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News & ArtsWednesday, January 21, 2009
City Yes, People Do Use the Burke-Gilman Trail
Posted by Erica C. Barnett on Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 12:59 PM
Some overenthusiastic readers flipped out yesterday in the comments to my post on businesses' attempts to block the completion of the "missing link" of the Burke-Gilman trail—perhaps the most thoroughly studied, endlessly discussed bit of city-level infrastructure in the last ten years. Commenters accused me of "lying" about the number of bikes that use the trail (actually, my information came from King County and the Rails-to-Trails Conservancy) and of exaggerating the Burke-Gilman's popularity because I want to "destroy" industry in Ballard.
First of all: The current route (the "green line") was developed through an exhaustive stakeholder process to appease the very businesses that are now filing a complaint against the trail expansion. The proposed path was moved several times to avoid those businesses, resulting in a less convenient route for riders but keeping cyclists out of businesses' way.
Second, for those unsatisfied with government and nonprofit estimates, here are some hard numbers: In a two-and-a-half-hour count in mid-September, 454 riders used the trail at 8th Ave. NW—three blocks from the proposed "missing link" project. Extrapolate that to a full day, and the number I gave earlier—about 2,000 riders per day—sounds about right. That location had the third-highest number of riders of 32 locations that were monitored—the two locations with higher use were the Fremont Bridge and N. 34th Street (801 riders) and the University Bridge at Fuhrman Ave. East (526 riders).
The Burke-Gilman Trail is an awesome resource for cyclists (especially less-experienced cyclists who don't like to ride on roads), but it gets dangerous in Ballard, where riders have to traverse poorly marked, debris-filled streets and a crisscrossing maze of wheel-grabbing train tracks. The city shouldn't sell out bikers—and waste nearly a decade of work—for the sake of a few histrionic industrial interests.
1
How many used the trail at that location (which isn't the missing link) today?
How long have these histrionic industrial interests (i.e., local small businesses) been operating there? What is their total contribution to the city's economy? And the bicyclists'?
How long have these histrionic industrial interests (i.e., local small businesses) been operating there? What is their total contribution to the city's economy? And the bicyclists'?
5
One data point is not "hard numbers". It could be totally random; maybe the local cycling club was going by. Maybe that was an unusually LOW figure. You need multiple counts, and ones at different times and seasons.
6
According to a November 2007 PI article, total weekday ridership on the B/G was pegged at 2000 (granted, that's "Old Media" and a somewhat outdated figure, but I doubt ridership has risen that much in the interim).
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/transporta…
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/transporta…
8
Erica, the reason I accused you of lying is not because you want to destroy industry. I accused you of lying because you are a liar. I think the main reason you lie is because you simply don't care about your own reputation nor do you care whether your readers are basing their ideas on facts or on fabrications. You believe people are stupid and should be manipulated into doing what you've decided is for their own good.
9
The "two and a half hour period" was from 6:30am to 9am ie. rush hour.
Using their projection, 454 bicyclists at the other location would indicate more like 1,700 bicyclists.
There were 801 bicyclists
observed at the Fremont Bridge, which based on an
average bicycle volume distribution over a 24-hour
time period, would indicate over 3,000 bicyclists
crossing here on a given day.
Using their projection, 454 bicyclists at the other location would indicate more like 1,700 bicyclists.
10
Fred Myers keeps a first aid kit on-hand for injured bicyclists for that specific section of the trail. I saw 3 people injured in the space of 15 minutes over the summer. That section of the trail sucks and is really really dangerous! And there's really no other way to get to Ballard by bike if you're coming on the BGT from the U-District or Cap Hill.
You have to really focus and watch for the the track ruts and potholes and cars speeding past... I don't know what a good alternative route would be, but as is, it's not very good.
You have to really focus and watch for the the track ruts and potholes and cars speeding past... I don't know what a good alternative route would be, but as is, it's not very good.
11
454 riders in 150 minutes?
The need multiple data points for that. I dont believe that number. 3 bike riders a minute?
The need multiple data points for that. I dont believe that number. 3 bike riders a minute?
12
So, Erica has presented one data point...and the elenchos so far has provided zero. And zero evidence that the trail would be bad for business.
13
It's ok, Fnarf has already declared that reality doesn't exist and we should trust his version instead.
But a good study has at least a t-sample of 12 and multiple data points per day during non-holiday/weekend periods.
And costs a lot of money - which we don't have.
I say we tie elenchos and Fnarf down on the rail tracks near Fred Meyer where the B-G crosses and see how many cyclists run over them.
But a good study has at least a t-sample of 12 and multiple data points per day during non-holiday/weekend periods.
And costs a lot of money - which we don't have.
I say we tie elenchos and Fnarf down on the rail tracks near Fred Meyer where the B-G crosses and see how many cyclists run over them.
14
Just sliding along the route on Google Street View shows...well a handful of riders. The other few hundred must be hiding around the corner.
15
I thought the trail would simply be passing in front of these businesses...so now, where it's gravel, it'd be a paved trail and those businesses objected as their trucks might have to yield to bike traffic.
I use that part of the trail almost every day of the week, twice a day...lots of bikes are using that part of the BG. I typically see 2 - 7 riders in the five minutes I'm passing through...I'd say its well traveled, and more would use it if it wasn't so crappy. Its a weird and dangerous part of the trail...
RE: "industrial Ballard"...that certainly ain't what it use to be. Maybe we should blame Linda.
@11 having commuted via that part of the trail everyday for the last 5 years thats about right (it can change w/the seasons, in the summer theres a bit better than double that). A minute feels like a lot longer when counting bike commuters.
I use that part of the trail almost every day of the week, twice a day...lots of bikes are using that part of the BG. I typically see 2 - 7 riders in the five minutes I'm passing through...I'd say its well traveled, and more would use it if it wasn't so crappy. Its a weird and dangerous part of the trail...
RE: "industrial Ballard"...that certainly ain't what it use to be. Maybe we should blame Linda.
@11 having commuted via that part of the trail everyday for the last 5 years thats about right (it can change w/the seasons, in the summer theres a bit better than double that). A minute feels like a lot longer when counting bike commuters.
16
@ 8 FTW!
ECB take note. Your usage of the word "histrionics" made me fall out of my chair laughing too...
ECB take note. Your usage of the word "histrionics" made me fall out of my chair laughing too...
17
#14 - I don't think Erica's anecdote was scientific either, but what you're saying is that if you walk along side a parade, there's only a handful of floats.
18
I don't get the use of stats here. You choose one 2 and a half hour period on one particular day-- not taking into account whether this was a day when there were any specific events that would draw an unusual number of cyclists, or whether this was commute or non-commute time, weekday or weekend-- and then just ASSUME that the traffic on the BGT remains constant at that level all day, every day? And that is how you get your average number of riders?
19
@14 & @17
Google streets was mostly photographed in off hours to minimize the traffic blocking the view. You can tell from the shadow angles, and the lack of traffic in places that are normally congested.
I'm still stumped as to how this can be the "most studied project in the last decade" yet there isn't a statistically respectable estimate as to how many riders are affected. How can that be?
Google streets was mostly photographed in off hours to minimize the traffic blocking the view. You can tell from the shadow angles, and the lack of traffic in places that are normally congested.
I'm still stumped as to how this can be the "most studied project in the last decade" yet there isn't a statistically respectable estimate as to how many riders are affected. How can that be?
20
@18 - good point. Let's see how many cyclists use the B-G trail from 1:30 am to 4 am on Monday night ...
I still like the rail thing. Then we could see if there are any mounties around.
I still like the rail thing. Then we could see if there are any mounties around.
21
Continuing with what @18 said...
Was it raining that miracle day Erica? Seeing as how we get rain 80% of the year on most mornings, I'd like you to conduct your own random statistical analysis of bike traffic on an 3 randmon morning commutes.
Go do it at 10 places along the trail located more than 1 miles apart each along that downtown stretch. Take a survey for 10 minutes along each of them, starting at 7:30 AM and every 30 minutes thereafter at a new location. That gives you 20 minutes between sampling locations.
Do this survey on 3 random days next month... let's say Feb 2nd, Feb 11th, and Feb 21st.
Get back to us on your findings.
Yeah right. We believe your fairy tale numbers.
Was it raining that miracle day Erica? Seeing as how we get rain 80% of the year on most mornings, I'd like you to conduct your own random statistical analysis of bike traffic on an 3 randmon morning commutes.
Go do it at 10 places along the trail located more than 1 miles apart each along that downtown stretch. Take a survey for 10 minutes along each of them, starting at 7:30 AM and every 30 minutes thereafter at a new location. That gives you 20 minutes between sampling locations.
Do this survey on 3 random days next month... let's say Feb 2nd, Feb 11th, and Feb 21st.
Get back to us on your findings.
Yeah right. We believe your fairy tale numbers.
22
Lazlo, you're an idiot. Did you not read the "two-and-a-half hour" part of the story?? As far as I know, Google's Street View only uses still photographs, unless you have a magic version. Maybe you do?
23
Let's see 2273 cyclists at 29 locations over the peak morning rush and people are saying that the end of BG has 2000 riders a day? I think not.
BTW do you mean 2000 rides rather than riders?
From http://www.seattle.gov/Transportation/bi…
2007 Downtown Bicycle Count Results
The 2007 Downtown Bicycle Counts took place on Wednesday, September 19. Volunteers were out on the streets counting cyclists from 6:30 to 9:00 AM at the 29 locations surrounding downtown. Click here to see a map of the count locations.
Click here to see the Results, which show the total number of bicyclists passing each location in 2007 as well as in 1992, 1995 and 2000. The results show a 31% increase since the 2000 counts, with a total of 2,273 bicyclists being counted in 2007.
BTW do you mean 2000 rides rather than riders?
From http://www.seattle.gov/Transportation/bi…
2007 Downtown Bicycle Count Results
The 2007 Downtown Bicycle Counts took place on Wednesday, September 19. Volunteers were out on the streets counting cyclists from 6:30 to 9:00 AM at the 29 locations surrounding downtown. Click here to see a map of the count locations.
Click here to see the Results, which show the total number of bicyclists passing each location in 2007 as well as in 1992, 1995 and 2000. The results show a 31% increase since the 2000 counts, with a total of 2,273 bicyclists being counted in 2007.
24
the 29 spots only covered DT so commuters to the UW weren't counted which would make some of the BG Ballard count - but I still don't think there are 2000 riders or rides out at the end of the BG
25
When I lived in Fremont, I used the BGT to go to Fred Meyer a couple times a month. This was usually on a Saturday, midday, and I walked. The only time I saw that stretch crowded at all was on the nicest possible days, and even then it was free flowing. There were as many people walking as riding.
If there ever is a statistically valid study done, it must include all users of the trail, even the junkies who use it at midnight.
Maybe, if the trail were intact all the way, usage would increase dramatically, making any previous study somewhat moot.
If there ever is a statistically valid study done, it must include all users of the trail, even the junkies who use it at midnight.
Maybe, if the trail were intact all the way, usage would increase dramatically, making any previous study somewhat moot.
26
Sheesh, why does everyone have to turn cycling into an argument about what's best for the community? It's just a conflict of special interests. My special interest is riding my bike on the BG. The business owners' special interest is to operate their businesses without having to deal with cyclists like me. I appreciate reports who keep me up to date, and I will vote for politicians that support my interest. I don't care how many other cyclists use the BG.
27
I don't get it. What possible appreciable negative impact are business expecting? A couple weeks of paving? Loss of a few parking spots? Looking left and right before backing out?
Who are these people who are going to change their shopping/business patterns because of some pavement and white lines, occupied by very few cyclists, if the business interests view is correct?
And can said business interests show any data indicating they would suffer somehow?
Elucidate. I'm reasonable. What's the *real* cost?
WTF?
Who are these people who are going to change their shopping/business patterns because of some pavement and white lines, occupied by very few cyclists, if the business interests view is correct?
And can said business interests show any data indicating they would suffer somehow?
Elucidate. I'm reasonable. What's the *real* cost?
WTF?
28
Jesus fuck elenchos. Go fucking out there yourself and count all the bike riders in 2009. Nobody else fucking cares exactly how many bike riders ride there or how many many drops of oil Ballard Oil hauls around or how many retarded comments you've posted. (Answer key: A lot, a lot, and TOO FUCKING MANY.)
29
While I agree that mid-September (it was a sunny day) at rush-hour is a dubious "average", the idea that any business in the Ballard industrial area would suffer in any appreciable way from a bike lane is a crock of shit.
However, as a bike rider who lives in Ballard, I have to admit that this extension would be more of a convenience than a necessity. Anyone who actually lives in Ballard gets downtown via the Ballard Bridge (scary!) or the Locks (much better, except you have to walk through the park). Going to Fremont or the U-District, you can take a myriad of residential streets east-west, linking up with 8th Ave and its bike lane going south, which takes you right to where the BGT is fully functional.
From Fremont, Dexter Ave is the most direct way to get downtown.
So, I guess I'm not sure who exactly the extension would serve for commuting purposes. Yes, the entire area south of Market is a bicycle wasteland, but this trail extension wouldn't really change that.
All that said, I hope they finish it. But, I just think it will get far more recreational use (Fremont to Golden Gardens or Discovery Park) than commuter use. 2000 riders per day? No way.
However, as a bike rider who lives in Ballard, I have to admit that this extension would be more of a convenience than a necessity. Anyone who actually lives in Ballard gets downtown via the Ballard Bridge (scary!) or the Locks (much better, except you have to walk through the park). Going to Fremont or the U-District, you can take a myriad of residential streets east-west, linking up with 8th Ave and its bike lane going south, which takes you right to where the BGT is fully functional.
From Fremont, Dexter Ave is the most direct way to get downtown.
So, I guess I'm not sure who exactly the extension would serve for commuting purposes. Yes, the entire area south of Market is a bicycle wasteland, but this trail extension wouldn't really change that.
All that said, I hope they finish it. But, I just think it will get far more recreational use (Fremont to Golden Gardens or Discovery Park) than commuter use. 2000 riders per day? No way.
30
you know elenchos, you're right, maybe the viaduct is the most studied project in the last century. point to elenchos: elenchos 2, ecb 43,556. thank obama you were there to catch that one.
but the idea the stranger makes shit up to manipulate us? you horrible horrible little bitch!
but the idea the stranger makes shit up to manipulate us? you horrible horrible little bitch!
32
@13: "And costs a lot of money - which we don't have." How come we have don't have $$ to finally connect the last missing piece of our flagship bike trail and we do have $200,000,000 to spiff up 6 blocks of Mercer west of I-5 in order to beautify Paul Allen's latest urban wet dream? Fat men (Paul Allen, Mayor Jowly) get everything in this city, and skinny men like your average Joe cyclist get crumbs.
33
If you don't trust the numbers, it is a really simple thing to go collect numbers. All you need is a pencil, paper, and a timekeeping device.
The numbers are collected each year at the same time, obviously not in the middle of the winter when the weather is miserable but also not one week before the STP when everyone is doing training rides.
When I collected numbers on the trail under the Fremont Bridge, at times so many people flew by at once that it was tough to make sure I counted them all, if anything my count might be a tad low.
For the most part, the counts are done by volunteers who are taking time from work and very committed to ensuring that the city has accurate information.
The numbers are collected each year at the same time, obviously not in the middle of the winter when the weather is miserable but also not one week before the STP when everyone is doing training rides.
When I collected numbers on the trail under the Fremont Bridge, at times so many people flew by at once that it was tough to make sure I counted them all, if anything my count might be a tad low.
For the most part, the counts are done by volunteers who are taking time from work and very committed to ensuring that the city has accurate information.
35
Maybe they are afraid that one of their truck drivers will run over a bicyclist and have to pay for the hospital bills.
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