Thursday, February 5, 2009
Religion "When You're a Working Class Mum, Jesus Is Like an Unpaid Babysitter"
Posted by Paul Constant on Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 5:43 PM
Pretty great riff by Ricky Gervais:
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1
"if there was a god, why would he make me an athiest?"
cue rightous anger: "how dare you use logic to question religion!!"
...but seriously I am going to have to steal that quote
cue rightous anger: "how dare you use logic to question religion!!"
...but seriously I am going to have to steal that quote
2
@1: So the only god that could or would exist would cover its bases by making all sentients believe in it? That's some air-tight disproof of God's existence? I doubt myself, most days, but that hardly pushed me over the edge.
I enjoyed the clip, but that wasn't ground-breaking. The first minute or so was better than the last 30 seconds.
I enjoyed the clip, but that wasn't ground-breaking. The first minute or so was better than the last 30 seconds.
4
@1/2
My own, honest version of that question is, "if he expected me to believe, why did he make me rational?" Did a god who is cool enough to have invented elephants and flowers, stars and oceans, actually create me to be incapable of seeing the truth by my very nature?
I've never believed a day in my life. I vividly remember sitting in Sunday school, thinking how absurd it all was. Incredulous that grownups believed this insane stuff. If I had been hit by a truck as an 8-year-old, was I going to hell?
If so, what a bastard god is. I'll burn to spite him. :)
My own, honest version of that question is, "if he expected me to believe, why did he make me rational?" Did a god who is cool enough to have invented elephants and flowers, stars and oceans, actually create me to be incapable of seeing the truth by my very nature?
I've never believed a day in my life. I vividly remember sitting in Sunday school, thinking how absurd it all was. Incredulous that grownups believed this insane stuff. If I had been hit by a truck as an 8-year-old, was I going to hell?
If so, what a bastard god is. I'll burn to spite him. :)
5
God is an idea...a very human idea.
If we forget, god dies.
But, don't worry, kids. God will be resurrected again and again for as long as humanity endures.
Some human will create god again because god is a very useful tool to calm the fear that comes from the realization that we are ignorant, weak and vulnerable...the fear that we do not endure.
Say your prayers...sweet dreams...oh, the mental balm that coats and relieves...Mmm, good...
If we forget, god dies.
But, don't worry, kids. God will be resurrected again and again for as long as humanity endures.
Some human will create god again because god is a very useful tool to calm the fear that comes from the realization that we are ignorant, weak and vulnerable...the fear that we do not endure.
Say your prayers...sweet dreams...oh, the mental balm that coats and relieves...Mmm, good...
7
I agree that the first bit was better than the last... he basically just said another version of what I've always thought. That "religion" (not "faith", which is a different matter) can be a great thing, in that it teaches people how to be good. Because for some people, "there is no morality without religion". People who are incapable of deducing basic tenets of morality on their own apparently need a religion to tell them how to be good.
8
I hope anyone tempted to publicly air their views on religion can find in Gervais a model of how to not be a huge dick about it. God squad or no, "self-righteous blowhard" is the easy default most often on display, and Gervais is a nice change.
10
I like the plain and simple "You can't believe in something you don't". I've had religious folk assume that I feel my becoming an atheist as a loss, or something I struggle with. They don't ever understand that just as they believe in a god, I simply do not. I don't feel it.
11
@7, Julie: I kind of love you for this: "People who are incapable of deducing basic tenets of morality on their own apparently need a religion to tell them how to be good."
12
Yes yes, all the cool people are atheists. I wish I was an atheist. Then I'd be cool too. Because clearly religion is a crutch for stupid people(5, 7, 11), insane, absurd and irrational (4), and, of course, illogical (1).
I wonder when it will occur to the atheist community as a whole that telling people they're stupid for choosing to believe in a premise that cannot, on its own, be proven or disproved, and which does not, on its own, imply a moral, political, or economic framework -- I wonder when it will occur to atheists that calling people stupid just for that part of their belief system is and always will be totally condescending and counterproductive.
Not that Gervais did that. But I rather think that most people on the slog miss his point (8).
I wonder when it will occur to the atheist community as a whole that telling people they're stupid for choosing to believe in a premise that cannot, on its own, be proven or disproved, and which does not, on its own, imply a moral, political, or economic framework -- I wonder when it will occur to atheists that calling people stupid just for that part of their belief system is and always will be totally condescending and counterproductive.
Not that Gervais did that. But I rather think that most people on the slog miss his point (8).
13
hey if you feel stupid about believing there's someone watching you go to the bathroom you're not doing it right.
15
If you look in the Bible, God is depicted walking through The Garden of Eden, dining with Abraham, and wrestling with Jacob. Why would God suddenly stop interacting with folks as told in the Bible?
While I can't rule out the possibility of the existence of God, any more than I can rule out the existence of unicorns, also mentioned throughout the Bible, or that, as written in the Koran, Muhammad's horse leaped, and carried him to Heaven. I can't disprove that leprechauns, or centaurs walk the Earth, but that doesn't mean I have to believe that they exist. It doesn't seem that outrageous to require a bit of proof.
I have read the Bible, and I can say without a doubt that is it the mythology of an ancient people, trying to explain a world for which they had very little understanding. They basically made up stuff to fill in the blanks. It's a flawed work that contains countless errors in continuity, ridiculous notions, and very bad moral guidelines. People just cherry pick passages and phrases, while ignoring the more abhorrent content.
While I can't rule out the possibility of the existence of God, any more than I can rule out the existence of unicorns, also mentioned throughout the Bible, or that, as written in the Koran, Muhammad's horse leaped, and carried him to Heaven. I can't disprove that leprechauns, or centaurs walk the Earth, but that doesn't mean I have to believe that they exist. It doesn't seem that outrageous to require a bit of proof.
I have read the Bible, and I can say without a doubt that is it the mythology of an ancient people, trying to explain a world for which they had very little understanding. They basically made up stuff to fill in the blanks. It's a flawed work that contains countless errors in continuity, ridiculous notions, and very bad moral guidelines. People just cherry pick passages and phrases, while ignoring the more abhorrent content.
16
@12
Believing that the Bible is true IS insane, absurd and irrational. Believing in a god at all, despite the complete lack of evidence, IS, in fact, irrational. I can't PROVE that there isn't a god. You can't prove a negative. But I can sure as hell point out that lack of belief in something for which there's no evidence is more rational than belief in said thing.
What does "a moral, political, or economic framework" have to do with anything? I mean, I know religious people like to think that their imaginary friend is crucial for a functioning society, but all of the atheists I know are still capable of helping old ladies cross streets and voting and stuff. (An aside: I was actually helping a blind person who was turned around get where they needed to go the other day, and thought to myself, "gee, I wonder how I manage this without Jesus to tell me what to do.")
"I wonder when it will occur to atheists that calling people stupid just for that part of their belief system is and always will be totally condescending and counterproductive." You're right, if I wanted to win you over, it would be counterproductive. But I don't really care what you believe, if it makes you happy. I'm just tired of being expected to act like it's reasonable. I think religion DESERVES condescension. I think nonbelievers have been pretending to respect it for far too long, and our progress as a society has suffered as a result.
Believing that the Bible is true IS insane, absurd and irrational. Believing in a god at all, despite the complete lack of evidence, IS, in fact, irrational. I can't PROVE that there isn't a god. You can't prove a negative. But I can sure as hell point out that lack of belief in something for which there's no evidence is more rational than belief in said thing.
What does "a moral, political, or economic framework" have to do with anything? I mean, I know religious people like to think that their imaginary friend is crucial for a functioning society, but all of the atheists I know are still capable of helping old ladies cross streets and voting and stuff. (An aside: I was actually helping a blind person who was turned around get where they needed to go the other day, and thought to myself, "gee, I wonder how I manage this without Jesus to tell me what to do.")
"I wonder when it will occur to atheists that calling people stupid just for that part of their belief system is and always will be totally condescending and counterproductive." You're right, if I wanted to win you over, it would be counterproductive. But I don't really care what you believe, if it makes you happy. I'm just tired of being expected to act like it's reasonable. I think religion DESERVES condescension. I think nonbelievers have been pretending to respect it for far too long, and our progress as a society has suffered as a result.
18
i2nd: @8 @12 and @gervais.
but not @16. esp the last paragraph, as it really misses the point.
you write, But I don't really care what you believe... I think religion DESERVES condescension. meaning, basically, you do care what others believe. when you don't care then it doesn't ALLCAPSDESERVE condescension. you actually do care.
and you write, our progress as a society has suffered as a result which means you ought to care if the way you state your belief is counterproductive or not.
beyond that, your condescension is thick with the use of words like imaginary friend, insane, absurd and irrational. those are pretty mean words to describe the people you say should be left alone to be happy with their belief, it certainly doesn't open up dialog with them (something that would be productive), and it doesn't account for the many different manifestations of "faith" that exist -- some of which are rather benign, merely cultural, traditional, or more about the spiritual aspects.
but not @16. esp the last paragraph, as it really misses the point.
you write, But I don't really care what you believe... I think religion DESERVES condescension. meaning, basically, you do care what others believe. when you don't care then it doesn't ALLCAPSDESERVE condescension. you actually do care.
and you write, our progress as a society has suffered as a result which means you ought to care if the way you state your belief is counterproductive or not.
beyond that, your condescension is thick with the use of words like imaginary friend, insane, absurd and irrational. those are pretty mean words to describe the people you say should be left alone to be happy with their belief, it certainly doesn't open up dialog with them (something that would be productive), and it doesn't account for the many different manifestations of "faith" that exist -- some of which are rather benign, merely cultural, traditional, or more about the spiritual aspects.
19
@18
I can imagine how I COULD feel bad that my style of communicating doesn't work for everybody, you apparently included. People have told me that I SHOULD feel bad about it. But, in reality, I just don't. :)
I can imagine how I COULD feel bad that my style of communicating doesn't work for everybody, you apparently included. People have told me that I SHOULD feel bad about it. But, in reality, I just don't. :)
20
"When You're a Working Class Mum, Jesus Is Like an Unpaid Babysitter"
Wrong. The cost is very high--to society, who has to put up with people being scarred by drug abuse, sexual abuse of them by youth pastors, and teen parents (mothers).
Wrong. The cost is very high--to society, who has to put up with people being scarred by drug abuse, sexual abuse of them by youth pastors, and teen parents (mothers).
21
You make yourself an aethiest. As for God being in the Garden of Eden - here is biblical proof it was Jesus.
From King James and New King James Bibles.
I beg to differ with you. Christianity did in fact appear with Jesus in the Garden of Eden and I will prove it just using scripture!
John 1
The Word Became Flesh - this would be Jesus!
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.
3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[a] it.
6There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. 7He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. 8He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.[b]
10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of natural descent,[c] nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.
14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.(again - Jesus)- God never was seen. Only Jesus was ever seen. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[d] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
15John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, "This was he of whom I said,'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' " 16From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another. 17For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,[e][f]who is at the Father's side, has made him known.- Again speaking of Jesus.
Therefore, only Jesus was seen in the Garden of Eden, Also - the fact God is listed as Lord God - again - this indicates Jesus. Genesis 3:8 shows Lord God walking among the trees in the garden - again - in the physical shape!
God the Father has always been in the spirit and never took form of man - only Jesus did. God the father appeared as the burning bush. Moses had to hide his eyes and avoid looking directly at God lest he be destroyed. Only man could look at Jesus without being destroyed.
I encourage you to read your Bible from cover to cover and then you might as you are misinformed my dear friend.
I pray you will become enlightened and search God's word. God is Jesus in the flesh!
More...
From King James and New King James Bibles.
I beg to differ with you. Christianity did in fact appear with Jesus in the Garden of Eden and I will prove it just using scripture!
John 1
The Word Became Flesh - this would be Jesus!
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.
3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[a] it.
6There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. 7He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. 8He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.[b]
10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of natural descent,[c] nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.
14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.(again - Jesus)- God never was seen. Only Jesus was ever seen. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[d] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
15John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, "This was he of whom I said,'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' " 16From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another. 17For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,[e][f]who is at the Father's side, has made him known.- Again speaking of Jesus.
Therefore, only Jesus was seen in the Garden of Eden, Also - the fact God is listed as Lord God - again - this indicates Jesus. Genesis 3:8 shows Lord God walking among the trees in the garden - again - in the physical shape!
God the Father has always been in the spirit and never took form of man - only Jesus did. God the father appeared as the burning bush. Moses had to hide his eyes and avoid looking directly at God lest he be destroyed. Only man could look at Jesus without being destroyed.
I encourage you to read your Bible from cover to cover and then you might as you are misinformed my dear friend.
I pray you will become enlightened and search God's word. God is Jesus in the flesh!
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