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News & ArtsWednesday, January 14, 2009
City Seattle Police Shoot, Kill Knife-Wielding Man At Aurora Motel
Posted by Jonah Spangenthal-Lee on Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 10:16 AM
Seattle police shot and killed a man at an Aurora motel after a standoff early this morning.
Shortly after 1 AM, Police were called to the Seal's Motel in the the 12000 block of Aurora in response to a domestic dispute.
Police arrived and heard a woman screaming for help from her room. A man in the room refused to open the door and police attempted to force it open. According to SPD spokesman Jeff Kappel, the man then sprayed officers with an as-yet-unidentified chemical irritant.
The woman in the room screamed that the man had a knife and police knocked out the motel room window in an attempt to get to the man.
Kappel says police repeatedly ordered the man to drop the knife, but when he would not comply, officers tasered him twice and forced the door open.
The man got up and began advancing on officers. After again ordering the man to drop the knife, Kappel says "four or five" officers opened fire. Medics were already waiting at the motel and attempted to treat the man, but he died at the scene.
The officers involved in the shooting have been placed on administrative leave. The woman, who police say was in her 50s or 60s, was not injured during the incident.
2
Hotel on Aurora?
I'm thinking.... Guy going through a divorce: A hooker, blow and a bad ending to a long night.
I'm thinking.... Guy going through a divorce: A hooker, blow and a bad ending to a long night.
4
They tasered him twice and he got up? How can that be? Aren't tasers supposed to be strong magic? Ah, but magic only works if you believe hard enough.
6
"12000 bllock"
maybe JSL, could you read it at least once to look for errors before tossing it up on slog?
maybe JSL, could you read it at least once to look for errors before tossing it up on slog?
7
Was it really necessary for "four or five" officers to open fire on a guy with a knife? Couldn't they just, you know, take a step back and maybe shoot him in the arm a couple times?
Murderers, the whole lot of them.
Murderers, the whole lot of them.
8
It's obvious we need to ban knives from all hotels along Aurora.
Especially the ones with kitchen units.
(meanwhile it's perfectly legal to drive on Aurora with a shotgun in your gun rack of your truck)
Especially the ones with kitchen units.
(meanwhile it's perfectly legal to drive on Aurora with a shotgun in your gun rack of your truck)
10
Why couldn't they throw magic, organic peace dust at him or pray to Buddha he would calm down?
Why do police officers have to carry guns? Can't they be non-violent? Why do they have to murder? I bet the poor guy was from Gaza and the police were Israelis?
Didn't anyone think of the children?! THE CHILDREN!?
Why do police officers have to carry guns? Can't they be non-violent? Why do they have to murder? I bet the poor guy was from Gaza and the police were Israelis?
Didn't anyone think of the children?! THE CHILDREN!?
11
Seattle police should base their training on the movie Road House. Swayze disarms multiple knife wielding men with his bare hands in that flick.
12
@9:
I get your point re: shoot-to-kill, but seriously, if a guy can hit five roughly five-inch targets in less than one second with a single-action revolver, then you'd think LEO's could be trained to fire two or three non-lethal rounds to bring someone down, before resorting to overwhelming lethal force, particularly when the perp isn't armed with a fire arm themselves.
I get your point re: shoot-to-kill, but seriously, if a guy can hit five roughly five-inch targets in less than one second with a single-action revolver, then you'd think LEO's could be trained to fire two or three non-lethal rounds to bring someone down, before resorting to overwhelming lethal force, particularly when the perp isn't armed with a fire arm themselves.
15
@12, do you also want the cops to fan the hammers on their pistols, like Roy Rogers used to do? (Paper targets, as a rule, aren't coming at you with a knife.)
17
@9 Yes, I have. And someone attempting to shoot a man across a hotel room without killing him isn't that difficult; police should be shooting to wound, not to kill here. There is no reason why four or five police need to gun down a man with a knife.
18
I am so fucking sick of this ignorant "shoot to wound" bullshit. It is RETARDED and every single time it comes up, nobody supporting this idiotic idea can offer any realistic explanation for how it would work.
Is there ONE police force anywhere on Earth that trains officers to shoot to wound? How come we have cops advocating legalizing drugs but no cops advocating shooting armed suspects in the leg?
Is there ONE police force anywhere on Earth that trains officers to shoot to wound? How come we have cops advocating legalizing drugs but no cops advocating shooting armed suspects in the leg?
19
If a police officer thinks the situation calls for firing a weapon, then they should be shooting to kill. In every police-related death, there should of course be an inquiry into whether or not they used their discretion correctly in choosing to shoot - but questioning their decision about where to aim is stupid. Guns are for killing people.
20
I think the fact that four or five officers all made the same split-second decision indicates this guy was posing as an unambiguous deadly threat.
21
They already "shot to wound" when they Tasered him twice. That's what Tasers are; non-lethal force. He didn't go down. The goal is to get him to go down and stay down. If you're still coming after them after two Tasers you WANT to die. And in a tense situation, I don't think there's room for any "I don't know, Bill, maybe you could try to hit him in the elbow" conversations. A guy hopped up on rage or PCP can walk right through your "shoot to wound".
There is only one correct response when cops point their guns at you: immediately drop any weapons and lie down on the ground. If you want to argue, argue later.
There is only one correct response when cops point their guns at you: immediately drop any weapons and lie down on the ground. If you want to argue, argue later.
22
If it keeps one person off the road during my commute, no matter what the reason, I support it. As long as the drug dealer owned a car that would have any potential of being on the road at the same time I am.
23
@15:
My point being, if a guy fanning a single-action revolver can hit five small (albeit non-moving) targets in literally almost no-time at all, then a cop with a semi-auto should be able to score one or two non-lethal hits on a moving target in even one or two seconds. I mean, it's not impossible, right?
@21:
Anybody with two 'sploded knee-caps isn't going to WALK anywhere...
Look, I'm not criticizing the actions of SPD in this situation, I'm just wondering, if, given the circumstances, there isn't some intermediate level of force between tasering someone and turning them into a human colander.
My point being, if a guy fanning a single-action revolver can hit five small (albeit non-moving) targets in literally almost no-time at all, then a cop with a semi-auto should be able to score one or two non-lethal hits on a moving target in even one or two seconds. I mean, it's not impossible, right?
@21:
Anybody with two 'sploded knee-caps isn't going to WALK anywhere...
Look, I'm not criticizing the actions of SPD in this situation, I'm just wondering, if, given the circumstances, there isn't some intermediate level of force between tasering someone and turning them into a human colander.
24
@7 You're an idiot. Non lethal force was deployed. Twice. Threaten a cop with a knife? Fuck you.
I don't feel bad for people with weapons who get killed by the cops. Like Kaiser Shit-for-brains a few weeks ago. I am, however, outraged when unarmed people are killed by the cops. Save your outrage for someone who deserves it dumbass.
I don't feel bad for people with weapons who get killed by the cops. Like Kaiser Shit-for-brains a few weeks ago. I am, however, outraged when unarmed people are killed by the cops. Save your outrage for someone who deserves it dumbass.
25
Much like everyone else here, if you have any type of weapon and the cops are telling you to put it down, you should put it down, and if you don't and get shot, well you are just dumb and deserved to be shot.
And as for the shot to wound, to me that's more dangerous, if they are aiming for the legs, I have to believe the chances of them missing and that bullet hitting some innocent bystander are higher than if they are aiming at the chest, and as I said before if you get shot in the chest by the cops you likely are dumb and deserve to be shot.
And as for the shot to wound, to me that's more dangerous, if they are aiming for the legs, I have to believe the chances of them missing and that bullet hitting some innocent bystander are higher than if they are aiming at the chest, and as I said before if you get shot in the chest by the cops you likely are dumb and deserve to be shot.
26
Seriously, COMTE, you're in fantasy land.
Yes, some very talented marksmen can hit a very small target. On a gun range. Perfectly lit. With the target not moving. Taking all the time they need.
But when you are under stress, at 1:00am, in dim light, aiming at a moving target, in a dense neighborhood where stray bullets might hit a neighbor, after the guy has already shrugged off 2 tasers, I defy anyone to accurately hit someone in the arm or leg. No way.
One can argue whether or not the situation called for shooting the guy. But if it is truly necessary to fire a weapon, then shooting-to-wound is idiotic. It is dangerous to the officers and any bystanders.
Yes, some very talented marksmen can hit a very small target. On a gun range. Perfectly lit. With the target not moving. Taking all the time they need.
But when you are under stress, at 1:00am, in dim light, aiming at a moving target, in a dense neighborhood where stray bullets might hit a neighbor, after the guy has already shrugged off 2 tasers, I defy anyone to accurately hit someone in the arm or leg. No way.
One can argue whether or not the situation called for shooting the guy. But if it is truly necessary to fire a weapon, then shooting-to-wound is idiotic. It is dangerous to the officers and any bystanders.
27
@23
What if the perp catches the bullet with his fingers or between his teeth?
What if the guy is secretly made of bulletproof steel?
What if the guy does a super secret round house kick and deflects the bullets back at the officers, killing THEM!
What if the perp uses his magic powers and turns the bullets into jelly and all the cops start slipping all over the place like a 3 Stooges sketch?
HUH? DID YOU EVER STOP AND THINK ABOUT THAT MISTER SMARTYPANTS!
What if the perp catches the bullet with his fingers or between his teeth?
What if the guy is secretly made of bulletproof steel?
What if the guy does a super secret round house kick and deflects the bullets back at the officers, killing THEM!
What if the perp uses his magic powers and turns the bullets into jelly and all the cops start slipping all over the place like a 3 Stooges sketch?
HUH? DID YOU EVER STOP AND THINK ABOUT THAT MISTER SMARTYPANTS!
28
Seems to me the cruelest thing would have been to make him continue to stay at the Seal Motel. By shooting him, he got off easy.
29
@12 - it's a lot harder to be accurate than you think it is, with pistols. Even at a good range (3 to 15 feet).
30
So let's say you're having a serious row with a friend/loved one who's drunk and/or suffering from mental illness.
Are you gonna call the Seattle Death Squad--er, Police--to help resolve the situation.
HELL NO.
This is like a fucking third world country.
Are you gonna call the Seattle Death Squad--er, Police--to help resolve the situation.
HELL NO.
This is like a fucking third world country.
31
Why didnt they tase the poor bastard in the nazi uniform?
Unloading 8 rounds from AR15s' into his chest sure stopped him, but I bet he'd have been screaming like a 13 year old girl if they had tased him.
Unloading 8 rounds from AR15s' into his chest sure stopped him, but I bet he'd have been screaming like a 13 year old girl if they had tased him.
32
Comte, you do know that those guys doing trick shots with pistols use blanks, right? Because blanks will make the balloon pop even if you miss. It's silly and not relevant to anything. (Other than it shows how blanks can and do kill people at close range, Herr Professor History Buff.)
The main thing, I think, is that the SPD is hiring now! Are you smart? Got some keen ideas about how to shoot rampaging maniacs in the knee? Want to tase a guy pointing a rifle at you and prove the world wrong? Now you can.
Seriously: become a cop. Reform the police from the inside. Seattle needs you.
The main thing, I think, is that the SPD is hiring now! Are you smart? Got some keen ideas about how to shoot rampaging maniacs in the knee? Want to tase a guy pointing a rifle at you and prove the world wrong? Now you can.
Seriously: become a cop. Reform the police from the inside. Seattle needs you.
33
@31, because Kaiser Shit-for-brains (thank you for that, Rotten) was pointing a gun, not a knife.
34
So, what I hear you saying @26, is that one or two shots fired at a limb or non-lethal area of the body might constitute a possible "threat to innocent bystanders and other LOE's" due to a potentially errant round, but PUMPING 10+ ROUNDS (assuming each of the five shooters got off at least 2) at the head and/or chest is somehow SAFER, because, um, it's a bigger target - but one that, even in the best of circumstances a trained LOE ISN'T GUARANTEED TO BE ABLE TO HIT?
That makes sense, sure...
That makes sense, sure...
36
@34
It is safer, Comte, because more of the bullets are stopped by the target's body when you aim for the center of mass. This isn't some hypothetical, it is something they learned from experience.
I think maybe you would have wanted them to call a time out, go huddle while the suspect kills the woman in the motel, and then the come back with a finely choreographed plan where one designated cop carefully shoots two rounds at the guy's knee. That would make a cute movie, I guess.
I still want to know why no police force anywhere is willing to operate that way. Not even one? Come on.
It is safer, Comte, because more of the bullets are stopped by the target's body when you aim for the center of mass. This isn't some hypothetical, it is something they learned from experience.
I think maybe you would have wanted them to call a time out, go huddle while the suspect kills the woman in the motel, and then the come back with a finely choreographed plan where one designated cop carefully shoots two rounds at the guy's knee. That would make a cute movie, I guess.
I still want to know why no police force anywhere is willing to operate that way. Not even one? Come on.
37
Again, I'm not saying the shooting in this case was unjustified, but, as I queried previously, isn't there a level of action that police can take in SOME CASES that falls BETWEEN non-lethal tasering and overwhelmingly lethal shooting? Does it ALWAYS have to be: "Well, if the taser doesn't work - let's fill him full of lead!"?
38
Yeah, there was an intermediate step. After they had ALREADY told him to drop the knife, and he refused, they told him to drop the knife AGAIN. And he refused AGAIN.
41
From Seattle PI, January 15, 2009:
At a news conference Thursday, Assistant Chief Nick Metz said the five officers, all of them North Precinct patrol officers, feared for their safety when they fired a total of 11 shots at Hradec, hitting him five times."
So much for the theory that a barrage of body shots is inherently safer than a couple of well-aimed arm or leg shots. With that lousy a hit count it's amazing nobody else was injured.
At a news conference Thursday, Assistant Chief Nick Metz said the five officers, all of them North Precinct patrol officers, feared for their safety when they fired a total of 11 shots at Hradec, hitting him five times."
So much for the theory that a barrage of body shots is inherently safer than a couple of well-aimed arm or leg shots. With that lousy a hit count it's amazing nobody else was injured.
42
Thank you, sincerely, to those of you who know how to use your critical reasoning skills. I do appreciate Seattleite's individualistic desire to question authority and stick up for the underdog, but I truly appreciate those of you who try to understand a situation in its entirety. Cops aren’t your enemies, they’re just people. People who have volunteered to daily put themselves into the ugliest situations this city has to offer, at great risk to their own physical, social and mental health. They are human and they don’t always make the right choices. I do hope that we would always question. But instead of falling into a role that chooses the same side in every situation, perhaps we can be people that are balanced and take every side into consideration before making our judgments.
43
kudos to SPD for trying tazers first. Seriously, we should send them cookies and thank you cards for this.
But
Five officers hit the guy 5 times with 11 shots?
In a motel room, which is what, maximum 20 feet deep?
Did the woman get hit too? Or their own feet?
Maybe the 'as-yet-unidentified chemical irritant' was a can of invisibility the perp was using on himself that also splashed on their sights.
Seriously though; does SPD at least videotape these incidents? Then citizen advisory would have a CHANCE of defending their shoot-to-kills and wide aim.
Also: shotgun gets the job done so much better, and I know the squad car has them. Shotgun blast can be for body mass, AND knock you on your ass AND have a chance of being less lethal- especially if you sub different items in for shot pellet. Or: just take the arm off.
The sound of pumping a SA shotgun is deterrant enough for many scumbags.
But
Five officers hit the guy 5 times with 11 shots?
In a motel room, which is what, maximum 20 feet deep?
Did the woman get hit too? Or their own feet?
Maybe the 'as-yet-unidentified chemical irritant' was a can of invisibility the perp was using on himself that also splashed on their sights.
Seriously though; does SPD at least videotape these incidents? Then citizen advisory would have a CHANCE of defending their shoot-to-kills and wide aim.
Also: shotgun gets the job done so much better, and I know the squad car has them. Shotgun blast can be for body mass, AND knock you on your ass AND have a chance of being less lethal- especially if you sub different items in for shot pellet. Or: just take the arm off.
The sound of pumping a SA shotgun is deterrant enough for many scumbags.
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