also widely used as a derogatory epithet, especially in British English. The word is usually considered vulgar in all contexts.
Big Sven and joykiller, you're real big boys, aren't you? Please tell me you don't have children of your own you have to be role models for.
56
oh man - all this talk about dead animals has me drooling! You know what I like to eat? Puppy feet. Yeah, those are delicious, especially when they are from a nice domesticated dog. My favorite thing to do is drive around town and take dogs out of someone's yard, then slaughter them at home. So tender! But hey - at least I have the balls to kill it myself unlike you pansies paying someone else to butcher your chickens and pigs. Kitten eyeballs are pretty tasty too. Pop them out while they are still alive. It doesn't hurt them.
59
Meat is tasty. And for God's sake, animals don't have equivalent human rights. Even right wing nutcases will tell you so. Their bible says they're here to serve (and be eaten. Yum.)
If we didn't need animal proteins from outside sources, we'd be able to produce our own.
If we didn't need animal proteins from outside sources, we'd be able to produce our own.
60
Bethany, I'd like to protest your protestation of the protest at lark. Too bored to find a worthy subject?
61
@MeatTroll: That's why they call them "animal rights", not "human rights".
We don't need animal protein. I'm sorry.
And the Bible isn't real either. Sorry again.
We don't need animal protein. I'm sorry.
And the Bible isn't real either. Sorry again.
62
I lost a lot of respect for NARN when I read a post on a blog by one of their leaders. This man actually compared the suffering of chickens to the suffering of prisoners in nazi death camps. To me it seemed a huge insult to the human beings who died in those camps. With that sort of twisted thinking that little grouplet will get nowhere.
63
@61
Where are you going to get that protein, then? Your multivitamin? Good luck with that. I'll have a burge and sing at your funeral.
Where are you going to get that protein, then? Your multivitamin? Good luck with that. I'll have a burge and sing at your funeral.
65
Can someone explain to me how foie gras is any worse than eating a battery chicken? Or worse, a turkey? The ones that can't stand up because they're modified to have an enormous breast? Because I don't get the difference.
66
@64
At 43, I'm probably 20 pounds under the recommended weight for my age and size and WAY under the recommended body fat index. So yeah, I'll stick to my meat habit. 'Cause it's TASTY.
Mmmmm.......bacon....
At 43, I'm probably 20 pounds under the recommended weight for my age and size and WAY under the recommended body fat index. So yeah, I'll stick to my meat habit. 'Cause it's TASTY.
Mmmmm.......bacon....
67
One cocaine and champagne spangled night in Las Vegas -- sometime around 1994 I think -- I dined on seared foie gras with a dark wine and berry reduction. The succulence was astounding, the champagne a perfectly dry vintage Veuve Cliquot. Later, I enjoyed the depraved charms of a handsome prostitute until a desert sunrise streaked the Nevada sky.
68
You know, every time these cracks pots get some press it only moves people towards the right wing. You a**holes feed them with this stupidity, you embarrass those on the left who try to live in moderation but respect people's right to choose and live free lives.
And btw, since this blog is filled with false analogies: I believe in a womans' right to a late term abortion and the right to eat fois gras. But how can you be against fois gras and pro-late term abortion? I can guarantee these a**holes think like this.
Seriously, these people are f*cking demented. Look out next week when I drop my Chateau Neuf des Papes on your heads.
And btw, since this blog is filled with false analogies: I believe in a womans' right to a late term abortion and the right to eat fois gras. But how can you be against fois gras and pro-late term abortion? I can guarantee these a**holes think like this.
Seriously, these people are f*cking demented. Look out next week when I drop my Chateau Neuf des Papes on your heads.
69
Foie gras from inhumanely treated ducks DOES NOT TASTE GOOD. If the geese get upset and stressed out, there livers taste foul.
Every farmer knows that. Bad tasting food doesn't sell. so it is in the farmers economic interest to treat the geese in a manner that doesn't stress them.
Protesters are a great advertisement for Lark. I went straight to Google to find out how to get there.
Every farmer knows that. Bad tasting food doesn't sell. so it is in the farmers economic interest to treat the geese in a manner that doesn't stress them.
Protesters are a great advertisement for Lark. I went straight to Google to find out how to get there.
70
hey wench, foie gras isn't worse than battery hens, no one said it was. NARN isn't saying it is, they are just asking a restaurant that claims to care about where it's food comes from to take this one little bitty item off of their menu.
You want to start a campaign against battery hens? NARN will support you. I say go for it!
You want to start a campaign against battery hens? NARN will support you. I say go for it!
71
homegirl do you support my right to torture dogs? In the same of consistency, you should. You know - cause I torture them in moderation and all....
72
"this one little bitty item off of their menu."
Where do you live? Let me come over to your house and see how you live and then make up a list of things I want you to stop doing and eating. Come on, man up, name and address, I'll be over with a notebook in an hour to violate your privacy.
Where do you live? Let me come over to your house and see how you live and then make up a list of things I want you to stop doing and eating. Come on, man up, name and address, I'll be over with a notebook in an hour to violate your privacy.
73
"homegirl do you support my right to torture dogs?"
I don't think its torture, so how can I answer your loaded question?
FYI, I've eaten dog in Korea and China.
Too gamey.
I had mink whale meat in Shibuya, Tokyo.
Too greasy.
And I've fois gras at Lark. Yummy.
I don't think its torture, so how can I answer your loaded question?
FYI, I've eaten dog in Korea and China.
Too gamey.
I had mink whale meat in Shibuya, Tokyo.
Too greasy.
And I've fois gras at Lark. Yummy.
74
"selfish people suck "
Well, we're a hell of lot more fun to be around than the anal retentive, do-it-my-way, we're morally superior crowd of left wing and right wing a**holes all over the US who always want to tell you how to live. You guys are no different than the rightwing nuts telling us how to live our lives.
Well, we're a hell of lot more fun to be around than the anal retentive, do-it-my-way, we're morally superior crowd of left wing and right wing a**holes all over the US who always want to tell you how to live. You guys are no different than the rightwing nuts telling us how to live our lives.
75
and by the way, I lived in France for many years, love the people, speak the language and 99% of them think you're f*cking nuts too.
76
Aside from the anti-vegan crowd with chips on shoulders, there are some good questions here regarding journalistic standards. How many comments do there need to be before Bethany feels obligated to weigh in?
78
"with chips on shoulders"
Sorry, we're not the ones telling you how to live. If you want to be a vegan, be my guest. I want to eat fois gras? Suddenly you want to invade my privacy.
None of you wackjobs has answered my question: how can you protest fois gras but not late term abortions?
I support the right to enjoy both.
Sorry, we're not the ones telling you how to live. If you want to be a vegan, be my guest. I want to eat fois gras? Suddenly you want to invade my privacy.
None of you wackjobs has answered my question: how can you protest fois gras but not late term abortions?
I support the right to enjoy both.
79
I agree that there are more pressing animal rights issues, but trusting that one video is representative of all or even most foie gras farms is pretty lame.
And "humanely raised meat" is a total fucking sham.
And "humanely raised meat" is a total fucking sham.
80
Homegirl, I don't see anyone invading your privacy. And I've never met anyone who has "enjoyed" late-term abortions. This is a first.
81
To 78:
Please, vegans are harassed about being vegan all the damn time. And what you eat is no longer just your business when it's needlessly cruel or environmentally destructive.
I am sure none of us wackjobs have answered your question because it doesn't make any sense. Who said that protesting foie gras means that you support late term abortions?
Please, vegans are harassed about being vegan all the damn time. And what you eat is no longer just your business when it's needlessly cruel or environmentally destructive.
I am sure none of us wackjobs have answered your question because it doesn't make any sense. Who said that protesting foie gras means that you support late term abortions?
82
People are trying to outlaw vegans choices to eat? Where?when? Name one city?
Being laughed at is not the same as outlawing unless you're a 3 yr old.
Being laughed at is not the same as outlawing unless you're a 3 yr old.
85
Well if you're against torturing French farm animals why are you not against aborting 8 month human fetuses? Why is one morally repugnant to you the other not? That's all homegirl wants to know.
86
Angry? I'm not the one screaming at diners outside a restaurant on freezing Friday night. These clowns are as crazie as the pro life nuts.
87
Nobody said they weren't. But, since you ask, these two things would be comparable only if people went out to have late-term abortions for the sheer joy of it.
89
I have no 'chip on my shoulder" about vegans. If that is the diet you choose I respect your choice. Where some individual vegans have lost me is when they insist it is anything more than a dietary choice. The vegans I have known realize it is nothing more than that and they respect my right to my choice as much as I respect theirs.
90
I know plenty of people who've tried fois gras and didn't enjoy it. So it's ok to eat fois gras if you don't enjoy it?
92
@63,
You are really fucking stupid. Please don't breed.
Where are you going to get that protein, then? Your multivitamin?
You are really fucking stupid. Please don't breed.
93
Foie gras production is usually a cottage industry. Traditionally it was a means for a farm wife to provide some income for herself. Geese were cheap and they turned a good profit. I am curious as to why they protest an industry that is pretty small compared to the cattle or chicken industry in the United States. Yes the slaughter of animals is going to be considered uncivilized, but until someone can find a way to club a cow to death with pixie dust and rainbows, we are going to have to stick to our current methods. There are better ways to raise livestock and slaughter them so that the stress/pain is at a minimum. There are some farmers who subscribe to this method (and bless them for it) and I think it would be a wiser way to spend time fighting the chicken/cattle industry. You want to talk about inhumane go into a chicken battery farm. That is some sad tragic stuff.
I suggest watching the Anthony Bourdain Christmas episode where they visit a foie gras/goose farm, talk to a vet (about the anatomy of a goose or duck) and show exactly what goes on.
Farm life isn't tidy and pretty and some people have a problem with that.
It is fine if a person doesn't want to eat meat but I find it highly uncivilized for someone to tell me what I can and can not eat. I might come and bite you.
I suggest watching the Anthony Bourdain Christmas episode where they visit a foie gras/goose farm, talk to a vet (about the anatomy of a goose or duck) and show exactly what goes on.
Farm life isn't tidy and pretty and some people have a problem with that.
It is fine if a person doesn't want to eat meat but I find it highly uncivilized for someone to tell me what I can and can not eat. I might come and bite you.
94
@92 He's a 20 pounds underweight middle-aged guy who spends all day on the internet. Nobody will breed with him.
96
Angry? I'm not the one screaming at commenters on the Slog on a freezing Saturday night. These clowns are as crazie as the pro life nuts.
97
I hate these fucking puritanical assholes in the US. Telling us how to eat, how to fuck. Get on with your own joyless lives, the rest of us want some joie de vivre. I want to fuck how I like and eat how I like. You and the Moral Majority don't like? Well, don't do it.
98
I hate these fucking whackjob wingnuts on Slog. Telling us how to comment on Slog, how to fuck. Get on with your own joyless lives, the rest of us want some joie de vivre. I want to fuck how I like and comment how I like. You and Ballard Guy don't like? Well, don't do it.
100
Pout? I'd say Homegirl's in a full-blown snit. Poor thing, to get that aggro and wound up over some comments on the Internet.
102
Bethany, in that you glean no suffering on the part of these birds as per your Frist-like television diagnosis, I suspect you would no doubt volunteer to have Rick Steves watch as a French farmer sticks a long tube down your gullet.
Only a colossal idiot would take this video to represent the reality of most production of foie gras. Please go back to blogging school pronto.
Only a colossal idiot would take this video to represent the reality of most production of foie gras. Please go back to blogging school pronto.
103
People who think humans and animals are equals are mental cases. Seriously, get your heads examined. You're delusional and dangerous. As dangerous as the homophobes and other bigots that are ruining America and its freedoms.
105
Ballard Guy and Homegirl, where do you get all your bizarre analogies? Tell me, is there ANY treatment of animals that would be unacceptable to you (assuming that the end was somehow pleasurable for the perpetrator)?
106
People who get wound up and write aggro comments on the Internet are mental cases. Seriously, get your head examined. You're delusional and dangerous. As dangerous as the homophobes and other bigots that are ruining America and its freedoms.
107
" is there ANY treatment of animals that would be unacceptable to you"
Buggering them. Mind you, these folks would probably think that's fine.
Buggering them. Mind you, these folks would probably think that's fine.
109
" is there ANY treatment of commenters that would be unacceptable to you"
Buggering them. Mind you, Ballard Guy would probably think that's fine.
Buggering them. Mind you, Ballard Guy would probably think that's fine.
110
I wish I could fuck a lobe of foie, get it pregnant, then let it have a late term abortion and then humanely eat the shit out of it. How I want.
113
"Sex is great for this."
Sex with vegans makes would make geese stress free?
Maybe you missed my point about who was buggering these birds.
Sex with vegans makes would make geese stress free?
Maybe you missed my point about who was buggering these birds.
114
I'm not a vegan. But this post is beyond unacceptable. I have lost all respect for you, Bethany.
115
Ballard Man, you haven't answered the question. Run out of reason? Frankly, I love foie gras, but must now give it up, if only to distance myself from the meat-heads posting comments here. It must cause bitterness.
116
Rose I did answer. I find animal lovers buggering geese unacceptable because I don't need vegan jizz in my goose.
122
I hate that people can be successful as mediocre writers even when they don't bother putting much effort or research into their work. I mean, granted, I suppose blogs are supposed to be sloppy.... but it sort of makes me think twice about putting so much effort into school.
123
Also, why do people use protein as a justification to eat meat? I mean, seriously. You don't need that much protein, it can be really hard on the kidneys if you eat a lot of it. The ratios are: 45-65% carbohydrates, 20-35% from fat, and 10-35% from protein. Ideally, you'll be getting your fats from plant oils or fish; your carbohydrates should be complex and full of antioxidants (whole wheat, whole fruit, fresh/frozen veggies); and protein should be complete (you can add incomplete proteins to make complete proteins). If you go by that recommended ratio, you should only be having about 400 calories worth of protein if you aren't growing, body building, or pregnant. That's like one 8 ounce steak or a various assortment of plant proteins. Basically, what I'm saying is, when you're vegan or vegetarian, you get to eat more food for the same amount of calories & you'll still get your recommended protein amount. If anything, I'd see veganism or vegetarianism as a plus in that regard. Mmmm food.
124
"why do people use protein as a justification to eat meat?"
I agree! Why should we have to justify it to you at all!
I agree! Why should we have to justify it to you at all!
127
hey veggies....you do realize that your irrational and naive rantings just make meat eaters, who might otherwise be even-keeled and decent to your arguments, just want to say "deep fried kittens make the best bacon!!!".
the world is falling apart right now, if you havent already noticed, (if you havent, it means that those generalizations that say NARN members are trust funded white kids are 100% TRUE!) and protesting a local business, however yuppified it may be, for serving foie gras is fucking insane. the ship is going down and you literally are spending time complaining about the kitchen.
spoiled rich kids.
ps...yeah i know "spoiled rich kids actually eat foie gras..."bla bla bla...
animals are consumed by humans. for clothing, medicine, food.....it probably hurts them when they are harvested. fucking deal with it.
the alternative?? lose every possession that has any association with animal pain, dont associate with anyone who doesnt do that as well, and move to antarctica or something.
otherwise you are a hypocrite. being a US citizen MEANS you are part of this machine.
idiots.
the world is falling apart right now, if you havent already noticed, (if you havent, it means that those generalizations that say NARN members are trust funded white kids are 100% TRUE!) and protesting a local business, however yuppified it may be, for serving foie gras is fucking insane. the ship is going down and you literally are spending time complaining about the kitchen.
spoiled rich kids.
ps...yeah i know "spoiled rich kids actually eat foie gras..."bla bla bla...
animals are consumed by humans. for clothing, medicine, food.....it probably hurts them when they are harvested. fucking deal with it.
the alternative?? lose every possession that has any association with animal pain, dont associate with anyone who doesnt do that as well, and move to antarctica or something.
otherwise you are a hypocrite. being a US citizen MEANS you are part of this machine.
idiots.
129
animal rights people are so annoying. just, in general, pro/anti meat debate aside. that self-rightousness shit is unsufferable.
130
HAHA! I remember about a year ago a group of animal rights activists protested outside of Cafe Juanita against foie gras. My friend who works there told me they sold more foie gras that night than any night since they opened.
Hippies suck at everything they do.
Hippies suck at everything they do.
131
Rarely have I laughed so hard at a comment thread. Rarely. Rare. Mmmm...that reminds me, I have to start slaughtering these just-born kittens snuggled here in my lap and harvesting their marrow for the bloody bone drizzle I intend to pour over my bacon-wrapped/stuffed/infused baby seal fetus, which is just about ready to come out of the oven...mmm.
132
Joking about torturing kittens and puppies isn't shocking or funny. It doesn't get under my skin. It just makes you people look like unintelligent, soulless assholes.
And I find it a bit ironic that animal cruelty advocates get irate when animal rights activists suggest that factory farming is like a holocaust for chickens when they've got people on their side suggesting that vegetarians support late term abortions and are therefore, hypocritical. What's the correlation here? And really, is anyone besides Homegirl "for" late term abortions?
I've been a vegetarian for 17 years and not once have I felt like I was missing out. And just because I live in a country that consumes like 35 million tons of meat every year doesn't mean that I'm going to just "deal with it" and become part of the "machine." Do you stand up for nothing?
Since human flesh is similar to pig flesh, it would be okay to cannibalize because it tastes good, right? Right? No need to remind me that animals aren't on the same level as humans. They're innocent and we're...not. And I'm healthy and you're eating...shit. Bon appetit!
And I find it a bit ironic that animal cruelty advocates get irate when animal rights activists suggest that factory farming is like a holocaust for chickens when they've got people on their side suggesting that vegetarians support late term abortions and are therefore, hypocritical. What's the correlation here? And really, is anyone besides Homegirl "for" late term abortions?
I've been a vegetarian for 17 years and not once have I felt like I was missing out. And just because I live in a country that consumes like 35 million tons of meat every year doesn't mean that I'm going to just "deal with it" and become part of the "machine." Do you stand up for nothing?
Since human flesh is similar to pig flesh, it would be okay to cannibalize because it tastes good, right? Right? No need to remind me that animals aren't on the same level as humans. They're innocent and we're...not. And I'm healthy and you're eating...shit. Bon appetit!
133
These people are fucking retarded. Has anyone on this comment thread formally proposed a Foie Gras Festival yet (preferably hosted at Lark)?
If not, I'm proposing it right now. Lark, are you interested? I'll help organize...
If not, I'm proposing it right now. Lark, are you interested? I'll help organize...
134
okay, once more. Veganism is nothing but a dietary choice. It is no more valid of a choice-or less so than being an omnivour.
135
I think Heather is right, that Vegetarianism is a choice. Maybe I am stupid, but in my American experience, it is somewhat of a luxury.
I wonder, do you think any of the Suquamish people, the ones who originally lived in Seattle were vegetarians?
Maybe we should ask them if they would have eaten Foie Gras. Oh wait, we can't ask them, we kinda took their homes and put Seattle and Capital Hill on it.
I wonder, do you think any of the Suquamish people, the ones who originally lived in Seattle were vegetarians?
Maybe we should ask them if they would have eaten Foie Gras. Oh wait, we can't ask them, we kinda took their homes and put Seattle and Capital Hill on it.
137
"factory farming is like a holocaust for chickens "
I've got an idea, go up to a group of Holocaust survivors and say that. I dare you. I double dare.
Stupid white people.
I've got an idea, go up to a group of Holocaust survivors and say that. I dare you. I double dare.
Stupid white people.
138
BTW, T-bone veal on special at Whole Foods today guys! Grilll it, slice of lemon on the side. Pure heaven.
139
Just to correct some misinfo in the comments, cattle much prefer eating corn to eating grass. Growing up on a farm the most hated noise at 4 a.m. was the shout "cows in the corn" which meant that somehow one of our cattle had gotten out of the pasture, into the corn field, and quickly been followed by the rest of the herd for a frantic corn feed. At which point we were all required to go out in the dark with flashlights and try to get the cattle out of the corn.
Having said all that, I'm so tired of people telling others what they should protest. This post does a good job of putting forth an argument that these folks are lame. But they obviously feel differently. So to tell them they should focus their efforts elsewhere carries with it a level of arrogance and self importance that makes me want to wretch.
So to all the Bethany's of the world. I and others will protest whatever the fuck we want assholes. And please feel free to tell us why you think we are wrong, but don't presume to be such masterminds as to tell us what we should be protesting you arrogant pompous fucks.
Having said all that, I'm so tired of people telling others what they should protest. This post does a good job of putting forth an argument that these folks are lame. But they obviously feel differently. So to tell them they should focus their efforts elsewhere carries with it a level of arrogance and self importance that makes me want to wretch.
So to all the Bethany's of the world. I and others will protest whatever the fuck we want assholes. And please feel free to tell us why you think we are wrong, but don't presume to be such masterminds as to tell us what we should be protesting you arrogant pompous fucks.
140
Try chicken "faux gras" instead. It's cheap, uses ordinary chicken livers, lots of butter, and tastes wonderful. Here's the recipe:
http://www.gourmet.com/recipes/diaryofaf…
http://www.gourmet.com/recipes/diaryofaf…
141
@128 I think the strong flavor of the bacon might overpower the delicate nuances of taste in the fetus.
142
#135. Some of these same white vegans who live on the land that was once the home of native people twist the knife even further. They attempted to prevent Native Americans from hunting a whale. The survival of Native culture is more important than the life of one whale. I will personally assist the Native peoples in their whale hunting effort if I can help in any way. (whale sort tastes like chicken)
143
"I'm so tired of people telling others what they should protest."
So we're not allowed to counter-protest? Tear apart their arguments? Ridicule them? Challenge their thinking? Fight back? What kind of democracy do you want to live in?
And I agree with Ballard Man....how can you be more concerned with animal life than human life? Surely a true pro-life vegan would also oppose abortion? Why the hippocrisy? Because it's inconvenient?
So we're not allowed to counter-protest? Tear apart their arguments? Ridicule them? Challenge their thinking? Fight back? What kind of democracy do you want to live in?
And I agree with Ballard Man....how can you be more concerned with animal life than human life? Surely a true pro-life vegan would also oppose abortion? Why the hippocrisy? Because it's inconvenient?
144
@132 ...
"And I find it a bit ironic that animal cruelty advocates get irate when animal rights activists suggest that factory farming is like a holocaust for chickens ...
I live in a country that consumes like 35 million tons of meat every year doesn't mean that I'm going to just "deal with it" and become part of the "machine."
Since human flesh is similar to pig flesh, it would be okay to cannibalize because it tastes good, right?"
How can you with a straight face draw a direct comparison between a holocaust that killed Jews and even the most cruel factory farming. Sure, you can make the analogy but your sick logic in this case goes beyond that. And exactly what "machine" are you living in? Are you a victim of this machine or are you part of it? We all pay taxes, we all elect our officials and we all have to live with the imperfect consequences. Well, grown ups do, that is.
Eating human flesh ... same as eating pig flesh? That's nuts. The reason your arguments fall on deaf ears is because your logical leaps leave us all in the dust. Some day you'll look back on your ridiculous ranting and realize that unreasonable thinking leads to reinforcing your own flawed ideas while turning those you wish to recruit away from you.
If you believe in meaningfully impacting animal rights over your lifetime you'd do much better to hold rational arguments, realize that people will always eat meat and then try to reduce the amount and increase the quality of life of farmed animals (and therefore the quality of the meat supply - yes, it's good to think of the human impact). The whack job notion that ranting to you and the shrinking choir of vegan and veggies who think like you (most vegans & veggies think your behavior is nuts, by the way).
It's time to grow up and face the fact that, as much as this Vegan may beg to differ (yep, I'm a Vegan - but I am not remotely related to you in philosophy) with meat intake by humans, there's a real world of tax paying, engaged adults that can change the dynamic of meat production and consumption in this world. Come join us when you're out of your mental diapers.
More...
"And I find it a bit ironic that animal cruelty advocates get irate when animal rights activists suggest that factory farming is like a holocaust for chickens ...
I live in a country that consumes like 35 million tons of meat every year doesn't mean that I'm going to just "deal with it" and become part of the "machine."
Since human flesh is similar to pig flesh, it would be okay to cannibalize because it tastes good, right?"
How can you with a straight face draw a direct comparison between a holocaust that killed Jews and even the most cruel factory farming. Sure, you can make the analogy but your sick logic in this case goes beyond that. And exactly what "machine" are you living in? Are you a victim of this machine or are you part of it? We all pay taxes, we all elect our officials and we all have to live with the imperfect consequences. Well, grown ups do, that is.
Eating human flesh ... same as eating pig flesh? That's nuts. The reason your arguments fall on deaf ears is because your logical leaps leave us all in the dust. Some day you'll look back on your ridiculous ranting and realize that unreasonable thinking leads to reinforcing your own flawed ideas while turning those you wish to recruit away from you.
If you believe in meaningfully impacting animal rights over your lifetime you'd do much better to hold rational arguments, realize that people will always eat meat and then try to reduce the amount and increase the quality of life of farmed animals (and therefore the quality of the meat supply - yes, it's good to think of the human impact). The whack job notion that ranting to you and the shrinking choir of vegan and veggies who think like you (most vegans & veggies think your behavior is nuts, by the way).
It's time to grow up and face the fact that, as much as this Vegan may beg to differ (yep, I'm a Vegan - but I am not remotely related to you in philosophy) with meat intake by humans, there's a real world of tax paying, engaged adults that can change the dynamic of meat production and consumption in this world. Come join us when you're out of your mental diapers.
145
The legal action surrounding foie gras production indicates that it is not humane. Most recently, the National Advertising Division of the Better Business Bureau recommended that a purportedly ethical artisan foie gras producer discontinue making claims that its foie gras is produced humanely because that claim defied a reasonable consumer's expectations. In California, Sonoma Farms was prosecuted for animal cruelty and the charges were dropped as part of a compromise that included a statewide ban of foie gras production that will go into effect in 2012. The Israeli Supreme Court, using a cost-benefit analysis, determined that the cruelty inherent in foie gras was unjustifiable.
As to why NARN is protesting the sale of foie gras, it is because cruelty is inherent in the design of the product. Foie gras can't be produced without forcing a metal pipe down a bird's throat and pumping the gullet full of feed, causing the liver to expand to several times its normal size. Unlike other cruel practices in factory farming, like battery cages and sow gestation crates, the cruelty is not just a byproduct of the economics of large-scale industrial farming. If a movement is predicated upon ending needless suffering, inherently cruel products are a logical starting point.
As to why NARN is protesting the sale of foie gras, it is because cruelty is inherent in the design of the product. Foie gras can't be produced without forcing a metal pipe down a bird's throat and pumping the gullet full of feed, causing the liver to expand to several times its normal size. Unlike other cruel practices in factory farming, like battery cages and sow gestation crates, the cruelty is not just a byproduct of the economics of large-scale industrial farming. If a movement is predicated upon ending needless suffering, inherently cruel products are a logical starting point.
146
Bethany, your argument is completely foolish. You're basing your evidence and support for your argument on a Rick Steves program? If you want to pick NARN apart, that's fine, but why not:
1) Talk to Lark and find out where they get their foie gras. Is it from a farm that practices the most humane force-feeding possible? Or do they buy from a factory farm? Do they get their foie gras from the idyllic Dordogne farm that Rick Steves visited?
2) Talk to NARN and find out why they are protesting Lark. Did they do their research? Do they know where Lark gets foie gras? Have they tried talking with Lark's owner? Are they a bunch of crazy misguided loons, or do they have a valid point?
3) Do some research on foie gras. Yes, there are idyllic farms with geese running free in the pastures of the Dordogne. There are also gigantic factory farms raising geese and ducks in horrid conditions, which is why the practice of force-feeding is prohibited in many countries, and also why it is under consideration of an EU-wide ban.
4) You call on NARN to "focus on the larger issues". How do you know they aren't? It's obvious from your post that you didn't speak with them, investigate them, or bother to learn anything about this group. Maybe they are a bunch of radical whackos. Or maybe they are just passionate about a cause and have some valid points about why human beings need to force-feed animals to enlarge their livers just so we can enjoy a "gourmet" experience.
This is all just off the top of my head. From your post all I can glean is that you went to dinner at Lark and were pissed off that someone dared interrupt your meal. If that's the case, just say so, rather than trying to legitimize your case with some specious information from a travel show.
1) Talk to Lark and find out where they get their foie gras. Is it from a farm that practices the most humane force-feeding possible? Or do they buy from a factory farm? Do they get their foie gras from the idyllic Dordogne farm that Rick Steves visited?
2) Talk to NARN and find out why they are protesting Lark. Did they do their research? Do they know where Lark gets foie gras? Have they tried talking with Lark's owner? Are they a bunch of crazy misguided loons, or do they have a valid point?
3) Do some research on foie gras. Yes, there are idyllic farms with geese running free in the pastures of the Dordogne. There are also gigantic factory farms raising geese and ducks in horrid conditions, which is why the practice of force-feeding is prohibited in many countries, and also why it is under consideration of an EU-wide ban.
4) You call on NARN to "focus on the larger issues". How do you know they aren't? It's obvious from your post that you didn't speak with them, investigate them, or bother to learn anything about this group. Maybe they are a bunch of radical whackos. Or maybe they are just passionate about a cause and have some valid points about why human beings need to force-feed animals to enlarge their livers just so we can enjoy a "gourmet" experience.
This is all just off the top of my head. From your post all I can glean is that you went to dinner at Lark and were pissed off that someone dared interrupt your meal. If that's the case, just say so, rather than trying to legitimize your case with some specious information from a travel show.
147
I think that if everybody watched the video @11, a lot of people would shut the fuck up. Who really thinks that's ok?
You know. . . I largely stopped being the angry preachy vegetarian several years ago. Now I'm a live-and-let-live vegan. But I see those kinds of videos, and I remember why I spent so much time on angry rants.
Because it's NOT OK.
You wanna say I'm wrong? Watch the fucking video. Tell me why that's ok. Dare ya!
You know. . . I largely stopped being the angry preachy vegetarian several years ago. Now I'm a live-and-let-live vegan. But I see those kinds of videos, and I remember why I spent so much time on angry rants.
Because it's NOT OK.
You wanna say I'm wrong? Watch the fucking video. Tell me why that's ok. Dare ya!
148
It's not whether the video is right or wrong - your adamant reactionary non-logic doesn't further your cause. Jenn Kaplan (145) has a reasoned, compelling argument. Take a lesson from an adult vegan.
And as to attacking Bethany - this is a blog. You too can have a blog. Bethany wrote a well-conceived post from the vast majority of meat eaters. It's not an unreasonable position given the fact that people eat meat and eat inflated froie gras liver. Attacking an intelligent post by Bethany is once again a bunch of Evergreen white hippy shit that sets EVERYONE back. Believe it or not, froie gras and froie nah eaters have to live together - so lose the privledged hippy edge. (god, I miss straight edge thinking)
And as to attacking Bethany - this is a blog. You too can have a blog. Bethany wrote a well-conceived post from the vast majority of meat eaters. It's not an unreasonable position given the fact that people eat meat and eat inflated froie gras liver. Attacking an intelligent post by Bethany is once again a bunch of Evergreen white hippy shit that sets EVERYONE back. Believe it or not, froie gras and froie nah eaters have to live together - so lose the privledged hippy edge. (god, I miss straight edge thinking)
149
"Watch the fucking video. Tell me why that's ok. Dare ya!"
Watched it and think it's fine.
Now you take some fois gras please, I dare you to take a bite and not tell me it's divine, especially with a nice Rhone Valley red.
By the why, I find buggery unpleasant to watch too but wouldn't ban anyone from enjoying their pleasures.
Watched it and think it's fine.
Now you take some fois gras please, I dare you to take a bite and not tell me it's divine, especially with a nice Rhone Valley red.
By the why, I find buggery unpleasant to watch too but wouldn't ban anyone from enjoying their pleasures.
150
Thank you adult vegan for respecting my choices, as I respect yours.
God forbid Bethany not write what she likes on her blog, how can that be in a free country?
God forbid Bethany not write what she likes on her blog, how can that be in a free country?
151
Wow, all this arguing between you meat-eaters and non-meat-eaters is making me HUNGRY!
Does anyone know if Lunchbox Laboratory makes a "Foie gras burger"? 'Cause that sounds DELICIOUS right about now!
Does anyone know if Lunchbox Laboratory makes a "Foie gras burger"? 'Cause that sounds DELICIOUS right about now!
153
Of all the things to get worked up about, foie gras seems pretty much the poster child for Seattle silly protests. This is what makes the rest of the world think we are insane. Human beings in this wealthy country of ours are suffering. I put people before animals every time.
154
I think the general point here is that no one likes to be told what they can and cannot do. I realize that with all the angry meat-eaters out there it can be hard not to shove animal torture videos in their faces and try to shame them into becoming veg. BUT we vegans and vegetarians are in the minority. we have to be smarter than this. the less we use shock tactics the better. the less we target local businesses the better. people do not respond to well to orders.
I don't know why, but veg organizations never seem to spend much time thinking through their actions. asking someone to change their way of life is a big deal. if you want to make progress, you have to be nice. it's just how it works.
I don't know why, but veg organizations never seem to spend much time thinking through their actions. asking someone to change their way of life is a big deal. if you want to make progress, you have to be nice. it's just how it works.
155
#134 - Veganism is actually much more than a dietary choice. It's a lifestyle. Wiki it.
#136 - "foie gras is foul" is a play on words, fool.
#144 - I was not coming out and making this comparison. I was referring to #62 and the bizarre comparison that Homegirl is making. And nobody directly compares factory farming to the actual holocaust. The statement is that it is like a holocaust FROM THE CHICKEN'S PERSPECTIVE. How can anyone find this more outrageous than the argument that vegans should oppose abortion? Are women's bodies incubators for your next meal? What?
#144 - As for being a part of the "machine," I was referring to #127 who said that being a US citizen means I am a part of the animal harvesting machine and I should just deal with it. But I am not going to sit down and shut up when something's going on that I don't believe in...be it, animal cruelty or the war in Iraq, I am going to fight the machine.
#136 - "foie gras is foul" is a play on words, fool.
#144 - I was not coming out and making this comparison. I was referring to #62 and the bizarre comparison that Homegirl is making. And nobody directly compares factory farming to the actual holocaust. The statement is that it is like a holocaust FROM THE CHICKEN'S PERSPECTIVE. How can anyone find this more outrageous than the argument that vegans should oppose abortion? Are women's bodies incubators for your next meal? What?
#144 - As for being a part of the "machine," I was referring to #127 who said that being a US citizen means I am a part of the animal harvesting machine and I should just deal with it. But I am not going to sit down and shut up when something's going on that I don't believe in...be it, animal cruelty or the war in Iraq, I am going to fight the machine.
156
If veganism is a lifstyle then vegans should be able to accept that living that lifestyle is but one of many choices that we can freely make.
I am not convinced that veganism is anything more than a dietary choice. Also I would object to anybody who is pushy about what others should eat. If meat eaters were going around lecturing others that they have a moral duty to take up meat eating that would be just a ludicrous as what some vegans do. If carnivores went to a vegan restaurant to protest the lack of animal products on the menu it would look exactly as silly as NARN did when the were at Lark.
If you are against meat don't eat it. It is that simple.
I am not convinced that veganism is anything more than a dietary choice. Also I would object to anybody who is pushy about what others should eat. If meat eaters were going around lecturing others that they have a moral duty to take up meat eating that would be just a ludicrous as what some vegans do. If carnivores went to a vegan restaurant to protest the lack of animal products on the menu it would look exactly as silly as NARN did when the were at Lark.
If you are against meat don't eat it. It is that simple.
157
"Fifteen nations have either outlawed force feeding specifically or found it to be illegal under already existing anti-cruelty laws, and force feeding is under fire in France as well, where it is most prevalent":
http://banfoiegras.com/page.php?module=a…
Some compassionate restaurants that have removed foie gras from their menus:
http://www.stopforcefeeding.com/page.php…
There is a movement to stop foie gras production.
Get used to it.
http://banfoiegras.com/page.php?module=a…
Some compassionate restaurants that have removed foie gras from their menus:
http://www.stopforcefeeding.com/page.php…
There is a movement to stop foie gras production.
Get used to it.
158
@148, "well-conceived post"? Using as proof of her argument a travel show that visited one foie gras goose farm in France? Not speaking to either side to get any actual information? Dismissing the protesters by telling them they "should focus on bigger issues" without actually learning anything about them? How is that "well-conceived"?
And yes, any of us can have a blog. But Bethany actually works for a "newspaper" and blog, one that accepts comments. Commenting on her posts is part of the game. Besides that, as commenters we are adding to the hits that The Stranger's web site gets, which helps justify their ad rates to the businesses and individuals that buy ad space online and in print, which pays Bethany's paycheck. I read the Stranger and Slog, so I contribute to those hits, and as a reader, I want better reporting, just as the Stranger regularly demands from other print, web and TV news sources. How many posts have we read from Dan, ECB, Dominic and others criticizing hack reporting at the Times, P-I, KOMO, King5 and KIRO? Fair's fair, and when a Stranger reporter acts like a hack, they're going to get called on it.
And yes, any of us can have a blog. But Bethany actually works for a "newspaper" and blog, one that accepts comments. Commenting on her posts is part of the game. Besides that, as commenters we are adding to the hits that The Stranger's web site gets, which helps justify their ad rates to the businesses and individuals that buy ad space online and in print, which pays Bethany's paycheck. I read the Stranger and Slog, so I contribute to those hits, and as a reader, I want better reporting, just as the Stranger regularly demands from other print, web and TV news sources. How many posts have we read from Dan, ECB, Dominic and others criticizing hack reporting at the Times, P-I, KOMO, King5 and KIRO? Fair's fair, and when a Stranger reporter acts like a hack, they're going to get called on it.
159
Heather, veganism is more than a dietary choice. If that is what you choose to believe, you are ignorant. It is about not exploiting animals, using animals as resources and against cruelty.
So, your argument about meat eaters protesting vegan restaurants would be not about lack of meat....but a lack of cruel products available to them.
And...meat eaters DO lecture vegetarians and vegans on what to eat..from we're not getting enough protein, complete proteins and how "tasty" it is..blah blah blah. All ridiculous arguments.
We are against animal cruelty and animal exploitation, period. It is not just a "dietary preference".
People are annoyed by extremists, but it's extremists that push things along.
So, your argument about meat eaters protesting vegan restaurants would be not about lack of meat....but a lack of cruel products available to them.
And...meat eaters DO lecture vegetarians and vegans on what to eat..from we're not getting enough protein, complete proteins and how "tasty" it is..blah blah blah. All ridiculous arguments.
We are against animal cruelty and animal exploitation, period. It is not just a "dietary preference".
People are annoyed by extremists, but it's extremists that push things along.
160
Heather,
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/27/weekin…
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Americans eat about the same amount of meat as we have for some time, about eight ounces a day, roughly twice the global average. At about 5 percent of the world’s population, we “process” (that is, grow and kill) nearly 10 billion animals a year, more than 15 percent of the world’s total.
Growing meat (it’s hard to use the word “raising” when applied to animals in factory farms) uses so many resources that it’s a challenge to enumerate them all. But consider: an estimated 30 percent of the earth’s ice-free land is directly or indirectly involved in livestock production, according to the United Nation’s Food and Agriculture Organization, which also estimates that livestock production generates nearly a fifth of the world’s greenhouse gases — more than transportation.
To put the energy-using demand of meat production into easy-to-understand terms, Gidon Eshel, a geophysicist at the Bard Center, and Pamela A. Martin, an assistant professor of geophysics at the University of Chicago, calculated that if Americans were to reduce meat consumption by just 20 percent it would be as if we all switched from a standard sedan — a Camry, say — to the ultra-efficient Prius. Similarly, a study last year by the National Institute of Livestock and Grassland Science in Japan estimated that 2.2 pounds of beef is responsible for the equivalent amount of carbon dioxide emitted by the average European car every 155 miles, and burns enough energy to light a 100-watt bulb for nearly 20 days.
Grain, meat and even energy are roped together in a way that could have dire results. More meat means a corresponding increase in demand for feed, especially corn and soy, which some experts say will contribute to higher prices.
This will be inconvenient for citizens of wealthier nations, but it could have tragic consequences for those of poorer ones, especially if higher prices for feed divert production away from food crops. The demand for ethanol is already pushing up prices, and explains, in part, the 40 percent rise last year in the food price index calculated by the United Nations’ Food and Agricultural Organization.
Though some 800 million people on the planet now suffer from hunger or malnutrition, the majority of corn and soy grown in the world feeds cattle, pigs and chickens. This despite the inherent inefficiencies: about two to five times more grain is required to produce the same amount of calories through livestock as through direct grain consumption, according to Rosamond Naylor, an associate professor of economics at Stanford University. It is as much as 10 times more in the case of grain-fed beef in the United States.
The environmental impact of growing so much grain for animal feed is profound. Agriculture in the United States — much of which now serves the demand for meat — contributes to nearly three-quarters of all water-quality problems in the nation’s rivers and streams, according to the Environmental Protection Agency.
Because the stomachs of cattle are meant to digest grass, not grain, cattle raised industrially thrive only in the sense that they gain weight quickly. This diet made it possible to remove cattle from their natural environment and encourage the efficiency of mass confinement and slaughter. But it causes enough health problems that administration of antibiotics is routine, so much so that it can result in antibiotic-resistant bacteria that threaten the usefulness of medicines that treat people.
Those grain-fed animals, in turn, are contributing to health problems among the world’s wealthier citizens — heart disease, some types of cancer, diabetes. The argument that meat provides useful protein makes sense, if the quantities are small. But the “you gotta eat meat” claim collapses at American levels. Even if the amount of meat we eat weren’t harmful, it’s way more than enough.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/27/weekin…
163
@159:
okay. I suppose it's true that extremists have, on some occasions, "pushed things along." But people have been eating meat forever. literally. food is a huge deal in any culture. it comes with a lot of different associations- especially emotional ones. As a person who intends to stay vegan for my whole life, I know that if my grandfather was alive today and fixed me a hamburger, I would eat it because being with him means so much to me that I wouldn't be willing to refuse him anything. To become vegetarian means that people have to come to terms with never eating certain things again- perhaps traditional family dishes or things that remind them of happy times, etc. I'm not saying that that's impossible- I did it, and I feel better for it- but we need to be sensitive to what we are asking people to do, and be supportive, not demanding.
that said, I think that veganism can be a dietary choice for some people (ie people who are doing it purely for health benefits) but for many it is more than that. for instance, I make sure to avoid leather products as well as animal-based food. I also consider being vegan to be a part of who I am and a how I see the world.
okay. I suppose it's true that extremists have, on some occasions, "pushed things along." But people have been eating meat forever. literally. food is a huge deal in any culture. it comes with a lot of different associations- especially emotional ones. As a person who intends to stay vegan for my whole life, I know that if my grandfather was alive today and fixed me a hamburger, I would eat it because being with him means so much to me that I wouldn't be willing to refuse him anything. To become vegetarian means that people have to come to terms with never eating certain things again- perhaps traditional family dishes or things that remind them of happy times, etc. I'm not saying that that's impossible- I did it, and I feel better for it- but we need to be sensitive to what we are asking people to do, and be supportive, not demanding.
that said, I think that veganism can be a dietary choice for some people (ie people who are doing it purely for health benefits) but for many it is more than that. for instance, I make sure to avoid leather products as well as animal-based food. I also consider being vegan to be a part of who I am and a how I see the world.
164
my GOD this is awesome. can we get everybody on this together under the same roof??? although i'm pretty positive that theres like 9 anti Foie Gras people just posting and posting pretending to be different douches.
everyones watched the videos. not a game changer.
stupidest thing to protest ever.
ps-geese are mean.
everyones watched the videos. not a game changer.
stupidest thing to protest ever.
ps-geese are mean.
165
164, unlike "Homegirl", "Ballard Guy" and "Ballard Man" who are just posting and posting, and who are actual douches.
166
No matter how you choose to label veganism it remains a dietary choice. Your right to protest meat eating and my right to continue eating meat are two sides of the same coin. Choice. Get it?
Human beings have been eating meat and fish since the beginning of time. In the 21st century the scale is larger and the resources put into it are greater than a few hundred years ago. It is also governed by the profit motive and all that it involves. No matter what system is in place human beings will always eat meat.
Get used to it.
Human beings have been eating meat and fish since the beginning of time. In the 21st century the scale is larger and the resources put into it are greater than a few hundred years ago. It is also governed by the profit motive and all that it involves. No matter what system is in place human beings will always eat meat.
Get used to it.
167
Chickens have a perspective on the holocaust?
And having an abortion is ok because the baby is thrown in the trash? At least we eat the goose. Sorry you're a hippocrit if you find late term abortions ok but force feeding geese morally unacceptable. At least I understand people have a right to both.
And having an abortion is ok because the baby is thrown in the trash? At least we eat the goose. Sorry you're a hippocrit if you find late term abortions ok but force feeding geese morally unacceptable. At least I understand people have a right to both.
168
Citrus, I appreciate your thoughts. I was raised on beef, pork, poultry etc. and am now a vegetarian. Yes, people have been eating it since the beginning of time and probably always will. That seems an obvious statement.
That being said, if my grandfather (whom I watched slaughter a pig on our family farm and I dare anyone to watch that without feelings) offered me a hamburger, I would just say no thank you and enjoy the time together anyway.
Just because something has been done forever, doesn't validate it. There are many things that have been traditions that we no longer observe. I understand that people don't like to be pushed and it turns people off. But, it gets people talking and thinking and defining where they are coming from and maybe make different choices.
Nobody is getting harmed by protest, nobody is getting harmed by talking, nobody is getting harmed by disagreeing etc.
But..as far as dietary "choice"...products that are cruel and inhumane will hopeful one day not be available to those who wish to choose them.
That being said, if my grandfather (whom I watched slaughter a pig on our family farm and I dare anyone to watch that without feelings) offered me a hamburger, I would just say no thank you and enjoy the time together anyway.
Just because something has been done forever, doesn't validate it. There are many things that have been traditions that we no longer observe. I understand that people don't like to be pushed and it turns people off. But, it gets people talking and thinking and defining where they are coming from and maybe make different choices.
Nobody is getting harmed by protest, nobody is getting harmed by talking, nobody is getting harmed by disagreeing etc.
But..as far as dietary "choice"...products that are cruel and inhumane will hopeful one day not be available to those who wish to choose them.
169
"(It's been going on) since the beginning of time" is a poor justification for unconscious meat consumption. Primitive man didn't have near the amount of resources that we do in this day and age. I'm not taking away anyone's right to choose to be carnivorous, I'm simply asking people to think about what they are eating and where it came from. Foie gras is a cruel and absolutely unnecessary product. Would your quality of life diminish if it was not available to you? Really?
170
Against child abuse? Don’t do it. Against raping women? Just don’t do it yourself, but this is a free country and you have to let other people make their own choices. Too bad for the women, though, I guess…
171
Here's a thing. It seems to be agreed upon (I think) that at least *some* farms that produce foie gras do so humanely, or as humane as a farm can be (witness the Rick Steves video, the farm that Dominic saw). Maybe not all of them do, but at least some of them do.
It also seems clear that Lark tries their hardest to get their ingredients from farmers who follow sustainable and humane practices.
Why should we assume that Lark isn't getting their foie gras from the good guys?
'Cause let's face it -- commenter #144 has it right. In the bubble of Seattle it might seem like someday everyone might be vegans, but I come from the Midwest, and I'm telling you, ain't never gonna happen. The least we can do is patronize the farmers and restaurants who practice and support sustainable and humane farming so that they don't go out of business and leave us with the factory farms.
It also seems clear that Lark tries their hardest to get their ingredients from farmers who follow sustainable and humane practices.
Why should we assume that Lark isn't getting their foie gras from the good guys?
'Cause let's face it -- commenter #144 has it right. In the bubble of Seattle it might seem like someday everyone might be vegans, but I come from the Midwest, and I'm telling you, ain't never gonna happen. The least we can do is patronize the farmers and restaurants who practice and support sustainable and humane farming so that they don't go out of business and leave us with the factory farms.
172
Folks, if you think foie gras can be produced humanely, I’ve got some Weapons of Mass Destruction to show you in Iraq.
173
Thanks for weighing in, everybody. Lark chef/owner John Sundstrom called me back last night; his response—including where they source their foie—is now posted here. Ironically, Lark's been selling more foie gras than ever during the protests.
174
Why is "we've always done it" a good argument against eating meat? Up until about 150 years ago we practiced human slavery, something that almost every culture in the world at some point had done. That argument fails to examine the actual consequences of an action. Considering that human cultural is constantly evolving and abandoning outdated beliefs in favor of new ones saying "we've always done it" is pretty trivial.
176
I'm looking forward to the follow up article where Lark talks about how their sales tripled due to the fanatics harassing them outside.
It must be hard to be an aimless well off white person with nothing in particular to feel passionate about. Manufacturing issues like this must be a rewarding hobby for them.
I hope they are moderately successful so that they will make fois slightly cheaper for me to buy.
On a somewhat related note, I'm looking forward to going to Japan and eating horse. Horsies are cute and therefore illegal to eat here. Talk about banning foie gras makes about as much sense.
It must be hard to be an aimless well off white person with nothing in particular to feel passionate about. Manufacturing issues like this must be a rewarding hobby for them.
I hope they are moderately successful so that they will make fois slightly cheaper for me to buy.
On a somewhat related note, I'm looking forward to going to Japan and eating horse. Horsies are cute and therefore illegal to eat here. Talk about banning foie gras makes about as much sense.
177
Hey, if I saw someone kicking their dog at the park, I’d look the other way. After all, it probably feels really good to the guy doing the kicking, and people might think I was a wacko if I said something. Besides, animals and humans are not the same, so I can’t speak for how the dog must feel. God put them on this earth as resources for people, right?
178
Ok so we have one person comparing fois gras to rape, one comparing it to slavery.
Thanks for the laffs morons.
Thanks for the laffs morons.
179
@168: Alright, I can see what you're saying. With the grandpa thing I guess I feel that way because while he was a really nice man he was old and set in his ways and would never understand why I became vegan. I mean, I don't really know what I would do in a situation comparable to that, but my point was that people have very strong ties to certain foods.
It is important to get people talking though. I'm just not sure that protesting a small, local restaurant is the right way to do it. That doesn't mean that all protesting is unhelpful... but I really think that with this particular protest NARN didn't do a very good job. Other people have said it doesn't matter, but I think the fact that Lark is small and locally owned has a great deal to do with how this protest was received. It doesn't even sound like they did any research into the actual source of the foie gras.
anyway, P, thank you for your thoughtful, intelligent response.
It is important to get people talking though. I'm just not sure that protesting a small, local restaurant is the right way to do it. That doesn't mean that all protesting is unhelpful... but I really think that with this particular protest NARN didn't do a very good job. Other people have said it doesn't matter, but I think the fact that Lark is small and locally owned has a great deal to do with how this protest was received. It doesn't even sound like they did any research into the actual source of the foie gras.
anyway, P, thank you for your thoughtful, intelligent response.
181
Ballard Guy you're the moron. No one said that foie gras was the moral equivalent of human rape or slavery, we're critiquing the style of argument being made against the animal rights position. In any an argument pertaining to human rights saying "but we've always done it that way" or "if you think something is immoral don't do it, but don't tell other people not to do it" are unconvincing. Why are they suddenly logical or convincing when we're talking about animals?
183
I would like to ask NARN/PETA members a serious, slightly off-topic, question.
I am unable to eat either gluten or soy. Both make me very sick. But I tried to be a vegetarian (but not vegan, since I already have a hell of a lot of restrictions) anyway: no meat, no gluten, no soy.
My health greatly deteriorated during those two meat-free years. I'm very physically active and could not get enough protein from eggs and legumes; I would get muscle cramps and sometimes pass out trying to exercise. I was also anemic and hypoglycemic, despite eating as much leafy greens as I could get (and taking supplements) and regulating sugar and carb intake. Additionally, I suffer from hormone-imbalance PMDD (which is why I don't eat soy and other phyto-estrogens) and severe depression and anxiety. I was in and out of the hospital about every other month during this time.
Finally I found a new health care provider: he was (and is) an ER nurse and a faculty member at Bastyr. He took one look at me after hearing my medical history and said, "You're really out of balance. Why aren't you eating meat? A steak would do you good."
So I added meat, particularly red meat, back into my diet, slowly. Now, eight years later, I am just as active, have less body fat, do not suffer from extreme anemia, have reasonably well-regulated hormones and blood sugar, and am no longer in constant fear of my life due to my mental illness. I eat meat about once a day, sometimes less (I know it's time to eat meat when I've had only beans for a week and start craving chicken, which is too-frequently boring), sometimes a lot more, depending on my financial situation. I try to always eat ethically-treated animals, but I'm poor and can't always afford it.
Since the only other applicable change in this instance is adding a low dose of prescription psychotropes and a different therapist (though I find meat particularly aids in suppressing my anxiety), much of my good health can be credited with the consumption of animal proteins, particularly meat and milk.
My question is: how do you allow for the people in the world who, for whatever physical reason, literally can't live without the consumption of meat? Some people are more healthy without meat or animal proteins, but I'm not one of them. I find it unfair that people who live the way I do -- as ethically as possible while still living a mentally and physically healthy life -- are just as damned as the puppy-kickers in the eyes of some.
About foie gras: as I've learned with my life and diet, it's rare that life can be boiled down into extremes. There are are probably producers on the wicked, abusive side and on the ethical-as-possible side, and everywhere in between. It sounds like nearly everyone in this fight needs to do a little more research.
Foie gras is like an upper-class bacon: for cultural reasons, it might never going to go away, so we might as well focus first on making it as decent as possible before outlawing it entirely.
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I am unable to eat either gluten or soy. Both make me very sick. But I tried to be a vegetarian (but not vegan, since I already have a hell of a lot of restrictions) anyway: no meat, no gluten, no soy.
My health greatly deteriorated during those two meat-free years. I'm very physically active and could not get enough protein from eggs and legumes; I would get muscle cramps and sometimes pass out trying to exercise. I was also anemic and hypoglycemic, despite eating as much leafy greens as I could get (and taking supplements) and regulating sugar and carb intake. Additionally, I suffer from hormone-imbalance PMDD (which is why I don't eat soy and other phyto-estrogens) and severe depression and anxiety. I was in and out of the hospital about every other month during this time.
Finally I found a new health care provider: he was (and is) an ER nurse and a faculty member at Bastyr. He took one look at me after hearing my medical history and said, "You're really out of balance. Why aren't you eating meat? A steak would do you good."
So I added meat, particularly red meat, back into my diet, slowly. Now, eight years later, I am just as active, have less body fat, do not suffer from extreme anemia, have reasonably well-regulated hormones and blood sugar, and am no longer in constant fear of my life due to my mental illness. I eat meat about once a day, sometimes less (I know it's time to eat meat when I've had only beans for a week and start craving chicken, which is too-frequently boring), sometimes a lot more, depending on my financial situation. I try to always eat ethically-treated animals, but I'm poor and can't always afford it.
Since the only other applicable change in this instance is adding a low dose of prescription psychotropes and a different therapist (though I find meat particularly aids in suppressing my anxiety), much of my good health can be credited with the consumption of animal proteins, particularly meat and milk.
My question is: how do you allow for the people in the world who, for whatever physical reason, literally can't live without the consumption of meat? Some people are more healthy without meat or animal proteins, but I'm not one of them. I find it unfair that people who live the way I do -- as ethically as possible while still living a mentally and physically healthy life -- are just as damned as the puppy-kickers in the eyes of some.
About foie gras: as I've learned with my life and diet, it's rare that life can be boiled down into extremes. There are are probably producers on the wicked, abusive side and on the ethical-as-possible side, and everywhere in between. It sounds like nearly everyone in this fight needs to do a little more research.
Foie gras is like an upper-class bacon: for cultural reasons, it might never going to go away, so we might as well focus first on making it as decent as possible before outlawing it entirely.
184
@183 I can't speak for all vegans/ animal rights activists, but I believe you do what's within your reasonable capacity to alleviate animal suffering. If you have unique health needs than eating meat once a day and humanely raised when you can afford it is reasonably acting within you're abilities. I'd say the same thing about a person recovering from an eating disorder who found food restriction inherent in a vegan diet triggering. That person wouldn't be a good candidate for veganism.
I realize that there's a lot of constraints on being a vegan for most people and advocating an all or nothing approach isn't very productive. The best strategy is to cut out inhumane, luxury meats like foie gras (same way we criminalize dog fights) and minimize animal suffering where we can.
Some people will be able to be completely vegan and some won't, but that doesn't mean we don't try where we can.
I realize that there's a lot of constraints on being a vegan for most people and advocating an all or nothing approach isn't very productive. The best strategy is to cut out inhumane, luxury meats like foie gras (same way we criminalize dog fights) and minimize animal suffering where we can.
Some people will be able to be completely vegan and some won't, but that doesn't mean we don't try where we can.
185
cressona@55:
Oh, cress. The world must be a very hard place when you're such a sensitive person.
Oh, cress. The world must be a very hard place when you're such a sensitive person.
186
Citrus...the foie gras served at Lark is from Sonoma, one of three major suppliers of foie gras in the U.S.: http://www.banfoiegras.org/page.php?modu…
I have emailed to ask Lark about this, but never received a response, though I was polite. Apparently he was only interested in speaking to Bethany who wrote this advertisement for foie gras and Lark.
Whatever anyone thinks about this demonstration being misguided, I personally have seen people come out of Larks saying and talking with protestors and reading pamphlets on foie gras and say they won't be eating in the future or didn't know about foie gras. I have also gotten messages online from people as to the same effect
Again, about the "choice/free country" argument that comes up...I agree. BUT, I don't think anyone has the "right" to cruel products. Why would anyone choose that?
I have emailed to ask Lark about this, but never received a response, though I was polite. Apparently he was only interested in speaking to Bethany who wrote this advertisement for foie gras and Lark.
Whatever anyone thinks about this demonstration being misguided, I personally have seen people come out of Larks saying and talking with protestors and reading pamphlets on foie gras and say they won't be eating in the future or didn't know about foie gras. I have also gotten messages online from people as to the same effect
Again, about the "choice/free country" argument that comes up...I agree. BUT, I don't think anyone has the "right" to cruel products. Why would anyone choose that?
187
Sonoma Foie Gras, which provides Lark with foie gras, is actually one of the reasons for a statewide California ban on production and sale of force-fed foie gras by 2012:
Here's the bill: http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2004/09…
Even Schwarzenegger recognizes that foie gras production is inhumane. It's ridiculous that Bethany cites Anthony Bourdain of all people as proof that foie gras is humanely produced. Whatever her beef with NARN, vegans and whomever else, fine, but at least she could make a well-reasoned argument and back it up with some actual research and evidence - not claims of humane production by self-proclaimed vegetarian-hater Bourdain and (ahem) the Sonoma Foie Gras company.
That's why I'm nominating her for Stupid Fucking Credulous Hack of the week. If Dan and Dominic and ECB have any credibility whatsoever, they'll name her SFCH. After all, they dish that term out regularly to other local reporters when they find their reporting to be slanted, biased and based on deceptive or patently false evidence.
More...
Investigations of foie gras production facilities provide a rare glimpse into this ugly world. In 1992 a police raid on a New York state foie gras producer resulted in cruelty charges. Necropsies taken of the dead birds revealed many painful conditions: The force-fed birds had chronic heart disorders, ruptured liver cell membranes, cirrhosis, traumatic esophagitis, and lesions in their gizzards and intestines. Dead birds were found with food filling their throats and spilling out of their nostrils.
Eleven years later, in 2003, Farm Sanctuary, an animal advocacy organization, requested that the San Joaquin County California District Attorney investigate Sonoma Foie Gras for alleged violations of the state's animal cruelty statute. Farm Sanctuary provided the attorney with evidence that showed filthy ducks, bloodied ducks, ducks unable to stand or walk, ducks having difficulty breathing, and dead ducks lying in cages among those still clinging to life. This evidence added to the pressure that finally led to the bill being passed.
Here's the bill: http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2004/09…
Even Schwarzenegger recognizes that foie gras production is inhumane. It's ridiculous that Bethany cites Anthony Bourdain of all people as proof that foie gras is humanely produced. Whatever her beef with NARN, vegans and whomever else, fine, but at least she could make a well-reasoned argument and back it up with some actual research and evidence - not claims of humane production by self-proclaimed vegetarian-hater Bourdain and (ahem) the Sonoma Foie Gras company.
That's why I'm nominating her for Stupid Fucking Credulous Hack of the week. If Dan and Dominic and ECB have any credibility whatsoever, they'll name her SFCH. After all, they dish that term out regularly to other local reporters when they find their reporting to be slanted, biased and based on deceptive or patently false evidence.
188
Accosting my wife and I as we enter Lark for dinner does aboslutely nothing to endear us to your cause. If by chance a protester reads this, you night consider changing your chant. From inside Lark it sounds like you are all chanting "daa da daaa da da, Foie Gras!" Which, speaking from experience, is quite a catchy theme for foie gras consumption. In fact I think Sydney Smith summed it up best,
"My idea of heaven is eating pates de foie gras to the sound of trumpets."
No trumpets necessary for your illustrious group.
"My idea of heaven is eating pates de foie gras to the sound of trumpets."
No trumpets necessary for your illustrious group.
189
@ 188 - I have been to 3 protests at Lark, nobody has "accosted" a customer, unless you consider being offered a pamphlet being accosted. Nobody has blocked the entrance and protestors have kept the sidewalks clear.
-------------
This place in Portland has stopped serving foie gras over protests: http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2008/08…
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This place in Portland has stopped serving foie gras over protests: http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2008/08…
190
Lisa: When will all those fools learn that you can be perfectly healthy
simply eating vegetables, fruits, grains and cheese.
Apu: Oh, cheese!
Lisa: You don't eat cheese, Apu?
Apu: No I don't eat any food that comes from an animal.
Lisa: Ohh, then you must think I'm a monster!
Apu: Yes indeed I do think that. But, I learned long ago Lisa to
tolerate others rather than forcing my beliefs on them. You know
you can influence people without badgering them always. It's like
Paul's song, "Live and Let Live".
Paul: Actually, it was "Live and Let Die".
Apu: Well, whatever, whatever. it had a good rhythm.
simply eating vegetables, fruits, grains and cheese.
Apu: Oh, cheese!
Lisa: You don't eat cheese, Apu?
Apu: No I don't eat any food that comes from an animal.
Lisa: Ohh, then you must think I'm a monster!
Apu: Yes indeed I do think that. But, I learned long ago Lisa to
tolerate others rather than forcing my beliefs on them. You know
you can influence people without badgering them always. It's like
Paul's song, "Live and Let Live".
Paul: Actually, it was "Live and Let Die".
Apu: Well, whatever, whatever. it had a good rhythm.
191
The use of the whole holocaust image is just misguided-the point of the holocaust was to wipe out European Jewry. The point of factory farming is to grow as many more chickens as possible, as fast as possible. It's the furthest thing from a genocide imaginable.
That said, shall we worry about the slew of more important things than force-fed geese? Why not protest the lack of adequate health care for poor, sick, suffering humans? Try picketing a hospital or two and see if you can get them to give free care to the needy.
It's as much the pettiness of the protest as it's irritation value that rankle; a bunch of over-educated white kids complaining about a choice that few than 1,000 people in Seattle make per week.
Why would anyone want a product based on cruelty? Because China-made goods are affordable to the new poor. Chinese factory conditions are damn near as bad as factory farm conditions-how's about protesting over at Wal-Mart, the largest purchaser of Chinese goods in the world?
That said, shall we worry about the slew of more important things than force-fed geese? Why not protest the lack of adequate health care for poor, sick, suffering humans? Try picketing a hospital or two and see if you can get them to give free care to the needy.
It's as much the pettiness of the protest as it's irritation value that rankle; a bunch of over-educated white kids complaining about a choice that few than 1,000 people in Seattle make per week.
Why would anyone want a product based on cruelty? Because China-made goods are affordable to the new poor. Chinese factory conditions are damn near as bad as factory farm conditions-how's about protesting over at Wal-Mart, the largest purchaser of Chinese goods in the world?
192
I realize nobody is actually reading/thinking/listening at this point, so I can just think out loud and it won't matter. :)
Nobody can care about every bad thing in the world. Our heads would explode. But over and over I hear veg*ns shit on for caring about animals when there's war and famine and whatnot happening.
You know. . . I get that. But, two things:
- I know the suffering of animals doesn't matter to a lot of people. But I see suffering as suffering. I do consider the life of an aware, conscious human to be more important than the life of a bird, for various reasons. But when it comes down to it, a bird's suffering is not relieved by the fact that humans don't think it matters. As far as the bird's experience of life, the misery is completely real and relevant. Imagine some more advanced alien species testing their household products on you or something. You're like a mouse in its eyes. Do you suffer less in the face of their superiority?
- My contribution to war and famine, while it may be real, is indirect and unintentional. And very hard for me to change (I'd have to leave my country/culture, etc). My contribution to the suffering of animals used for food and such, however, is something that I can control to a much, much larger extent. And I feel morally obligated, as well as emotionally compelled, not to cause that suffering if I don't have to. I accept that other people don't feel emotionally compelled, and don't accept the moral obligation. I wish you did, though. Getting out of Iraq? Hard. Making different food choices? Not so hard.
I guess I'll agree to be "ridiculous" if you'll agree to be "senselessly cruel". Deal?
Nobody can care about every bad thing in the world. Our heads would explode. But over and over I hear veg*ns shit on for caring about animals when there's war and famine and whatnot happening.
You know. . . I get that. But, two things:
- I know the suffering of animals doesn't matter to a lot of people. But I see suffering as suffering. I do consider the life of an aware, conscious human to be more important than the life of a bird, for various reasons. But when it comes down to it, a bird's suffering is not relieved by the fact that humans don't think it matters. As far as the bird's experience of life, the misery is completely real and relevant. Imagine some more advanced alien species testing their household products on you or something. You're like a mouse in its eyes. Do you suffer less in the face of their superiority?
- My contribution to war and famine, while it may be real, is indirect and unintentional. And very hard for me to change (I'd have to leave my country/culture, etc). My contribution to the suffering of animals used for food and such, however, is something that I can control to a much, much larger extent. And I feel morally obligated, as well as emotionally compelled, not to cause that suffering if I don't have to. I accept that other people don't feel emotionally compelled, and don't accept the moral obligation. I wish you did, though. Getting out of Iraq? Hard. Making different food choices? Not so hard.
I guess I'll agree to be "ridiculous" if you'll agree to be "senselessly cruel". Deal?
193
@192:
Nice sense of perspective. No, I'm not being sarcastic.
I was a vegetarian for many years (now I occasionally eat fish--they taste better than my sense of guilt) because, like you, I didn't want to be directly responsible for another animal's suffering. But as strong as I felt about this (OK, not that strong), I didn't ever tell anyone else not to eat meat. I never protested outside of a local restaurant. I don't cast my vote based on which politicians eat meat and which don't, nor do I limit my social relationships to people who eat like I do.
I did protest the war in Iraq (fat lot of good it did), and I did base my voting decisions, in a large part, on that and similar issues. I give a fair chunk of my income to charities which try to alleviate human suffering and provide human justice, though I could give more.
I guess that's the perspective I'd like to see from the NARN types. They say they should be commended for speaking their minds--assuming that those of us who don't protest at Lark don't believe in protesting. But by working for change on this issue--an issue I may agree with them on in conclusion, if not in consequence--rather than for another, NARN is saying that they consider goose lives to be more important than human lives.
They're not holding a combined anti-war/anti-foie-gras protest. They're not raising money to save Iraqi orphans while in front of Lark. They're spending their time--time they could be working towards a different cause--worrying about fucking birds.
If any NARN supporters are reading this, there's one question I've always wanted to ask. If, in some weird, totally hypothetical world, you had a finite amount of resources to improve someone's welfare. Let's say you were in charge of a large charitable foundation, and you could spend the resources of that foundation treating third world malaria or lobbying to save the whales.
Which would you choose? The whales, or the little colored babies?
More...
Nice sense of perspective. No, I'm not being sarcastic.
I was a vegetarian for many years (now I occasionally eat fish--they taste better than my sense of guilt) because, like you, I didn't want to be directly responsible for another animal's suffering. But as strong as I felt about this (OK, not that strong), I didn't ever tell anyone else not to eat meat. I never protested outside of a local restaurant. I don't cast my vote based on which politicians eat meat and which don't, nor do I limit my social relationships to people who eat like I do.
I did protest the war in Iraq (fat lot of good it did), and I did base my voting decisions, in a large part, on that and similar issues. I give a fair chunk of my income to charities which try to alleviate human suffering and provide human justice, though I could give more.
I guess that's the perspective I'd like to see from the NARN types. They say they should be commended for speaking their minds--assuming that those of us who don't protest at Lark don't believe in protesting. But by working for change on this issue--an issue I may agree with them on in conclusion, if not in consequence--rather than for another, NARN is saying that they consider goose lives to be more important than human lives.
They're not holding a combined anti-war/anti-foie-gras protest. They're not raising money to save Iraqi orphans while in front of Lark. They're spending their time--time they could be working towards a different cause--worrying about fucking birds.
If any NARN supporters are reading this, there's one question I've always wanted to ask. If, in some weird, totally hypothetical world, you had a finite amount of resources to improve someone's welfare. Let's say you were in charge of a large charitable foundation, and you could spend the resources of that foundation treating third world malaria or lobbying to save the whales.
Which would you choose? The whales, or the little colored babies?
194
@193
There's a LOT wrong in the world, and I don't think we need to rank everything and then all turn our attention the top of the list. I think it's fine for people to focus on the areas where they feel passionate. And this is why I stopped, personally, waving signs and supporting NARN. I'm not going to go join the protesters at Lark; I do think it's a waste of energy. With almost any issue, there's a question of what makes for effective change or advocacy, and I don't think that's the way to go in this case. Even though I agree that foie gras production is indefensibly cruel.
But see, this isn't an issue where people have to take energy much away from other things. It's just making different shopping choices (or, you know, pointing to something different on the menu). And it doesn't have to be this drama-fest, religious thing. I eat vegan food >98% of the time. The other <2% are times when I'm in an environment where that's particularly problematic, or I want to taste something that somebody else is eating, or I don't want to offend somebody, or whatever. Rather than stress out about it (energy!), I try to keep some perspective. And people can make those percentages be whatever they want -- wherever they are comfortable, wherever they don't feel like it's some huge imposition on their lives -- and not take any time away from protesting the war or ending malaria.
In this case, it's not either/or.
There's a LOT wrong in the world, and I don't think we need to rank everything and then all turn our attention the top of the list. I think it's fine for people to focus on the areas where they feel passionate. And this is why I stopped, personally, waving signs and supporting NARN. I'm not going to go join the protesters at Lark; I do think it's a waste of energy. With almost any issue, there's a question of what makes for effective change or advocacy, and I don't think that's the way to go in this case. Even though I agree that foie gras production is indefensibly cruel.
But see, this isn't an issue where people have to take energy much away from other things. It's just making different shopping choices (or, you know, pointing to something different on the menu). And it doesn't have to be this drama-fest, religious thing. I eat vegan food >98% of the time. The other <2% are times when I'm in an environment where that's particularly problematic, or I want to taste something that somebody else is eating, or I don't want to offend somebody, or whatever. Rather than stress out about it (energy!), I try to keep some perspective. And people can make those percentages be whatever they want -- wherever they are comfortable, wherever they don't feel like it's some huge imposition on their lives -- and not take any time away from protesting the war or ending malaria.
In this case, it's not either/or.
195
Oh, and to answer your question, if there could be only one type of charity in the world, and I could only help people or an endangered species, sure, save the babies.
But if I get to run 1 out of a collection of 100 charities, and 99 of them are already committed to babies, I'm happy to use my 1 to try to do something for the whales.
Another take:
Often, the human problems that we are trying to solve are very, very complicated. Solutions, if they exist, may be incredibly difficult or expensive or politically tricky.
Often, the animal cruelty environmental problems actually AREN'T that complicated. It's just a matter of showing people the consequences of their actions and expecting them to choose different actions (different actions which don't actually ask much more of a person, usually, beyond forcing a change in habit).
So, my question is:
You've got two problems to solve. One will require 100,000,000 resource units, take 1,000,000,000 time units, and provide 1,000,000,000,000 benefit units. The other problem will take 5 resource units, 100 time units, and provide 100,000 benefit units.
Can you see how it might make sense to some of us to go ahead and grab that easy 100,000 benefit units?
(Yeah, I'm not only a vegan, but a hopeless dork. )
But if I get to run 1 out of a collection of 100 charities, and 99 of them are already committed to babies, I'm happy to use my 1 to try to do something for the whales.
Another take:
Often, the human problems that we are trying to solve are very, very complicated. Solutions, if they exist, may be incredibly difficult or expensive or politically tricky.
Often, the animal cruelty environmental problems actually AREN'T that complicated. It's just a matter of showing people the consequences of their actions and expecting them to choose different actions (different actions which don't actually ask much more of a person, usually, beyond forcing a change in habit).
So, my question is:
You've got two problems to solve. One will require 100,000,000 resource units, take 1,000,000,000 time units, and provide 1,000,000,000,000 benefit units. The other problem will take 5 resource units, 100 time units, and provide 100,000 benefit units.
Can you see how it might make sense to some of us to go ahead and grab that easy 100,000 benefit units?
(Yeah, I'm not only a vegan, but a hopeless dork. )
196
Oh, and while I'm still talking:
Adult Vegan @148: kiss my ass. There's more than one way to communicate about this issue. I got a degree in philosophy, focused in ethics, inspired substantially by Peter Singer. I've written about a dozen papers about this issue, and had more cool-headed, rational discussions than I can begin to recall. I think I'm a MODEL "adult vegan". I'm still allowed to get pissed off over a video of animals being tortured.
Adult Vegan @148: kiss my ass. There's more than one way to communicate about this issue. I got a degree in philosophy, focused in ethics, inspired substantially by Peter Singer. I've written about a dozen papers about this issue, and had more cool-headed, rational discussions than I can begin to recall. I think I'm a MODEL "adult vegan". I'm still allowed to get pissed off over a video of animals being tortured.
197
@voilet_dagrinder:
So now you're suggesting we try to maximize utility in our charitable endeavors. I totally, wholeheartedly agree.
I don't think protesting Lark maximizes utility, however. Even if it may be less costly to solve the animal cruelty problem (and I'm not at all convinced that's the case, since at least everyone agrees in principle that human suffering is a problem), the animal cruelty problem is also hugely less significant than the human suffering one, as I think you agree.
As for your comment that "I don't think we need to rank everything and then all turn our attention the top of the list," well, I disagree. We don't need to devote all of our time to charitable endeavors, and selfishness is, within reason, fine, so if protesting Lark is a selfish hobby rather than a purely moral action, then fine--I support that.
But I resent the argument put forth by some here that protesting Lark is some sort of ideal moral activity. Go protest Lark while I'm at the movies. That's fine. But protesting Lark doesn't absolve you of your duty to your fellow man, either, and people who spend their Fridays trying to solve that problem get a lot more respect from me than people who spend them watching TV or trying to save the geese.
In the realm of pure charity, though, remember the concept of opportunity cost. If 99 other charities are working to solve human suffering but haven't succeeded yet--and they sure haven't--spending your charitable time trying to save the geese or the whales is just misguided.
So now you're suggesting we try to maximize utility in our charitable endeavors. I totally, wholeheartedly agree.
I don't think protesting Lark maximizes utility, however. Even if it may be less costly to solve the animal cruelty problem (and I'm not at all convinced that's the case, since at least everyone agrees in principle that human suffering is a problem), the animal cruelty problem is also hugely less significant than the human suffering one, as I think you agree.
As for your comment that "I don't think we need to rank everything and then all turn our attention the top of the list," well, I disagree. We don't need to devote all of our time to charitable endeavors, and selfishness is, within reason, fine, so if protesting Lark is a selfish hobby rather than a purely moral action, then fine--I support that.
But I resent the argument put forth by some here that protesting Lark is some sort of ideal moral activity. Go protest Lark while I'm at the movies. That's fine. But protesting Lark doesn't absolve you of your duty to your fellow man, either, and people who spend their Fridays trying to solve that problem get a lot more respect from me than people who spend them watching TV or trying to save the geese.
In the realm of pure charity, though, remember the concept of opportunity cost. If 99 other charities are working to solve human suffering but haven't succeeded yet--and they sure haven't--spending your charitable time trying to save the geese or the whales is just misguided.
198
@197
Well, we basically agree about the Lark protests.
I don't think that human suffering is the only suffering that matters, or that animal welfare and environmental issues are divorced from issues of human well-being. So I disagree about those causes being misguided uses of time.
The great thing about the foie gras issue is that nobody has to DO anything. It's a matter of not doing something. It's really simple, and doesn't take anything away from anybody. No sign waving required. Just order something else. ;)
Well, we basically agree about the Lark protests.
I don't think that human suffering is the only suffering that matters, or that animal welfare and environmental issues are divorced from issues of human well-being. So I disagree about those causes being misguided uses of time.
The great thing about the foie gras issue is that nobody has to DO anything. It's a matter of not doing something. It's really simple, and doesn't take anything away from anybody. No sign waving required. Just order something else. ;)
199
@198:
I didn't say it was the only suffering that matters. I said it was more important than goose or whale suffering.
If I have a dollar to spend on alleviating suffering, I should spend it on alleviating human suffering.
I didn't say it was the only suffering that matters. I said it was more important than goose or whale suffering.
If I have a dollar to spend on alleviating suffering, I should spend it on alleviating human suffering.
200
Violet and Dan at last have a decent conversation. Thanks for popping this silly bubble. Still, Dan, your $12 spent at the movies was more useful than the 12 - $1's you could've spent on healing human suffering? I say, "yes." Still, I don't understand your time spent opposing some guy's decision to spend some time (just a little bit) educating some people (and a whole lot of people in the comments section) about cruel and unnecessary farming practices. Will you spend the same time criticizing those watching reality television? When they could've spent it better?
Many of my brain cells are busy with things that I'm not so passionate about. Still, I'm grateful that they are.
Many of my brain cells are busy with things that I'm not so passionate about. Still, I'm grateful that they are.
201
189…
"@ 188 - I have been to 3 protests at Lark, nobody has "accosted" a customer, unless you consider being offered a pamphlet being accosted..."
ac·cost (-kôst, -kst)
tr.v. ac·cost·ed, ac·cost·ing, ac·costs
1. To approach and speak to boldly or aggressively, as with a demand or request.
2. To solicit for sex.
[French accoster, from Old French, from Medieval Latin accostre, to adjoin : Latin ad-, ad- + Latin costa, side; see kost- in Indo-European roots.]
"...Nobody has blocked the entrance and protestors have kept the sidewalks clear."
Again you are mistaken. Twice I had to ask protesters to move so that we could enter Lark (this is blocking the entrance). The protesters had arrayed themselves in a semi circle blocking the door (this is blocking the entrance again AND not keeping the sidewalks clear).
The amazing thing to me is that for every convert you create you do just enough to irritate two others. Inside the restaurant you create an atmosphere of solidarity amongst the diners. So much so that on the evening we were “accosted” (please see above definition) the four tables surrounding ours, a total of eight diners, All ordered foie gras! Six of the eight diners had never had foie gras before. Five of those six absolutely loved it. When I asked why they chose that night to order foie gras for the first time they said it was because of you and your fellow protesters! They said that you were so annoying that they became irritated and decided, “Screw them, they can’t tell me what to eat!” At the rate you are going sales of foie gras, not only at Lark but throughout King County, will skyrocket.
It’s time to rethink your approach. It’s not working in Seattle.
More...
"@ 188 - I have been to 3 protests at Lark, nobody has "accosted" a customer, unless you consider being offered a pamphlet being accosted..."
ac·cost (-kôst, -kst)
tr.v. ac·cost·ed, ac·cost·ing, ac·costs
1. To approach and speak to boldly or aggressively, as with a demand or request.
2. To solicit for sex.
[French accoster, from Old French, from Medieval Latin accostre, to adjoin : Latin ad-, ad- + Latin costa, side; see kost- in Indo-European roots.]
"...Nobody has blocked the entrance and protestors have kept the sidewalks clear."
Again you are mistaken. Twice I had to ask protesters to move so that we could enter Lark (this is blocking the entrance). The protesters had arrayed themselves in a semi circle blocking the door (this is blocking the entrance again AND not keeping the sidewalks clear).
The amazing thing to me is that for every convert you create you do just enough to irritate two others. Inside the restaurant you create an atmosphere of solidarity amongst the diners. So much so that on the evening we were “accosted” (please see above definition) the four tables surrounding ours, a total of eight diners, All ordered foie gras! Six of the eight diners had never had foie gras before. Five of those six absolutely loved it. When I asked why they chose that night to order foie gras for the first time they said it was because of you and your fellow protesters! They said that you were so annoying that they became irritated and decided, “Screw them, they can’t tell me what to eat!” At the rate you are going sales of foie gras, not only at Lark but throughout King County, will skyrocket.
It’s time to rethink your approach. It’s not working in Seattle.
202
@201
no! dont appeal to these fuckwads with logic. they need to keep doing exactly what they are doing. that way, their inevitable humiliating failure will be all that more sweet. i can not WAIT to read the pathetic justifications for the "suspension" of the protest, after the lines around the block for fois gras completely envelop the protesters. they are making this joint FAMOUS and making this food very politically exciting and hip to order.
so yes. please, narn ("narn". really? you couldnt think of anything better? you stopped when you got to "N.A.R.N."???) get more indignant. try to shout louder. block peoples ways. at this rate, maybe someone will get hurt! (fingers crossed).
i wish i could fast forward to the end of this hilarity.
no! dont appeal to these fuckwads with logic. they need to keep doing exactly what they are doing. that way, their inevitable humiliating failure will be all that more sweet. i can not WAIT to read the pathetic justifications for the "suspension" of the protest, after the lines around the block for fois gras completely envelop the protesters. they are making this joint FAMOUS and making this food very politically exciting and hip to order.
so yes. please, narn ("narn". really? you couldnt think of anything better? you stopped when you got to "N.A.R.N."???) get more indignant. try to shout louder. block peoples ways. at this rate, maybe someone will get hurt! (fingers crossed).
i wish i could fast forward to the end of this hilarity.
203
#201 -You are a LIAR. Again, nice try. I'm sorry that you are so hysterical. Try being more honest, that might help.
#202 - Don't have a hilarity coronary. Hilarious.
#202 - Don't have a hilarity coronary. Hilarious.
204
203...
The beauty of my post is that it is actually true. 100% honest. I recounted the events exactly how they happened. My wife can collaborate our experience outside and inside the restaurant. As you can no doubt see from John's response, sales of foie gras are up on Fridays. No dishonesty what so ever. As far as hysterical goes... Not at all. I am simply offering my observations. I was attempting to show you that your protest methods are in fact failing. You offer nothing in reply. No alternatives, no reasons as to why you have chosen to protest in the way that you have. By your snide response you immediately discredit yourself and unfortunately the organization you claim to represent. You alienate the people you are trying to get through to. Prior to your response i would have listened to you opinion, I would have offered you the respect you deserve for feeling passionately about animals. Now you strike me as a person who is blind to compromise and unable to acknowledge another persons opinion. It's a shame because I am certain that there are members of NARN that would truly love to affect change. The fact that their desire for change gets muddled up in your immaturity is disgraceful.
The beauty of my post is that it is actually true. 100% honest. I recounted the events exactly how they happened. My wife can collaborate our experience outside and inside the restaurant. As you can no doubt see from John's response, sales of foie gras are up on Fridays. No dishonesty what so ever. As far as hysterical goes... Not at all. I am simply offering my observations. I was attempting to show you that your protest methods are in fact failing. You offer nothing in reply. No alternatives, no reasons as to why you have chosen to protest in the way that you have. By your snide response you immediately discredit yourself and unfortunately the organization you claim to represent. You alienate the people you are trying to get through to. Prior to your response i would have listened to you opinion, I would have offered you the respect you deserve for feeling passionately about animals. Now you strike me as a person who is blind to compromise and unable to acknowledge another persons opinion. It's a shame because I am certain that there are members of NARN that would truly love to affect change. The fact that their desire for change gets muddled up in your immaturity is disgraceful.
205
Goodness! So, my husband had to tell me that #203 called him a LIAR (in caps, no less!)
Well, of course, he is not lying. The group outside Lark was aggressive and obnoxious as we attempted to have a rare and relished dinner out. They lined the sidewalk in front of the restaurant, and while not strictly blocking the entrance, certainly made is awkward for us to open the door and get around them. They yelled and chanted, screaming extra-loud whenever the door was opened, and holding placards directly up the dining room windows. Again, the definition of "accost" is "to approach and speak to, often in a challenging or aggressive way". So, I must insist that we were, in fact, accosted by members of NARN outside Lark.
I have been to many war protests; I was at the WTO march; I used to work for both GreenPeace and WashPIRG. I'm telling you this in the hopes you will believe me when I say their strategy is not to educate, but to disrupt.
As a side note, both my husband and I were vegetarians for many years. This was in the 80's and early 90's. Then my aunt and uncle who have an organic farm and orchard in Tonasket starting raising pigs and cows for meat. They grew the feed grain, and fed the waste from the orchards. In return, the animals provided fertilizer for the organic fruits, and after several happy years wandering the farm, bacon and steak.
I am fully aware of the atrocities of factory-farmed meat, both in animal suffering and ecological cost, and I NEVER eat it. We are so fortunate that we can easily get organic free-range meat now, that was simply unavailable when I was a vegetarian. I also understand how important livestock is to an ecologically-whole family farm. I love the idea of supporting small, conscientious farmers who are genuine stewards of the land and the animals in their care. Plus, in the end, the meat that is produced by these small farmers tastes AMAZING.
I will continue to patronize Lark as often as possible, because I know they (like several other wonderful restaurants in town) make a special effort to support local, organic food producers. Every dinner I've had has been wonderful, and if it is occasionally spiked with fois gras, well, then, it's even more delicious.
More...
Well, of course, he is not lying. The group outside Lark was aggressive and obnoxious as we attempted to have a rare and relished dinner out. They lined the sidewalk in front of the restaurant, and while not strictly blocking the entrance, certainly made is awkward for us to open the door and get around them. They yelled and chanted, screaming extra-loud whenever the door was opened, and holding placards directly up the dining room windows. Again, the definition of "accost" is "to approach and speak to, often in a challenging or aggressive way". So, I must insist that we were, in fact, accosted by members of NARN outside Lark.
I have been to many war protests; I was at the WTO march; I used to work for both GreenPeace and WashPIRG. I'm telling you this in the hopes you will believe me when I say their strategy is not to educate, but to disrupt.
As a side note, both my husband and I were vegetarians for many years. This was in the 80's and early 90's. Then my aunt and uncle who have an organic farm and orchard in Tonasket starting raising pigs and cows for meat. They grew the feed grain, and fed the waste from the orchards. In return, the animals provided fertilizer for the organic fruits, and after several happy years wandering the farm, bacon and steak.
I am fully aware of the atrocities of factory-farmed meat, both in animal suffering and ecological cost, and I NEVER eat it. We are so fortunate that we can easily get organic free-range meat now, that was simply unavailable when I was a vegetarian. I also understand how important livestock is to an ecologically-whole family farm. I love the idea of supporting small, conscientious farmers who are genuine stewards of the land and the animals in their care. Plus, in the end, the meat that is produced by these small farmers tastes AMAZING.
I will continue to patronize Lark as often as possible, because I know they (like several other wonderful restaurants in town) make a special effort to support local, organic food producers. Every dinner I've had has been wonderful, and if it is occasionally spiked with fois gras, well, then, it's even more delicious.
206
"If I offer a child the choice between a pear and a piece of meat, he'll quickly choose the pear. That's his atavistic instinct speaking."
- Adolf Hitler. December 28, 1941. Section 81, HITLER'S TABLE TALK
"The only thing of which I shall be incapable is to share the sheiks' mutton with them. I'm a vegetarian, and they must spare me from their meat." - Adolf Hitler. January 12, 1942. Section 105, HITLER'S TABLE TALK
38
"One may regret living at a period when it's impossible to form an idea of the shape the world of the future will assume. But there's one thing I can predict to eaters of meat: the world of the future will be vegetarian."
Adolf Hitler
1941
"At the time when I ate meat, I used to sweat a lot. I used to drink four pots of beer and six bottles of water during a meeting. … When I became a vegetarian, a mouthful of water was enough." - Adolf Hitler. January 22, 1942. Section 117, HITLER'S TABLE TALK
"When you offer a child the choice of a piece of meat, an apple, or a cake, it's never the meat that he chooses. There's an ancestral instinct there." - Adolf Hitler. January 22, 1942. Section 117, HITLER'S TABLE TALK
"One has only to keep one's eyes open to notice what an extraordinary antipathy young children have to meat." - Adolf Hitler. April 25, 1942. Section 198, HITLER'S TABLE TALK
"When I later gave up eating meat, I immediately began to perspire much less, and within a fortnight to perspire hardly at all. My thirst, too, decreased considerably, and an occasional sip of water was all I required. Vegetarian diet, therefore, has some obvious advantages." - Adolf Hitler. July 8, 1942. Section 256, HITLER'S TABLE TALK
"I am no admirer of the poacher, particularly as I am a vegetarian." - Adolf Hitler. August 20, 1942. Section 293, HITLER'S TABLE TALK
"An extended chapter of our talk was devoted by the Führer to the vegetarian question. He believes more than ever that meat-eating is harmful to humanity. Of course he knows that during the war we cannot completely upset our food system. After the war, however, he intends to tackle this problem also. Maybe he is right. Certainly the arguments that he adduces in favor of his standpoint are very compelling."
Joseph Goebbels
1942
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"The only thing of which I shall be incapable is to share the sheiks' mutton with them. I'm a vegetarian, and they must spare me from their meat." - Adolf Hitler. January 12, 1942. Section 105, HITLER'S TABLE TALK
38
"One may regret living at a period when it's impossible to form an idea of the shape the world of the future will assume. But there's one thing I can predict to eaters of meat: the world of the future will be vegetarian."
Adolf Hitler
1941
"At the time when I ate meat, I used to sweat a lot. I used to drink four pots of beer and six bottles of water during a meeting. … When I became a vegetarian, a mouthful of water was enough." - Adolf Hitler. January 22, 1942. Section 117, HITLER'S TABLE TALK
"When you offer a child the choice of a piece of meat, an apple, or a cake, it's never the meat that he chooses. There's an ancestral instinct there." - Adolf Hitler. January 22, 1942. Section 117, HITLER'S TABLE TALK
"One has only to keep one's eyes open to notice what an extraordinary antipathy young children have to meat." - Adolf Hitler. April 25, 1942. Section 198, HITLER'S TABLE TALK
"When I later gave up eating meat, I immediately began to perspire much less, and within a fortnight to perspire hardly at all. My thirst, too, decreased considerably, and an occasional sip of water was all I required. Vegetarian diet, therefore, has some obvious advantages." - Adolf Hitler. July 8, 1942. Section 256, HITLER'S TABLE TALK
"I am no admirer of the poacher, particularly as I am a vegetarian." - Adolf Hitler. August 20, 1942. Section 293, HITLER'S TABLE TALK
"An extended chapter of our talk was devoted by the Führer to the vegetarian question. He believes more than ever that meat-eating is harmful to humanity. Of course he knows that during the war we cannot completely upset our food system. After the war, however, he intends to tackle this problem also. Maybe he is right. Certainly the arguments that he adduces in favor of his standpoint are very compelling."
Joseph Goebbels
1942
207
Those radical freak wackos The Humane Society of the United States, maybe you've heard of them, have free postcards you can order from them that urge restaurants to stop selling foie gras.
You can order them here: http://www.hsus.org/forms/foie_gras_card…
204 and 205, I'm sorry you feel "accosted" by protestors..I think you are extremely exaggerating the situation or again in other words, lying.
Again, I have been at four of the protests in the last month and yes, chanting got louder as the door opened, but I have absolutely not seen anyone block the entrance. In fact the protesters have gone out of their way to keep the sidewalks clear and the entrance clear. The first protest I went to signs were held up in the windows briefly, but since then we've stayed mostly back from the windows. We had used toy horns, but were asked politely to not use them and we complied. I stand by my original statement that you are lying...I have NEVER seen any of the protesters attempting to block anyone from entering or existing Lark in the month's worth of time I've spent there. You are just trying to paint a distorted picture of the protesters and then adding these oh so innocent "polite" follow ups.
You can order them here: http://www.hsus.org/forms/foie_gras_card…
204 and 205, I'm sorry you feel "accosted" by protestors..I think you are extremely exaggerating the situation or again in other words, lying.
Again, I have been at four of the protests in the last month and yes, chanting got louder as the door opened, but I have absolutely not seen anyone block the entrance. In fact the protesters have gone out of their way to keep the sidewalks clear and the entrance clear. The first protest I went to signs were held up in the windows briefly, but since then we've stayed mostly back from the windows. We had used toy horns, but were asked politely to not use them and we complied. I stand by my original statement that you are lying...I have NEVER seen any of the protesters attempting to block anyone from entering or existing Lark in the month's worth of time I've spent there. You are just trying to paint a distorted picture of the protesters and then adding these oh so innocent "polite" follow ups.
208
It is a pity both sides of this debate have to resort to illogic, insults, lies and misinformation.
I eat meat. I LOVE meat. It is part of my cultural heritage, it also part of my natural state. I am a human, and humans are omnivores. This is a scientific fact, we evolved greater brain size and complexity and were able to spread accross the face of the earth because we could eat both vegetable matter and other creatures.
We have a gut that while similar in size and shape to the largely herbivore apes (they do eat bugs incidentally, which is most likely how our own meat eating started), is far more similar in function and content to a lions. It is a omniverous gut. You might want to read this article, by a vegan, and investigate the scientific arguments yourself:
http://www.beyondveg.com/nicholson-w/hb/…
I fully expect that these claims will be denied and insults cast against me, but the science is there, you can choose to accept it or not. Truth will prevail, what?
If you choose to take up the philosophy of Vegenism, all power to you. But the moment you begin to insist that your philosophy is superior to my philosophy, you are becoming effectively a fundamentalist. No different from the religiously intolerant types who insist their religion is the onl true way. I will not tell you what to eat, you do not tell me what to eat. That is how it works.
Plants are alive too, you know? Did you know that wheat lets out a high pitches scream when harvested? It is rally quite chilling when it is recorded and adapted so we can hear it. Is it alright to kill plant life just because it is different? Because it lacks a central nervous system, its fine to kill it? You see we can take this pro-life anti cruelty argument to ridiculous extremes if we want.
Humans are omnivores and will eat meat as long as our species exists.
As to fois gras, some fois gras production is cruel, some are not. Do you know it is possible to get fois gras from naturally fattened livers, from geese and ducks that are not force fed? Additionally, the gavage does not hurt the bird unless excessive force is used. Ducks and geese have hard, cartilegenous throats and routinely swallow stones and whole fish, a smooth, lubricated tube poses little discomfort for them.
Please do not repeat the abused argument that we could produce more food if animal farming ceased, it is based an enormous erroneous assumption. That assumption is that all land on which animals are grazed can be used as farmland. It is not so. I come from a farming family in Australia, and believe me we would LOVE nothing more than to grow wheat. We can not, the soil is not fertile enough. Even in the more fertile areas of my state (when it is not burning, that is) require phosphorous fertiliser to grow vegetables, it simply is not optional. If we cattle farmers in Australia did not produce meat, we would not produce anything. That land which is suitable for growing grain is employed for such. Even with good rainfall sometimes we have to buy in extra feed as what grass there is is not enough to feed the animals.
So please, if you want to argue about this, argue RATIONALLY. This applies to both sides.
More...
I eat meat. I LOVE meat. It is part of my cultural heritage, it also part of my natural state. I am a human, and humans are omnivores. This is a scientific fact, we evolved greater brain size and complexity and were able to spread accross the face of the earth because we could eat both vegetable matter and other creatures.
We have a gut that while similar in size and shape to the largely herbivore apes (they do eat bugs incidentally, which is most likely how our own meat eating started), is far more similar in function and content to a lions. It is a omniverous gut. You might want to read this article, by a vegan, and investigate the scientific arguments yourself:
http://www.beyondveg.com/nicholson-w/hb/…
I fully expect that these claims will be denied and insults cast against me, but the science is there, you can choose to accept it or not. Truth will prevail, what?
If you choose to take up the philosophy of Vegenism, all power to you. But the moment you begin to insist that your philosophy is superior to my philosophy, you are becoming effectively a fundamentalist. No different from the religiously intolerant types who insist their religion is the onl true way. I will not tell you what to eat, you do not tell me what to eat. That is how it works.
Plants are alive too, you know? Did you know that wheat lets out a high pitches scream when harvested? It is rally quite chilling when it is recorded and adapted so we can hear it. Is it alright to kill plant life just because it is different? Because it lacks a central nervous system, its fine to kill it? You see we can take this pro-life anti cruelty argument to ridiculous extremes if we want.
Humans are omnivores and will eat meat as long as our species exists.
As to fois gras, some fois gras production is cruel, some are not. Do you know it is possible to get fois gras from naturally fattened livers, from geese and ducks that are not force fed? Additionally, the gavage does not hurt the bird unless excessive force is used. Ducks and geese have hard, cartilegenous throats and routinely swallow stones and whole fish, a smooth, lubricated tube poses little discomfort for them.
Please do not repeat the abused argument that we could produce more food if animal farming ceased, it is based an enormous erroneous assumption. That assumption is that all land on which animals are grazed can be used as farmland. It is not so. I come from a farming family in Australia, and believe me we would LOVE nothing more than to grow wheat. We can not, the soil is not fertile enough. Even in the more fertile areas of my state (when it is not burning, that is) require phosphorous fertiliser to grow vegetables, it simply is not optional. If we cattle farmers in Australia did not produce meat, we would not produce anything. That land which is suitable for growing grain is employed for such. Even with good rainfall sometimes we have to buy in extra feed as what grass there is is not enough to feed the animals.
So please, if you want to argue about this, argue RATIONALLY. This applies to both sides.
209
As an side, you will never succeed in banning fois gras worldwide, it is constitutionally enshrined in France and not even the EU will be able to override it.
210
#207
Please take note, I quite clearly said the protesters were NOT strictly blocking the entrance, but that they made entrance awkward. Our experience was exactly as described. Neither my husband nor I would waste our energy or time lying about such a silly thing. What a simplistic and dogmatic perspective you have if your best counter-argument to an anecdotal statement is "you're lying". Do not bother responding to me, P, as I am finished attempting civilized discourse, and will not be reading this blog again.
Please take note, I quite clearly said the protesters were NOT strictly blocking the entrance, but that they made entrance awkward. Our experience was exactly as described. Neither my husband nor I would waste our energy or time lying about such a silly thing. What a simplistic and dogmatic perspective you have if your best counter-argument to an anecdotal statement is "you're lying". Do not bother responding to me, P, as I am finished attempting civilized discourse, and will not be reading this blog again.
211
Don't forget! This week's protest will be on Saturday - Valentine's day - outside of Lark!
http://www.meetup.com/Seattle-Animal-Rig…
http://www.meetup.com/Seattle-Animal-Rig…
214
It's such a joke that they're protesting Lark. The owners of Lark are some of the best people I know, and they go out of their way to work with local farms that treat their animals humanely. I am completely for animal rights and go out of my way to buy free range meat whenever I possibly can.
But this protest makes me really angry. Of all the animal causes to take up, you're picking Lark? A small restaurant with foie gras trumps all the other issues you could take up? What about all the other restaurants that don't even care where they get their meat?
My wife and I will be coming to Lark on a Friday night in the very near future. We normally only go on Sunday, and we always order the foie terrine. This time we're going to skip the babysitter and bring our 16 month old daughter so she can try foie for the first time.
Hopefully people walk away from this realizing that Lark has some of the best foie gras in the city. If you can try the terrine with vanilla kumquat preservers, it is divine.
But this protest makes me really angry. Of all the animal causes to take up, you're picking Lark? A small restaurant with foie gras trumps all the other issues you could take up? What about all the other restaurants that don't even care where they get their meat?
My wife and I will be coming to Lark on a Friday night in the very near future. We normally only go on Sunday, and we always order the foie terrine. This time we're going to skip the babysitter and bring our 16 month old daughter so she can try foie for the first time.
Hopefully people walk away from this realizing that Lark has some of the best foie gras in the city. If you can try the terrine with vanilla kumquat preservers, it is divine.
215
Lark's a nice resturant. And it seems ridiculous to target one independently owned resturant when your goal is to shut down the entire industry. Personally I belive that people should be allowed to eat what ever they want but dispite my difference of opinion I also belive that people have the right to protest. I am commenting on this artical several months after it's origanal publication because I saw the protesters this Saterday as I went to get a cupcake.
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