Slog
News & ArtsMonday, February 2, 2009
Homo / Politics / Religion Oh, That Funding
Posted by Dominic Holden on Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 3:20 PM
Remember how the Mormon Church denied funding Prop 8, other than $2,078 in travel expenses to send an Elder to California? A lawsuit filed by Californians Against Hate seems to have changed the church's position:
Mormon church officials, facing an ongoing investigation by the state Fair Political Practices Commission, Friday reported nearly $190,000 in previously unlisted assistance to the successful campaign for Prop. 8, which banned same-sex marriage in California.The report, filed with the secretary of state's office, listed a variety of California travel expenses for high-ranking members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and included $20,575 for use of facilities and equipment at the church's Salt Lake City headquarters and a $96,849 charge for "compensated staff time" for church employees who worked on matters pertaining to Prop. 8.
When I interviewed several Mormons in December, asking what they thought about the congregation members donating to the measure, they initially denied knowledge of it. When told that individual Mormons had donated nearly two-thirds of Prop 8's funding, they acted like the number was far too big to be real. But all along, they insisted, the Mormon Church itself had never meddled in the measure; that could have been illegal, seeing how spending money to affect elections jeopardizes a church's tax-exempt status.
Via Americablog.
2
Agreed, it's time for businesses like the LDS & Catholic Churches that peddle voodoo, and meddle in politics, to pay their fair share of taxes.
3
Bzzzt! Thanks for playing.
IRS rules requre non-profits refrain from endorsing candidates, but not from promoting ballot measures.
IRS rules requre non-profits refrain from endorsing candidates, but not from promoting ballot measures.
6
@ 3) Thank you for playing. Under IRS rules, churches operating as 501(c)(3)s are prohibited from investing substantial resources attempting to influence legislation--which includes "a referendum, ballot initiative, constitutional amendment, or similar procedure." It issue, legally speaking and thoroughly ambiguous, is whether a church spends a "substantial" amount of its resources lobbying.
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p1828.pdf
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p1828.pdf
10
When we start stripping Churches' tax exempt status for campaigning on Prop 8 how many gay-friendly churches will feel the bite?
11
I want the pressure to stay on them. They're admitting to a $188,000 "oops" right now. There's no way that's the whole story.
12
If members of the Mormon contributed 2/3 of pro Prop 8 that would be $23 million.
$190,000 doesn't seem too substantial.
$190,000 doesn't seem too substantial.
14
And the $23 million was only from Mormons in 5 states. How far will $230 million go next time? (If all US Mormons are made aware of the opportunity to help)
15
Apologists need to grow up. The LDS "church" elders are scumbags whose time has passed. They need to butt out and live in the modern world.
18
Changing the tax status of the Mormon Church won't give Gays the right to marry. Keep your eyes on the prize, folks.
20
The $190,000 cited is
.0006% of Mormon assets and
.5% of total anti Prop 8 spending;
where does it become 'substantial', Dominic?
.0006% of Mormon assets and
.5% of total anti Prop 8 spending;
where does it become 'substantial', Dominic?
21
19
The 'Mormons'; members of the Church; are individuals who may donate as much as they wish- $20+ million this time- plenty more where that came from.
If the Mormon 'Church' gave the full $190,000 it was a drop in the bucket by any measure.
Attempting to strip the tax exempt status of the Mormon Church is a fools' errand that will fail and will not affect future measures. The attempt will probably motivate Mormons to dig deeper next time, however.
The 'Mormons'; members of the Church; are individuals who may donate as much as they wish- $20+ million this time- plenty more where that came from.
If the Mormon 'Church' gave the full $190,000 it was a drop in the bucket by any measure.
Attempting to strip the tax exempt status of the Mormon Church is a fools' errand that will fail and will not affect future measures. The attempt will probably motivate Mormons to dig deeper next time, however.
25
23 I thought the whole point of our conversation here is that the church LIED about the money spent. In your hurry to defend them, you forget to address that part.
What about the lies?
What about the lies?
26
@20:
Name another organization that single-handedly contributed that much to the Prop 8 campaign, and you've answered your own question.
While the interpretation of what constitutes "substantial", may be admittedly subjective, in this case, a "mere" $190,000 could be considered so, especially in light of the fact that much of that expenditure appears to have been directly used to encourage members to make individual contributions.
Had LDS NOT spent that money in the first place, it's entirely likely their members would not have contributed to the "Yes on 8" campaign to the extent they did, and THAT surely would have had some impact on whether or not it might have passed otherwise.
Name another organization that single-handedly contributed that much to the Prop 8 campaign, and you've answered your own question.
While the interpretation of what constitutes "substantial", may be admittedly subjective, in this case, a "mere" $190,000 could be considered so, especially in light of the fact that much of that expenditure appears to have been directly used to encourage members to make individual contributions.
Had LDS NOT spent that money in the first place, it's entirely likely their members would not have contributed to the "Yes on 8" campaign to the extent they did, and THAT surely would have had some impact on whether or not it might have passed otherwise.
28
The insubstantial $190,000 does not become substantial because it is used effectively.
You grasp at straws.
You grasp at straws.
29
26
The category called "not the Mormon Church" contributed 99.5% to pro Prop 8.
$190,000 is not substantial.
The category called "not the Mormon Church" contributed 99.5% to pro Prop 8.
$190,000 is not substantial.
30
#8
Over 80 million total was spent - most expensive campaign in Calif. history
Really a non - story, not a victory at all, the victory is WINNING at the ballot box. now look for Catholics to file about all that work in the hundreds of Calif. parishes, need to move on, get out of the old mire.
Over 80 million total was spent - most expensive campaign in Calif. history
Really a non - story, not a victory at all, the victory is WINNING at the ballot box. now look for Catholics to file about all that work in the hundreds of Calif. parishes, need to move on, get out of the old mire.
31
I don't know whether the Mormon's Prop 8 support was or wasn't "substantial" in the eyes of the IRS. That's a mushy area. But money is only a one part of what defines a "substantial" investment. Says the IRS in the link I posted above:
The IRS considers a variety of factors,including the time devoted (by both compensated and volunteer workers) and the expenditures devoted by the organization to the activity, when determining whether the lobbying activity is substantial. Churches must use the substantial part test since they are not eligible to use the expenditure test described in the next section.
Volunteer hours, volunteered resources, directives from leaders for members to donate to Prop 8, direct contributions to the campaign, and other efforts from the church could factor into determining whether it's substantial. And again, I don't know if it is. But it does look like the church lied about its financial contribution. Surely, the good Book o' Mormon condemns lying.
32
Whether it's substantial or not remains up to the IRS to determine. But they definitely need to start looking into this.
33
31
You stray from your area of expertise when you preach the Book of Mormon, Dominic.
Perhaps you could acquaint yourself with the pertinent IRS regulations and talk to "several (more) Mormons" (maybe some who actually represent the Church?) and get back to us when there is something to report?
Your breathless speculation hardly passes for journalism (even by UW The Daily 'standards')
You stray from your area of expertise when you preach the Book of Mormon, Dominic.
Perhaps you could acquaint yourself with the pertinent IRS regulations and talk to "several (more) Mormons" (maybe some who actually represent the Church?) and get back to us when there is something to report?
Your breathless speculation hardly passes for journalism (even by UW The Daily 'standards')
34
Removing the Mormon Church's tax exempt status really isn't likely to happen. Reading the many articles available on this subject, what seems to worry the Morons most is the public disclosure of those who donate. On this matter they have already lost.
Bigots shouldn't be ashamed to defend their bigotry.
Keep coming back with a new initiative/proposition every other year. Force the Morons and the Church of the Pedophiles to spend more and more money each time.
Continue to expose the bigots who contribute to oppose marriage equality and boycott their businesses.
As a generational matter more and more of them will die off, thankfully.
The margin of victory opposing marriage equality has been narrowing significantly in California each time the matter has come up.
The more we keep up the fight, the more likely we will win.
The Morons and the Church of the Pedophiles are on the wrong side of history. They know it, and they know time is not on their side.
Bigots shouldn't be ashamed to defend their bigotry.
Keep coming back with a new initiative/proposition every other year. Force the Morons and the Church of the Pedophiles to spend more and more money each time.
Continue to expose the bigots who contribute to oppose marriage equality and boycott their businesses.
As a generational matter more and more of them will die off, thankfully.
The margin of victory opposing marriage equality has been narrowing significantly in California each time the matter has come up.
The more we keep up the fight, the more likely we will win.
The Morons and the Church of the Pedophiles are on the wrong side of history. They know it, and they know time is not on their side.
35
31
Interesting point, but the reference to Mormonism was asked in the form of a question. "Surely, the good Book o' Mormon condemns lying."
None of you apologists seem willing to defend the lies told by the church. What is the churches teaching about telling lies?
Dishonestly sure seems to be ingrained in the culture of the church. Please address that.
Interesting point, but the reference to Mormonism was asked in the form of a question. "Surely, the good Book o' Mormon condemns lying."
None of you apologists seem willing to defend the lies told by the church. What is the churches teaching about telling lies?
Dishonestly sure seems to be ingrained in the culture of the church. Please address that.
39
I fear people are getting their hopes up for naught, perhaps you have noticed a new crowd is running the IRS now. 'Lie' is such a harsh word. If mistakes have been made (and we are caught) we apologize, pay up and move on.
41
38
Oh please, don't be coy.
This is about the Mormons lies. They have lied over and over and been found out over and over.
this is just the latest lie exposed.
Oh please, don't be coy.
This is about the Mormons lies. They have lied over and over and been found out over and over.
this is just the latest lie exposed.
42
Churches get around the IRS statutes by talking about general principles they define as "Christian" without mentioning specific candidates or ballot quesions. For example, the Mormons could quote the "Homosexuality is an Abomination" verses from Leviticus and elsewhere ad nauseum on the Sundays before election day without saying a single word about Prop 8. They don't need to since their sheep--oops, flock--wait...congregation is then whipped into such an anti-homo frenzy that they are stampeding to the ballot box two days later.
In all fairness, liberal pastors do the exact same thing, although the focus for them is generally on world peace, taking care of the environment and justice for the oppressed. I know this from actual experience.
Don't know if this answers the question of whether any churches in California opposed Prop 8. My best guess is that the gay friendly churches there (and there are many) chose to speak out against bigotry in general and let those who have ears hear. They probably knew better than to blatantly violate IRS laws by mentioning Prop 8 from the pulpit or by donating funds to the No campaign.
In all fairness, liberal pastors do the exact same thing, although the focus for them is generally on world peace, taking care of the environment and justice for the oppressed. I know this from actual experience.
Don't know if this answers the question of whether any churches in California opposed Prop 8. My best guess is that the gay friendly churches there (and there are many) chose to speak out against bigotry in general and let those who have ears hear. They probably knew better than to blatantly violate IRS laws by mentioning Prop 8 from the pulpit or by donating funds to the No campaign.
43
It's also interesting to note the Mormons who were reimbursed by the Yes on 8 campaign for their efforts:
Expenditures made:
http://cal-access.sos.ca.gov/Campaign/Co…
Lawrence Research (Gary Lawrence, Mormon pollster and Meridian contributor): $528,877.35
Eagle Foundation (a Mormon PAC set up by Bart Marcois and David Parker): $135,912.76
Glen Greener (former Salt Lake City Police Commissioner, Meridian contributor, and now a GOP operative and sometime Cali property developer): $50,236.42
Sonja Brown (Protectmarriage.com communications director): $41,844.00
Zion Multimedia Corp.: $2,000.00
Rob Wirthlin: $768.18
These kinds of campaigns are cash cows for the "grassroots organizers" and Prop 8 no doubt helped Gary Lawrence, Bart Marcois, David Parker and their LDS buddies to position themselves to be even bigger players the next time a similar initiative comes around. I've heard in comments over at my place that these guys were overheard gloating in the ward (church) hallway about the awesome lists that they now have in hand because of the Prop 8 effort.
There could very well be other Mormons in that list of payees, but I've mentioned the ones I recognize.
Expenditures made:
http://cal-access.sos.ca.gov/Campaign/Co…
Lawrence Research (Gary Lawrence, Mormon pollster and Meridian contributor): $528,877.35
Eagle Foundation (a Mormon PAC set up by Bart Marcois and David Parker): $135,912.76
Glen Greener (former Salt Lake City Police Commissioner, Meridian contributor, and now a GOP operative and sometime Cali property developer): $50,236.42
Sonja Brown (Protectmarriage.com communications director): $41,844.00
Zion Multimedia Corp.: $2,000.00
Rob Wirthlin: $768.18
These kinds of campaigns are cash cows for the "grassroots organizers" and Prop 8 no doubt helped Gary Lawrence, Bart Marcois, David Parker and their LDS buddies to position themselves to be even bigger players the next time a similar initiative comes around. I've heard in comments over at my place that these guys were overheard gloating in the ward (church) hallway about the awesome lists that they now have in hand because of the Prop 8 effort.
There could very well be other Mormons in that list of payees, but I've mentioned the ones I recognize.
44
@29: Isn't defining "substantial" as a percentage of total assets as you're doing essentially saying that the very rich can sway an election legally? Because it only requires an "insubstantial" portion of their total funds?
45
@44,
Painful as it is, my understanding of the IRS code is that the term "substantial" is defined by the assets of the nonprofit in question.
So the short answer to your question is yes.
Painful as it is, my understanding of the IRS code is that the term "substantial" is defined by the assets of the nonprofit in question.
So the short answer to your question is yes.
46
45
So the Mormon Church could wage a Prop 8 sized $200,000 campaign every week for a year and the total expenditure would come to an insubstantial 0.03% of their assets.
Gosh, Dominic, it looks like you've really got them on the run.
So the Mormon Church could wage a Prop 8 sized $200,000 campaign every week for a year and the total expenditure would come to an insubstantial 0.03% of their assets.
Gosh, Dominic, it looks like you've really got them on the run.
47
#31
such a waste of time to do much more of the Mormon bashing thing ... I have no truck with any organized religion, but, in the marriage dog fight ballot stuff it seems, to win, it is nice to have them on your side.
Face it, we lost and they are a fair part of the reason... money, grassroots organizing and on down the list.
Our need as queers is to WIN, and all the Mormon bashing to the end of the world does not compensate for our shitty campaigns ... so just keep whining and bashing.
IRS will do nothing ... neither Calif folks, if they broke the posting rules, now, corrected, all moot ... end of the issue.
And it is interesting how the lapsed Catholics like to Mormon bash, even talking doctrine, given their role, Catholic Church, complete with bishops, thousands of parish messages, money and a fucked to the max Nazi Pope who is a maniac when it come to homos ...ah the logic.
In a way it is scapegoating - fuck that big tent full of so called Christian Bigots, all of them.
And if we don't get better at campaigns, we will loose thirty more ... many without much Mormon anything, sorry for the bad news.
such a waste of time to do much more of the Mormon bashing thing ... I have no truck with any organized religion, but, in the marriage dog fight ballot stuff it seems, to win, it is nice to have them on your side.
Face it, we lost and they are a fair part of the reason... money, grassroots organizing and on down the list.
Our need as queers is to WIN, and all the Mormon bashing to the end of the world does not compensate for our shitty campaigns ... so just keep whining and bashing.
IRS will do nothing ... neither Calif folks, if they broke the posting rules, now, corrected, all moot ... end of the issue.
And it is interesting how the lapsed Catholics like to Mormon bash, even talking doctrine, given their role, Catholic Church, complete with bishops, thousands of parish messages, money and a fucked to the max Nazi Pope who is a maniac when it come to homos ...ah the logic.
In a way it is scapegoating - fuck that big tent full of so called Christian Bigots, all of them.
And if we don't get better at campaigns, we will loose thirty more ... many without much Mormon anything, sorry for the bad news.
48
47
The 'Mormon bashing' on SLOG relating to Gay Marriage is odd.
There are 29 states going back over 10 years that already passed bans on gay marriage (with apparently no effort from Mormons) before Prop 8. Attacking Mormons (and Evangelicals and Catholics and Blacks etc) seems to be a feel-good exercise for some but isn't going to advance Gay Marriage.
The 'Mormon bashing' on SLOG relating to Gay Marriage is odd.
There are 29 states going back over 10 years that already passed bans on gay marriage (with apparently no effort from Mormons) before Prop 8. Attacking Mormons (and Evangelicals and Catholics and Blacks etc) seems to be a feel-good exercise for some but isn't going to advance Gay Marriage.
49
Black churches have always gotten away with blatant political activity, including supporting candidates. Has there been any examination of their efforts to pass Proposition 8 in California?
50
I really enjoy all the snarl and growl - queers are too passive too often.
But, I think it is time to move on. They are finally de briefing in Calif. and talking the weak parts of our campaign. Need more of that and some learning, preparing for the next round.
Matt Foreman, Task Force person, an excellent essay, in the current SGN, which explains how difficult our task is on gay marriage. Read it. He points out how entrenched the negatives are in many voting sectors.
We need to skilled persuaders of targeted demographics. Very skilled. We talk to the converted too much, ie. each other.
But, I think it is time to move on. They are finally de briefing in Calif. and talking the weak parts of our campaign. Need more of that and some learning, preparing for the next round.
Matt Foreman, Task Force person, an excellent essay, in the current SGN, which explains how difficult our task is on gay marriage. Read it. He points out how entrenched the negatives are in many voting sectors.
We need to skilled persuaders of targeted demographics. Very skilled. We talk to the converted too much, ie. each other.
51
The IRS has it right. Churches should be free to work as hard as they want to in favor or against any legislation or initiatives, just not candidates. My church lobbies hard in favor of marriage equality for all people. Can you imagine if Martin Luther King had been forbidden from working for civil rights just because he was a pastor? Should the churches supporting the civil rights movements in the 1960s have had their tax status revoked for putting their faith into practice?
But it's totally right to blast the LDS church in public. Freedom of speech cuts both ways.
But it's totally right to blast the LDS church in public. Freedom of speech cuts both ways.
52
Yes. Please. Take away the tax-exempt status of this lying, meddling church! Show them all that the law will be enforced!
53
Have you heard the secrets of the mormon church? Of course lies are okay: Exhibit A is Joe Smith's story about the gold plates and the hat!
54
$190,000 is more than ten times the amount of money I lived on last year, including providing 50% of the support for my child. That's substantial.
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