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News & ArtsTuesday, February 3, 2009
At Large The University of Arkansas
Posted by Dan Savage on Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 10:00 AM
Some of the questions put to me by students in Fayetteville last night...
A few years ago you did some columns about "pegging." Was pegging just a fad or is it a growing phenomenon?
Do you think monogamy works?
When you have buttsex, do you get poop on your wiener?
From your experience, can/does oral sex help prevent sexual dysfunction in women?
I'm kind of a womanizer, but there is finally a girl I'm interested in for more than just sex. The problem is that a previous flight has invited me to New York, all expenses paid. Should I take this trip? If so, how do I keep the real truth about the trip from this new girl?
My responses: growing phenomenon; no; don't confuse hazards with certainties; my experience is not applicable; a lasting relationship is always built on solid foundation of lies.
4
What a stupid response, Dan. Of course monogamy works. So does polyamory, sluttiness and celibacy. They all work.
People get to choose, Dan.
People get to choose, Dan.
5
@4
Monogamy usually only works in conjunction with heavy application of the "foundation of lies" response.
Monogamy usually only works in conjunction with heavy application of the "foundation of lies" response.
7
And if "sexual dysfunction" means difficulty having orgasms and limited interest in sex, the answer is yes. I think about 70% of female "sexual dysfunction" is a combination of inconsiderate partners and cultural pressure against asking for what one needs to get off (which, for girls, is often oral).
11
I disagree, I think monogamy can work without the "foundation of lies." Of course, I'm basing it off of my relationship (20 years on the 23rd of February).
12
@5--evidence please. I know the concept of monogamy is just so, so passe with a bunch of folks, but to say it doesn't work just isn't true.
I am as sure as I can be that my grandparents and my great grandparents didn't lie about it.
I will readily agree that it isn't for everyone, and that it isn't somehow morally superior to other forms of relationships.
I am as sure as I can be that my grandparents and my great grandparents didn't lie about it.
I will readily agree that it isn't for everyone, and that it isn't somehow morally superior to other forms of relationships.
13
When you have buttsex, do you get poop on your wiener?
Best phrasing of this question ever. Also, I love Dan's reply, but I would have said, "not if you partner isn't a total dirtbag that would let you fuck him/her without knowing they are clean."
Best phrasing of this question ever. Also, I love Dan's reply, but I would have said, "not if you partner isn't a total dirtbag that would let you fuck him/her without knowing they are clean."
14
#12: Interesting point about your grandparents and great-grandparents. The flip side to that would be that I suspect a lot of married WWII soldiers didn't stay 100% sexually celibate while stationed in Asia/or Europe and never told their wives. That doesn't make the 50+ years of married, monogamous bliss after the war any less valid does it? The cheat-once-as-deal-breaker is a very modern phenomenon actually.
Not that this has anything to do with your grandparents/great-grandparents of course....
Not that this has anything to do with your grandparents/great-grandparents of course....
18
@11/12
You need "evidence"? Look around.
But, ok, I'll tell you why *I* think that's true. After years in a mostly-monogamous relationship, my husband and I decided to go the poly route. I was totally 'out' about it; friends, family, coworkers. . . everybody knew I had more than one partner. And something really interesting happened. I became the Guess-What-We're-Not-Really-Monogamous confidant to half the freakin' world. People, most of whom I barely knew, started telling me about their little arrangements in their presumably-monogamous relationships. And a bunch more people told me about how they were cheating, failing to understand the distinction. Between that, and the sky-high divorce rate, and the rate of infidelity within the marriages that do survive. . . I've come to believe that almost nobody is actually monogamous long-term. And in those rare cases, most spouses will be lying to each other about the extent of their interest in other people, even if neither ever acts on it.
I hate being lied to waaaay more than I object to sharing, so I've been opting for polyamory. People still lie and cheat, but there's a lot less incentive to do so. More freedom = less deception. Works for me. If something else works for you, good!
You need "evidence"? Look around.
But, ok, I'll tell you why *I* think that's true. After years in a mostly-monogamous relationship, my husband and I decided to go the poly route. I was totally 'out' about it; friends, family, coworkers. . . everybody knew I had more than one partner. And something really interesting happened. I became the Guess-What-We're-Not-Really-Monogamous confidant to half the freakin' world. People, most of whom I barely knew, started telling me about their little arrangements in their presumably-monogamous relationships. And a bunch more people told me about how they were cheating, failing to understand the distinction. Between that, and the sky-high divorce rate, and the rate of infidelity within the marriages that do survive. . . I've come to believe that almost nobody is actually monogamous long-term. And in those rare cases, most spouses will be lying to each other about the extent of their interest in other people, even if neither ever acts on it.
I hate being lied to waaaay more than I object to sharing, so I've been opting for polyamory. People still lie and cheat, but there's a lot less incentive to do so. More freedom = less deception. Works for me. If something else works for you, good!
19
@14--What is the definition of monogamy? Having one spousal unit. Falling off the wagon invalidates it forever?
And yes, let's not infer anything about my grandparents that they didn't assert, thank you very much.....
Even if some poll suggests 50% of married couples "cheated" that still means 50% didn't. So is it possible? Hell yeah.
And yes, let's not infer anything about my grandparents that they didn't assert, thank you very much.....
Even if some poll suggests 50% of married couples "cheated" that still means 50% didn't. So is it possible? Hell yeah.
20
@18-- yep. Reminds me of the studies that show children whose parents divorce are less inclined to believe that long-term marriage is feasible than those children whose parents are in long-term mariages.
Our own experiences are easily projected to be the norm.....
Hence Dan's (and your?)answer.
Our own experiences are easily projected to be the norm.....
Hence Dan's (and your?)answer.
21
Kelly O and Ari Spool give William McKinley can of Rize, William McKinley drink Rize, freak out, Prez out, WILLIAM MCKINLEY BECOME GROVER CLEVELAND!
GROVER CLEVELAND ISN'T GOING TO BE PRESIDENT ANYTIME THIS MONTH!
And no, I don't feel like letting it go.
GROVER CLEVELAND ISN'T GOING TO BE PRESIDENT ANYTIME THIS MONTH!
And no, I don't feel like letting it go.
22
Dan's answer the the monogamy question should have been "my experience is not applicable." Or maybe even "it doesn't work for me."
23
#13
Clean??
Honey, enjoy and take a shower, and, use a condom and discard to the toilet.
Silly hangup you have that will cost you much in the real world of butt fucking ...
I am a long time expert ... the stories I could tell.
Clean??
Honey, enjoy and take a shower, and, use a condom and discard to the toilet.
Silly hangup you have that will cost you much in the real world of butt fucking ...
I am a long time expert ... the stories I could tell.
24
monogamy = illusion of centuries
monogamy = cover story for the slut partner
monogamy = hard time to explain the STD
monogamy = cover story for the slut partner
monogamy = hard time to explain the STD
25
Re monogamy:
Hey, here's an idea: DON'T form a lifelong partnership with someone that you suspect you won't be attracted to in 10 years.
Hey, here's an idea: DON'T form a lifelong partnership with someone that you suspect you won't be attracted to in 10 years.
26
hartiepie - how about, monogamy can work, but it is rare. Or, it is works much less often than you would think, given the importance and moral superiority placed on monogamy in our society.
27
It's interesting that Str8 young people listen to a 45+ year old man (Dan) while Gay young people wouldn't walk across the street to pee on a 45+ gay man if he was on fire.
28
@ 18,
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I appreciate hearing from you. I'm glad the poly route works for you both. The happiness and satisfaction of the couple is what matters. I respect that. It was only the blanket-like statement, about monogamy usually only working with a heavy application of lies, that I was addressing. Monogamy works for my husband and I, but in the event it ever ceases to we have agreed it will be tossed over the side. We have a, in theory, agreement that if either of us needs to cheat it will be done in the others presence.
Best wishes.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I appreciate hearing from you. I'm glad the poly route works for you both. The happiness and satisfaction of the couple is what matters. I respect that. It was only the blanket-like statement, about monogamy usually only working with a heavy application of lies, that I was addressing. Monogamy works for my husband and I, but in the event it ever ceases to we have agreed it will be tossed over the side. We have a, in theory, agreement that if either of us needs to cheat it will be done in the others presence.
Best wishes.
31
#19: I think the point was that you were implying non-monogamy is a "new-fangled" thing when, in fact, it wasn't. In the 19th Century is was expected married men sometimes visited houses of ill-repute. So long as he supported the wife financially, publicly, and socially she was expected to "don't ask don't tell".
Companionate marriage (soul mates, lifelong sexual fidelity, all that stuff) is a pretty 20th Century construct.
Companionate marriage (soul mates, lifelong sexual fidelity, all that stuff) is a pretty 20th Century construct.
32
@19/20
If half of marriages fail, and half of those that don't are surviving infidelity, and then out of that remaining 25% a significant number have some sort of 'agreement' that makes them technically non-monogamous . . . well. . . I'd say that functional monogamy isn't the norm! I don't think that's me (or Dan) projecting. I think that's me recognizing reality. I still support people trying to beat those odds if it makes them happy. It's just sad to see so many people have their lives and hearts ripped apart over totally normal feelings and behavior.
@28
Sounds like a happy, mature sort of arrangement. :)
If half of marriages fail, and half of those that don't are surviving infidelity, and then out of that remaining 25% a significant number have some sort of 'agreement' that makes them technically non-monogamous . . . well. . . I'd say that functional monogamy isn't the norm! I don't think that's me (or Dan) projecting. I think that's me recognizing reality. I still support people trying to beat those odds if it makes them happy. It's just sad to see so many people have their lives and hearts ripped apart over totally normal feelings and behavior.
@28
Sounds like a happy, mature sort of arrangement. :)
33
@19
A. YES, one spousal unit falling off the wagon (even BEFORE marriage) invalidates it as far as communicable microbes, and the far right who really care about such things (not that there may be such a great difference), are concerned.
B. It is not "50% of married haven't cheated," it's "50% of married haven't cheated YET." That 50% of "monogamous" includes many people who haven't been married long enough to know how their marriage will hold up, and many who have no idea what their spouses have done. Since the average U.S. marriage only lasts about 6-7 years, the odds are great that only a small percentage of those will make it monogamously for their lifetime.
Monogamy is NOT normal. It's abnormal among most species, it's abnormal among primates, and it's very abnormal among humans. It's great if monogamy works for you. It's great if celibacy works for some people, too. But holding these up as a model for humans is setting most people up for disappointment, deception, and divorce. The inability of people to acknowledge this publicly for fear of being shamed is one reason why the U.S. has by far the highest STI and abortion rates in the industrialized world.
A. YES, one spousal unit falling off the wagon (even BEFORE marriage) invalidates it as far as communicable microbes, and the far right who really care about such things (not that there may be such a great difference), are concerned.
B. It is not "50% of married haven't cheated," it's "50% of married haven't cheated YET." That 50% of "monogamous" includes many people who haven't been married long enough to know how their marriage will hold up, and many who have no idea what their spouses have done. Since the average U.S. marriage only lasts about 6-7 years, the odds are great that only a small percentage of those will make it monogamously for their lifetime.
Monogamy is NOT normal. It's abnormal among most species, it's abnormal among primates, and it's very abnormal among humans. It's great if monogamy works for you. It's great if celibacy works for some people, too. But holding these up as a model for humans is setting most people up for disappointment, deception, and divorce. The inability of people to acknowledge this publicly for fear of being shamed is one reason why the U.S. has by far the highest STI and abortion rates in the industrialized world.
34
It would appear that from a biological standpoint monogamy is not normal for human males. Women can be pregnant once every nine months. But men can make dozens of women pregnant in that same amount of time. Humans don't have a particular season for mating or birthing. And women stop being fertile in middle age while men can be fertile their entire life.
35
@32
What on earth does the marriage success rate have to do with a conversation about whether monogamy is normative?
Does the number of teen break-ups also deal a major blow to the concept of normative monogamy?
If there are four people -- two married couples -- and the initial marriages split, and the couples pair off with each other, you have two failed marriages and two successful marriages. That says absolutely nothing about monogamy.
There's no reason to attack something you don't like with shoddy reasoning just because you don't like it.
What on earth does the marriage success rate have to do with a conversation about whether monogamy is normative?
Does the number of teen break-ups also deal a major blow to the concept of normative monogamy?
If there are four people -- two married couples -- and the initial marriages split, and the couples pair off with each other, you have two failed marriages and two successful marriages. That says absolutely nothing about monogamy.
There's no reason to attack something you don't like with shoddy reasoning just because you don't like it.
37
@35: Perhaps you should re-read the original question posed to Dan: "Do you think monogamy works?" This has nothing at all to do with whether monogamy is "normative." (Normative is not the same as Normal.) Each commenter is supporting his-or-her opinion with anecdotal evidence, which is about the level of rigor I expect from a comment thread on a blog. Violet's comment @32 seems to be drawing a distinction between what most people say is normal, and what most people actually do. Hardly an attack.
38
34
then why are males and females born in roughly equal numbers? If biology intended males to service dozens of females then there would be dozens of females conceived per male.
then why are males and females born in roughly equal numbers? If biology intended males to service dozens of females then there would be dozens of females conceived per male.
39
I wonder why people think we can't rise above our primate behaviors? Why can't we somehow behave consciously in regards to what many of us experience as a spiritual act, without being mocked as passe or naive?
41
@39
I wouldn't say the desire to be monogamous is passe or naive. But yeah, I do think it requires a certain amount of denial about our own biology, and about what most people accomplish in practice. If you can "rise above" your naked-monkey reality, and your partner can too, and that makes you both happy, fabulous! Hell, I think I envy you a bit.
I wouldn't say the desire to be monogamous is passe or naive. But yeah, I do think it requires a certain amount of denial about our own biology, and about what most people accomplish in practice. If you can "rise above" your naked-monkey reality, and your partner can too, and that makes you both happy, fabulous! Hell, I think I envy you a bit.
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