Find Your Valentine
Slog
News & ArtsFriday, January 30, 2009
City Context; Or: Let's Pass the 3175 Budget!
Posted by Erica C. Barnett on Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 10:36 AM
Apropos of last night's school closure news, here's a helpful graph showing the difference between the savings that will be accomplished by shuttering five schools, and the amount the state legislature is prepared to spend to build a tunnel bypass to replace the viaduct:
Via Sightline's Clark Williams-Derry, who writes:
Sure, "$3.6 million" and "$4.2 billion" may sound similar. But they're completely different. A billion isn't just more than a million — it's a LOT more.In fact, the money we're planning on spending on the Viaduct would keep those 5 schools open until...wait for it...the year 3175.
Or, looking backwards, the cost of the Viaduct could have kept those 5 schools open from the year 842 until today. (Wikipedia tells me that the year 842 was when Charles the Bald married Ermentrude, and that the Uyghurs left the Mongolian plain. The fact that these events mean nothing to me shows just how long ago 842 was.)
Obviously this is a contrived way of looking at things: it's not an apples to apples comparison, it's not inflation adjusted, the state constitution prohibits gas tax money from paying for schools, yada yada yada.
Still, I think that the comparison points to the absurdity of our priorities. When it comes to roads, we're spendthrifts — we're happy to cough up a few billion for a couple miles of pavement. But for schoolkids, we're skinflints — we look for ways to pinch pennies, even if it means turmoil and upheaval for students and their families.
1
this isn't context at all. this is just more garbage economics.
how about comparing the cost per user? how many individual drivers use the viaduct annually vs. number of students.
or transportation budget vs. education budget divided by population?
you are an idiot for thinking this means ANYTHING.
how about comparing the cost per user? how many individual drivers use the viaduct annually vs. number of students.
or transportation budget vs. education budget divided by population?
you are an idiot for thinking this means ANYTHING.
2
What's more important, cars or kids? Obviously the state thinks cars are more important. On the other hand, I see many, many parents driving their kids to school everyday, so I guess parents think cars are important, too.
3
I find it appalling that one hasn't suggested to increase to funding to schools by increasing taxes that fund schools. The apples to oranges comparison here is obvious and stupid.
4
@2 how much does the state spend on transportation per resident vs. how much does the state spend on schools per resident or per student?
Do you know?
Wouldn't that be much more insightful than this goofy chart?
This chart doesn't say anything. Some of us already understood millions vs. billions.
Do you know?
Wouldn't that be much more insightful than this goofy chart?
This chart doesn't say anything. Some of us already understood millions vs. billions.
6
Yeah, this isn't really context--there's no per-user comparison, the functions are completely different, and it doesn't take into account inflation on the cost of keeping the schools open, either (among many other things).
And for chrissakes, closing a few school **buildings** is not the end of the damn world, people! The kids will be going to other existing school buildings, making those schools a more efficient use of the SPS budget. It's not like these kids are going to be out on the streets.
And for chrissakes, closing a few school **buildings** is not the end of the damn world, people! The kids will be going to other existing school buildings, making those schools a more efficient use of the SPS budget. It's not like these kids are going to be out on the streets.
7
@7 ECB I'm seriously impressed you still have a job in this current economic downturn.
You better watch your back a bit closer given all the (more) highly qualifed media types that will soon be looking for a job.
I simply can't believe that the Stranger can't find better talent than you.
You must suck a mean dick, and Dan Savage must be getting daily gratification from it.
You better watch your back a bit closer given all the (more) highly qualifed media types that will soon be looking for a job.
I simply can't believe that the Stranger can't find better talent than you.
You must suck a mean dick, and Dan Savage must be getting daily gratification from it.
8
And for chrissakes, closing a few miles of highway is not the end of the damn world, people! The cars will be going to other existing highways, making those highways a more efficient use of the SDOT budget. It's not like these cars are going to be out forced to fly.
And for chrissakes, closing a few school **buildings** is not the end of the damn world, people! The kids will be going to other existing school buildings, making those schools a more efficient use of the SPS budget. It's not like these kids are going to be out on the streets.
And for chrissakes, closing a few miles of highway is not the end of the damn world, people! The cars will be going to other existing highways, making those highways a more efficient use of the SDOT budget. It's not like these cars are going to be out forced to fly.
10
Wooo, the ECB trolls are out in FORCE this AM! Seriously people, it is a VERY apt comparison. I can't believe you fuckers put so much importance -- 1000x more importance -- on shaving a few minutes off your commute instead of on educating children.
11
Isn't it obvious to everyone that Seattle is not a family friendly city in this state? Anyone living in King County that has school aged children should move to the exurbs somewhere if they really intend on finding a decent education for their kids.
Anyone who believes that a Seattle schools education is comparable to any other district in the county is seriously full of shit. Completely and wholly.
This just further proves that the density that is constatnly touted here as being good for Seattle is also shit. Don't believe your own fairy tale stories about Seattle becoming an urban utopia for families once it becomes more dense.
There is no way any rational family would buy into that fallacy folks.
And it is just another reason that more dense will not work in Seattle the way that ECB thinks it will.
And anyone who thinks the suburbs will die soon? Right. All one needs to do is to look at a story like this to understand why White Flight will continue strenghtening those little green utopias with backyards into the next century.
Anyone who believes that a Seattle schools education is comparable to any other district in the county is seriously full of shit. Completely and wholly.
This just further proves that the density that is constatnly touted here as being good for Seattle is also shit. Don't believe your own fairy tale stories about Seattle becoming an urban utopia for families once it becomes more dense.
There is no way any rational family would buy into that fallacy folks.
And it is just another reason that more dense will not work in Seattle the way that ECB thinks it will.
And anyone who thinks the suburbs will die soon? Right. All one needs to do is to look at a story like this to understand why White Flight will continue strenghtening those little green utopias with backyards into the next century.
12
The difference is that schools all over the state will continue to fight for funding, face budget shortfalls and cuts, and be blamed when they can't make the dollars stretch as far as they did 10 years before, and we will still find billions of dollars to pay for stadiums and freeways in order to benefit a small part of our state's population. It's not an apples to apples comparison, but what is? Child Protective Services and schools? Bridges and the National Guard? The viaduct and avalanche control? We have consistently sacrificed funding for social programs and now we're at the point that there is nothing left to cut. They are being eliminated - school closures in Seattle are just the beginning.
13
@10, It's because the comparison is a stupid false dichotomy, the comparison doesn't make sense when you realize where funding comes from for both programs, and because this is ECB's modus...
If you don't want people to troll ECB maybe you can pull your tongue out of her asshole long enough to think about how poorly formed her arguments are.
If you don't want people to troll ECB maybe you can pull your tongue out of her asshole long enough to think about how poorly formed her arguments are.
15
@13,
Right. Suggesting that ECB only has her job by servicing her male employers is so fucking appropriate.
And how the fuck does ECB "patronize" women? Buy a dictionary, shithead.
Right. Suggesting that ECB only has her job by servicing her male employers is so fucking appropriate.
And how the fuck does ECB "patronize" women? Buy a dictionary, shithead.
16
@13, I'd be very happy to put my tongue anywhere on ECB if she'd enjoy it, including her asshole. /shrug. she's cute.
17
@8, nice try. I'm not the hugest fan of this tunnel thing, but why don't you go right ahead and set up that straw man. The two are completely different, and serve completely different purposes.
There are a whole lot of schools with low enrollment that can reasonably be expected to pool resources to IMPROVE what is available to those students. Having a kid go to a school to combine and pool resources just makes sense. You can't exactly do that with the overcrowded freeways, lack of transit options, and a huge port/waterfront that can barely function as it is. Add to that the whole potential viaduct collapsing and killing a bunch of people, and you have a no-brainer. These school building closures are not going to kill anyone, and might just help the students the Seattle Public Schools serve.
At any rate, I went to 5 different schools from K-12--one change was caused by a school closing, and I gotta say that it was NOT a huge deal to switch schools. At all. Especially when a whole bunch of your friends from the old school are coming with you.
Also, I love ECB, and think she's adorable. I even often agree with her.
There are a whole lot of schools with low enrollment that can reasonably be expected to pool resources to IMPROVE what is available to those students. Having a kid go to a school to combine and pool resources just makes sense. You can't exactly do that with the overcrowded freeways, lack of transit options, and a huge port/waterfront that can barely function as it is. Add to that the whole potential viaduct collapsing and killing a bunch of people, and you have a no-brainer. These school building closures are not going to kill anyone, and might just help the students the Seattle Public Schools serve.
At any rate, I went to 5 different schools from K-12--one change was caused by a school closing, and I gotta say that it was NOT a huge deal to switch schools. At all. Especially when a whole bunch of your friends from the old school are coming with you.
Also, I love ECB, and think she's adorable. I even often agree with her.
20
@15,
Where did I or anyone suggest that she only has job by servicing her male co-workers?
Are you misreading things per usual?
Where did I or anyone suggest that she only has job by servicing her male co-workers?
Are you misreading things per usual?
23
Uh, Erica linked and quoted the post and graph by a man with a degree from Yale in mathematics. Please learn how the Internet works and what context means before you try to brag about how you're smarter than anyone.
The ridiculous sexism on Slog is so tiresome. At least Issur and Ecce Homo were entertaining.
Thank you for the post, Erica.
Erica posted this. Obviously women can only understand numerical comparison by visual prop.
Uh, Erica linked and quoted the post and graph by a man with a degree from Yale in mathematics. Please learn how the Internet works and what context means before you try to brag about how you're smarter than anyone.
The ridiculous sexism on Slog is so tiresome. At least Issur and Ecce Homo were entertaining.
Thank you for the post, Erica.
25
@1 and @ the majority of above comments
Really? Are you really gonna get all "per user" on this? You have undoubtedly taken this economic discussion to a innovative though precedented level of analysis. Lets apply some more analytical devices that might inform this discussion as well - incentives and market forces! I know, I know, it is comparing "apples to oranges" but lets give it a shot:
You make the roads bigger and better and faster and suddenly the relative cost of traveling by car is favored. More time and cost efficient = more cars on road. It does not matter that this will by some freak product of cause and effect result in greater dangers to bikers out there for they too will now be driving cars. The decreased relative cost of driving will increase car sales, and decrease grants for sustainable energy research. Suburbs will be more relatively more desirable and suburban sprawl will be fortified.
However, say our priorities do not lay in the future of a utopic, suburban, get-back-to-nature lifestyle. Maybe funding things like education could be considered as an alternative (we are now replacing the viaduct with a sweet little bike path and park). Incentives include: smaller, more intimate schools that attract teachers and cultivate community-minded cultures. Smarter kids are less likely to slash my tires, or mug my friends or beat them with skateboards (replace the viaduct with the worlds biggest skate park!) Plus they will come back to our lovely city in droves, with their higher paying jobs, and contribute more to taxes which can then be put to funding...well, viaducts if our priorities really change.
Okay, I got things to do. Sorry for wasting anybody's time.
Really? Are you really gonna get all "per user" on this? You have undoubtedly taken this economic discussion to a innovative though precedented level of analysis. Lets apply some more analytical devices that might inform this discussion as well - incentives and market forces! I know, I know, it is comparing "apples to oranges" but lets give it a shot:
You make the roads bigger and better and faster and suddenly the relative cost of traveling by car is favored. More time and cost efficient = more cars on road. It does not matter that this will by some freak product of cause and effect result in greater dangers to bikers out there for they too will now be driving cars. The decreased relative cost of driving will increase car sales, and decrease grants for sustainable energy research. Suburbs will be more relatively more desirable and suburban sprawl will be fortified.
However, say our priorities do not lay in the future of a utopic, suburban, get-back-to-nature lifestyle. Maybe funding things like education could be considered as an alternative (we are now replacing the viaduct with a sweet little bike path and park). Incentives include: smaller, more intimate schools that attract teachers and cultivate community-minded cultures. Smarter kids are less likely to slash my tires, or mug my friends or beat them with skateboards (replace the viaduct with the worlds biggest skate park!) Plus they will come back to our lovely city in droves, with their higher paying jobs, and contribute more to taxes which can then be put to funding...well, viaducts if our priorities really change.
Okay, I got things to do. Sorry for wasting anybody's time.
26
@23,
Re-read what you just posted.
It confirms the hypothesis that Erica understood the disparity better when it was presented, by a man, in the form of a bar graph. Giddy with her new found knowledge she felt it necessary to relate this in the exact same manner as she received it.
This also brings up another point; ECB copy/pastes many of her Slog "contributions" with minimal commentary. It would be way more effective to have ECB make a post consisting of all the articles she intends to quote and link directly and put it in one post with the quotes after a jump.
This leads me to another area where ECB fails in posting. She doesn't know how, or is oblivious to using the jump to break up her posts. It insults both the reader and her coworkers who are competing for space on Slog to post their material. Is this part of her narcissism?
How else do you explain her posting of personal feuds with other local media personalities? Is she really so head over heels in love with herself that she could fathom that only she finds her beef with Joel Connelly anything but a tiresome exercise in oneupmanship?
Re-read what you just posted.
It confirms the hypothesis that Erica understood the disparity better when it was presented, by a man, in the form of a bar graph. Giddy with her new found knowledge she felt it necessary to relate this in the exact same manner as she received it.
This also brings up another point; ECB copy/pastes many of her Slog "contributions" with minimal commentary. It would be way more effective to have ECB make a post consisting of all the articles she intends to quote and link directly and put it in one post with the quotes after a jump.
This leads me to another area where ECB fails in posting. She doesn't know how, or is oblivious to using the jump to break up her posts. It insults both the reader and her coworkers who are competing for space on Slog to post their material. Is this part of her narcissism?
How else do you explain her posting of personal feuds with other local media personalities? Is she really so head over heels in love with herself that she could fathom that only she finds her beef with Joel Connelly anything but a tiresome exercise in oneupmanship?
27
@26, I'm pretty sure that ECB would get trolls even if she posted a Lindy- or Megan-esque picture of cute puppies. I agree that it's not exactly cool to air her personal grievances about other local journalists, but it's not like Dan and other sloggers have not made numerous posts on "fucking credulous hacks", or offered snippets of other articles without comment (Mudede?!?), and so on.
She isn't perfect, of course, but it does seem that she is held to a much stricter standard than any other Slogger.
She isn't perfect, of course, but it does seem that she is held to a much stricter standard than any other Slogger.
28
Blah blah blah #26. We understand. A man writes and posts a graph, he's just being a smart math whiz. A woman points it out, she just doesn't understand real math. The male Slog posters don't follow your blog rules about commentary and jumps, no comment. Erica does it, she's a dumb woman. Erica criticizes other local writers, she's a bitch. Dan or Schmader do it, they're strong men. We all get how sexist douchebags work, we just wish they would just stay on the Rush Limbaugh fan sites.
29
@27 In the cases where other Slog contributers do stupid shit, the community takes them to the mat on it too. Refer back to the posts in question and you'll see that people called the writers on it.
The inanity here is the belief that she is held to a higher standard (which isn't true if you observed the shit that flied at other writers. Golob gets it from libertarians and free marketers, Lindy from people that can't stand her "I'm a wacky wildcard" persona, Mudede from people that think he's the lowest common denominator maleness and of psuedo intellectual babble, Paul from people that are just assholes, etc etc). She just posts more awful stuff than anyone else.
The inanity here is the belief that she is held to a higher standard (which isn't true if you observed the shit that flied at other writers. Golob gets it from libertarians and free marketers, Lindy from people that can't stand her "I'm a wacky wildcard" persona, Mudede from people that think he's the lowest common denominator maleness and of psuedo intellectual babble, Paul from people that are just assholes, etc etc). She just posts more awful stuff than anyone else.
31
A woman points it out and pats herself on the back.
The male commentators don't use jumps and post just quotes and do get taken to the mat for it.
Erica criticizes other local journalists and she's not a bitch or anything that has to do with her gender. Eli did it and was called out on it. Dan did it and was called out on it. In every case it was about how much better they are than what they criticized, as if people besides themselves really cared. Your selective memory baffles me. Why do you choose to remember events in a way that makes ECB seem like she is merely a victim of sexism? What do you and ECB gain in that?
The male commentators don't use jumps and post just quotes and do get taken to the mat for it.
Erica criticizes other local journalists and she's not a bitch or anything that has to do with her gender. Eli did it and was called out on it. Dan did it and was called out on it. In every case it was about how much better they are than what they criticized, as if people besides themselves really cared. Your selective memory baffles me. Why do you choose to remember events in a way that makes ECB seem like she is merely a victim of sexism? What do you and ECB gain in that?
33
I usually don't mind (and sometimes even defend) ECB's posts, but this is total bullshit. You wouldn't be drawing this comparison if your precious surface-only option had been chosen, which would still cost upwards of $1 billion (which, if you want to sensationalize it, is *completely different* than $1 million and would keep those 5 schools open until 2286). The fact is that the AWV is a major conduit for the ports and also a huge safety risk, which means we need to replace it ASAP with something of equal or greater capacity. Closing a few schools isn't going to kill anyone, but the viaduct might. Especially if we choose to keep debating what to do for another 20 years.
I expect this kind of armchair economist hyperbole from the PI or the Times, but not The Stranger. For shame.
I expect this kind of armchair economist hyperbole from the PI or the Times, but not The Stranger. For shame.
34
Much of the viaduct funding will come from vehicle related taxes which according to the state consistution can't be used for non transportation related measures.
What we need is another amendment which prohibits general fund money from going to roads. Then fair would be fair. Drivers and downstream beneficiaries would pay for the roads they use, and more general fund money would be available for schools and such.
What we need is another amendment which prohibits general fund money from going to roads. Then fair would be fair. Drivers and downstream beneficiaries would pay for the roads they use, and more general fund money would be available for schools and such.
35
Can we please get back to discussing licking various parts of Erica? All this other talk is distracting me from my fantasy.
36
@20,
You're defending the sexist comments against her by saying she's asking for it. One of those sexist comments @7 claims that she only has her job by performing sexual favors. You are full of shit, per usual, and you still need to buy a fucking dictionary, you fucking moron.
You're defending the sexist comments against her by saying she's asking for it. One of those sexist comments @7 claims that she only has her job by performing sexual favors. You are full of shit, per usual, and you still need to buy a fucking dictionary, you fucking moron.
37
Go Erica.
Different pots of money? That is an argument only a politician could love. All those pots are filled from the same source -- taxpayers.
Different pots of money? That is an argument only a politician could love. All those pots are filled from the same source -- taxpayers.
38
Hooray for random Sloggy anger! Keep it up!
Let's compare pit bulls with balls vs. Sarah Palin. Who costs the taxpayers more?
Let's compare pit bulls with balls vs. Sarah Palin. Who costs the taxpayers more?
39
the last story in one of the dailies said that the legislature isn't likely to allow the MVET, certainly not without a vote, and they are very wary of cost overruns on a tunnel.
40
Oh, Seattle. Always comparing one project in terms of another. I think you have no concept of how finance works. They're not taking money away from schools to build the viaduct (or anything else). If they're going to build something, they raise the money to build it. If you want more money for schools, get a fucking referendum on the ballot. But don't vote against building something just because you want more money for schools. That's retarded. It's this "think of the children," the-budget-is-a-pizza mentality that gets nothing built (or done) at all.
41
I don't live in Seattle but from what I've read here and elsewhere the vaiduct needs to be replaced before it falls over. A better comparison would be the different options for replacement. Seems like a tunnel is about the most expensive option.
I think Erica's comparison is apt though. I'm not going to say we should give up our roads but I'll gladly give up a lot (defense, foreign aid, Social Security and almost everything else) before I'm ok with cutting school funding. I think that's just about the most important thing our government does and I don't even have kids, and really don't plan on having any. Not that throwing money at schools is necessarily going to fix the problem but I can tell you that cramming more kids into a small space and increasing class sizes certainly isn't going to improve performance.
I think Erica's comparison is apt though. I'm not going to say we should give up our roads but I'll gladly give up a lot (defense, foreign aid, Social Security and almost everything else) before I'm ok with cutting school funding. I think that's just about the most important thing our government does and I don't even have kids, and really don't plan on having any. Not that throwing money at schools is necessarily going to fix the problem but I can tell you that cramming more kids into a small space and increasing class sizes certainly isn't going to improve performance.
42
what is the history of class size - are they really getting bigger?
social security, health care, police, fire are right up there for me.
public schooling didn't really get going until a 150 years ago and it was mostly started to allow both parents to work.
I can tell you that cramming more kids into a small space and increasing class sizes certainly isn't going to improve performance.
what is the history of class size - are they really getting bigger?
social security, health care, police, fire are right up there for me.
public schooling didn't really get going until a 150 years ago and it was mostly started to allow both parents to work.
43
http://www.ofm.wa.gov/budget08/highlight…
2007-2009 budget $24 billion schools - $7 billion transportation at the state level.
2007-2009 budget $24 billion schools - $7 billion transportation at the state level.
44
ECB is one of the best local reporters Seattle has. I don't always agree with her, but I have a lot of respect for her, especially given the amount of shit she takes from the scrotum-sacks who troll slog.
This comparison is meant to illustrate the absurdity of our budget priorities in general, using two specific relevant examples. If you can't see that, you are a fucking moron.
ECB for the win.
This comparison is meant to illustrate the absurdity of our budget priorities in general, using two specific relevant examples. If you can't see that, you are a fucking moron.
ECB for the win.
46
But the viaduct carries TWICE AS MANY PEOPLE AS 45TH!! Don't you get how IMPORTANT, how CRUCIAL this is, that these people drive their cars exactly along this route? Oh, you clueless treehuggers, kids aren't important!
47
@7 etc: ok... I'm not ECB's biggest fan, but seriously people... DAN SAVAGE IS GAY... you can claim that the male staffers got hired for giving head, but I think Erica is immune to that specific criticism.
49
Wow. And I thought YouTube was where all the trolls went to make comments these days.
It's a graph, folks. Take a deep breath and move on.
It's a graph, folks. Take a deep breath and move on.
Advertisement
Most Commented on Slog
-
SL Letter of the Day: Pill The Homos! by Dan Savage
-
Dear Huffington Post... by Dan Savage
-
Because Guns Make Us More Safer by Goldy
-
Slog Bible Study: Deuteronomy 21:10-14 by Goldy
-
The AP Is Reporting That Whitney Houston Is Dead by Paul Constant
-
Because Guns Make Us Safer by Goldy
-
The Rick Santorum Rally in Tacoma Probably Could Have Gone Better by Paul Constant
-
SL Letter of the Day: Daddy Loves Who? by Dan Savage
-
Gay Kids Are Still Killing Themselves by Dan Savage
-
Gregoire: "This is signed!" by Eli Sanders
RSS
Facebook
Twitter
Comments (49) RSS