Find Your Valentine
Slog
News & ArtsMonday, January 26, 2009
Politics Re: Lying About Sex Is Never Okay
Posted by Erica C. Barnett on Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 11:47 AM
Lying about sex: Okay.
Lying to the media during a tense, high-profile campaign for office about sex with a teenager that occurred while you held high public office (and after blasting your opponent for "spreading "unfair stereotypes" about gay men): Not okay.
1
Wrong, Erica.
Your personal life is your personal life. If you're not breaking any laws, it's nobody else's business no matter what your job is.
Your personal life is your personal life. If you're not breaking any laws, it's nobody else's business no matter what your job is.
2
Lying to people who have no business in your personal relationships during your own free time about sex with an adult that occurred in private: Okay.
4
Erica, why is it okay for the media to drag someone's private and legal sex life into the public eye just to sell paper, and boost ratings? I bet if some news organization started questioning your ability as a writer because of your sex life, you'd be evasive, and would probably even lie to keep it private.
Believe it or not, not everything is fair game for the media. If you don't think so, start publishing the details of your sex life to prove that you actually practice what you preach. I bet you won't.
Believe it or not, not everything is fair game for the media. If you don't think so, start publishing the details of your sex life to prove that you actually practice what you preach. I bet you won't.
5
You guys would be supporting a republican politician's right to keep his office had he boned a teenager and lied about it during the campaign, right?
6
You use the word teenager despite the fact he was legally an adult at the time of the sex in question. Is this because you know you're wrong, or you think people are too dumb to agree with you based on the facts?
7
@5: Only if said Republican actively fought against legislation to take private matters (abortion, gay marriage, sodomy) into the realm of public policy.
8
The people don't like being made fools of. Everyone (well, most everyone) understood Clinton lying about Monica - it wasn't illegal, it was none of their business, it was a witch hunt. People will lie to save their marriage. He lost the public when he shook his finger at us and insisted that he had never had sex with that woman, and then we found out that was a lie, shocking in its emphatic bald-facedness.
The parallel here is Adams getting into such a high dudgeon about the accusations during the election - his accuser trading on offensive stereotypes and all. Turns out, Sam Adams IS a fucking offensive stereotype!
The public hates hypocrisy. We need to feel that if we're going to throw our support behind a politician -- and we need to do that, if we're going to participate in our democracy at all -- we can rely on him to be something approaching what he represents himself to be. Now, we see he was just play-acting the whole drama. This is betrayal, and we can parse distinctions about lying and different kinds of lies and privacy and etcetera, but the bottom line is he betrayed the voting public of Portland.
The parallel here is Adams getting into such a high dudgeon about the accusations during the election - his accuser trading on offensive stereotypes and all. Turns out, Sam Adams IS a fucking offensive stereotype!
The public hates hypocrisy. We need to feel that if we're going to throw our support behind a politician -- and we need to do that, if we're going to participate in our democracy at all -- we can rely on him to be something approaching what he represents himself to be. Now, we see he was just play-acting the whole drama. This is betrayal, and we can parse distinctions about lying and different kinds of lies and privacy and etcetera, but the bottom line is he betrayed the voting public of Portland.
9
He could have said no comment, he could have told inquisitors that his private life was that: private.
But he didn't. He chose to lie instead.
So arguments like #1 and #2 have no standing whatsoever.
I'm right and you're wrong and there is no changing that. A lie is a lie is a lie is a lie.
But he didn't. He chose to lie instead.
So arguments like #1 and #2 have no standing whatsoever.
I'm right and you're wrong and there is no changing that. A lie is a lie is a lie is a lie.
11
We say "teenager" because it's not about illegality: it's about the fact that fortysomethings dating high school students if fucking disgusting and a horrible idea. Because, for instance, the teenager might a couple of years later decide to milk the incident for 15 minutes of fame. For example.
12
@8: But Clinton enjoyed some of the highest approval ratings ever for a sitting president during his impeachment proceedings. At what point did he lose the public? And (if that even happened), at what point did he win him back?
14
@11: So your distaste should be the basis for who should hold office? Cool - so did you vote for Prop 8 because gays are gross?
15
6
We use the term 'teenager' because the kid was a TEENAGER, moron.
sevenTEEN
eighTEEN
Do you see how that works?
I realize some people are too dumb to find their ass with both hands but even they probably can handle this concept.
We use the term 'teenager' because the kid was a TEENAGER, moron.
sevenTEEN
eighTEEN
Do you see how that works?
I realize some people are too dumb to find their ass with both hands but even they probably can handle this concept.
16
Ziggy has it spot on. The only reason I'm okay with republicans of recent history being condemned for their sex lives is when there is legal reason to be outraged. All the republican sex scandals have either involved underaged boys and girls, solicitation of sex in a public area, or cheating on one's spouse. It also helps when an extremely homophobic repub gets outed for soliciting gay sex in a public restroom (illegal) because it helps to show how insanely stupid and fear-induced such homophobia is.
If a single republican wants to have sex with an 18 year old I could care less. If he lies about it I wouldn't care because it was legal and none of our business to begin with. So shut the hell up about this so-called double standard. What Sam Adams did is not even remotely similar to any recent repub sex scandal.
If a single republican wants to have sex with an 18 year old I could care less. If he lies about it I wouldn't care because it was legal and none of our business to begin with. So shut the hell up about this so-called double standard. What Sam Adams did is not even remotely similar to any recent repub sex scandal.
17
Non, have you never told a lie? Has the media ever pried into your sex life? Have you had the pressure of such a situation? They're at your door, lights, cameras, action? How did you handle it so flawlessly?
Lying to the media is not a crime. Lying to the media about your private sex life is justifiable.
Lying to the media is not a crime. Lying to the media about your private sex life is justifiable.
18
I agree with 13. Please explain in detail without resorting to cheap hysterics (if you can) why you believe it is wrong.
19
Lying about sex: okay
Lying about gay sex if you're a closeted Republican: not Okay
Lying about sex if you're straight and it's with a prostitute: not okay
Lying about sex if you're openly gay: okay
Lying about gay sex if you're a closeted Republican: not Okay
Lying about sex if you're straight and it's with a prostitute: not okay
Lying about sex if you're openly gay: okay
20
If I hold public office, why should I not be able to lie and lie some more about matters which 1) are completely legal, 2) are nobody's bidness but my own, and 3) have no bearing on my ability to do my job?
21
An eighteen year old is also a legal adult, making what he does in the bedroom no business of yours. The term teenager is a deliberate omission of that inconvenient fact so you can make someone look like a big scary monster.
22
@8: "Fucking offensive stereotype"? He had sex with an adult. End of story. You may wish to question his wisdom in doing so, and/or Breedlove's wisdom in doing so, but by both their accounts they both wanted it. Nobody was raped; nobody was used. If someone had cried "rape!" or "manipulation!" there would be a story here. As it was, an adult lied to cover up an aspect of his private life that was nobody's fucking business. I don't have a problem with that. In a world where politicians' lies can get people killed and they get to keep their jobs, Sam Adams is a fucking saint.
23
@1
Right, Erica.
Elected officials hold themselves up before the public and the public has a right to expect conduct higher than merely 'not criminal'.
The public can dump a sleezebag just because they don't like his ties, if they want.
Where elected officials are concerned anything the public wants to make its business is its business.
If the officials don't like it they can hike.
Right, Erica.
Elected officials hold themselves up before the public and the public has a right to expect conduct higher than merely 'not criminal'.
The public can dump a sleezebag just because they don't like his ties, if they want.
Where elected officials are concerned anything the public wants to make its business is its business.
If the officials don't like it they can hike.
24
Also, ECB, there are two levels of "not okay". Level 1 is "that's not okay; tsk tsk, I am waving my finger at you in a disapproving fashion". Level 2 is "that is really not okay; you should lose your job over it". He coulda handled it better, but it's not a firing matter.
25
"Teenager" is the wrong choice of words here. It's better than "teenage boy," which I have seen in connection to this case also (that's just flat wrong), but even "teenager" gives the wrong impression. Breedlove was/is a man, legally. So what the fuck difference does it make?
P.S. I would three-way with them. They are both hot in their own ways.
P.P.S. For myself, I do believe in honesty. Plus, I would never lie about a three-way with Adams and Breedlove. I would brag about it. But still... I can understand why he lied, and I don't really care to get all hysterical about it like Erica.
P.S. I would three-way with them. They are both hot in their own ways.
P.P.S. For myself, I do believe in honesty. Plus, I would never lie about a three-way with Adams and Breedlove. I would brag about it. But still... I can understand why he lied, and I don't really care to get all hysterical about it like Erica.
26
This is not just his personal life. Breedlove was an intern in Adams's workplace whom he was supposed to be mentoring.
It shows a lack of judgment on Adams's part. He is an elected official--his good judgment or lack thereof and his honesty or lack thereof IS the public's business.
It shows a lack of judgment on Adams's part. He is an elected official--his good judgment or lack thereof and his honesty or lack thereof IS the public's business.
27
Are you saying Bill Clinton should have been kicked out of office for lying about sex? Should John Edwards be kicked out for lying about his affair? What about lying about drug use? Should Clinton have been kicked out for lying about pot (I didn't inhale)? Should Bush have been kicked out for lying about drinking? Should Obama be kicked out for lying about smoking? There are certain taboo topics where lying is a bad decision, but should not be a career ender.
28
Has anyone asked Adams, point-blank, why he didn't just say "no comment" or "that's none of your business" when he was confronted by the media?
I agree that his personal sex life is noboby's business but his own. Why, then, didn't he just refuse to answer the question?
Why, instead of saying "that's none of your business", did he instead decide to craft a web of lies?
I agree that his personal sex life is noboby's business but his own. Why, then, didn't he just refuse to answer the question?
Why, instead of saying "that's none of your business", did he instead decide to craft a web of lies?
29
I don't think (at least, I'm HOPING) that ms. Barnett is saying that lying to the media is not okay, just that "lying to the media" is where the outrage is coming from. It's the same reason the media got the vapors over the Clinton/Lewinsky scandal, because a large politician lied to THEM, not to the American people but to the media.
I assume that's what she's getting at, Though I kind of doubt I'll get a confirmation or denial...Ms. Barnett seems to enjoy posting her opinions and then leaving, allowing total comment troll destruction in her wake.
I assume that's what she's getting at, Though I kind of doubt I'll get a confirmation or denial...Ms. Barnett seems to enjoy posting her opinions and then leaving, allowing total comment troll destruction in her wake.
30
Don't let 'em get you down ECB. Managing the media (as the media is, not as it should be) is part of a politician's job. An elected's job is do get work done on a prgressive agenda. I don't care who's genitals my elected leaders are playing with, but I do expect them to avoid behavior that is likely to become a titilating media distraction.
I don't need my leaders to be saints, but I do need them to comport themselves in a fashion reasonably calculated to maintain the public's trust and confidence.
I don't need my leaders to be saints, but I do need them to comport themselves in a fashion reasonably calculated to maintain the public's trust and confidence.
31
Perhaps Dan Savage would be better jumping to help Earl Rynerson who is running for Mayor of Ft. Lauderdale. FOX News seems to be having issues with the fact that he has (had?) a membership to M4M:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/01/…
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/01/…
32
26, You are completely wrong. Adams and Breedlove had no professional ties. Breedlove didn't work for the city of Portland. He worked in a different city for the state government.
People make up "facts" and then scream hysterically, "OFF WITH HIS HEAD!!!" Really is that that hard to comprehend a news story written on a 9th grade level?
People make up "facts" and then scream hysterically, "OFF WITH HIS HEAD!!!" Really is that that hard to comprehend a news story written on a 9th grade level?
33
I'm so fucking sick of people who make the "judgement" argument: i.e. This shows "bad judgement," therefore he is a bad leader.
Mayoral judgement and personal judgement vis-a-vis sex are two COMPLETELY different things.
You might as well say he used bad judgement in speeding up to beat that yellow light, therefore he shouldn't be mayor.
This is none of anyone's business.
Show me one person with lifetime flawless sexual judgement. Jesus.
Mayoral judgement and personal judgement vis-a-vis sex are two COMPLETELY different things.
You might as well say he used bad judgement in speeding up to beat that yellow light, therefore he shouldn't be mayor.
This is none of anyone's business.
Show me one person with lifetime flawless sexual judgement. Jesus.
34
@27, Edwards' career in politics is effectively over, thanks to his affair. Maybe you haven't noticed. He'd probably be where Daschle is now, otherwise...
35
@9 & 28
He didn't say "no comment" or "that's none of your business" because the media would have continued to pry and pry into his personal life to find out, they would have assumed that if he doesn't say "no" then it must be true, and they would have made his sex life a much bigger issue than it was. He told a lie to get them off of it because it isn't any of their business but they would have made it their business anyway.
He didn't say "no comment" or "that's none of your business" because the media would have continued to pry and pry into his personal life to find out, they would have assumed that if he doesn't say "no" then it must be true, and they would have made his sex life a much bigger issue than it was. He told a lie to get them off of it because it isn't any of their business but they would have made it their business anyway.
36
@13 & 18: Adams didn't lie to the media, he lied to the voters of Portland during an election campaign. He was elected, in part, because the voters trusted him. Now it turns out that he lied about one thing, so people are wondering about the truthfulness of all of his other public statements.
38
@24: but an election is an opportunity for the public to decide whether you should get the job. And the decision isn't just made based on whether you have ever broken the law, but on your judgement. In this instance the voting public was denied the opportunity to decide whether a 40-something politician fucking a high school student was OK, because the 40-something politician lied about it, because the politicial realized it said shitty things about his judgement. He didn't say "yeah, i fucked a hot adult" or "none of your goddamned business where I put my dick" or "who I fuck doesn't say anything about my qualifications for the job" but "no of course I didn't fuck a teenager, what kind of creep do you think I am?" He lied because he knew that making out with a 17yo in a public bathroom spoke volumes about his judgement, judgement which is germane to his position.
39
Rob in Baltimore, are you at it again? do you not see the difference between being a writer for a alternative newspaper and running for mayor? do you not see the difference between a specific question based on known facts and total disclosure? and do you not see the difference between someone's who been caught in a lie already and a strange accusation made up out of the blue?
i thought the fact that SA was being investigated changed your mind? what happened to your post about egg on dan's face?
you like to make up stories about everyone's sex lives, why don't you first make up your mind?
i thought the fact that SA was being investigated changed your mind? what happened to your post about egg on dan's face?
you like to make up stories about everyone's sex lives, why don't you first make up your mind?
41
@38 in addition, Sam had to know it might come up. how do you run for office and not have a plan to answer such an obvious question? it makes me think he planned to lie, thinking he'd get away with it.
43
During the campaign, when asked about his & Beau's relationship, Sam chose not to say "No comment" or "My private life is none of you business" or even a simple "no" (which would still have been a lie, of course). No, instead he chose to get on his high horse, and try and make Bob Ball the bad guy. And THAT'S the problem here. It wasn't just a lie, or a fib, or a "little white lie." Lying to protect one's private life is one thing, but a lie dripping with self-righteousness is the most disgusting lie of all. Resign, Sam.
44
@41: Sometimes people run for office on the issues that matter to governance, not whether or not people get their panties in a twist over their private lives.
45
@40. even dan admits most 40 year olds hooking up with teenagers are scum. if scum doesn't speak to judgment, i'm not sure what does. it is certainly something voters are allowed to (and do) consider.
i think we all know of people in those types of relationships, or maybe how we've interacted with them. because of that, we have an opinion on the judgment of those who engage in that sort of behavior.
not to mention the whole lying thing on top of that.
i think we all know of people in those types of relationships, or maybe how we've interacted with them. because of that, we have an opinion on the judgment of those who engage in that sort of behavior.
not to mention the whole lying thing on top of that.
46
Erica, you are being sleazy when you bold the teenager portion. Why is it "not okay" because Beau Breedlove was a teenager? Why does that deserve the bolding (i.e. by bolding, you suggest that the teen portion is game-changing). But legally speaking it is not game-changing. So why bold it?
Unless... perhaps... YOU disapprove of the age difference. And, of course, politicians are all required to live their sex lives in accordance with, what, YOUR values?
Give me a break.
Unless... perhaps... YOU disapprove of the age difference. And, of course, politicians are all required to live their sex lives in accordance with, what, YOUR values?
Give me a break.
48
(from Dictionary.com)
teen⋅ag⋅er (tēn'ā'jər)
n. A person between the ages of 13 and 19; an adolescent.
How is that not an appropriate word to use? Face it: This 45-year-old man was FUCKING A TEENAGER.
Now, if the bitter taste of that is unpalatable to you I am truly sorry. But facts are facts. Own the reality if you want to try and make the case that Adams did nothing wrong. Your attempts to soften the language only make you sound like you don't have confidence in your own argument.
teen⋅ag⋅er (tēn'ā'jər)
n. A person between the ages of 13 and 19; an adolescent.
How is that not an appropriate word to use? Face it: This 45-year-old man was FUCKING A TEENAGER.
Now, if the bitter taste of that is unpalatable to you I am truly sorry. But facts are facts. Own the reality if you want to try and make the case that Adams did nothing wrong. Your attempts to soften the language only make you sound like you don't have confidence in your own argument.
49
36, it wasn't the voting public hounding Adams about his sex life. I'd like to see how you'd hold up if suddenly your sex life was on the 6 O'Clock News, and on the front page of the local papers. How did that song go? "God forbid you ever walk a mile his shoes...Then you really might know what it's like."
50
And although Adams waited until the kid was 18 to fuck him, he started groooming him when he was underaged. Making out and pawing an underaged kid while grounting in his ear "just wait 'til your 18, baby" is pretty scummy.
51
He could have stopped with a simple lie -- a denial (coordinated with Breedlove). That would have been stupid, because the cat was already out of the bag, but he'd be in no worse shape than Spitzer, or Edwards, or ...
He didn't stop with a denial. He played on the gay community's and the gay-friendly community's and the PC-progressive community's predispositions to defend gays from stereotyping and homophobia, by telling accusatory lies.
Both law and ethics are clear about this. No privilege of personal privacy protects accusatory lies.
He didn't stop with a denial. He played on the gay community's and the gay-friendly community's and the PC-progressive community's predispositions to defend gays from stereotyping and homophobia, by telling accusatory lies.
Both law and ethics are clear about this. No privilege of personal privacy protects accusatory lies.
52
@44. please, as if we judge candidates solely on their polices! no one does; it's virtually impossible. we also judge them on what we think their ability to enact policy is, and on what values we think they will promote, etc...
and it's not just private life. there are three issues here, a person may find offensive in one, two, or all three!
1. Lying to media about an issue for political expediency
2. A 40+ year old having a sexual relationship with a teenager
3. An investigation into a potentially illegal relationship that has already been lied about.
and it's not just private life. there are three issues here, a person may find offensive in one, two, or all three!
1. Lying to media about an issue for political expediency
2. A 40+ year old having a sexual relationship with a teenager
3. An investigation into a potentially illegal relationship that has already been lied about.
53
@45 ... RE: "Even Dan... blah blah blah"
Right, and Dan is the final word on what is good and moral.
Seriously, people, calm down. There are predators out there, right? Older men (usually men) who continually go after sweet young things and who do not obey the campsite rule. I think they are the "scum" (such a silly word to be using, but whatever, I'll converse on your level) to which Dan refers.
That's not Sam. He was in a committed age-appropriate relationship for a long time. It didn't work out. That sucks. He had the opportunity for a fling with a younger man afterward. Why not? That seems so natural to me.
By their own admission it wasn't for a "relationship." It was a fun thing for a short time, before they both moved on to seeking more "appropriate," emotionally satisfying partnerships.
This is none of anyone's business. Espcially not ECBs. (Jeez, ECB, you'd think you live in Portland, or write for a Portland paper or something. Why do you even care? Leave him alone. {Cue that crying Britney queen.})
Right, and Dan is the final word on what is good and moral.
Seriously, people, calm down. There are predators out there, right? Older men (usually men) who continually go after sweet young things and who do not obey the campsite rule. I think they are the "scum" (such a silly word to be using, but whatever, I'll converse on your level) to which Dan refers.
That's not Sam. He was in a committed age-appropriate relationship for a long time. It didn't work out. That sucks. He had the opportunity for a fling with a younger man afterward. Why not? That seems so natural to me.
By their own admission it wasn't for a "relationship." It was a fun thing for a short time, before they both moved on to seeking more "appropriate," emotionally satisfying partnerships.
This is none of anyone's business. Espcially not ECBs. (Jeez, ECB, you'd think you live in Portland, or write for a Portland paper or something. Why do you even care? Leave him alone. {Cue that crying Britney queen.})
56
@35 I don't see how his sex life could've been made into any more of a big deal than it is now, do you?
Yeah, I'm sure the media would've kept hounding him if he just denied everything, but hey, obviously crafting a series of lies didn't get the media off his back now, did it?
Yeah, I'm sure the media would've kept hounding him if he just denied everything, but hey, obviously crafting a series of lies didn't get the media off his back now, did it?
57
Oooh, look at me, I'm ECB, I never have sex, never lie, and I'm better than everybody, especially icky gay men who enjoy sex.
58
Infrequent @ 39, both are public figures. How can we trust Erica's integrity as a writer if she can't be open and honest about her sex life? Or, does her sex life have no bearing on how she does her job? Sorry, but I don't believe people's private lives are the media's business, but if a member claims it is, let that person prove it by starting with themselves.
I didn't post anything about egg on Dan's face. Nor did I change my mind because of an investigation. Unless Adams gets convicted of a crime, he should remain in office.
I didn't post anything about egg on Dan's face. Nor did I change my mind because of an investigation. Unless Adams gets convicted of a crime, he should remain in office.
59
@58 Amen, Rob in Baltimore.
Second your call to ECB: You think this is important? I expect your next post to be a list of names, dates, and positions.
Second your call to ECB: You think this is important? I expect your next post to be a list of names, dates, and positions.
60
"Not okay" means what exactly?
That you think he should resign?
Your post isn't at all clear. (Intentionally vague?)
If by "not okay" you mean that he could have made a better choice, well, yes, probably. But if by "not okay" you mean his career should end, then absolutely not. That's ridiculous.
That you think he should resign?
Your post isn't at all clear. (Intentionally vague?)
If by "not okay" you mean that he could have made a better choice, well, yes, probably. But if by "not okay" you mean his career should end, then absolutely not. That's ridiculous.
64
@29: I believe what Erica is saying is: Amy Ruiz (ie the media) believed Adams's lies and now she's fucked.
65
63, how is having sex with another consenting adult predatory? Do you have any credible evidence that is was otherwise? If so please present it here, and to the police. I'm guessing you have only unfounded rumors and innuendo, but that's enough for you to want to crush a man's career.
66
@5 There is no double standard.
The standard is the same for Republicans and Democrats.
The standard is different for anti-gay politicians vs. pro-gay ones, because hypocrisy needs to be outed, when the politician is using his platform and power to suppress people's rights.
The standard is the same for Republicans and Democrats.
The standard is different for anti-gay politicians vs. pro-gay ones, because hypocrisy needs to be outed, when the politician is using his platform and power to suppress people's rights.
67
rob back to posting complements to yourself? Kim, Rob, Rob in Baltimore, J, Fabrianna et al.
Don't care much one way or the other but the hysterical defense of this guy by gays is something to behold.
First the way you all ignore the fact that he made out with a 17 year old high school kid in the bathroom is remarkable. One commentator even made the point that the age of consent for boys should be fourteen.
How many commentators said in one way or another that they would love to tap that. How many commented on how hot BB is and how could anyone blame SA from hitting that. If BB was ugly would that then be a reason to kick SA out of office?
From above
And Rob no one asked SA to reveal his sexual history. They asked about one specific instance. They have admitted starting when BB was 17 and making out in the bathroom of city hall.
Don't care much one way or the other but the hysterical defense of this guy by gays is something to behold.
First the way you all ignore the fact that he made out with a 17 year old high school kid in the bathroom is remarkable. One commentator even made the point that the age of consent for boys should be fourteen.
How many commentators said in one way or another that they would love to tap that. How many commented on how hot BB is and how could anyone blame SA from hitting that. If BB was ugly would that then be a reason to kick SA out of office?
From above
P.P.S. For myself, I do believe in honesty. Plus, I would never lie about a three-way with Adams and Breedlove. I would brag about it. But still... I can understand why he lied, and I don't really care to get all hysterical about it like Erica.
And Rob no one asked SA to reveal his sexual history. They asked about one specific instance. They have admitted starting when BB was 17 and making out in the bathroom of city hall.
69
@67 (McG): Not that many posters have said anything about "wanting to tap that." And definitely no one (at all) said anything remotely close to the idea that ugliness changes the moral equation. If he's 18, what's wrong with saying he might be fun in bed? Why does that bother you?
70
i think it is ok.
and to the "not ok because he was a teenager crowd"
last time I checked, the TEENS of a person's life encompass SEVEN years of life.
It is either vague or misleading to infer that a thirTEEN year old and an eightTEEN year old are the same in terms of maturity, ability to make adult decisions and protect themselves.
and to the "not ok because he was a teenager crowd"
last time I checked, the TEENS of a person's life encompass SEVEN years of life.
It is either vague or misleading to infer that a thirTEEN year old and an eightTEEN year old are the same in terms of maturity, ability to make adult decisions and protect themselves.
71
McG, are you in the habit of making unfounded (not to mention untrue) accusations? (Are you really that paranoid?) I am not responsible for the posts of others, nor is it my responsibility to explain them to you. Unless Adams is found to have broken laws, he should remain in office. Do you have any credible evidence of illegal acts?
72
68, so what should be the government mandated age difference between consenting adults in which it would be legal for said adults to have sex?
73
@67: Breedlove has denied that they "made out", and he's the one that mentioned the kissing. Since it's up to him to determine whether or not it was an offense, it's no big deal.
The more they say, the more it sounds like Breedlove was probably disappointed at the time that Adams wouldn't accept his advances. Bet he changed his mind pretty quick last week, especially now that the booty is probably rolling in like waves during a hurricane.
The more they say, the more it sounds like Breedlove was probably disappointed at the time that Adams wouldn't accept his advances. Bet he changed his mind pretty quick last week, especially now that the booty is probably rolling in like waves during a hurricane.
74
Lying wasn't the best choice, but in the end it's none of anyone's business.
@53 is right:
Sex performs all sorts of functions. Some sex you have with your husband. Some sex you have with the hot young guy who digs you at work. Sorry you don't all understand that.
@53 is right:
He was in a committed age-appropriate relationship for a long time. It didn't work out. That sucks. He had the opportunity for a fling with a younger man afterward. Why not? That seems so natural to me.
Sex performs all sorts of functions. Some sex you have with your husband. Some sex you have with the hot young guy who digs you at work. Sorry you don't all understand that.
75
42 year old man. making out with 17 year old girl.
mix in the lying
Imagine it; dwell on it; let your good senses be repulsed by it; then get back to us about your argument. I encourage you.
mix in the lying
Imagine it; dwell on it; let your good senses be repulsed by it; then get back to us about your argument. I encourage you.
76
42 year old man. making out with 17 year old girl.
mix in the lying
Imagine it; dwell on it; let your good senses be repulsed by it; then get back to us about your argument. I encourage you.
mix in the lying
Imagine it; dwell on it; let your good senses be repulsed by it; then get back to us about your argument. I encourage you.
77
Even ECB admits that lying about sex is okay. It's the first line of her post. So let's just end it there and move on.
79
@75: I'm sure Beau and Sam were shaking in anticipation with that little white plastic stick sitting in the bathroom.
"What will it say? Will I have to buy new clothes? It's another mouth to feed-- oh, Beau, you've really done it now!"
And then Sam picks up the test with a trembling hand, "you're not pregnant."
"What will it say? Will I have to buy new clothes? It's another mouth to feed-- oh, Beau, you've really done it now!"
And then Sam picks up the test with a trembling hand, "you're not pregnant."
80
78: a kiss that lasted for about a minute, according to ~Breedlove~.
That is making out. That is making out.
That is making out. That is making out.
81
78: a kiss that lasted for about a minute, according to ~Breedlove~.
That is making out. That is making out.
That is making out. That is making out.
82
I think it's hilarious that anyone would ding ECB for posting on this subject, as if Dan isn't posting about it a half dozen times a day.
Politics is a popularity contest. People don't want fortysomethings to make out with high school students! Period. Independent of gender. Dude's done. If you live in some fantasy world where it's OK, or you want to pretend it's an LGBT issue, you are in for a rude awakening.
Politics is a popularity contest. People don't want fortysomethings to make out with high school students! Period. Independent of gender. Dude's done. If you live in some fantasy world where it's OK, or you want to pretend it's an LGBT issue, you are in for a rude awakening.
83
@75, 76, 80, and 81 ... Jeez, first of all, learn how to post.
Secondly, I don't understand what a 17-year-old girl has to do with anything. There is no girl involved here. What's your point? I do not understand.
Secondly, I don't understand what a 17-year-old girl has to do with anything. There is no girl involved here. What's your point? I do not understand.
84
Good lord, people, get a grip.
So... what is the top age you can be and the Slog Mob suddenly still thinks it's "okay" to have a fling with an 18-year-old?
Hmmm?
25? 30? 19? 39?
Tell us all how to be moral! ECB! Lead us! What is the answer?!
{shakes head}
So... what is the top age you can be and the Slog Mob suddenly still thinks it's "okay" to have a fling with an 18-year-old?
Hmmm?
25? 30? 19? 39?
Tell us all how to be moral! ECB! Lead us! What is the answer?!
{shakes head}
85
it's funny, dan pointed out that the jesus freaks are against sam... well, it seems the nambla's are for him! choose your side wisely! you are either jesus freak or member of nambla!
86
He didn't hurt anybody!
Why is what he did a problem? There is no victim. Nobody was harmed. It is unrelated to his job.
I am very sad that even in a "liberal" community like Slog, people are so cruel and judgmental.
Why is what he did a problem? There is no victim. Nobody was harmed. It is unrelated to his job.
I am very sad that even in a "liberal" community like Slog, people are so cruel and judgmental.
87
My point of bringing the girl into it (83 via 76) was to jolt the gay bullshit-o-meter into seeing this as we would for another comparison: a straight relationship
for some reason I get the vibe that there is a widespread shrugging of the age/disgust-discrepancy (met with the lying aspect) among we fags.
Or maybe it's just AJ posting under 10 different pseudonyms
for some reason I get the vibe that there is a widespread shrugging of the age/disgust-discrepancy (met with the lying aspect) among we fags.
Or maybe it's just AJ posting under 10 different pseudonyms
88
My point of bringing the girl into it (83 via 76) was to jolt the gay bullshit-o-meter into seeing this as we would for another comparison: a straight relationship
for some reason I get the vibe that there is a widespread shrugging of the age/disgust-discrepancy (met with the lying aspect) among we fags.
Or maybe it's just AJ posting under 10 different pseudonyms
for some reason I get the vibe that there is a widespread shrugging of the age/disgust-discrepancy (met with the lying aspect) among we fags.
Or maybe it's just AJ posting under 10 different pseudonyms
90
River- what is the youngest age? Could Adams have made out with a 16 year old? A twelve year old? High school students are children.
But to answer your question, my home state of MN says you have to be within 36 months of a minor to not have it be a crime. That seems like an entirely appropriate benchmark. 20 and 17? Fine. 21 year olds should be able to find grown ups to play with.
But to answer your question, my home state of MN says you have to be within 36 months of a minor to not have it be a crime. That seems like an entirely appropriate benchmark. 20 and 17? Fine. 21 year olds should be able to find grown ups to play with.
91
I would say that lying to the news media about your sex life isn't merely okay...but a patriotic duty. A moral imperative. A civic obligation. The responsibility of every American citizen. Like jury duty.
92
Kissing is not a crime.
The age question is a question about the sex -- about the sex with an 18-year-old.
It's legal.
The point of the question is to draw out the many answers and point out that nobody draws the line in the same place. So fuck everybody who thinks their line is the line that should apply for Breedlove and Adams. They are both adults. They both made their own decisions. So, STFU, everybody. Especially ECB.
The age question is a question about the sex -- about the sex with an 18-year-old.
It's legal.
The point of the question is to draw out the many answers and point out that nobody draws the line in the same place. So fuck everybody who thinks their line is the line that should apply for Breedlove and Adams. They are both adults. They both made their own decisions. So, STFU, everybody. Especially ECB.
93
This is not just about lying, or whether he did anything illegal. It's about his judgment, which was extremely poor. And as Dan says about men like this—SCUM!
I don't understand why everyone is defending him so much...just because he's gay? I think it gives the gay rights movement a bad name, not to mention the double-standard in this community, that so obviously applies .
I don't understand why everyone is defending him so much...just because he's gay? I think it gives the gay rights movement a bad name, not to mention the double-standard in this community, that so obviously applies .
94
ECB for the win.
Why? Just cause she totally didn't get that it's none of her - mine - or our business.
Unless money is involved.
Or trade deals with China.
Why? Just cause she totally didn't get that it's none of her - mine - or our business.
Unless money is involved.
Or trade deals with China.
95
@93 ... STFU, Anonymous, or at least put your name.
How is it your call to say his judgement was poor? Whom did he hurt?
How is it your call to say his judgement was poor? Whom did he hurt?
96
@95
1) your rules for slog suck, "James". What would you do if you had their real name? Get em?
2) Amy Ruiz
Gay Stereotypes
Bob Ball
The citizens of Portland
etc.
etc.
1) your rules for slog suck, "James". What would you do if you had their real name? Get em?
2) Amy Ruiz
Gay Stereotypes
Bob Ball
The citizens of Portland
etc.
etc.
97
Sven's Law: As the SLOG discussion grows longer, the probability of being asked to use your "real" name to stand behind your argument approaches one.
98
Stop going off on tangents, jerks.
If you think he did something "wrong," establish it.
Who is Adams' victim?
Who was hurt?
How is this any of your business?
If you think he did something "wrong," establish it.
Who is Adams' victim?
Who was hurt?
How is this any of your business?
99
Nice debating skills, James. I'll take your technique:
The seventeen year old boy was the victim, you fucking douchebag. And the voters have an interest because the perp is an ELECTED OFFICIAL.
The seventeen year old boy was the victim, you fucking douchebag. And the voters have an interest because the perp is an ELECTED OFFICIAL.
100
@99: He already said he isn't a victim. He already said he isn't a victim. He already said he isn't a victim. He already said he isn't a victim.
Also, he already said he isn't a victim.
He clarified what the kiss meant, and he already acknowledged in large part that he was the aggressor. He also restated that there was no sex before he turned 18.
It's pretty obvious that your beef is not with what happened, it's just a giddy eagerness to feel better than an elected official. Who is staying in office. And will easily survive a recall vote.
Also, he already said he isn't a victim.
He clarified what the kiss meant, and he already acknowledged in large part that he was the aggressor. He also restated that there was no sex before he turned 18.
It's pretty obvious that your beef is not with what happened, it's just a giddy eagerness to feel better than an elected official. Who is staying in office. And will easily survive a recall vote.
102
James, you sound like your in high school with all of your name calling. Are you? Know Adams? LOL
Some of us would like to have a reasonable debate. And if you don't like my anonymity, why don't you give us your full name? "James" is pretty anonymous too.
Some of us would like to have a reasonable debate. And if you don't like my anonymity, why don't you give us your full name? "James" is pretty anonymous too.
103
Anonymous, you're not having a "resonable debate."
All you're doing is name-calling yourself.
What else is this comment of yours, but name-calling:
"SCUM" "gives the movement a bad name" = noting but name-calling.
No debate there. No reasoning. Just assertions, accusations.
I don't think he gives anyone a bad name. His fling with Breedlove wasn't wrong. They were both adults, and consenting, and Breedlove wanted it by his own admission.
All you're doing is name-calling yourself.
What else is this comment of yours, but name-calling:
men like this—SCUM!
I don't understand why everyone is defending him so much...just because he's gay? I think it gives the gay rights movement a bad name, not to mention the double-standard in this community, that so obviously applies .
"SCUM" "gives the movement a bad name" = noting but name-calling.
No debate there. No reasoning. Just assertions, accusations.
I don't think he gives anyone a bad name. His fling with Breedlove wasn't wrong. They were both adults, and consenting, and Breedlove wanted it by his own admission.
104
Leave it to Erica to completely outmatch Dan in number of comments without the slightest effort.
105
Leave it to Erica to CHANGE HER POST (without even making a note of it), after 100 people have already comment. Ugh.
106
ERICA!!!! It is totally against the rules to update your post without comment. Bad blogger. Bad!
107
@106, your cruelty to ECB sends butterfly tears of sadness pattering onto my keyboard. Do you think she is some sort of career politician, that her hide would be so tough? Have mercy!
108
AJ, I am upon occasion wrong. I was wrong about transit coming back up in 2009 after R&T crashed in 2008. So perhaps I am wrong about the recall. We shall see. As a WA resident, I don't get a vote.
But I'm not giddy. I don't like seeing a progressive candidate falter. I like seeing Republicans falter.
But I'm not giddy. I don't like seeing a progressive candidate falter. I like seeing Republicans falter.
109
I didn't really care until I read about how Sam basically played the 'gay card' before the election, blasting the rumors as some sort of slur on gay men preying on teenage boys.
When, in reality he was a 42 year old gay men making out with a 17 year old and about to have sex with him right after he turned 18.
What a disgusting man. I am really surprised to see so many people rally to his defense. I ordinarily don't care about sex lies but the circumstances of this one go well beyond that.
He should go. Four OR newspapers and the police have called for his resignation. It is only about ego and selfishness for him to continue.. the people he supposedly serves aren't well served by anyone who has divided the city that way. Simple. Go.
When, in reality he was a 42 year old gay men making out with a 17 year old and about to have sex with him right after he turned 18.
What a disgusting man. I am really surprised to see so many people rally to his defense. I ordinarily don't care about sex lies but the circumstances of this one go well beyond that.
He should go. Four OR newspapers and the police have called for his resignation. It is only about ego and selfishness for him to continue.. the people he supposedly serves aren't well served by anyone who has divided the city that way. Simple. Go.
110
Erica has her head screwed on right.
Commenters sound about the same as the commenters down here in Portland. You think its about homophobia, and we're a bunch of prudes.
That ain't what it's about.
Commenters sound about the same as the commenters down here in Portland. You think its about homophobia, and we're a bunch of prudes.
That ain't what it's about.
112
Well, that thread gave the mentally and emotionally handicapped people an outlet for their nonsensical ravings, as well as something to do all afternoon. So Slog and ECB have performed a valuable service here.
113
17 or 18 years old, Beau Breedlove was a teenager. A kid and a legal adult. Sam Adams is 41. If Beau was a teenage girl and S.A. was a straight dude and/or a Republican would you be saying "Big Deal" or would you be screaming for his head?
p.s. For all of you who keep repeating "Beau isn't a victim because he says he isn't a victim", think about this: Villi Falou was 12-13 when he started "dating" Mary Kay and he doesn't view himself a victim, either.
p.s. For all of you who keep repeating "Beau isn't a victim because he says he isn't a victim", think about this: Villi Falou was 12-13 when he started "dating" Mary Kay and he doesn't view himself a victim, either.
115
No. No, my standards for privacy do not change from situation to situation. No, it wouldn't matter if he was a Republican. No, it wouldn't matter if it was a teenage girl. No, it would matter if he was straight. No, you're hypothetical situations do not give me pause.
And beside the fact that 12 is clearly not 18, the relationship is clearly different when one is in a clear, established position of power over the child. Like, say, a teacher, or a youth pastor.
And beside the fact that 12 is clearly not 18, the relationship is clearly different when one is in a clear, established position of power over the child. Like, say, a teacher, or a youth pastor.
116
Defenders. Be Honest. Please.
If Sam Adams was a straight 42 yr old caught lying about sex with a barely 18 yr old hottie, would you really be up in arms defending him?
Would you, Dan?
No. You would be mocking him.
This is a tribal thing - pure and simple.
Portland elected a gay man. The outrage is not about him being gay. Perhaps he need not resign, but why waste the energy, self-respect and credibility in defending his actions?
Is this something you would do?
He was a 42yr old political pro "mentor" grooming a 17yr old for banging after the birthday. He not only lied about it but used the charges to seize moral high ground and force an opponent out of the race for "perpetuating gay stereotypes", which he in truth was acting out.
Dan called this type scum before. How has that analysis really changed?
We want equality for gays in this country. Gays may legitimately feel an attack on one of them is based on who they are.
This one is not, IMHO. This is about What He Did.
We will get closer to gay equality when objectionable actions by a gay person can be viewed objectively by gay people - without the knee jerk tribal defense.
If Sam Adams was a straight 42 yr old caught lying about sex with a barely 18 yr old hottie, would you really be up in arms defending him?
Would you, Dan?
No. You would be mocking him.
This is a tribal thing - pure and simple.
Portland elected a gay man. The outrage is not about him being gay. Perhaps he need not resign, but why waste the energy, self-respect and credibility in defending his actions?
Is this something you would do?
He was a 42yr old political pro "mentor" grooming a 17yr old for banging after the birthday. He not only lied about it but used the charges to seize moral high ground and force an opponent out of the race for "perpetuating gay stereotypes", which he in truth was acting out.
Dan called this type scum before. How has that analysis really changed?
We want equality for gays in this country. Gays may legitimately feel an attack on one of them is based on who they are.
This one is not, IMHO. This is about What He Did.
We will get closer to gay equality when objectionable actions by a gay person can be viewed objectively by gay people - without the knee jerk tribal defense.
118
@ 115,
You might be fair-minded enough not to scream for a straight Republican's head on a stick, but I'm not. I don't like Sam Adams at the moment, but I don't want him to resign. If he were a Republican (gay or straight), I would. I am a hypocrite. The Bush administration has turned me into a bigot.
You might be fair-minded enough not to scream for a straight Republican's head on a stick, but I'm not. I don't like Sam Adams at the moment, but I don't want him to resign. If he were a Republican (gay or straight), I would. I am a hypocrite. The Bush administration has turned me into a bigot.
119
Playing the "gay" card was wrong of Adams to do, accusing his opponent of stereotypes, when it was the truth.
But that's the ONLY thing it was wrong of him to do, and that's the part that Erica added to her post after 100 people had already commented, most of them calling her out. NOT OKAY.
Otherwise, it's none of our business. And yes, as long as the official involved isn't trying to legislate my bedroom behavior, then I believe his or her bedroom behavior is none of my fucking business, whether that politician is Republican, Democrat, man, woman, straight, or gay.
But that's the ONLY thing it was wrong of him to do, and that's the part that Erica added to her post after 100 people had already commented, most of them calling her out. NOT OKAY.
Otherwise, it's none of our business. And yes, as long as the official involved isn't trying to legislate my bedroom behavior, then I believe his or her bedroom behavior is none of my fucking business, whether that politician is Republican, Democrat, man, woman, straight, or gay.
121
116
Best post.
Sloggers love to mock religious people as ignorant blind deceived cultist but the closing ranks around Adams puts Scientology or Texas polygamists to shame.
A hallmark of cults is that it is OK for the cult leaders to break the rules everyone else is expected to abide.
Dan thinks 40somethings preying on teens are scum. (he is right) Except when it is America's first openly gay big city mayor. (he is wrong)
It is not about gay.
There should not be a separate set of rules for gay.
It is about lying and hypocrisy.
Best post.
Sloggers love to mock religious people as ignorant blind deceived cultist but the closing ranks around Adams puts Scientology or Texas polygamists to shame.
A hallmark of cults is that it is OK for the cult leaders to break the rules everyone else is expected to abide.
Dan thinks 40somethings preying on teens are scum. (he is right) Except when it is America's first openly gay big city mayor. (he is wrong)
It is not about gay.
There should not be a separate set of rules for gay.
It is about lying and hypocrisy.
122
I am really offended at the people who suggest that the "queers" are "closing ranks" to defend the indefensible. For one thing, you do not know the sexuality of the posters. For another, the difference between the Haggards and Vitters of the world and the Adamses of the world has already been explained in this thread.
Adams big mistake was not owning his sexuality.
He should have felt confident that A) he did nothing wrong* and that B) it wasn't the media's business to ask him about his sex life. He should have said, "None of your fucking business and left it at that."
Instead, he gave his critics ammunition by externalizing his guilt over becoming "a stereotype," and that was his big problem. (Which, again, Erica didn't even add to your list of accusations until several hours after she posted, and after a hundred commenters had already weighed in, which, frankly, is dishonest too. So, Erica, welcome to Sam's club, you liar.)
*RE: "did nothing wrong" ... I am basing this on Sam's and Beau's statements. Is it entirely possible for a 40-something to harm an 18-year-old? Of course. Is it entirely possible for them to have a short and satisfying fling? Equally. Who knows the truth? They do. Let's believe 'em. And for the folks who are flinging the charges of hypocrisy, I'd say the same of, say, Eliot Spitzer.. IF he didn't have a wife and kids that he harmed, and IF AND ONLY IF the sex-worker agreed she was not harmed.
Adams big mistake was not owning his sexuality.
He should have felt confident that A) he did nothing wrong* and that B) it wasn't the media's business to ask him about his sex life. He should have said, "None of your fucking business and left it at that."
Instead, he gave his critics ammunition by externalizing his guilt over becoming "a stereotype," and that was his big problem. (Which, again, Erica didn't even add to your list of accusations until several hours after she posted, and after a hundred commenters had already weighed in, which, frankly, is dishonest too. So, Erica, welcome to Sam's club, you liar.)
*RE: "did nothing wrong" ... I am basing this on Sam's and Beau's statements. Is it entirely possible for a 40-something to harm an 18-year-old? Of course. Is it entirely possible for them to have a short and satisfying fling? Equally. Who knows the truth? They do. Let's believe 'em. And for the folks who are flinging the charges of hypocrisy, I'd say the same of, say, Eliot Spitzer.. IF he didn't have a wife and kids that he harmed, and IF AND ONLY IF the sex-worker agreed she was not harmed.
123
Erica, if you posted "grass is green" the first 10 responses would be angry, overly aggressive refutations of grass's greenness with a sprinkling of anti-woman rhetoric. Something about you just seems to bring out the rancor in contrarian hipster misogynists.
124
(I'm jumping into this without reading the preceding 123 comments, so apologies if this is redundant.)
What's driving me crazy about Erica's statement is the focus on "the media". If her comment was about lying to the public via the media, it would be a much better argument. (I'm not taking sides in the public life/private life argument.)
If the lying is important, then it's important to the people. The media are just the conduit to the people. People who report news aren't more important than the average citizen. The high-handedness of "lying to the media is wrong" really bothers me.
What's driving me crazy about Erica's statement is the focus on "the media". If her comment was about lying to the public via the media, it would be a much better argument. (I'm not taking sides in the public life/private life argument.)
If the lying is important, then it's important to the people. The media are just the conduit to the people. People who report news aren't more important than the average citizen. The high-handedness of "lying to the media is wrong" really bothers me.
125
@124 ... I totally agree with Lurker Jen.
ALL of Erica's bolded shrieks in her original post are bogus. She bolds "teenager" (as if Breedlove weren't of legal age). She bolds "to the media" (as if -- like Lurker Jen says -- the people who report the news are more important than citizens). And twice she bolds content about Adams holding or seeking public office (as if full sex-life disclosure is a requirement to serve your city, state, or country).
This should never have become a story.
Do we really need to know, and then debate, the details of every public official's every fling?
[Again, the only non-bogus bolding Erica engaged in was added HOURS later, without comment, and with a telltale typo-set of extra quotation marks, sloppily hanging onto the word "spreading."]
ALL of Erica's bolded shrieks in her original post are bogus. She bolds "teenager" (as if Breedlove weren't of legal age). She bolds "to the media" (as if -- like Lurker Jen says -- the people who report the news are more important than citizens). And twice she bolds content about Adams holding or seeking public office (as if full sex-life disclosure is a requirement to serve your city, state, or country).
This should never have become a story.
Do we really need to know, and then debate, the details of every public official's every fling?
[Again, the only non-bogus bolding Erica engaged in was added HOURS later, without comment, and with a telltale typo-set of extra quotation marks, sloppily hanging onto the word "spreading."]
127
116 - yes
Had SA only made-out with a 17 yo high school student in a bathroom at city hall where he held a position of power that would be pretty bad. Lying about it made it worse. Calling someone else out for saying it happened even more egregious.
At this point he should at least ask those that are saying who could blame SA as long as technically it was legal and as hot as BB is to STFU.
If a 40 yo hetero took a seventeen yo to the broom closet at city hall and made out with her for a full minute and later made out with her in his car and then had sex with her right after her 18th BD, no one would be defending him.
Should he resign. I don't know. Should his supporters try to make this out as some witch hunt, don't think so. He showed horrible judgment before, during and after the affair.
Had SA only made-out with a 17 yo high school student in a bathroom at city hall where he held a position of power that would be pretty bad. Lying about it made it worse. Calling someone else out for saying it happened even more egregious.
At this point he should at least ask those that are saying who could blame SA as long as technically it was legal and as hot as BB is to STFU.
If a 40 yo hetero took a seventeen yo to the broom closet at city hall and made out with her for a full minute and later made out with her in his car and then had sex with her right after her 18th BD, no one would be defending him.
Should he resign. I don't know. Should his supporters try to make this out as some witch hunt, don't think so. He showed horrible judgment before, during and after the affair.
128
The "gay community" should wash it's hands and walk away.
The whole sordid affair started with two gays (Adams, Ball) screwing each other (and the public) over and it has gone downhill from there.
Sometimes there are not any good guys in a fight, no 'victims', just a bunch of thugs knifing each other in the back.
Nationalizing the story or making it about how a 'gay mayor' is being treated is a poor idea.
The whole sordid affair started with two gays (Adams, Ball) screwing each other (and the public) over and it has gone downhill from there.
Sometimes there are not any good guys in a fight, no 'victims', just a bunch of thugs knifing each other in the back.
Nationalizing the story or making it about how a 'gay mayor' is being treated is a poor idea.
129
I don't suppose any of Erica's workmates have any dirt on her sex life that she'd be embarrassed about and not be willing to admit to ... just, you know, to test this idea out.
130
116 yes.
Not resigning stirs the pot; this story debated nationally hurts gay equality immeasurably and "defines" gays as "defenders of predatory 40 year olds who use power and lies to hit on 17 year olds." This whole defending SA is a big poke in the eye to America and the moderates who need to be won over.
Too coldly political?
OK, here's my response:
1. Obama.
2. Trinity and Wright.
3. The bus!
Not resigning stirs the pot; this story debated nationally hurts gay equality immeasurably and "defines" gays as "defenders of predatory 40 year olds who use power and lies to hit on 17 year olds." This whole defending SA is a big poke in the eye to America and the moderates who need to be won over.
Too coldly political?
OK, here's my response:
1. Obama.
2. Trinity and Wright.
3. The bus!
131
idaho, rob, kim, baltimore rob and the rest of your names
ECB is not running for office. SA is a scumbag for using his office to seduce or be seduced by a 17 yo high school student. The media have the right to ask questions about public official's behavior without disclosing anything about their own behavior.
If an elected official was accused of parking in handicapped zones and not paying the tickets, would that mean that a reporter would have to release their parking history and more importantly would it make any difference in the reporting?
If the official is cheating on his taxes does that mean the reporter needs to reveal their own tax history?
If the official is accused of being a drunk does the reporter need to reveal their own drinking habits?
ECB is not running for office. SA is a scumbag for using his office to seduce or be seduced by a 17 yo high school student. The media have the right to ask questions about public official's behavior without disclosing anything about their own behavior.
If an elected official was accused of parking in handicapped zones and not paying the tickets, would that mean that a reporter would have to release their parking history and more importantly would it make any difference in the reporting?
If the official is cheating on his taxes does that mean the reporter needs to reveal their own tax history?
If the official is accused of being a drunk does the reporter need to reveal their own drinking habits?
132
McG, Paranoid much? I am not posting as multiple people. I did add "in Baltimore" to my name for clarification because someone else was also using the name "Rob". Do you see conspiracy in everything? Calm down.
Parking violations, & taxes, are a matter of public record. Drinking, if it leads to a crime like drunk driving, or public intoxication, etc, is also public record, otherwise it's nobody's business. Sex between two consenting adults is not the public's, the media's nor your business. Get the difference?
You proved that you are not willing to discuss your sex life using your real name, but you think that others should.
Parking violations, & taxes, are a matter of public record. Drinking, if it leads to a crime like drunk driving, or public intoxication, etc, is also public record, otherwise it's nobody's business. Sex between two consenting adults is not the public's, the media's nor your business. Get the difference?
You proved that you are not willing to discuss your sex life using your real name, but you think that others should.
133
RE: McG @ 131
Okay, so you begin with a name-calling/personal attack ("scumbag"). Wow, that's smart. Then: "using his office" ... I don't think that accusation has been made. Have you ever hooked up with someone you met at work? That's what happened. Then: a scumbag for "be[ing] seduced" ... What does that even mean? How does being on the reluctant end of a seduction make a person into a "scumbag"?
When the questions pertain to law-breaking, or the office itself, or the people's business, yes. Is that the case here? No.
See... your example relates to what I stated above: law-breaking, the office itself, and the people's business. That's why your example is media-worthy, and the interest in Adams' young fling is not.
See above.
This is a better comparison. If Adams drinks three bottles of merlot every night, but still gets up at 6:30AM and hits the gym, and puts in a 9 - 5 or 9 -7 or whatever day, and there's no impact on the city, then no, not really a valid subject for media inquiry. If he's a drunk during the day in his office and the city can't run, then it's valid.
And re: your point about "should a reporter disclose" all of these things if they apply to themselves, no. The reporter doesn't have to. If the reporter is following legitimate news. But since in this case there are media folk (like ECB) who are clearly judging Adams based on their own disapproval of his sex life, then you're seeing commenters calling for disclosure in order to prompt the shriekers ("he's a teenager!" in bold) to contemplate whether they'd like their life to be an open book.
More...
SA is a scumbag for using his office to seduce or be seduced by a 17 yo high school student.
Okay, so you begin with a name-calling/personal attack ("scumbag"). Wow, that's smart. Then: "using his office" ... I don't think that accusation has been made. Have you ever hooked up with someone you met at work? That's what happened. Then: a scumbag for "be[ing] seduced" ... What does that even mean? How does being on the reluctant end of a seduction make a person into a "scumbag"?
The media have the right to ask questions about public official's behavior without disclosing anything about their own behavior.
When the questions pertain to law-breaking, or the office itself, or the people's business, yes. Is that the case here? No.
If an elected official was accused of parking in handicapped zones and not paying the tickets, would that mean that a reporter would have to release their parking history and more importantly would it make any difference in the reporting?
See... your example relates to what I stated above: law-breaking, the office itself, and the people's business. That's why your example is media-worthy, and the interest in Adams' young fling is not.
If the official is cheating on his taxes does that mean the reporter needs to reveal their own tax history?
See above.
If the official is accused of being a drunk does the reporter need to reveal their own drinking habits?
This is a better comparison. If Adams drinks three bottles of merlot every night, but still gets up at 6:30AM and hits the gym, and puts in a 9 - 5 or 9 -7 or whatever day, and there's no impact on the city, then no, not really a valid subject for media inquiry. If he's a drunk during the day in his office and the city can't run, then it's valid.
And re: your point about "should a reporter disclose" all of these things if they apply to themselves, no. The reporter doesn't have to. If the reporter is following legitimate news. But since in this case there are media folk (like ECB) who are clearly judging Adams based on their own disapproval of his sex life, then you're seeing commenters calling for disclosure in order to prompt the shriekers ("he's a teenager!" in bold) to contemplate whether they'd like their life to be an open book.
134
@ 131
McG
Hey there. This is the second time you have identified me as Rob in Baltimore, or some other person. Not so, I'm a mom of two in Portland, OR. Hence, my interest in all the SA posts.
I questioned someone who posted as "Rob", for their sarky hypocritical attack on Dan (I think it was the BB post). Rob in Baltimore explained that wasn't him, I have no reason not to believe him.
My opinion on a poster's general character is based on the body of their comments, not a couple of snarky ones. So, yes I do read the general body of Rob in Baltimore's posts as an indication of his being kind, respectful, and decent, AND I also consider yours to be kind, respectful and decent as well.
What can I say? I enjoy respectful discourse, it is thought provoking.
Best Wishes,
k
McG
Hey there. This is the second time you have identified me as Rob in Baltimore, or some other person. Not so, I'm a mom of two in Portland, OR. Hence, my interest in all the SA posts.
I questioned someone who posted as "Rob", for their sarky hypocritical attack on Dan (I think it was the BB post). Rob in Baltimore explained that wasn't him, I have no reason not to believe him.
My opinion on a poster's general character is based on the body of their comments, not a couple of snarky ones. So, yes I do read the general body of Rob in Baltimore's posts as an indication of his being kind, respectful, and decent, AND I also consider yours to be kind, respectful and decent as well.
What can I say? I enjoy respectful discourse, it is thought provoking.
Best Wishes,
k
135
Taxes are not a matter of public record. The point is does it matter what the reporters record is on an issue that he/she is reporting on and the answer is clearly no.
A judge was impeached for drunkenness. It makes a difference to many people if a candidate or elected official is a drunkard. What if it known that a candidate beats his wife but it hasn't gone to the police or maybe they are covering it up, does the reporter need a note from all the people in life attesting to the fact he hasn't beaten them.
Adams had physical relations with a 17 yo intern in the bathroom of the city hall where he served as an elected official. Obviously BB had an interest in politics and the chance to be with a gay city councilman was an attraction. Adams didn't have direct control over him but it was still a position of power.
We should and do hold elected officials or public servants to a higher standard than anything but criminal behavior is okay.
Whether Adams should resign or not is not clear to me. What is clear is that he acted in a boorish manner and lied.
A judge was impeached for drunkenness. It makes a difference to many people if a candidate or elected official is a drunkard. What if it known that a candidate beats his wife but it hasn't gone to the police or maybe they are covering it up, does the reporter need a note from all the people in life attesting to the fact he hasn't beaten them.
Adams had physical relations with a 17 yo intern in the bathroom of the city hall where he served as an elected official. Obviously BB had an interest in politics and the chance to be with a gay city councilman was an attraction. Adams didn't have direct control over him but it was still a position of power.
We should and do hold elected officials or public servants to a higher standard than anything but criminal behavior is okay.
Whether Adams should resign or not is not clear to me. What is clear is that he acted in a boorish manner and lied.
136
Tax crimes are a public matter. Public drunkenness is also a crime and public matter.
Adams and Breedlove kissed in a bathroom in the city hall. Not a crime, and not a public matter. Adams was not in a position of power over Breedlove. They felt a mutual attraction. Not a crime and not a public matter. Breedlove was the one who pursued Adams. Not a crime, and not a public matter. Breedlove was an adult when they had sex. Not a crime, and not a public matter.
See the difference?
Adams and Breedlove kissed in a bathroom in the city hall. Not a crime, and not a public matter. Adams was not in a position of power over Breedlove. They felt a mutual attraction. Not a crime and not a public matter. Breedlove was the one who pursued Adams. Not a crime, and not a public matter. Breedlove was an adult when they had sex. Not a crime, and not a public matter.
See the difference?
137
Oh, and I almost forgot. Beating a spouse is a crime, and a public matter. If there is evidence that this is happening, then it should be investigated by the police. You know real evidence, like witnesses, etc. It should not be investigated based on a whisper campaign started by an opposing politician.
Get the difference?
Get the difference?
138
rob,
drunkenness is not a crime. should the public be made aware a politicians drunkenness?
if an elected official is beating his wife or kid and the police haven't been called or they are covering it up but the press has become aware of it, they can ask about it. and they can do it without publishing their entire life history.
breedlove was a high school student when adams made out with him in a city bathroom. it may not be a felony but it is a crime to have a kiss with a minor that stimulates either party.
tax crimes are a public matter but not tax records. people that didn't pay ss on workers have been denied appointments. they weren't ever charged with crimes but they didn't get the job because it looked bad. geitner almost lost the treasury and he certainly was asked about it and even though the statute of limitations had run out he paid the back taxes. reporter need not disclose their 1040s to be able to ask.
since sa denied having any relationship why should we believe now that they waited until bb was 18? sa didn't have direct supervision over bb but clearly he held power that could be intoxicating to bb. and it doesn't matter at all who the aggressor was. imagine the defense: but the child seduced me.
the heart of this seems to be that gay relationships should have different rules than heterosexual ones. young boys should be fair game because they want sex unlike young girls and we all know how much faster boys mature.
reporters should be careful about charging people with personal crimes without evidence but they certainly can ask about things that are going around, best in private, and only report on them if there turns out to be a legitimate story but they need not open their own lives up in order to ask.
More...
drunkenness is not a crime. should the public be made aware a politicians drunkenness?
if an elected official is beating his wife or kid and the police haven't been called or they are covering it up but the press has become aware of it, they can ask about it. and they can do it without publishing their entire life history.
breedlove was a high school student when adams made out with him in a city bathroom. it may not be a felony but it is a crime to have a kiss with a minor that stimulates either party.
tax crimes are a public matter but not tax records. people that didn't pay ss on workers have been denied appointments. they weren't ever charged with crimes but they didn't get the job because it looked bad. geitner almost lost the treasury and he certainly was asked about it and even though the statute of limitations had run out he paid the back taxes. reporter need not disclose their 1040s to be able to ask.
since sa denied having any relationship why should we believe now that they waited until bb was 18? sa didn't have direct supervision over bb but clearly he held power that could be intoxicating to bb. and it doesn't matter at all who the aggressor was. imagine the defense: but the child seduced me.
the heart of this seems to be that gay relationships should have different rules than heterosexual ones. young boys should be fair game because they want sex unlike young girls and we all know how much faster boys mature.
reporters should be careful about charging people with personal crimes without evidence but they certainly can ask about things that are going around, best in private, and only report on them if there turns out to be a legitimate story but they need not open their own lives up in order to ask.
139
Unless a politicians drunkenness is affecting the way they do their job, absolutely not.
Beating a spouse or child is a crime. Unless there is evidence of a crime, (again, real evidence like witnesses, unexplained bruises, etc, not some unfounded rumors being spread by a political opponent) there should be no media investigation.
Adams kissing Breedlove wasn't a crime, and not a public matter.
Tax crimes are public matter. Unless there is actual evidence of a crime, then there should be no investigation. Please provide an actual example the hypothetical scenario you describe.
No child was seduced. You keep making up "facts" without any basis. Breedlove has said repeatedly that they didn't have sex until he was an adult. You want to convict someone when there is no victim, and no evidence of a crime. Do you have any real evidence that there was sex before breedlove was 18? I've asked repeatedly for anyone with such evidence to present it here, and to the police. So far not a single person has come up with anything other than rumors and innuendo.
Reporters can ask whatever they want. It's a free country. It's also not a crime to lie to the press, and lying to the press when asked inappropriate questions is more than justified.
Beating a spouse or child is a crime. Unless there is evidence of a crime, (again, real evidence like witnesses, unexplained bruises, etc, not some unfounded rumors being spread by a political opponent) there should be no media investigation.
Adams kissing Breedlove wasn't a crime, and not a public matter.
Tax crimes are public matter. Unless there is actual evidence of a crime, then there should be no investigation. Please provide an actual example the hypothetical scenario you describe.
No child was seduced. You keep making up "facts" without any basis. Breedlove has said repeatedly that they didn't have sex until he was an adult. You want to convict someone when there is no victim, and no evidence of a crime. Do you have any real evidence that there was sex before breedlove was 18? I've asked repeatedly for anyone with such evidence to present it here, and to the police. So far not a single person has come up with anything other than rumors and innuendo.
Reporters can ask whatever they want. It's a free country. It's also not a crime to lie to the press, and lying to the press when asked inappropriate questions is more than justified.
140
Also, please point out where I said there were different rules for gay versus straight relationships. It's just another thing you've made up without any evidence to back it up.
141
rob,
pray tell when is the press allowed to investigate a politician?
apparently only when the case has been made by the police or other authority first.
if the press noticed that rep cunningham owned way too much stuff for a congressional salary they couldn't ask him or others about it because there had not been an official investigation, right? wrong.
and if a pol is smashed every night should we wait until some bad decision is made before the public is made aware or should they be able to vote knowing about the disease?
the press gets tips from opponents all the time and they look into them quietly. if they don't get anything they let it drop.
the press are watchdogs and they need to question things that haven't moved through the justice system. we can't wait for the government to go after people as recent times have shown clearly.
btw by your standards how young could bb have been before it was wrong of sa to make out with him in the bathroom, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16? and yes there are laws that forbid adults from making out with children, even willing ones.
Just one example of gays should be different:
this wasn't signed by rob - didn't say you made the argument but you clearly have no problem with the under 18 aspects of this issue.
pray tell when is the press allowed to investigate a politician?
apparently only when the case has been made by the police or other authority first.
if the press noticed that rep cunningham owned way too much stuff for a congressional salary they couldn't ask him or others about it because there had not been an official investigation, right? wrong.
and if a pol is smashed every night should we wait until some bad decision is made before the public is made aware or should they be able to vote knowing about the disease?
the press gets tips from opponents all the time and they look into them quietly. if they don't get anything they let it drop.
the press are watchdogs and they need to question things that haven't moved through the justice system. we can't wait for the government to go after people as recent times have shown clearly.
btw by your standards how young could bb have been before it was wrong of sa to make out with him in the bathroom, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16? and yes there are laws that forbid adults from making out with children, even willing ones.
Just one example of gays should be different:
The legal age of consent (18) was clearly determined with women in mind, not men. That makes it, technically speaking, sexist.
14 is a more realistic age for male consent.
I'd be fine with lowering if for women, too, but I suspect most women are happy with the current age.
this wasn't signed by rob - didn't say you made the argument but you clearly have no problem with the under 18 aspects of this issue.
142
McG, The press can investigate whenever and whatever they want. It's a free country. As I've said repeatedly, it's also not a crime to lie to the press. Lying to the press is justifiable when they are asking inappropriate questions. Adam's sex life is none of their business.
If a person's drinking doesn't affect their job performance, it's nobody's business. But this is a diversionary argument, and has nothing to do with the situation in discussion.
A 45 year old kissing a 17 year old isn't illegal. No matter how many time you type it, it's still legal. The sex occurred between consenting adults.
In a post addressed to me, you wrote,
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"the heart of this seems to be that gay relationships should have different rules than heterosexual ones. young boys should be fair game because they want sex unlike young girls and we all know how much faster boys mature."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm not responsible for what others think or post. Why bring it up when addressing me? It bears repeating. The sex was between two adults, no children involved. The same laws apply for both straight and gay people.
I'll ask yet again, and yet again you'll ignore it. Do you have any evidence of any crime? It's a straight forward question.
If a person's drinking doesn't affect their job performance, it's nobody's business. But this is a diversionary argument, and has nothing to do with the situation in discussion.
A 45 year old kissing a 17 year old isn't illegal. No matter how many time you type it, it's still legal. The sex occurred between consenting adults.
In a post addressed to me, you wrote,
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"the heart of this seems to be that gay relationships should have different rules than heterosexual ones. young boys should be fair game because they want sex unlike young girls and we all know how much faster boys mature."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm not responsible for what others think or post. Why bring it up when addressing me? It bears repeating. The sex was between two adults, no children involved. The same laws apply for both straight and gay people.
I'll ask yet again, and yet again you'll ignore it. Do you have any evidence of any crime? It's a straight forward question.
143
I can't find the codes directly but this was posted yesterday under the article of SA's spokesperson quitting.
Oregon Revised Statute Unlawful Contact With A Child 163.479 reads "Knowingly contacts a child with the intent to commit a crime OR for the purpose of arousing or satisfying the sexual desires of the person or another person".
Contact doesn't have to be SEX.
"Child" means a person under 18 years of age.
It was a crime that he committed by kissing a child plain and simple.
144
I think the poster of the above got it wrong. I would say we have evidence that SA did violate at least 163.415
“Sexual contact” means any touching of the sexual or other intimate parts of a person or causing such person to touch the sexual or other intimate parts of the actor for the purpose of arousing or gratifying the sexual desire of either party.
163.415 Sexual abuse in the third degree. (1) A person commits the crime of sexual abuse in the third degree if the person subjects another person to sexual contact and:
(a) The victim does not consent to the sexual contact; or
(b) The victim is incapable of consent by reason of being under 18 years of age.
(2) Sexual abuse in the third degree is a Class A misdemeanor.
“Sexual contact” means any touching of the sexual or other intimate parts of a person or causing such person to touch the sexual or other intimate parts of the actor for the purpose of arousing or gratifying the sexual desire of either party.
163.415 Sexual abuse in the third degree. (1) A person commits the crime of sexual abuse in the third degree if the person subjects another person to sexual contact and:
(a) The victim does not consent to the sexual contact; or
(b) The victim is incapable of consent by reason of being under 18 years of age.
(2) Sexual abuse in the third degree is a Class A misdemeanor.
145
A swing and a miss Mcg. None of that applies to a kiss. There was no intent for a sexual crime. They waited until it was legal for sexual activity. Sorry, no matter how many times you type it, it was still legal. No laws were broken. Again do you have any evidence of a crime?
146
134
kim,
Would you marry me?
Your two kids wouldn't happen to be boys, would they?
10 or 12 years old would be great.
kim,
Would you marry me?
Your two kids wouldn't happen to be boys, would they?
10 or 12 years old would be great.
147
146, So now you are posing as me? When my arguments are so good that the response is trolling, it's always a personal victory for me.
148
The question really is, how much more would we respect this man if he had told this young kid, "Listen, I am flattered by you. But, I want you to not feel pressured by me or intimidated in any way. I want you to grow up to be the best person you can be and develop in a healthy way." I am a gay man and I think what he did was disgusting.
Gay men have to stop making excuses for bad behavior. If that were my daughter or son and there was a 45 year old men or women out chasing them around, I truly would go insane.
Just set a higher standard for yourself, politicians.
Gay men have to stop making excuses for bad behavior. If that were my daughter or son and there was a 45 year old men or women out chasing them around, I truly would go insane.
Just set a higher standard for yourself, politicians.
152
@148 ... So what's wrong with saying, "Listen, I am flattered by you. And, I want you to not feel pressured by me or intimidated in any way. I want you to be the best person you can be. That being said, we clearly have a physical connection. I want a life-partner closer to my own age, and you have a full dating life ahead of you to find a life-partner closer to your own age too, but at this point in both our lives, if we can have an honest fling where we're clear with each other about our expectations, I think we can have fun together. I wouldn't be doing this if it was just about the sex. I think we can have sex and also be good for each other emotionally and intellectually. We need to be honest at the beginning that the sex will end, sooner or later. If we can take care of each other, then I'll do this. I think it could be good for both of us."
In other words, why don't you think it's possible to go ahead and have the fling, responsibly, like adults?
In other words, why don't you think it's possible to go ahead and have the fling, responsibly, like adults?
153
A, J, L, N, Rob,
funny how all those single cap letter posters back the same things as ole rob.
the problem with the adult fling thing is that at that time he was under aged, he was a minor. if they coordinate their testimony maybe he can beat prosecution but he used his position and office to meet, greet, and grope BB.
sad, sad, sad that it is argued that he didn't do anything wrong - he might beat the rap but his behavior was disgusting - if he were hetero and did what he did with a 17 yo girl he would be long gone.
funny how all those single cap letter posters back the same things as ole rob.
the problem with the adult fling thing is that at that time he was under aged, he was a minor. if they coordinate their testimony maybe he can beat prosecution but he used his position and office to meet, greet, and grope BB.
sad, sad, sad that it is argued that he didn't do anything wrong - he might beat the rap but his behavior was disgusting - if he were hetero and did what he did with a 17 yo girl he would be long gone.
154
Lying about sex (to people you're not screwing, or about to screw) is better than O.K.. It should be encouraged.
Advertisement
Most Commented on Slog
-
SL Letter of the Day: Pill The Homos! by Dan Savage
-
Dear Huffington Post... by Dan Savage
-
Because Guns Make Us More Safer by Goldy
-
Slog Bible Study: Deuteronomy 21:10-14 by Goldy
-
The Rick Santorum Rally in Tacoma Probably Could Have Gone Better by Paul Constant
-
The AP Is Reporting That Whitney Houston Is Dead by Paul Constant
-
SL Letter of the Day: Daddy Loves Who? by Dan Savage
-
Because Guns Make Us Safer by Goldy
-
Gay Kids Are Still Killing Themselves by Dan Savage
-
Gregoire: "This is signed!" by Eli Sanders
RSS
Facebook
Twitter
Comments (154) RSS