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News & ArtsSaturday, January 31, 2009
Hetero Every Child Deserves a Mother and a Father
Posted by Dan Savage on Sat, Jan 31, 2009 at 9:13 AM
The "every child deserves" fundies are screaming about this, right?
An ethical debate erupted Friday after it was learned that the Southern California woman who gave birth to octuplets this week had six children already.Large multiple births "are presented on TV shows as a 'Brady Bunch' moment. They're not," fumed Arthur Caplan, bioethics chairman at the University of Pennsylvania. He noted the serious and sometimes lethal complications and crushing medical costs that often come with high-multiple births.
But Dr. Jeffrey Steinberg, who has fertility clinics in Los Angeles, Las Vegas and New York, countered: "Who am I to say that six is the limit? There are people who like to have big families." ... The children's grandmother, Angela Suleman, told The Associated Press her daughter resorted to in vitro fertilization because "her fallopian tubes are plugged up" and she had trouble conceiving.
She said her daughter, who is unmarried, conceived all her children that way and has been obsessed with having children since she was a teenager. Fourteen grandchildren later, Suleman expects her daughter is finished with fertility treatment.
"It's over now," she said. "It has to be. It can't go on any longer. She's got [14] children and no husband. I was brought up the traditional way. I firmly believe in marriage. But she didn't want to get married. So she got the in vitro."
Fourteen children by in vitro and no husband. The screamers are screaming, right? Or is just lesbian parents that get shouted at for "depriving" children of fathers?
1
Come on, Dan. She gets to be a hero because she didn't choose selective reduction. I have to admit, I wouldn't do selective reduction, either, so I think her error was choosing to implant so many. Now we will have to pay for them, which doesn't seem to faze the Republicans who don't want to raise taxes. See, she didn't have SEX. This is so stupid and irresponsible of her and her doctor.
5
If human females were biologically predisposed to drop litters of six, seven, or eight pups like a canine bitch, they'd have at least that many breasts, no?
The more I hear about this sad, sad story, the more wrong it seems on just every level.
The more I hear about this sad, sad story, the more wrong it seems on just every level.
6
And who is paying for these kids? She is unmarried, so if she's staying home to raise her children, where does the money come from? If she's working, someone needs to provide day care.
From the article:
Records show that she held a psychiatric technician's license from 1997 to 2002. It was unclear whether she is now employed.
On Thursday night, the children's grandfather came to the door and angrily told reporters to leave the property.
[snip]
Court records show Suleman filed for bankruptcy last March, but after she failed to make required payments and appear at a creditors' meeting, the case was dismissed. She reported liabilities of $981,371, mostly money owed on two houses she owns in Whittier.
From the article:
Records show that she held a psychiatric technician's license from 1997 to 2002. It was unclear whether she is now employed.
On Thursday night, the children's grandfather came to the door and angrily told reporters to leave the property.
[snip]
Court records show Suleman filed for bankruptcy last March, but after she failed to make required payments and appear at a creditors' meeting, the case was dismissed. She reported liabilities of $981,371, mostly money owed on two houses she owns in Whittier.
8
This woman is grossly irresponsible and selfish, whatever doctor put eight embryos in her should lose their license .
9
I'm confused. In vitro is super expensive, right? She's bankrupt, right? Where did the $$ come from for all of this? And do Doctors just do this shit w/o ANY ethical restrictions, or without regard to cost either? I know people who are married and don't have the $$ to afford this shit... again, how could she afford this?
10
Wow! Another freak show for Discovery TV. Child protective services will no doubt pay for live in nannies to help raise the litter. If not, one will probably roll under the couch and be discovered a month later.
12
This story really troubled me for a variety of reasons.
As a twin, I feel connected to this story because both her children and myself were multiple births. My parents had two young children aged 2 and 6, and then had twins. I can only imagine what they had to go through to raise us all.
But I'm also concerned about the proper care and attention that her children will receive. Twins - let alone octuplets - share a lot more than just a birthday. I think all the 8 + 6 children will have an uphill battle for their entire lives.
As a twin, I feel connected to this story because both her children and myself were multiple births. My parents had two young children aged 2 and 6, and then had twins. I can only imagine what they had to go through to raise us all.
But I'm also concerned about the proper care and attention that her children will receive. Twins - let alone octuplets - share a lot more than just a birthday. I think all the 8 + 6 children will have an uphill battle for their entire lives.
13
there was a father for the 1st 4 kids. he bailed. the rest have been donors. 1 kid of the 1st 6 is autistic!
my guess: they're iraqi christians, as dad is going "back" there to make enough money to pay for his crazy fucking daughter. and, being immigrants, committing their bugfuck crazy breeder to a mental hospital would be too shameful.
my guess: they're iraqi christians, as dad is going "back" there to make enough money to pay for his crazy fucking daughter. and, being immigrants, committing their bugfuck crazy breeder to a mental hospital would be too shameful.
14
Why does the woman feel the need to go for seven anyway? You have 6 kids at home, all under the age of 7, that were born naturally. You live at home, have been bankrupt, and have no husband. If you read the grandmother's comments she said something about her daughter going the IV route b/c the natural way wasn't working. Well, isn't that a sign that maybe you should, I don't know, focus on the six kids you have already?
Someone needs to be stripped of their medical license and/or social workers need to be involved in any/all IV procedures. The rough part of that is that it creates a hurdle for all the women struggling to have one child.
I'm pro-choice and think gov't should stay out of women's reproductive choices, but the medical association or someone needs to step up.
Why does the woman feel the need to go for seven anyway? You have 6 kids at home, all under the age of 7, that were born naturally. You live at home, have been bankrupt, and have no husband. If you read the grandmother's comments she said something about her daughter going the IV route b/c the natural way wasn't working. Well, isn't that a sign that maybe you should, I don't know, focus on the six kids you have already?
Someone needs to be stripped of their medical license and/or social workers need to be involved in any/all IV procedures. The rough part of that is that it creates a hurdle for all the women struggling to have one child.
I'm pro-choice and think gov't should stay out of women's reproductive choices, but the medical association or someone needs to step up.
15
She said her daughter, who is unmarried, conceived all her children that way and has been obsessed with having children since she was a teenager. Fourteen grandchildren later, Suleman expects her daughter is finished with fertility treatment.
The woman is mentally ill. She is not fit to raise these unfortunate children. She should be committed to an institution where she can be treated and hopefully sterilized.
The woman is mentally ill. She is not fit to raise these unfortunate children. She should be committed to an institution where she can be treated and hopefully sterilized.
16
Honestly, I can see both sides. Some pregnancies can be dangerous for the mother, which can put her life at risk. At the same time, ending a pregnancy early also kills the child. I don’t know if the mother’s life or the child’s life is more important. We really need to think about both sides and maybe find a middle ground.
17
Other countries limit the number of embryos that can be implanted at once in IVF. I think we ought to follow suit. Yes, I believe in reproductive choice, but there are ethical guidelines for many sorts of procedures in medicine, best practices, etc., and I don't see why IVF should be exempt.
18
@16 - the "middle ground" of which you speak might be something like getting this woman into therapy to figure out why she feels she MUST have 14 children. My sister was always the princess in our house: after 2 boys, Mom was glad to have a girl. Nevertheless, she felt neglected growing up (resented mom's having a job, etc.) and now has 7 children and is ready to have "as many more as the Lord wants her to." So maybe it's to satisfy some feeling of being unloved as a child. Seems like childbearing-as-therapy is maybe not quite the answer, but maybe after this chick has another 10 or 12 she will start to feel good about herself.
20
You know, we can talk about how she should be committed and is crazy and all that but I think we need to first realize that there is no one who could tell her NO!
Our social values are such that regulations on child birth, and the morality of it, are not commonly discussed and rarely put into law.
I mean, you could ask oneself, if after 6 children, you want to have more, why is it legal for you to undergo in vitro when you could adopt an ALREADY EXISTING child?
Our social values are such that regulations on child birth, and the morality of it, are not commonly discussed and rarely put into law.
I mean, you could ask oneself, if after 6 children, you want to have more, why is it legal for you to undergo in vitro when you could adopt an ALREADY EXISTING child?
21
Every single fertilized egg in a petrie dish is a fully-realized human being, and a failure to implant each and every one of those fertilized eggs into a womb where it is brought to term is MURDER! It doesn't matter the cost, or the medical risks, or the circumstances the child will be born into, all that matters is that the moment a sperm penetrates the plasma membrane of an egg that child must be born at whatever cost or it's MURDER.
This woman is a hero! She prevented eight murders.
This woman is a hero! She prevented eight murders.
23
This whole story is disgusting. What the fuck kind of quality of life can a single person provide for FOURTEEN children? Even if she WAS independently wealthy (a la Angelina Jolie) she can't possibly provide responsibly for this kind of family on her own, and that's not a comment on whether she's straight, bi or gay. It doesn't matter. The kids will be neglected and that's all there is to it. "Obsessed with having kids"? Someone should have gotten her a Barbie doll set... and added 13 more dolls. "Here take care of these for eighteen years, THEN we can talk."
What was the justification in the mind of the doc who stuffed her full of embryos? Money? Fame? Certainly not good medicine!
On a side note, why is it always these low-SES motherfuckers that are always having this giant litters?
What was the justification in the mind of the doc who stuffed her full of embryos? Money? Fame? Certainly not good medicine!
On a side note, why is it always these low-SES motherfuckers that are always having this giant litters?
24
So, if she's in bankruptcy, how did she pay for the fertilzation procedures? Maybe the crazyfuck doctor did this one pro bono for the publicity. I'm with the Penn bioethicist -- this is insane.
25
#9 raises a very good question. We all know there are doctors who'll do anything if the price is right - Michael Jackson getting yet another plastic surgery, Elvis getting his panoply of pills, women who want double D breast implants. If you have the cash, you can get a doctor to do anything. And please don't tell me that Bill Gates gets the same quality of health care that most of us do. But this lady was broke. Maybe she mortgaged her house for the fertilizations? Maybe the expense drove her into bankruptcy? Either way, there's a sickness there.
I have real issues with people anyway - in this day and time - who insist on having large families. It's ignorance and narcissism. There aren't any farms that need staffing. We're no longer at a point where you can expect half of your children to die of some disease before the age of five. The Earth can no longer sustain that kind of population growth and people who insist on breeding until there's not any room to breathe should - I don't know - stop. The Earth's balance needs to supersede religious beliefs and/or the whatever big, hot, juicy-eyed thrill there is in blowing out a litter of kids.
I have real issues with people anyway - in this day and time - who insist on having large families. It's ignorance and narcissism. There aren't any farms that need staffing. We're no longer at a point where you can expect half of your children to die of some disease before the age of five. The Earth can no longer sustain that kind of population growth and people who insist on breeding until there's not any room to breathe should - I don't know - stop. The Earth's balance needs to supersede religious beliefs and/or the whatever big, hot, juicy-eyed thrill there is in blowing out a litter of kids.
26
Oh, yeah, and the bit about grandpa going back to Iraq to earn money for his family in California? I could help but laugh out loud at that one.
27
@21. It's a relief to know that you'll be jumping in to pay for their expenses so they won't be taking money from me.
30
I read several articles on this yesterday, and it's not the woman who had the litter who filed bankruptcy, it's her mom. They have yet to name the 8-baby mom, and the references to bankruptcy used the grandma's last name.
32
The women in my family are breeders. Before the invention of the BC pill, we could drop a kid every two years without any trouble. After women had free access to the BC pill, the most children anyone in my family ever gave birth to was 2. Any more than that were adopted.
As # 25 Bauhaus pointed out, this isn't the third world. We don't need child labor for the family farm. Our infant mortality rate isn't 40% before 15 years. If you want a family, you really don't need to have more than 1 or 2 kids.
People like this woman and the Duggars must be mentally ill. They make China's "One Child" rule seem perfectly reasonable.
As # 25 Bauhaus pointed out, this isn't the third world. We don't need child labor for the family farm. Our infant mortality rate isn't 40% before 15 years. If you want a family, you really don't need to have more than 1 or 2 kids.
People like this woman and the Duggars must be mentally ill. They make China's "One Child" rule seem perfectly reasonable.
33
Even if she didn't have nearly a million dollars in debt (and obviously lacks the means to provide for these children for 18 years, let alone send them to college), there aren't enough hours in the day to spend adequate time with 14 children. There's going to be a lot of dysfunctional young adults streaming out of her home.
34
She needs to create a village, as Hillary said, to raise her 14 children.
How about a Greenwich Village of gay male couples to come in and babysit?
How about a Greenwich Village of gay male couples to come in and babysit?
35
I'm not blaming the mother - as numerous people have noted before, she's obviously bugfuck crazy. But the doctor who implanted the eggs? Whole 'nother story. He should never be able to practice medicine ever again. Anywhere.
Maybe he could get a nice, cushy job doing executions for the State of Texas or something. I hear they're having a hard time finding doctors who want to do that.
Maybe he could get a nice, cushy job doing executions for the State of Texas or something. I hear they're having a hard time finding doctors who want to do that.
36
@29. I would just like to point out to everyone who is reading this that I clicked on "flamingbanjo" and read the associated post. It is absolutely horrifying. This woman keeps repeating "the greatest good for the greatest number" as a mantra for saving embryos in a ridiculous pro-life allegory. From what I understand, she would leave two of her own children to die in a fire if it meant she could save 30 frozen embryos by wheeling them out in a freezer. What. The. Fuck.
37
Dan,
Agree. I was dismayed at the news that she had 6 children already and was unmarried. Those poor children and the woman's mother. Instead of a tranquil retirement she (the woman's mother) will be compelled to assist in the rearing of those children. Indeed, that mother of 14 children is as irresponsible as the Everett, WA man who at age 29y/o has sired 13 children and is currently in prison for 20 years for promoting prostitution. All of those children will grow up w/o fathers. A tragedy for all. The fertility clinic holds some accountability as well.
Agree. I was dismayed at the news that she had 6 children already and was unmarried. Those poor children and the woman's mother. Instead of a tranquil retirement she (the woman's mother) will be compelled to assist in the rearing of those children. Indeed, that mother of 14 children is as irresponsible as the Everett, WA man who at age 29y/o has sired 13 children and is currently in prison for 20 years for promoting prostitution. All of those children will grow up w/o fathers. A tragedy for all. The fertility clinic holds some accountability as well.
38
I hate to see these multiple births being celebrated as a miracle. NBC had the smiling team of doctors, etc. all proud. Gee, what a great human-interest story? Perhaps she'll get the 9 p.m. slot after "John and Kate Plus Eight" or "Meet the Duggars" (or whateverthefuck their show is called). Litters equal TV jackpots folks! I love TLC for the obesity shows though....
39
"The every-child-deserves fundies are screaming about this, right?"
They're screaming about non-white litter-mommies collecting welfare off the backs off God Fearin' Hard-Working White Men. I keep getting a "Network Timeout" and "server down" messages from the Freepers. I think they found something other than Obama to obsess about.
They're screaming about non-white litter-mommies collecting welfare off the backs off God Fearin' Hard-Working White Men. I keep getting a "Network Timeout" and "server down" messages from the Freepers. I think they found something other than Obama to obsess about.
41
Interesting. I wonder if this woman will get any help from the community as white multiple-birth parents get. Seriously, any white couple that has six+ babies at once wins the fucking lottery. They'll get a free house, food, diapers, medical care, trips to space camp for their kids. They don't have to hold a real job for at least the next 18 years.
Of course, non-white couples don't get this kind of charity. I'll bet Suleman isn't white enough.
Of course, non-white couples don't get this kind of charity. I'll bet Suleman isn't white enough.
42
OMG! I just read flamingbanjo's story on her site. This woman is completly nuts, could never work in healthcare and is so delusional I wonder if she is mentally unstable.
43
@36 and @42:
Oh, jesus. Allow me to explain more clearly. It's called "irony." Or "Reducto ad absurdum."
Although any right-to-lifer true to their convictions should be able to endorse it un-ironically with no qualms.
Oh, jesus. Allow me to explain more clearly. It's called "irony." Or "Reducto ad absurdum."
Although any right-to-lifer true to their convictions should be able to endorse it un-ironically with no qualms.
44
To flip something that gets said about gays: if everybody had as many kids as this woman, we'd all die out in a few generations.
46
43
It's OK honey,
you sit in the corner babbling Latin.
The nice men in white coats
will be here soon.
It's OK honey,
you sit in the corner babbling Latin.
The nice men in white coats
will be here soon.
50
I read flamingbanjo's blog as well and it took me about two seconds to get that it was a joke. And if you need further confirmation, read the comments. Sheesh.
52
According to the LA Times-Washington Post via The Oregonian. The woman is 33 year old Nadya Suleman. Ms. Suleman is divorced. Ms. Suleman her 4 single born children, her 2 year old twins, and the octuplets will be living with her parents.
54
I think this is great. A big happy family that Gay-Americans can point to as a big double standard on the part of Radical Religious Extremists.
Keep those babies coming.
Keep those babies coming.
55
This woman is kinda like a lonely old woman who has a shit load of cats, but she has kids instead.
56
Limiting the number of embryos implanted is a good idea. Unfortunately though, we currently have no idea how to do this. The reproductive system of woman is one of the great mysteries of modern medicine.
57
Maybe all gazillion of her babies will grow up happy and adjusted and not become bitter, angry old hacks who hate religion but cannot find enough ways to suppolrt creepy old politicians who groom teenagers for sex the moment they become statutorily legal. You can call me a dreamer.
58
And now for the latest breaking news: In an interview from her hospital bed, this dingbat wants Oprah to give her $2 million so that she can start her own TV show as an "expert on raising children."
Yep, nuttier than a fruitcake, alright.
Yep, nuttier than a fruitcake, alright.
59
I just read all these comments and now feel like I just HAD 8 babies myself..there is no one else to blame but her doctors they acted like a 16 year old
60
@57 You are always on about this "grooming teenagers for sex" thing, and I find it a bit obsessive and creepy.
61
@ 60,
Whenever "grooming" is mentioned I think of chimps picking nits off of each other. Put in a sentence with "...for sex" and you have a seriously "ewwww" visualization going on.
Whenever "grooming" is mentioned I think of chimps picking nits off of each other. Put in a sentence with "...for sex" and you have a seriously "ewwww" visualization going on.
63
This is absurd. With a reasonable expectation of society providing for your children comes a reasonable expectation from society that your breeding decisions will be beneficial to society. The social contract has been broken.
64
Well, apparently even her family think she's crazy. Very crazy.
And she went on public assistance when she first started popping 'em out....
And she went on public assistance when she first started popping 'em out....
66
She needs to move to FRANCE or ITALY or JAPAN where low birthrates mean she would be a national hero and ALL expenses of the care, nurturing, feeding and education would be provided in generous measure.
Never have I read more ignorant comment on any topic than this blog. Barren and sterile bodies and thinking - wow, no wonder here is a divide in society.
I come from a circle of adopted and natural kids in a great loving and good home, ten of us. All have done well, we were loved and there were values and good parenting and dedication to education.
I suspect most of the bizzarro posters here are sulking only children whose world view has been warped forever.
By the way, reproductive freedom is the FIRST freedom in a free country. Gag on it goons.
This woman's right to choose how to use her body is linked to your right to put a cock in your mouth without getting shot or hanged for perversions.
And I doubt she wanted this many children, but, they are here and it is history. This saga will be documented and part of medical history after the barren posters here are forgotten dust. Interesting.
Never have I read more ignorant comment on any topic than this blog. Barren and sterile bodies and thinking - wow, no wonder here is a divide in society.
I come from a circle of adopted and natural kids in a great loving and good home, ten of us. All have done well, we were loved and there were values and good parenting and dedication to education.
I suspect most of the bizzarro posters here are sulking only children whose world view has been warped forever.
By the way, reproductive freedom is the FIRST freedom in a free country. Gag on it goons.
This woman's right to choose how to use her body is linked to your right to put a cock in your mouth without getting shot or hanged for perversions.
And I doubt she wanted this many children, but, they are here and it is history. This saga will be documented and part of medical history after the barren posters here are forgotten dust. Interesting.
67
66
Big families are great if you can take care of them.
These kids will be on the taxpayer tab and that is WRONG.
Big families are great if you can take care of them.
These kids will be on the taxpayer tab and that is WRONG.
69
Fail.
If you're so concerned with reproductive choice, you'd recognize the right of parents to only have one child. What's the matter? Were your parents understandably incapable loving all their ten children?
I suspect most of the bizzarro posters here are sulking only children whose world view has been warped forever.
Fail.
If you're so concerned with reproductive choice, you'd recognize the right of parents to only have one child. What's the matter? Were your parents understandably incapable loving all their ten children?
70
I have twins, so I am always interested in multiple birth stories. My first impression was that the grandmother was mistaken. My thought was that Nadya (the mom) did not have in vitro fertilization, but rather ovarian stimulation with drugs and intrauterine insemination. This is the more likely scenario leading to high order multiples. Plus I can't believe that there is a single fertility doctor in the US that would implant that many embryos.
However, she might have gone to Mexico to have the IVF done. The grandmother also suggested that the doctor actually put less than eight embryos back, but that several of them split. This would result in a combination of identicals and fraternals among the octuplets.
If it does turn out it was a US doctor who transferred such a large number of embryos, he/she should lose his/her medical license.
However, she might have gone to Mexico to have the IVF done. The grandmother also suggested that the doctor actually put less than eight embryos back, but that several of them split. This would result in a combination of identicals and fraternals among the octuplets.
If it does turn out it was a US doctor who transferred such a large number of embryos, he/she should lose his/her medical license.
71
#69
Ah, the personal attack, always.
Good luck with that as life strategy.
Choices = Freedom. Seems simple to me. Even if the choices would not be what I might choose.
Take your Stalinism else.
Ah, the personal attack, always.
Good luck with that as life strategy.
Choices = Freedom. Seems simple to me. Even if the choices would not be what I might choose.
Take your Stalinism else.
72
Having a ton of children is pretty irresponsible, environmentally and socially. But, it's that "whatever I want at the expense of everyone else" mentality kicking in. We all shoulder some financial burden for the children in our society, even if the parents aren't on welfare.
76
I think it's great when parents decide they have enough stability, love & resources to offer a child. Unfortunately this is clearly not the case here. Many people don't think before having kids..they want their family name passed on; their folks expect them to have kids; their friends have kids. But I think becoming a parent, since it completely rearranges your priorities & changes you life, should be thought out much more seriously. Instead of, I can't wait to hold that cute baby, ask yourself; am I up to regularly being deprived of sleep? Can I budget about $200K over more over the new 18 years to raise this child to healthy adulthood? Do I have a partner to help when things are stressful & will my job allow me to properly care for my child?
I bet if people were more honest about the answers to these questions we'd have a moment of population slowdown. I know this sounds like total facism, but you have to get a license to own a gun or drive a car - but any schmuck can be a parent. You should have to pass a test. Adoptive parents get screened out the wazzoo. Not so bio-parents.
This is sick & wrong. This woman's not a hero, she's a mental patient. Or should be.
I bet if people were more honest about the answers to these questions we'd have a moment of population slowdown. I know this sounds like total facism, but you have to get a license to own a gun or drive a car - but any schmuck can be a parent. You should have to pass a test. Adoptive parents get screened out the wazzoo. Not so bio-parents.
This is sick & wrong. This woman's not a hero, she's a mental patient. Or should be.
77
Anyone who would defend a woman's "right" to pop out 14 kids when she's on the dole is either a nut case or a troll. Or both. Ignore him and he'll go away.
78
I'm still waiting for Maggie Gallagher to weigh on on the octupulets on her MarriageDebate blog. One of her buds has criticized this case in the context of "what is wrong with Artificial Reproductive Technology."
http://jennifer-roback-morse.blogspot.co…
http://jennifer-roback-morse.blogspot.co…
79
To Dan's original point: fundies aren't screaming about a single mother because that's over. Remember Murphy Brown? They've put that ax down, which just goes to show that they can be worn down over time. Gay marriage is the next to go, mark it down.
Although, either way, this woman is a total asshole.
Although, either way, this woman is a total asshole.
81
#76
Get a grip - the population slow down is happening before your eyes, country after country is in negative population growth.
France, Italy, Japan, Russia - a very long list. Simple math, two kids to replace parents - hence - small families of the modern era gives us negative population growth.
And you are so scared over the tidal wave of births in brown and black communities?
Immigration is a bigger factor of population grownth in many countries than rising birth rates of the locals.
Not a nut, just believe that reproductive choice means I have no say over a woman's body.
A lot of the posters here sound like the anit abortion Nazi messages. CONTROL those people, legislate a woman's choices, make them follow my rules my idea of a family.
Sickening. And most of you have NO children. Big time experts on everything outside your own experience.
Goons.
Get a grip - the population slow down is happening before your eyes, country after country is in negative population growth.
France, Italy, Japan, Russia - a very long list. Simple math, two kids to replace parents - hence - small families of the modern era gives us negative population growth.
And you are so scared over the tidal wave of births in brown and black communities?
Immigration is a bigger factor of population grownth in many countries than rising birth rates of the locals.
Not a nut, just believe that reproductive choice means I have no say over a woman's body.
A lot of the posters here sound like the anit abortion Nazi messages. CONTROL those people, legislate a woman's choices, make them follow my rules my idea of a family.
Sickening. And most of you have NO children. Big time experts on everything outside your own experience.
Goons.
82
81
Chill
I have three children, all by IVF.
What this woman (and her doctors) have done is immoral.
There is a lot more to parenting than pushing babies out of your ass.
Chill
I have three children, all by IVF.
What this woman (and her doctors) have done is immoral.
There is a lot more to parenting than pushing babies out of your ass.
83
I get steaming mad when I see all of the glory that women receive for popping out litters. Little focus is given to the fact that the children usually suffer long term health consequences and developmental disabilities. It is not a right to life issue as if we just left it up to God then these folks wouldn't have babies anyways. Anybody that supports this idiocy should be the ones footing the bill for it. I find it selfish and unfair to the children and society that people with hero complexes gratify themselves by popping out litters. The failed cases, of which I am sure there are many, are not given nearly the same amount of attention. The long term consequences of these people's decisions and behavior are not focused on so much as "the wow isn't it neat these people popped out a lot of babies" factor that seems to sell lots of publications. Sensationalism at it's worst. Maybe papers should start covering the negative consequences of such actions before more ignorant fundamentalists try it and people our country with disabled citizens that will require life long care. The hypocrisy sickens me. Instead of making more and more babies(that God doesn't want)why not just back up their anti abortion, pro lifes stances and actually adopt children that need homes! I applaud the gay community for their interest in adoption over unnatural procreation strategies. Wish the idiot breeders would follow suit!
84
Oh, and the high falutin' doctors that performed these procedures should be liable for the care and feeding of all these babies for the rest of their lives before they end up on society's welfare rolls. It would have been impossible without the doctor's participation and the mother's willingness: they are now the two responsible parties for the wellbeing and care of the kids as it was their joint decision to make it happen!
85
#82
Thanks. I will chill, but, this irrational attack on this women makes my blood boil.
Slog has become the home of the anal retentive know it alls.
And most, know little.
Who can tell how the kids will be raised, what resources will be there to help? And the why of 8 is yet un answered.
I love kids too, would not consider a family of this size, but, sure don't think such fascist venom is in line. Some of these comments sound like Nazi comments about Jewish families.
Thanks. I will chill, but, this irrational attack on this women makes my blood boil.
Slog has become the home of the anal retentive know it alls.
And most, know little.
Who can tell how the kids will be raised, what resources will be there to help? And the why of 8 is yet un answered.
I love kids too, would not consider a family of this size, but, sure don't think such fascist venom is in line. Some of these comments sound like Nazi comments about Jewish families.
86
85
You are right in everything you say.
This is just an extreme case, that frankly makes my blood boil.
You are right in everything you say.
This is just an extreme case, that frankly makes my blood boil.
87
@81: Black and brown people having babies - fine. White people having babies - fine. Black and brown people having lots of babies - not fine. White people having lots of babies - not fine. Psychos and morons having lots of babies - not even remotely _close_ to fine.
89
#86
So what is new from right wing creeps who think like you do - of course - you never offer your daughters for sterialization, just brown people.
Go eat shit.
So what is new from right wing creeps who think like you do - of course - you never offer your daughters for sterialization, just brown people.
Go eat shit.
90
This lady is seriously crazy pants. Her parents obviously think so. The woman is obsessed with having babies, not children. She started trying to have them since she was a teenager but was prevented because her fallopian tubes were blocked. She had IVF and had 6 kids between the ages of 6 and 2 years old. From various news sources the grandparents comments indicate that she was in over her head with the first 6 kids. She could not afford them or handle them and they (the grandparents) were advised by a psychiatrist to kick her and the children out of their house so as to stop enabling her baby addiction. The parents didn't want to put the grandchildren out, so they let their daughter and her brood stay...and then she stuffed her uterus with SEVEN more embryos! The grandmother said she warned her daughter that when she gets home from the hospital, "I'm going to be gone."
This woman DOES. NOT. LOVE. CHILDREN! She is obsessed with babies and when they are no longer little and cute she dumps them on her parents (and I suspect in future foster care)! She's ecstatic now about the octuplets (now that she's the center of attention), but as soon as they're no longer little and cute (when their birth defects become more apparent) she'll dump them. Just as she's dumped the others....and I'm sure she'll find a way to get pregnant again.
p.s. A baby as pre-mature and low birth weight as these will cost about a million dollars each just for delivery. With a minimum cost of $11,000 dollars each (multiplied by 14). Some will be profoundly damaged, they will need constant care and medical attention. Meaning more $$$$ (I'll give you an example, Cerebral Palsy, which some or all will surely have, costs $100,000 per year to age 20, and approx $200,000 per year after that). They may need tutors and eventually catch up to their peers or they may never be able to live independently.
Sure she can have a large family, but she can support them herself and not put them at risk for permanent disability or death...or in the case of her older children, neglect.
p.s. She did this so she could be a TV star and make millions.
So tell me again how this is a woman's right to choose? How we shouldn't judge her?
More...
This woman DOES. NOT. LOVE. CHILDREN! She is obsessed with babies and when they are no longer little and cute she dumps them on her parents (and I suspect in future foster care)! She's ecstatic now about the octuplets (now that she's the center of attention), but as soon as they're no longer little and cute (when their birth defects become more apparent) she'll dump them. Just as she's dumped the others....and I'm sure she'll find a way to get pregnant again.
p.s. A baby as pre-mature and low birth weight as these will cost about a million dollars each just for delivery. With a minimum cost of $11,000 dollars each (multiplied by 14). Some will be profoundly damaged, they will need constant care and medical attention. Meaning more $$$$ (I'll give you an example, Cerebral Palsy, which some or all will surely have, costs $100,000 per year to age 20, and approx $200,000 per year after that). They may need tutors and eventually catch up to their peers or they may never be able to live independently.
Sure she can have a large family, but she can support them herself and not put them at risk for permanent disability or death...or in the case of her older children, neglect.
p.s. She did this so she could be a TV star and make millions.
So tell me again how this is a woman's right to choose? How we shouldn't judge her?
91
#90
Having such an upbeat view of things - please never conceive.
The babies have been born, the world still turns, all the advice in the world changes nothing, just make sure you do not get preganat which means one less potential problem. You agree that we will all be busy dealing with the current batch.
Weird people. How about some fund raising for the kids?
Having such an upbeat view of things - please never conceive.
The babies have been born, the world still turns, all the advice in the world changes nothing, just make sure you do not get preganat which means one less potential problem. You agree that we will all be busy dealing with the current batch.
Weird people. How about some fund raising for the kids?
93
shows the fallacy of the 'right to choose'...
what the fuck are social services for if not these cases. she's taking too much? That's what social programs do to people, enable this behavior.
what the fuck are social services for if not these cases. she's taking too much? That's what social programs do to people, enable this behavior.
94
The mother of the world's longest-living octuplets is being deluged with offers for book deals, TV shows and other business proposals, but has not decided what she might do other than care for her children.
Now all the liberals can recant because the births have been legitimized by money.
Now all the liberals can recant because the births have been legitimized by money.
95
uh, yeah dan. women *never* get shit for what we do with our bodies. good thing you pointed that out! 'cause i'm sure she's not getting shit from, well, every fucking body with a useless opinion. which is everyone who has an opinion about her procreative life except for her - and whoever she's procreating with.
it is, really and truly, nobody's damn business how many kids she has or how married she is.
it is, really and truly, nobody's damn business how many kids she has or how married she is.
96
95
It is the business of everybody paying to raise her puppy litter; that would be us, the taxpayers.
It is the business of everybody paying to raise her puppy litter; that would be us, the taxpayers.
97
@96,
Agree. It is our business whether its 14 children or 1 child:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/lo…
I mention this article from yesterday because she is 14 y/o and pregnant and he is 16 y/o and the declared father. It is highly likely he won't stick around and she will carry on the generational slide into welfare dependency. I too tire of the media's "feel good" take on both of these situations. Both situations are unfortunate.
Agree. It is our business whether its 14 children or 1 child:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/lo…
I mention this article from yesterday because she is 14 y/o and pregnant and he is 16 y/o and the declared father. It is highly likely he won't stick around and she will carry on the generational slide into welfare dependency. I too tire of the media's "feel good" take on both of these situations. Both situations are unfortunate.
98
Allow me to wax Solomonic here: why can't we all just split the baby (or babies, as the case may be)? Some valid points are being made throughout the spectrum, and I suspect, as always, that the truth is somewhere in the center (buried in all the detritus of extreme, unwarranted personal attacks, speculation about people's psychological backgrounds, and of course, the inevitable Nazi comparisons).
Should the government regulate the number of children one is allowed to bear? HELL, NO. One's reproductive system should almost never be subject to government regulation - not only because it's intimate and personal, but because such laws are subject to manipulation, distortion, and abuse for very ugly purposes indeed. (Those who worry about the *possibility* of racist uses for such laws are correct to bear the RISK in mind, which, of course, is a whole different matter from twisting a specific individual's words to accuse him or her of racism).
Really, most of us who question the wisdom of the mother's decision aren't interested in shoving legislation up her uterus. We only want to have a national discussion as to whether such accelerated childbearing is a "good idea", if you will - what its benefits and detriments are for the wider society. We're just trying to talk through the consequences... not impose laws on people. And the fact of the matter is, one doesn't have to be racist, or anti-family, or against government action for the public good, in order to believe that it might not be such a good idea for any person, of any age, of any color, on any planet, to attempt to raise FOURTEEN KIDS, especially a person who's single and thus lacks the significant assistance a husband / wife / domestic partner can provide. Most of us aren't interested in judging the mother; we're only trying to work through the broader social implications when someone tries to write a check that takes more than one ass to cash. There are broader consequences to individual behavior, consequences that - if not to be legislated against - need to at least be discussed, so that we can at least encourage one another to choose positive behaviors for ourselves.
Even as a single person childless by choice, I do not at all mind paying for maternity departments in public hospitals, for public education, etc. We're a pluralistic, civilized society, not a collection of hunter-gatherers living under the do-for-yourself law of the jungle, and I accept that sometimes I might have to pay my share of things that don't benefit me directly, because they benefit other individuals and ultimately society as a whole. But it doesn't make one heartless to suggest that there be some reasonable limits to this principle - especially when these "limits" aren't to be enforced by law, but only encouraged by the relatively passive means of discussion and non-binding social norms.
More...
Should the government regulate the number of children one is allowed to bear? HELL, NO. One's reproductive system should almost never be subject to government regulation - not only because it's intimate and personal, but because such laws are subject to manipulation, distortion, and abuse for very ugly purposes indeed. (Those who worry about the *possibility* of racist uses for such laws are correct to bear the RISK in mind, which, of course, is a whole different matter from twisting a specific individual's words to accuse him or her of racism).
Really, most of us who question the wisdom of the mother's decision aren't interested in shoving legislation up her uterus. We only want to have a national discussion as to whether such accelerated childbearing is a "good idea", if you will - what its benefits and detriments are for the wider society. We're just trying to talk through the consequences... not impose laws on people. And the fact of the matter is, one doesn't have to be racist, or anti-family, or against government action for the public good, in order to believe that it might not be such a good idea for any person, of any age, of any color, on any planet, to attempt to raise FOURTEEN KIDS, especially a person who's single and thus lacks the significant assistance a husband / wife / domestic partner can provide. Most of us aren't interested in judging the mother; we're only trying to work through the broader social implications when someone tries to write a check that takes more than one ass to cash. There are broader consequences to individual behavior, consequences that - if not to be legislated against - need to at least be discussed, so that we can at least encourage one another to choose positive behaviors for ourselves.
Even as a single person childless by choice, I do not at all mind paying for maternity departments in public hospitals, for public education, etc. We're a pluralistic, civilized society, not a collection of hunter-gatherers living under the do-for-yourself law of the jungle, and I accept that sometimes I might have to pay my share of things that don't benefit me directly, because they benefit other individuals and ultimately society as a whole. But it doesn't make one heartless to suggest that there be some reasonable limits to this principle - especially when these "limits" aren't to be enforced by law, but only encouraged by the relatively passive means of discussion and non-binding social norms.
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