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News & ArtsWednesday, January 14, 2009
Savage Love Savage Love Letter of the Day
Posted by Dan Savage on Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 4:27 PM
I'm a 21-year-old bisexual woman, writing to air a few grievances with the ever-tolerant GLBT community. Question number one... What does the B in GLBT stand for? Because I was under the impression that it stood for bisexual, but apparently I was incorrect. I constantly feel forced to identify myself sexually based on who I am dating at the time, as though bisexuality is a child's sexuality for people who are "confused," "experimenting," or "attention-seeking." If I'm dating a woman, I'm just not being honest about my sexuality, and if I'm dating a man (or single, more often than not) it's assumed that I'm just using physical attraction to women to get attention from men, an idea that in practice I think is disgusting and demeaning.Frankly, these assumptions come just as frequently (if not more frequently) from the GLBT comunity than even from the straight community. Everyone is constantly shocked that I've never been in a threesome, and think that it is constantly okay to pressure me to be in one, despite my assertion that threesomes may be great, but they just don't do it for me. This attitude permeates through my friend group, my family, my partners, and the world at large. It is a kind of ignorance no one seems to care to stop.
My anger boiled over, strangely enough, when I was watching the first episode of The Real World this season. The transgendered woman on the show, while speaking to her mother, said that the woman who spent the majority of her life dating women, and who is now dating a man "used to be" a part of the GLBT comunity. Wait, wait, wait. Because she's dating a man now, it means that she is no longer attracted to women? Her membership to the club is revoked? Strangely enough, I don't particularly think that the transgendered woman is mean, or intolerant. I just think that this is an attitude so engrained in everyone's minds, that it is just utterly socially acceptable.
For the record? I like eating pussy as much as I like sucking cock. Equally, assuming that they are quality pussy and cock. This does not make me a slut, confused, attention seeking, or experimental. I also like being in monogamous relationships. And I'm tired of suffering constantly against undefended assumptions that for some reason, all those things can't be true.
Help a sister out.
Strong Bisexual Woman
Let me guess: "B" stands for bellyaching?
Look, SBW, it seems to me that a strong bisexual woman wouldn't be so devastated by some offhand remark made by one of the idiot housemates on The Real World. Everyone on that show is a moron—gay, straight, bi, whatever—and has been for the last decade at least. You pretty much have to fail some sort of personality test to even be considered for The Real World. Isn't that part of the premise? Don't we know that going in? If you don't want to listen to dumb-but-good-looking people saying dumb-but-good-looking things then watch The Real World like I do: with the sound off.
And if everyone in your life is pressuring you about having threeways—your friends, your lovers, your family members (your family members?)—then there's something wrong with your friends and lovers and family members (your family members?). I don't think it's fair for you to project the attitudes of those you chose to hang out with, sleep with, and, um, be related to onto the entire TGIF community. Don't like their attitudes of your friends, lovers, and relations? Find better friends, fuck better lovers, and, um, get better relations.
Finally, SBW, while I don't doubt for a moment that your bisexuality will stand the test of time, you have to accept the fact that for many gays and lesbians bisexual identity was a phase, a label they clung to at a time in their lives when they were "confused" and/or "experimenting." The fact that many gays and lesbians identified as bisexual once—or lied and claimed to be bisexual—can induce a bit skepticism on our part when meet an honest-to-God bisexual, particularly a young one, once we're all grown up and completely out. Not entirely fair, SBW, but entirely understandable.
Think of it as your cross to bear. And what cross do we gays and lesbians have to bear? Well, how about watching our bisexual friends who are lucky enough to fall in love with opposite-sex partners—and it's spooky how lucky our bisexual friends tend to be—run off and get legally married while we get fucked over and over again at the ballot box.
As for the "attention-seeking" stereotype, well... you can blame Tila Tequila, one of your own, for keeping that in play.
1
"B" stands for "bacon", duh.
(Incidentally, a GBLT - guacamole, bacon, lettuce and tomato sandwich - is fucking dreamy. I am continually surprised when I walk into gay-friendly sandwich shops and there's no such thing on the menu.)
(Incidentally, a GBLT - guacamole, bacon, lettuce and tomato sandwich - is fucking dreamy. I am continually surprised when I walk into gay-friendly sandwich shops and there's no such thing on the menu.)
3
Shit, #1 beat me to it. Also, it's LGBT, not GLBT. Seems like a petty correction, but try ordering it that way at the sandwich shop, you won't be happy with what happens next.
5
Why do we, bisexuals, have to "accept" whatever the GLT community says (kinda like the blacks have to, Dan?)? Why do we have to "accept" that just because some gay or lesbian pussy lied on their way to completely coming out, that those of us who honestly are bisexual get to deal with the shit that was described in the letter? Dan, you fucking whine to high hell anytime something is said or done perceived to be "anti-gay" and yet when a person complains about similar sorts of discrimination or intolerance of their sexual identity, you act all put out?
It's also all too convenient (and typical) that you would choose to spend time pointing out one or two stupid things that were in the letter (yes, The Real World is ridiculous) instead of dealing with the real issue, which is biphobia. It's something you're surprisingly intolerant about yourself Dan. Every once in awhile you'll make some comment about "real bisexuals," but more often than not you tell bi people to just deal with it.
Well, you fucking deal with it Dan. You deal with the bigots that come from the straight community, the same way you'd tell us to deal with the bigots within the GLBT community (which clearly are more than you may wish to acknowledge). Oh, and should we also be skeptical of gays and lesbians because we've met some "ex-gays"?
I mean for Christ's sake, if someone says that they're bi, then they should be given the respect of acknowledging and trusting that claim until something disproves it. It's not more than you or anyone else in the GLT community would ask for yourselves. And you don't have some moral monopoly on claims of sexual discrimination, either. Gays and lesbians will not, and should not, get full acceptance until they become somewhat more accepting as well.
More...
It's also all too convenient (and typical) that you would choose to spend time pointing out one or two stupid things that were in the letter (yes, The Real World is ridiculous) instead of dealing with the real issue, which is biphobia. It's something you're surprisingly intolerant about yourself Dan. Every once in awhile you'll make some comment about "real bisexuals," but more often than not you tell bi people to just deal with it.
Well, you fucking deal with it Dan. You deal with the bigots that come from the straight community, the same way you'd tell us to deal with the bigots within the GLBT community (which clearly are more than you may wish to acknowledge). Oh, and should we also be skeptical of gays and lesbians because we've met some "ex-gays"?
I mean for Christ's sake, if someone says that they're bi, then they should be given the respect of acknowledging and trusting that claim until something disproves it. It's not more than you or anyone else in the GLT community would ask for yourselves. And you don't have some moral monopoly on claims of sexual discrimination, either. Gays and lesbians will not, and should not, get full acceptance until they become somewhat more accepting as well.
6
Why do we, bisexuals, have to "accept" whatever the GLT community says (kinda like the blacks have to, Dan?)? Why do we have to "accept" that just because some gay or lesbian pussy lied on their way to completely coming out, that those of us who honestly are bisexual get to deal with the shit that was described in the letter? Dan, you fucking whine to high hell anytime something is said or done perceived to be "anti-gay" and yet when a person complains about similar sorts of discrimination or intolerance of their sexual identity, you act all put out?
It's also all too convenient (and typical) that you would choose to spend time pointing out one or two stupid things that were in the letter (yes, The Real World is ridiculous) instead of dealing with the real issue, which is biphobia. It's something you're surprisingly intolerant about yourself Dan. Every once in awhile you'll make some comment about "real bisexuals," but more often than not you tell bi people to just deal with it.
Well, you fucking deal with it Dan. You deal with the bigots that come from the straight community, the same way you'd tell us to deal with the bigots within the GLBT community (which clearly are more than you may wish to acknowledge). Oh, and should we also be skeptical of gays and lesbians because we've met some "ex-gays"?
I mean for Christ's sake, if someone says that they're bi, then they should be given the respect of acknowledging and trusting that claim until something disproves it. It's not more than you or anyone else in the GLT community would ask for yourselves. And you don't have some moral monopoly on claims of sexual discrimination, either. Gays and lesbians will not, and should not, get full acceptance until they become somewhat more accepting as well.
More...
It's also all too convenient (and typical) that you would choose to spend time pointing out one or two stupid things that were in the letter (yes, The Real World is ridiculous) instead of dealing with the real issue, which is biphobia. It's something you're surprisingly intolerant about yourself Dan. Every once in awhile you'll make some comment about "real bisexuals," but more often than not you tell bi people to just deal with it.
Well, you fucking deal with it Dan. You deal with the bigots that come from the straight community, the same way you'd tell us to deal with the bigots within the GLBT community (which clearly are more than you may wish to acknowledge). Oh, and should we also be skeptical of gays and lesbians because we've met some "ex-gays"?
I mean for Christ's sake, if someone says that they're bi, then they should be given the respect of acknowledging and trusting that claim until something disproves it. It's not more than you or anyone else in the GLT community would ask for yourselves. And you don't have some moral monopoly on claims of sexual discrimination, either. Gays and lesbians will not, and should not, get full acceptance until they become somewhat more accepting as well.
7
"I like eating pussy as much as I like sucking cock. Equally, assuming that they are quality pussy and cock."
Testify, sister!
Testify, sister!
8
I didn't say you had to accept it, just that you might want to have some understanding of the dynamics at play. Feel free to reject it to your heart's content, though. More power to you.
11
let's see if she still considers herself bi when she's 40 & hasn't fucked a woman in 19 years. 21 year old bisexual women are full of shit. & god bless em.
12
@1 for the win.
And it's really LGBTDS - Lesbian Gay Bisexual Transgender Differently Sexed you insensitive clods!
And it's really LGBTDS - Lesbian Gay Bisexual Transgender Differently Sexed you insensitive clods!
13
I feel like I could have written this letter.
I have been out as bisexual since i was 16. I am now 32. I only do monogamous relationships and have only dated women for the last decade though I have fooled around with a guy now and again. I hang out with the queers, go to queer bars, clubs, am on all the lesbian mailing lists (so i know if there is an infertility group a Hotflash dance or when Lick is happening next) I donate to LLAA and Gay City, walk in the AIDS Walk and attend Gay Bingo. Just about everyone just assumes I'm a dyke. but i'm not. I'm Bi. I am attracted to women and to guys too (trans guys, bio guys). Straight people just think I'm promiscuous, lesbians assume I'm a "three beer queer". Guess what Dan - I can't get married to my partner either.
The little biphobic comments that are said on the Real World or in a film I recently saw at the SLGFF or by you Dan are what permeates our community.
I'm in the same Big Gay struggle as the rest of my GLBT community and I support you all. I would like some support back.
Thank You
I have been out as bisexual since i was 16. I am now 32. I only do monogamous relationships and have only dated women for the last decade though I have fooled around with a guy now and again. I hang out with the queers, go to queer bars, clubs, am on all the lesbian mailing lists (so i know if there is an infertility group a Hotflash dance or when Lick is happening next) I donate to LLAA and Gay City, walk in the AIDS Walk and attend Gay Bingo. Just about everyone just assumes I'm a dyke. but i'm not. I'm Bi. I am attracted to women and to guys too (trans guys, bio guys). Straight people just think I'm promiscuous, lesbians assume I'm a "three beer queer". Guess what Dan - I can't get married to my partner either.
The little biphobic comments that are said on the Real World or in a film I recently saw at the SLGFF or by you Dan are what permeates our community.
I'm in the same Big Gay struggle as the rest of my GLBT community and I support you all. I would like some support back.
Thank You
14
I support you, Ann. But I'm not going to pretend that what's true—many gays ID as bi for a while, which will always prompt some skepticism; most bisexuals wind up with opposite-sex partners—isn't true. Support is one thing, and you've got mine. But I can't sit here and pretend that the sky is green and the grass is blue because that's how you define "support."
15
As a straight guy, I should probably keep my mouth shut, but my impression from dealing with the alphabet-soup "community" is that it's not much of a community at all. It seems like there's as much bigotry and intolerance as you'd find among any group of diverse individuals. Oh well, just my two cents' worth.
16
Bisexual here, and I could care less. This isn't bigotry. This is stereotyping. Big fucking difference, here. And stereotypes exist. Get over it. Everyone - and I mean everyone -deals with it.
Besides, I figure I can deal with a little stereotype, considering I could fuck the entire world population, if I choose.
Besides, I figure I can deal with a little stereotype, considering I could fuck the entire world population, if I choose.
17
WTF is wrong with experimenting? The only reason I've stopped experimenting is that I've run out of experiments.
Si
Si
18
I don't get too bent out of shape over a comment on a reality tv show, but when a widely-read columnist insinuates that bis stood by idly in the prop 8 fight, presumably because the issue doesn't affect us, i get a little pissed. We worked our asses off to fight prop 8 in California. Mail lists were constantly updating phonebank locations, neighborhood literature actions, protest meetups, whatever could be done. We have a horse in this race too and want the right to marry whomever we love.
I get it, Dan. You have repeatedly demonstrated you have a chip on your shoulder for bisexuals. You like stirring up shit in your column, podcasts, and blog, and we are quick and easy fodder. But this fucking divisiveness weakens the community, and we need all the community we can get.
Well, how about watching our bisexual friends who are lucky enough to fall in love with opposite-sex partners—and it's spooky how lucky our bisexual friends tend to be—run off and get legally married while we get fucked over and over again at the ballot box.
I don't get too bent out of shape over a comment on a reality tv show, but when a widely-read columnist insinuates that bis stood by idly in the prop 8 fight, presumably because the issue doesn't affect us, i get a little pissed. We worked our asses off to fight prop 8 in California. Mail lists were constantly updating phonebank locations, neighborhood literature actions, protest meetups, whatever could be done. We have a horse in this race too and want the right to marry whomever we love.
I get it, Dan. You have repeatedly demonstrated you have a chip on your shoulder for bisexuals. You like stirring up shit in your column, podcasts, and blog, and we are quick and easy fodder. But this fucking divisiveness weakens the community, and we need all the community we can get.
20
Dan,
I'm just saying, it would have done a lot more good to say to SBW and to all the folks reading this, that it really sucks that the stereotype of bisexuals is what it is. Give her some support. Throw in some statistics if you must about how many bi people end up with opposite sex partners, or what hetro-male fantasy or Tila Tequila dose to play this up or whatever, but be on her side. Maybe throw out some links to community resources of Bi-support groups and be the first to call the G's, the L's and the T's publicly to our aid. Heck - if you say folks should get in line, they do.
See Dan, it is SO MUCH EASIER to say I'm a dyke. People get it. I don't have to explain myself. I get tired of explaining who I am attracted to or why I choose to date who I do. People think my Bi card has expired (thank you 19 for proving that) because i haven't dated a guy in a while. Well guess what? If I were to date a guy tomorrow my lesbian friends would ditch me (it has happened in my circle before), my mother would be so happy and #19 would say I USED to be a lesbian. *sigh* I would just be the understanding straight person and no more accepted into any community than I currently am.
I agree with SBW - Help a sister out.
I'm just saying, it would have done a lot more good to say to SBW and to all the folks reading this, that it really sucks that the stereotype of bisexuals is what it is. Give her some support. Throw in some statistics if you must about how many bi people end up with opposite sex partners, or what hetro-male fantasy or Tila Tequila dose to play this up or whatever, but be on her side. Maybe throw out some links to community resources of Bi-support groups and be the first to call the G's, the L's and the T's publicly to our aid. Heck - if you say folks should get in line, they do.
See Dan, it is SO MUCH EASIER to say I'm a dyke. People get it. I don't have to explain myself. I get tired of explaining who I am attracted to or why I choose to date who I do. People think my Bi card has expired (thank you 19 for proving that) because i haven't dated a guy in a while. Well guess what? If I were to date a guy tomorrow my lesbian friends would ditch me (it has happened in my circle before), my mother would be so happy and #19 would say I USED to be a lesbian. *sigh* I would just be the understanding straight person and no more accepted into any community than I currently am.
I agree with SBW - Help a sister out.
21
Dan, seems a bit unfair to say that it's "spooky" how many bisexuals end up married to people of the opposite sex. Seems perfectly reasonable to me. Put yourself in our shoes for a minute ... if you can just as easily fall in love with someone of the opposite sex - honestly, really, truly fall in love - then that path makes life so much easier. It's not that I don't understand the pain of homosexuals who can't marry, it's that my sexuality permits me not to experience that pain by settling down with someone I *can* marry. If you give a bisexual the benefit of the doubt - i.e., assume he/she really is bisexual - then it makes perfect sense.
23
After having been more or less out for 15 years as bi, I have to say that all the really ugly discrimination I've received has been from gay males. Thank you, Dan, for conforming to that stereotype. 'More or less,' o king of recrimination because I really don't care whether a lot of people know my orientation.
Straight people either consider me the same as either gays or lesbians or just don't give a shit about my orientation. You know what that's like.
But apparently, for some gays/lesbians, it's some sort of ugly issue that bi people exist at all. I've encountered a lot of mean-spirited behavior going back to the early 90s in Chicago, and it doesn't seem to have calmed down here in seattle where I've lived for over 10 years aside from being more passive-aggressive.
So, thanks, Dan for once again showing how tenuous this whole ACRONYM community thing is when people aren't getting exactly what they want. You are, in fact, a negative stereotype but it's good because you can be held up as a public example of this negative behavior to younger bi folks who get discriminated against by the small minded.
Straight people either consider me the same as either gays or lesbians or just don't give a shit about my orientation. You know what that's like.
But apparently, for some gays/lesbians, it's some sort of ugly issue that bi people exist at all. I've encountered a lot of mean-spirited behavior going back to the early 90s in Chicago, and it doesn't seem to have calmed down here in seattle where I've lived for over 10 years aside from being more passive-aggressive.
So, thanks, Dan for once again showing how tenuous this whole ACRONYM community thing is when people aren't getting exactly what they want. You are, in fact, a negative stereotype but it's good because you can be held up as a public example of this negative behavior to younger bi folks who get discriminated against by the small minded.
24
I went through a period in my teens when I thought I was bi before I was comfortable coming out. I'm not saying that everyone who is bi is just at a rest stop to Gaysville, but personally the idea of only occasionally wanting the cock was a bit easier to swallow. (Sorry, couldn't help myself.)
26
And to add to @21's point, I've had perfectly good relationships with gay men ruined by peer pressure because of his friends coming down on him because of my orientation.
So, if my longest term relationships aren't the ones where i've run into problems with my orientation, why is that surprising to you? Or maybe it is, given that you immediately jump to the most annoying stereotype (Ms. Tequila) when you reach for an example. If you looked at the media, you'd see that Angelina Jolie is the bi female that gets held up in mass media, and she seems to be doing okay for herself these days.
It's kind of sad, really, that you immediately jump for the most negative stereotype you can, and only goes to further demonstrate my point that you can be held up as an public example of this behavior.
So, if my longest term relationships aren't the ones where i've run into problems with my orientation, why is that surprising to you? Or maybe it is, given that you immediately jump to the most annoying stereotype (Ms. Tequila) when you reach for an example. If you looked at the media, you'd see that Angelina Jolie is the bi female that gets held up in mass media, and she seems to be doing okay for herself these days.
It's kind of sad, really, that you immediately jump for the most negative stereotype you can, and only goes to further demonstrate my point that you can be held up as an public example of this behavior.
28
Wow. She's complaining about the trannie on TV oppressing her. A bisexual girl hits on a guy in the south, she risks getting asked for a threeway. A trannie girl hits on a guy in the south, she risks getting stabbed. By the cops. Give me a fucking break.
29
there's so much I want to say and I don't feel coherent enough to say it. I've been sitting here trying to type something for perhaps 20 minutes... but it's not working because I want to write something perfect and concise that will perhaps result in a thoughtful response from you, Dan. but you have demonstrated that when it comes to bisexual issues, you don't really care to be thoughtful. In your response to SBW, you did absolutely nothing to show any kind of understanding of her situation, instead you told her that she had to realize how it's sooooooo hard for the gays to believe in bisexuality... so shut up and deal with it. bear it silently. she deserves it because she has the ability to get married if she so desires. and then, of course, blame Tila Tequila! what we really need to do is blame ourselves, rather than asking for support from other queers. yes.
I'd rather that you say that you just don't give a shit and get it over with.
I'd rather that you say that you just don't give a shit and get it over with.
30
How about if there's a statute of limitations on bisexuality, and you lose your status if you go, oh, let's say six months without having sex with both genders? Past that point you're just gay or straight, even if you go back the other way at some point in the future. I don't much care which gender you have sex with, but I really REALLY don't care which gender you MIGHT have sex with later. It's all a little too theoretical.
31
also- I just want to say that it was really refreshing to read the comments section and find so many other people who found Dan's response to be upsetting. thanks for saying it better than I could.
32
I also kinda think of it as we're all a little bisexual, it's human nature. It's just being greedy. :p
33
Hi Dan,
I'm straight. I love your column. I love your podcast. I watch you when you're on t.v. I'm a believer.
Dude...hear me... You are biased against bi folks. Look at it, ok?
Written with love.
Nico
I'm straight. I love your column. I love your podcast. I watch you when you're on t.v. I'm a believer.
Dude...hear me... You are biased against bi folks. Look at it, ok?
Written with love.
Nico
34
I identify as a gay man even though I occasionally sleep with women (because, A: sex is pleasurable and B: Women are so beautiful). I chose to identify gay because bi is just too difficult and theoretical to explain (thanks Fnarf). Still, I don't sneak around sleeping with women on the sly; my gay male friends are terribly offensive about it, regressing usually to 9 year olds in their fear and loathing; lesbians become hoary old men pushing for private details, and straights think I'm just another wacky queer being bohemian...It shouldn't be so hard for people to tolerate or respect. The only people who seem okay with bi behaviour is straight women. Are they the most open minded community out there? Dan, I get your point but I agree with Nico, I think you're biased against Bi's. So as my Mother always said, If you've got nothing nice to say, say nothing at all.
35
Umm, it used to be "L"esbian and "G"ay. (Like, "GLEAM": Gay and Lesbian Employees at Microsoft.) I don't think it was the "L"esbians and "G"ays who demanded to be included in the whole "LGBT" alphabet soup bullshit.
So, "B"isexuals, if you don't like being lumped together with "L"esbians and "G"ays, then FUCK THE HELL OFF AND START YOUR OWN FUCKING ORGANIZATIONS AND PARADES AND QUIT PIGGYBACKING ON OURS AND WHINING YOUR FUCKING HEADS OFF. Thank you.
So, "B"isexuals, if you don't like being lumped together with "L"esbians and "G"ays, then FUCK THE HELL OFF AND START YOUR OWN FUCKING ORGANIZATIONS AND PARADES AND QUIT PIGGYBACKING ON OURS AND WHINING YOUR FUCKING HEADS OFF. Thank you.
36
@35,
I'm sorry you have a bad case of tragic faggot syndrome, perhaps Dan can come up with an gay celebrity to compare your behavior with to trivialize your opinion.
I'm sorry you have a bad case of tragic faggot syndrome, perhaps Dan can come up with an gay celebrity to compare your behavior with to trivialize your opinion.
38
Savage doesn't need anyone to defend him, but when will people realize that his job is not to be your big gay uncle. He's a freakin' opinionated sex columnist, not your 'supportive girlfriend'.
On this topic, he's also right. The world is rough, and yes we should all come together, but we're not going to because before we are gay, or straight, or bi we are human. And thats how we should all be viewed. Why make the big stink about the term 'bi' if you hate labels? Just call yourself a dyke and then sleep with dudes. Makes you sound more interesting and keeps closed minded people guessing.
And please, stop watching MTV. No one will ever take you seriously as an adult if you keep watching TV made for tweens.
On this topic, he's also right. The world is rough, and yes we should all come together, but we're not going to because before we are gay, or straight, or bi we are human. And thats how we should all be viewed. Why make the big stink about the term 'bi' if you hate labels? Just call yourself a dyke and then sleep with dudes. Makes you sound more interesting and keeps closed minded people guessing.
And please, stop watching MTV. No one will ever take you seriously as an adult if you keep watching TV made for tweens.
39
hey guys-- 22 year old bi female (!!!) here... first time i told someone i liked boys and girls i was 12. first person i ever kissed was a boy and the second one was a girl. i've fantasized about both since i started masturbating. so maybe it's a phase but hear me out...
i've been wanting girls my whole life but find them a MILLION times harder to hit on because guys seem to get the whole bi thing. i grew up in the bay area and knew out gay kids by the time i was in middle school, cool parents, etc so i was never scared of coming out as gay for the conventional reasons. I'm terrified of what ann described-- i know i'm not a lesbian. i love girls, lust after girls, pine for them, totally love it the once in a blue moon i actually manage to hook up with one, but i know i'm going to want a guy every once in awhile and as i understand it lesbians are NOT okay with this. i live in santa cruz where there's a huge dyke community and i'm scared to even try to hit on anyone because i know the second i profess any attraction to a guy i would lose all of my awesome new friends and whatever girl i managed to temporarily snag (i know girls this has happened to). So what do i do?
I understand why most lesbians don't want to date a bi girl, especially one who's "curious" but has a real boyfriend or some bullshit like that, but i've wondered my whole life how to actually date a girl without having to shave my head and never look at a guy again.
i know i should find other bi girls like me but believe me i've been trying. they don't exactly wear signs on their necks (maybe we should?)
any advice out there...? bi girls? lesbians? dan?
i've been wanting girls my whole life but find them a MILLION times harder to hit on because guys seem to get the whole bi thing. i grew up in the bay area and knew out gay kids by the time i was in middle school, cool parents, etc so i was never scared of coming out as gay for the conventional reasons. I'm terrified of what ann described-- i know i'm not a lesbian. i love girls, lust after girls, pine for them, totally love it the once in a blue moon i actually manage to hook up with one, but i know i'm going to want a guy every once in awhile and as i understand it lesbians are NOT okay with this. i live in santa cruz where there's a huge dyke community and i'm scared to even try to hit on anyone because i know the second i profess any attraction to a guy i would lose all of my awesome new friends and whatever girl i managed to temporarily snag (i know girls this has happened to). So what do i do?
I understand why most lesbians don't want to date a bi girl, especially one who's "curious" but has a real boyfriend or some bullshit like that, but i've wondered my whole life how to actually date a girl without having to shave my head and never look at a guy again.
i know i should find other bi girls like me but believe me i've been trying. they don't exactly wear signs on their necks (maybe we should?)
any advice out there...? bi girls? lesbians? dan?
40
Aww, give the girl a break with the MTV stuff. She's only 21. At that age, I too, watched every fucking show on TV that had a hint of The Gay. And MTV is a pioneer when it comes to including gays and lesbians in its programing. The Real World has had gay kids since day one. So, the show may suck now, but I still have an affection for it. It was pivotal for me in the '90s.
And, no, I do not watch The Real World now. I haven't since the third season. Too vacuous.
Biphobia. Look bottom line: unless we have a strong preference, just percentage-wise it's more realistic that we will end up in opposite-sex relationships. That's just a given. There are more straight guys out there than lesbians. And--for the most part--they're nicer.
Oh well. I've talked this subject to death, and I'm beyond tired of it. Some gays and lesbians will accept bisexuals. Some won't. Some gays and lesbians will accept transgendered folks. Some won't.
I think that most gays and lesbians don't trust bisexuals for the reasons that Dan gave, but I also think there is another reason: many of them have been hurt by us before. They decided to trust us and date us. But we cheated or left them for someone of the opposite sex. Instead of blaming the person, they blame the orientation.
Never mind that most people cheat. Never mind that most relationships don't last. What hurt more than losing us was losing us to the opposite sex. It seems to me that bisexuals cheat and run off no more or less than any other people of any other orientations. But when we do, it's not because we're just assholes. It's because we're bisexual assholes. Double-standard.
Having said all of that, Dan made some good points. We need to: stop complaining about "biphobia"; stop changing how we identify ourselves when we do settle down; and even if we can adopt straight privilege (i.e., if we do end up in opposite-sex relationships), don't do it! Keep identifying as bisexual. To not do so makes us look like the fakers some of us actually are.
More...
And, no, I do not watch The Real World now. I haven't since the third season. Too vacuous.
Biphobia. Look bottom line: unless we have a strong preference, just percentage-wise it's more realistic that we will end up in opposite-sex relationships. That's just a given. There are more straight guys out there than lesbians. And--for the most part--they're nicer.
Oh well. I've talked this subject to death, and I'm beyond tired of it. Some gays and lesbians will accept bisexuals. Some won't. Some gays and lesbians will accept transgendered folks. Some won't.
I think that most gays and lesbians don't trust bisexuals for the reasons that Dan gave, but I also think there is another reason: many of them have been hurt by us before. They decided to trust us and date us. But we cheated or left them for someone of the opposite sex. Instead of blaming the person, they blame the orientation.
Never mind that most people cheat. Never mind that most relationships don't last. What hurt more than losing us was losing us to the opposite sex. It seems to me that bisexuals cheat and run off no more or less than any other people of any other orientations. But when we do, it's not because we're just assholes. It's because we're bisexual assholes. Double-standard.
Having said all of that, Dan made some good points. We need to: stop complaining about "biphobia"; stop changing how we identify ourselves when we do settle down; and even if we can adopt straight privilege (i.e., if we do end up in opposite-sex relationships), don't do it! Keep identifying as bisexual. To not do so makes us look like the fakers some of us actually are.
41
@30: Too theoretical? So a closeted, terrified gay person who won't sleep with anyone because he's closeted and terrified isn't "really" gay? Or a monogamous, married bisexual who doesn't want to cheat on his wife isn't "really" bi? Who gets to define anyone else's "status"? Your comment is totally indicative of the kind of bigotry in both the gay and straight communities where you define your labels narrowly and demand everyone else rigidly adhere to them.
42
Homosexuality is a socially and politically meaningful term. Bisexuality is a way to let people know you'll swing both ways. It's wildly overused. People under 25 shouldn't agitate about their bisexual identity, and people who're over the age of 25 but have never been in one single LTR with a same sex partner should call themselves bisexual.
The fact is, right now, there is a social and political moment of peculiar importance to adults in same sex relationships or who will only have same sex relationships going forward, and those people have little time for pissy moaners who want to let everyone know how varied their sexuality is. It's fine to call yourself bisexual -- I like both girls and guys, too -- but understand this: if you are not destined to fall into an adult same sex relationship, you are not anywhere near the center of the gay rights issue, and you need to fully grasp that. You can have passionate opinions and know that one day it may shape your life, you can be an advocate, but you are not who the fuss is about, so step off the gays, who've had a much harder road.
The fact is, right now, there is a social and political moment of peculiar importance to adults in same sex relationships or who will only have same sex relationships going forward, and those people have little time for pissy moaners who want to let everyone know how varied their sexuality is. It's fine to call yourself bisexual -- I like both girls and guys, too -- but understand this: if you are not destined to fall into an adult same sex relationship, you are not anywhere near the center of the gay rights issue, and you need to fully grasp that. You can have passionate opinions and know that one day it may shape your life, you can be an advocate, but you are not who the fuss is about, so step off the gays, who've had a much harder road.
43
@30.
Because sexual desire isn't just what our genitals are doing. You're gay whether or not you've gotten laid for six months, right? It's about who we're attracted to, not who we're sleeping with.
This reminds me of straight assholes who say, "I don't care if you're gay, but do you have to talk about it all the time and rub it in my face?"
How about if there's a statute of limitations on bisexuality, and you lose your status if you go, oh, let's say six months without having sex with both genders?
Because sexual desire isn't just what our genitals are doing. You're gay whether or not you've gotten laid for six months, right? It's about who we're attracted to, not who we're sleeping with.
I don't much care which gender you have sex with, but I really REALLY don't care which gender you MIGHT have sex with later. It's all a little too theoretical.
This reminds me of straight assholes who say, "I don't care if you're gay, but do you have to talk about it all the time and rub it in my face?"
45
http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archive…
This is hilarious. Earlier today Savage posted "Advice for Gay Men." It was heartfelt, sympathetic, brilliant, and if you read the comments, overwhelmingly supported by readers. I thought it was excellent too.
It had been a while since he had posted something so supportive, and supported. I thought to myself "Savage should stick to what he's best at - advice to gay men. Because he's a gay man, he's really good at it. It's what he knows best."
And bingo. IN THE SAME DAY, he's faced with responding to someone he is so not: a bisexual woman, and he totally effs it up.
This is hilarious. Earlier today Savage posted "Advice for Gay Men." It was heartfelt, sympathetic, brilliant, and if you read the comments, overwhelmingly supported by readers. I thought it was excellent too.
It had been a while since he had posted something so supportive, and supported. I thought to myself "Savage should stick to what he's best at - advice to gay men. Because he's a gay man, he's really good at it. It's what he knows best."
And bingo. IN THE SAME DAY, he's faced with responding to someone he is so not: a bisexual woman, and he totally effs it up.
47
42
wow what a fucking snob. that's not what her post was about.
life isn't a contest for who's getting shitted on more. next time you complain about not being able to get married, how bout we just say "but children are still starving in Africa, so who the fuck cares whether or not the government will sign a paper saying you are are hitched to some asshole you stick your dick in?"
wow what a fucking snob. that's not what her post was about.
life isn't a contest for who's getting shitted on more. next time you complain about not being able to get married, how bout we just say "but children are still starving in Africa, so who the fuck cares whether or not the government will sign a paper saying you are are hitched to some asshole you stick your dick in?"
48
Dan, what did math do to you that made you hate it so much? Is it because you suck at it?
Start with a simple assumption: 10% of the population is sexually attracted to members of the same sex, and 90% are not sexually attracted to members of the same sex, with the sexes divided evenly (50% of each, and everyone identifies as one sex or another). Take a hypothetical woman, Jane Doe. Jane wants an intimate partner, but has no preference for one sex over the other. The population, divided by gender and potential interest, is split as follows:
45%: Men who would be interested in her.
5%: Women who would be interested in her.
5%: Men who would not be interested in her.
45%: Women who would not be interested in her
Thus, of her potential intimate partners, 90% are men and 10% are women. If she has no preference for either sex over the other and chooses a person at random, Jane is NINE TIMES as likely to choose a man over a woman.
To sum it up: The frequency with which bisexual individuals end up with opposite-sex partners has nothing to do with "luck," as you so derisively claim, and everything to do with simple statistics. Also, stop being such a goddamn biphobic douchebag.
Start with a simple assumption: 10% of the population is sexually attracted to members of the same sex, and 90% are not sexually attracted to members of the same sex, with the sexes divided evenly (50% of each, and everyone identifies as one sex or another). Take a hypothetical woman, Jane Doe. Jane wants an intimate partner, but has no preference for one sex over the other. The population, divided by gender and potential interest, is split as follows:
45%: Men who would be interested in her.
5%: Women who would be interested in her.
5%: Men who would not be interested in her.
45%: Women who would not be interested in her
Thus, of her potential intimate partners, 90% are men and 10% are women. If she has no preference for either sex over the other and chooses a person at random, Jane is NINE TIMES as likely to choose a man over a woman.
To sum it up: The frequency with which bisexual individuals end up with opposite-sex partners has nothing to do with "luck," as you so derisively claim, and everything to do with simple statistics. Also, stop being such a goddamn biphobic douchebag.
49
@42.
I'm sorry to be talking so much about this. I don't want to dominate this thread, but the above quote is vital.
MSM, you are right. And anyone--bisexual or not--who thinks otherwise would be wrong. One of the reasons I fight so hard for civil rights for gays and lesbians is because I know what you say is true.
The discrimination from our government and our churches and our communities is against same sex relationships, and bisexuals who are in opposite sex relationships do not suffer from it, except as your advocates.
I am not in a ltr with a woman. I'm in one with a man. And I recognize all this means: I'm a cliche; I'm privileged. I don't want the privilege. I didn't seek it. But I have it. I could let people think I'm straight, but I didn't go after a man for the privilege, so I continue to "come out" all of the time. I do this not to show everyone that I can "go both ways," but because it's the truth about what and who I am. The queer part of myself means more to me than any privilege I'd have by dropping "the label."
So, I will fight for your civil rights even harder, because I know that if not for this one man, this anomaly--the only man I'd ever choose over another woman (or being alone)--your fight would be mine. So I make it mine too.
But I don't for a second pretend that the discrimination you live with every day is also mine.
if you are not destined to fall into an adult same sex relationship, you are not anywhere near the center of the gay rights issue, and you need to fully grasp that.
I'm sorry to be talking so much about this. I don't want to dominate this thread, but the above quote is vital.
MSM, you are right. And anyone--bisexual or not--who thinks otherwise would be wrong. One of the reasons I fight so hard for civil rights for gays and lesbians is because I know what you say is true.
The discrimination from our government and our churches and our communities is against same sex relationships, and bisexuals who are in opposite sex relationships do not suffer from it, except as your advocates.
I am not in a ltr with a woman. I'm in one with a man. And I recognize all this means: I'm a cliche; I'm privileged. I don't want the privilege. I didn't seek it. But I have it. I could let people think I'm straight, but I didn't go after a man for the privilege, so I continue to "come out" all of the time. I do this not to show everyone that I can "go both ways," but because it's the truth about what and who I am. The queer part of myself means more to me than any privilege I'd have by dropping "the label."
So, I will fight for your civil rights even harder, because I know that if not for this one man, this anomaly--the only man I'd ever choose over another woman (or being alone)--your fight would be mine. So I make it mine too.
But I don't for a second pretend that the discrimination you live with every day is also mine.
50
I just wanted to raise my hand as another "tested bisexual" (25, have been in same-sex LTRs) that has dealt with the same stereotyping, shunning and rude commentary by the gay and lesbian community.
For years I never knew how to "prove" my sexuality to the gay community; finally I realized that those I had to prove it to weren't worth my time. Still, when I read the above bi-supportive comments it made me feel a little less alone. Thanks, everyone.
For years I never knew how to "prove" my sexuality to the gay community; finally I realized that those I had to prove it to weren't worth my time. Still, when I read the above bi-supportive comments it made me feel a little less alone. Thanks, everyone.
53
News flash for those who don't know.
All "reality tv" is to one degree or another scripted and edited! You heard me right. I have friends who were cameramen and producers on such shows. They talk to the participants and tell them which ideas to follow up. Think of it as improv. Christ, they get their SAG cards after three appearances on television. After its shot it edited. Any producer worth their salt knows what they are shooting for and is present for the editing. Soooo, if you are irritated by what someone says on reality tv, complain to the writers.
All "reality tv" is to one degree or another scripted and edited! You heard me right. I have friends who were cameramen and producers on such shows. They talk to the participants and tell them which ideas to follow up. Think of it as improv. Christ, they get their SAG cards after three appearances on television. After its shot it edited. Any producer worth their salt knows what they are shooting for and is present for the editing. Soooo, if you are irritated by what someone says on reality tv, complain to the writers.
54
What about the Tri-sexual people? Huh? Or the Quarto-sexuals? Gheezuz ALL you people are so insensitive. And before you even begin to think this is a joke.... oh don't you get me started.
55
Geez, ya know, Dan really IS being a douchebag on this issue. Sheesh, you'd think he's personally threatened by bisexual women or something. Wonder what's going on in that fucked-up little brain of his that would make him feel that way.
57
Let me start by saying that i am not bisexual, but i am sick and tired of the GLBT community and their bi-phobia. I have friends who are bi, and who happy engage in monogamous relationships with both sexes. (at separate times) though for some, the bisexual label may be a phase, for many others it's not. your can't discount the validity of a statement, such as saying your bisexual based on MTV stereotypes. (i.e tila, spring break shows) these are highly commercialized shows who's only concern is a rating. for years in the GLBT community we have explained to people that we didn't chose to be gay/bi, because why would we want to put up with the hate we receive!? well, why would someone come out as bi if it's not legit? they get the double whammy, including hate within they "support system"! we should be ashamed of ourselves for allowing this to happen, and dan savage should be ashamed that he's promoting the hate! live and let live!
58
Why should the cowardice of some gay people about coming out instantly make all bisexuals suspect? I don't understand how people who've been insulted, treated badly, beaten, shunned, etc. because of their sexual orientation - professed or perceived - could POSSIBLY be so dense as to treat others badly because of those others' professed sexual orientation. How does that even start?
59
OK. First, I don't think that Dan is "promoting hate." Is he justifying biphobia? A little. But he's not about the hate, people. Let's go over what he actually said:
1. The girl is "bellyaching." A little harsh, sure.
2. Her friends, lovers, and relatives are douche bags. Is this not true?
3. She's unfairly painting us all with a broad brush because of said douche bags. This is also true.
4. Stop using The Real World as a reference for her grievances. I think we all agree with this.
5. Actual quote: "I don't doubt for a moment that your bisexuality will stand the test of time." Is he sincere? Only The Shadow knows. But it's a nice sentiment.
6. The claim of "bisexuality" often demands credulity from the many gays and lesbians who were frightened and confused enough to lie about themselves in the past. It's not fair, but there is is. Dan is an apologist for these doubters, it's true. But this isn't "hate," or the "promotion" of it.
7. Finally, Dan's snark makes an appearance. He's been doing this for years. He will continue to do it. Reassuring straights that they should go ahead and get married, but being snide to bisexuals who do it is a double-standard and it's unfair.
But it's not hate.
1. The girl is "bellyaching." A little harsh, sure.
2. Her friends, lovers, and relatives are douche bags. Is this not true?
3. She's unfairly painting us all with a broad brush because of said douche bags. This is also true.
4. Stop using The Real World as a reference for her grievances. I think we all agree with this.
5. Actual quote: "I don't doubt for a moment that your bisexuality will stand the test of time." Is he sincere? Only The Shadow knows. But it's a nice sentiment.
6. The claim of "bisexuality" often demands credulity from the many gays and lesbians who were frightened and confused enough to lie about themselves in the past. It's not fair, but there is is. Dan is an apologist for these doubters, it's true. But this isn't "hate," or the "promotion" of it.
7. Finally, Dan's snark makes an appearance. He's been doing this for years. He will continue to do it. Reassuring straights that they should go ahead and get married, but being snide to bisexuals who do it is a double-standard and it's unfair.
But it's not hate.
60
56 - Love this season of RW! Also, I have to say, none of the people I'm close to in life would care how you define yourself, SBW, let alone pressure you to have 3-ways! Invest in some healthier friendships, tell your family that what you do in bed is off limits. Maybe you won't be so hurt by a comment that was maybe ignorant and insensitive, but probably not intended to be hurtful. Don't feel like you have to justify or explain your sexuality to anyone unless they are a potential romantic interest.
62
Well, as a straight person who is both a friend of gay and bi people as well as a hardcore Dan fan: Jesus fucking Christ, Dan, shut the fuck up, you fucking idiot. You have no ability to imagine life beyond your own experiences and it is infuriating, especially considering that people of all orientations write to you for advice. This is a huge blind spot on your part, and your biases prevent you from giving adviceon this subject, so please don't, all right? Your binary views on sexuality are impossibly stupid. Please only give advice on your expertise from now on.
63
Jade,
What a wonderful series of comments on this issue -- and thank you for highlighting my post. I'm attracted to men and women, but you expressed what I was getting at so well. I just wanted to offer you support since you were concerned about pissing into the bandwidth.
What a wonderful series of comments on this issue -- and thank you for highlighting my post. I'm attracted to men and women, but you expressed what I was getting at so well. I just wanted to offer you support since you were concerned about pissing into the bandwidth.
64
Your batting average is pretty good, Dan, but you sure struck out on this one.
In one breath you stereotype bisexuals based on Tila Tequila, in the next you condemn those who deny gay rights based on equally retarded stereotypes. Guess what, Dan, attention whores come in all different sexual orientations. (Hi, Chris Crocker!)
If this woman must accept a bunch of bullshit from the gay community, does that mean gays must also accept bullshit from Rick Warren and company? Because, you know, it's "understandable"? Yeah, sure, whatever.
Being part of an oppressed minority isn't an excuse to shut your brain off and act like a hypocritical asshole.
In one breath you stereotype bisexuals based on Tila Tequila, in the next you condemn those who deny gay rights based on equally retarded stereotypes. Guess what, Dan, attention whores come in all different sexual orientations. (Hi, Chris Crocker!)
If this woman must accept a bunch of bullshit from the gay community, does that mean gays must also accept bullshit from Rick Warren and company? Because, you know, it's "understandable"? Yeah, sure, whatever.
Being part of an oppressed minority isn't an excuse to shut your brain off and act like a hypocritical asshole.
65
Yep, Dan's being a douche. Quit writing to him for advice.
I'm a Bi-Positive Queer (R) or BPQ for short. That means I get it. I'm one the few queer guys that is able to use my own experience of being oppressed to try to put myself in other people's shoes . . . like bisexual's. I don't have a problem with people being bi, it's beautiful. And bi people have their own unique dharma (path in life). You go girl!
Sort of like the way gay people (and gay guys especially, like Dan) start whining about when black people discriminate on the queers when they 'should' be understanding how not to oppress the queers because of how black people have been oppressed - or whatever . . .
Yep, it has always amazed me why the gays and dykes are so bitchy to the bi's. Sorry my sisters and brothers are such crackpots when it comes to dealing with people who have a sexual orientation different than theirs . . .
I'm a Bi-Positive Queer (R) or BPQ for short. That means I get it. I'm one the few queer guys that is able to use my own experience of being oppressed to try to put myself in other people's shoes . . . like bisexual's. I don't have a problem with people being bi, it's beautiful. And bi people have their own unique dharma (path in life). You go girl!
Sort of like the way gay people (and gay guys especially, like Dan) start whining about when black people discriminate on the queers when they 'should' be understanding how not to oppress the queers because of how black people have been oppressed - or whatever . . .
Yep, it has always amazed me why the gays and dykes are so bitchy to the bi's. Sorry my sisters and brothers are such crackpots when it comes to dealing with people who have a sexual orientation different than theirs . . .
66
I have showed this slog entry to so many people. I would have commented, but others already did it much more eloquently/snarkily than I could have. (I'm pro-bisexual, by the way)
69
Uh, it's not "spooky" that we often end up in opposite-sex partnerships. For at least two reasons.
- Society facilitates opposite-sex relationships. Eg. a man is more likely to hit on me, because of the presumption of straightness. And then after getting together, life is easier in an opposite-sex relationship, and less stress = greater chance of longetivity. This has nothing to do with the reality of our attraction to multiple genders.
- Gay people are bi-phobic. The only partner I've had who gave me shit about my sexual orientation was a lesbian. None of the men I've dated, straight or bi, have made an issue of it. I do date bi girls, but eliminating a lot of lesbians from my dating pool due to their issues with bisexuality increases the odds that I end up with men.
- Society facilitates opposite-sex relationships. Eg. a man is more likely to hit on me, because of the presumption of straightness. And then after getting together, life is easier in an opposite-sex relationship, and less stress = greater chance of longetivity. This has nothing to do with the reality of our attraction to multiple genders.
- Gay people are bi-phobic. The only partner I've had who gave me shit about my sexual orientation was a lesbian. None of the men I've dated, straight or bi, have made an issue of it. I do date bi girls, but eliminating a lot of lesbians from my dating pool due to their issues with bisexuality increases the odds that I end up with men.
71
@1-65
All of the above bears out that folks can and by-and-large do choose to engage in whatever sexual behavior they want.
Some queers have taken a huge stake in the political position of "I AM queer" (as opposed to the reality of "I do queer") and they resent Bisexuals who put truth to that lie.
In non-Western (and previous Western) cultures sexuality is/was fluid and people who engage(d) in homosexual behavior move(d) in and out and between freely.
The notion that one must be hardwired 'queer' is a fairly recent distortion.
All of the above bears out that folks can and by-and-large do choose to engage in whatever sexual behavior they want.
Some queers have taken a huge stake in the political position of "I AM queer" (as opposed to the reality of "I do queer") and they resent Bisexuals who put truth to that lie.
In non-Western (and previous Western) cultures sexuality is/was fluid and people who engage(d) in homosexual behavior move(d) in and out and between freely.
The notion that one must be hardwired 'queer' is a fairly recent distortion.
72
Dear Dan,
I'm a young "bisexual" woman and you're a snarky sex advice columnist. I hate the world and especially the gay and lesbian world for giving me a hard time. Make them stop? Or say something to make them stop? Please make it completely considerate, ignore any empirical facts which might upset me, and just make me feel better about how you and your gay friends and teh lesbians are assholes?
Thanks you so much.
Or not.
I'm a young "bisexual" woman and you're a snarky sex advice columnist. I hate the world and especially the gay and lesbian world for giving me a hard time. Make them stop? Or say something to make them stop? Please make it completely considerate, ignore any empirical facts which might upset me, and just make me feel better about how you and your gay friends and teh lesbians are assholes?
Thanks you so much.
Or not.
73
Oh, additionally:
You have said that men are assholes and women are crazy. You are correct. And, given the choice, I prefer assholes. I'm sure I'm not alone. :D
You have said that men are assholes and women are crazy. You are correct. And, given the choice, I prefer assholes. I'm sure I'm not alone. :D
74
Honestly, I didn't find Dan's response offending at all. And, I'm a 20 year old bisexual female. I feel its interesting that in light of how most people identifying as bi felt the need to defend their bisexuality by talking about the relationships with *insert gender here* and how that proved they were a real bisexual person, while arguing that bi people shouldn't do that, you should just find different friends.
I mean, its true that there are a lot of people who give crap to bisexual people, especially bisexual college girls, because of the tendency for drunk college girls to make out with other girls, with no intention of doing anything further. But, you wouldn't hear many of those girls identifying as bi. Dan was really just pointing out that many gay and lesbian individuals have used bisexuality as a stepping stone (and many have not), so they may be skeptical, but if they're skeptical, what does that really matter to you? He was answering a question as to why that might be the case, not necessarily saying that yes that should be how it is. And as much as you could assume that a 20 year old hasn't had the test of time for bisexuality, one might have just "started" being bi when they're 30, or 40, and yet because of an older age the time test seems better, but I've known since I was in middle school that I've been attracted to both genders.
It seems interesting to me, that in a lot of these comments, the LGBT communities wholeness has been brought into play, with how bisexual people aren't accepted into the community, when it seems to me, that although there is some lack of acceptance, trans people face much more adversity both in and out of the community. Even major LGBT groups, like the HRC, supported taking the T out of ENDA, to try and get it to pass. The fact that they were willing to just compromise their "beliefs" generally would show that they didn't care for them that much anyways.
And to the people saying that bisexual people take advantage of privileges by marrying people of the opposite gender and other instances of heterosexual privilege completely ignore the fact that a very large percentage of the LGBT community take advantage of some form of privilege from race or class or gender, and yet that privilege is okay, but its not okay for bisexual people to take advantage of their semi-straight privileges?
I do try to be out regardless of what gender the person I'm dating identifies as. At the very least, if you're aware of the privileges you have, then thats a step in not trying to necessarily take advantage of them. I spent hundreds of hours trying to prevent the passing of the gay marriage ban to my states constitution. I cried the night it passed, with only 1 county voting against it. But, that doesn't mean I've given up or I will give up just because maybe someday I'll want to marry a guy instead. Theres just as good of a chance it'll be a girl.
More...
I mean, its true that there are a lot of people who give crap to bisexual people, especially bisexual college girls, because of the tendency for drunk college girls to make out with other girls, with no intention of doing anything further. But, you wouldn't hear many of those girls identifying as bi. Dan was really just pointing out that many gay and lesbian individuals have used bisexuality as a stepping stone (and many have not), so they may be skeptical, but if they're skeptical, what does that really matter to you? He was answering a question as to why that might be the case, not necessarily saying that yes that should be how it is. And as much as you could assume that a 20 year old hasn't had the test of time for bisexuality, one might have just "started" being bi when they're 30, or 40, and yet because of an older age the time test seems better, but I've known since I was in middle school that I've been attracted to both genders.
It seems interesting to me, that in a lot of these comments, the LGBT communities wholeness has been brought into play, with how bisexual people aren't accepted into the community, when it seems to me, that although there is some lack of acceptance, trans people face much more adversity both in and out of the community. Even major LGBT groups, like the HRC, supported taking the T out of ENDA, to try and get it to pass. The fact that they were willing to just compromise their "beliefs" generally would show that they didn't care for them that much anyways.
And to the people saying that bisexual people take advantage of privileges by marrying people of the opposite gender and other instances of heterosexual privilege completely ignore the fact that a very large percentage of the LGBT community take advantage of some form of privilege from race or class or gender, and yet that privilege is okay, but its not okay for bisexual people to take advantage of their semi-straight privileges?
I do try to be out regardless of what gender the person I'm dating identifies as. At the very least, if you're aware of the privileges you have, then thats a step in not trying to necessarily take advantage of them. I spent hundreds of hours trying to prevent the passing of the gay marriage ban to my states constitution. I cried the night it passed, with only 1 county voting against it. But, that doesn't mean I've given up or I will give up just because maybe someday I'll want to marry a guy instead. Theres just as good of a chance it'll be a girl.
75
In my own group of friends... Aside from my sister, I think I'm the only 'real' bisexual girl I know. My sister is, probably because she's related to my 'gayness' or whatever.
But it's hard to measure, I guess. Bisexuals may fantasize, but if an outsider can't 'radar' it, or the bisexual doesn't have a same-sex partner..... Well, it's up to personal dispute. I don't think any of my friends went through the strife I did as a young teen, but still claim to be interested in the same sex, even though I sort of beg to differ.
Whatever.
But it's hard to measure, I guess. Bisexuals may fantasize, but if an outsider can't 'radar' it, or the bisexual doesn't have a same-sex partner..... Well, it's up to personal dispute. I don't think any of my friends went through the strife I did as a young teen, but still claim to be interested in the same sex, even though I sort of beg to differ.
Whatever.
76
aaaaaah! I'm so mad right now! And here I thought biphobia was only this strong in the Austrian community. Because frankly, the Austrian queer community sucks majorly, so them treating me like shit is little of no surprise to me. But I'm beginning to realise that this is, apparently, a universal problem.
And every time it happens I'm thinking: 'You gotta be kidding me?' I can still not grasp why and how a community that knows discrimination doesn't think twice about discriminating against one of their own! And I am, one of their own... though I'm growing more and more reluctant of it.
Incidentally, straight people rarely discriminate against me... On the other hand I've had to take so much shit from lesbians, mostly, and some gay guys, it's unbelievable. It's kind of hard to argue like a grown-up against biphobia because people like you, Dan, trigger only *facepalm*-moments. You're an insensitive, intolerant, unaccepting litte twat - and I'm wondering if someone should maybe talkt to the person who gave you this job as an "advice"-columnist. Jerks like you really shouldn't get so much airtime...
And every time it happens I'm thinking: 'You gotta be kidding me?' I can still not grasp why and how a community that knows discrimination doesn't think twice about discriminating against one of their own! And I am, one of their own... though I'm growing more and more reluctant of it.
Incidentally, straight people rarely discriminate against me... On the other hand I've had to take so much shit from lesbians, mostly, and some gay guys, it's unbelievable. It's kind of hard to argue like a grown-up against biphobia because people like you, Dan, trigger only *facepalm*-moments. You're an insensitive, intolerant, unaccepting litte twat - and I'm wondering if someone should maybe talkt to the person who gave you this job as an "advice"-columnist. Jerks like you really shouldn't get so much airtime...
77
@43, the reason my view strikes you that way is because you're young and lack experience in the wider world. The reality is, no one really cares who you are attracted to, not because we are hateful bigots but because it's not that interesting to us. To you, sure; and, although this seems to cause bisexuals huge amount of grief, you're not meaningfully discriminated against, as bisexuals -- only when you are gay.
Nobody here, not even Dan, hates bisexuals. People just get a little tired of the gender-studies drama scenes. They are natural, as young people start to think about the world and how they fit in, but you don't get any scouting badges for being discriminated against, and people who really ARE discriminated against are sometimes guilty of rolling their eyes a little when the drama gets played out.
And, whether you like it or not, LUG, and lapsed bisexuality, is a real phenomenon, and is many times more common than real lifelong bisexuality. 25 is nothing; where are all the 40-year-old bisexuals? At some point, they tend to pick a team. It's usually the straight team. And I think what gay people want from straight people is "we support your political struggle for rights", not "I'm one too, I slept with a girl in college, look, here's my badge".
It's unfortunate, but it sometimes plays out like this:
"I'M BISEXUAL!"
"That's nice, dear."
"DIDN'T YOU HEAR ME? LGBT! STOP THE OPPRESSION!"
"All right, dear. Do you have your scarf? It's supposed to be cold out."
"WE'RE HERE, WE'RE QUEER, GET USED TO IT!"
"I will, sweetheart. Did you see the lunch I left for you in the fridge?"
"LOVE KNOWS NO GENDER! STOP SIDING WITH THE PATRIARCHY! YOU CAN'T HOLD ME DOWN ANY LONGER! SEX IS ABOUT FREEDOM!"
"I'm very happy to hear that, dear. Here are your mittens. Will that nice boy Tommy be coming over later?"
TOMMY'S BISEXUAL TOO! WE'RE NOT ASHAMED! WE LOVE EACH OTHER FOR WHO WE ARE, NOT WHO YOU SEE US AS WITH YOUR HOMOPHOBIC BULLSHIT! YOU CAN'T CONTROL OUR BODIES!"
"That's good, sweetie. Should I pick up some of those cookies you like at the store for dessert? Tommy's gluten-intolerant, isn't he? Have a nice day at school."
More...
Nobody here, not even Dan, hates bisexuals. People just get a little tired of the gender-studies drama scenes. They are natural, as young people start to think about the world and how they fit in, but you don't get any scouting badges for being discriminated against, and people who really ARE discriminated against are sometimes guilty of rolling their eyes a little when the drama gets played out.
And, whether you like it or not, LUG, and lapsed bisexuality, is a real phenomenon, and is many times more common than real lifelong bisexuality. 25 is nothing; where are all the 40-year-old bisexuals? At some point, they tend to pick a team. It's usually the straight team. And I think what gay people want from straight people is "we support your political struggle for rights", not "I'm one too, I slept with a girl in college, look, here's my badge".
It's unfortunate, but it sometimes plays out like this:
"I'M BISEXUAL!"
"That's nice, dear."
"DIDN'T YOU HEAR ME? LGBT! STOP THE OPPRESSION!"
"All right, dear. Do you have your scarf? It's supposed to be cold out."
"WE'RE HERE, WE'RE QUEER, GET USED TO IT!"
"I will, sweetheart. Did you see the lunch I left for you in the fridge?"
"LOVE KNOWS NO GENDER! STOP SIDING WITH THE PATRIARCHY! YOU CAN'T HOLD ME DOWN ANY LONGER! SEX IS ABOUT FREEDOM!"
"I'm very happy to hear that, dear. Here are your mittens. Will that nice boy Tommy be coming over later?"
TOMMY'S BISEXUAL TOO! WE'RE NOT ASHAMED! WE LOVE EACH OTHER FOR WHO WE ARE, NOT WHO YOU SEE US AS WITH YOUR HOMOPHOBIC BULLSHIT! YOU CAN'T CONTROL OUR BODIES!"
"That's good, sweetie. Should I pick up some of those cookies you like at the store for dessert? Tommy's gluten-intolerant, isn't he? Have a nice day at school."
78
Dan,
Although I see the point you are trying to make, I am also annoyed at the prejudice against bis in the LGBT "community": it would be nice if your response to a letter like this one, instead of explaining the prejudice, tried to undo it.
I have no idea what to call myself. I have been an out lesbian since I was 17, I lost friends for it, got threatened and insulted, I had drama from my parents who tried to send me to therapy and even stopped giving me money during college for a while. I have had to explain and be patient day in, day out, I've volunteered for actions, been to every single march, I've put my very small-level political carreer in danger because I never stopped advocating equal rights even when it was taboo and have never been in the closet.
On the Kinsey scale I would have been classified as 6 until a few months ago. I am currently with a guy, and allowing myself to recognize what I was feeling for him was one of the hardest things I've done. I will not get married, not as long as I couldn't marry him if he was a she; I have never stopped being an activist on LGBT and feminist issues, my parents' acceptance of my boyfriend makes me puke. I am still predominantly attracted to women, and growl if anyone assumes I am straight.
Some of my "friends" seem to feel I am being traitorous or that all I've been through and am still going through somehow disappeared, as if all my experience and all my actions magically changed. It makes me sad that people I counted as friends would let their prejudice against bis- whatever the reason, dammit, I've known them for years- be stronger than their respect for me. Losing "friends" at 30 depresses me more than when I lost "friends" at 17.
So ok, i'm whining; but Dan I am sure you could do better. When people complain about homophobia, I don't seem to recall you telling them that they are being oversensitive and that some straight people may have personal reasons for being bigoted idiots that need to be understood.
And Dan, for the record: Indeed, bis can marry SOME of the people they have relationships with, or can "pass" for straight more easily (not so sure about the latter, though). They however are also prevented from marrying anyone they want, and have to deal with homophobia as well as biphobia (the added bonus ), because bis are also targeted by homophobic discourse and actions (when gay-bashers see two guys kissing, it's not like they're going to stop and ask "are you gay or bisexual?"). I think we should encourage bis to be active inside the LGBT community, instead of treating them like kiddies or double agents: if there is no support to be found for bis in our community, then we are actively driving them away and pushing them to "choose" to be untrue to their orientation. In effect, by pooh-poohing the feelings of rejection some bis express, we are pushing them to choose the path of least resistance.
More...
Although I see the point you are trying to make, I am also annoyed at the prejudice against bis in the LGBT "community": it would be nice if your response to a letter like this one, instead of explaining the prejudice, tried to undo it.
I have no idea what to call myself. I have been an out lesbian since I was 17, I lost friends for it, got threatened and insulted, I had drama from my parents who tried to send me to therapy and even stopped giving me money during college for a while. I have had to explain and be patient day in, day out, I've volunteered for actions, been to every single march, I've put my very small-level political carreer in danger because I never stopped advocating equal rights even when it was taboo and have never been in the closet.
On the Kinsey scale I would have been classified as 6 until a few months ago. I am currently with a guy, and allowing myself to recognize what I was feeling for him was one of the hardest things I've done. I will not get married, not as long as I couldn't marry him if he was a she; I have never stopped being an activist on LGBT and feminist issues, my parents' acceptance of my boyfriend makes me puke. I am still predominantly attracted to women, and growl if anyone assumes I am straight.
Some of my "friends" seem to feel I am being traitorous or that all I've been through and am still going through somehow disappeared, as if all my experience and all my actions magically changed. It makes me sad that people I counted as friends would let their prejudice against bis- whatever the reason, dammit, I've known them for years- be stronger than their respect for me. Losing "friends" at 30 depresses me more than when I lost "friends" at 17.
So ok, i'm whining; but Dan I am sure you could do better. When people complain about homophobia, I don't seem to recall you telling them that they are being oversensitive and that some straight people may have personal reasons for being bigoted idiots that need to be understood.
And Dan, for the record: Indeed, bis can marry SOME of the people they have relationships with, or can "pass" for straight more easily (not so sure about the latter, though). They however are also prevented from marrying anyone they want, and have to deal with homophobia as well as biphobia (the added bonus ), because bis are also targeted by homophobic discourse and actions (when gay-bashers see two guys kissing, it's not like they're going to stop and ask "are you gay or bisexual?"). I think we should encourage bis to be active inside the LGBT community, instead of treating them like kiddies or double agents: if there is no support to be found for bis in our community, then we are actively driving them away and pushing them to "choose" to be untrue to their orientation. In effect, by pooh-poohing the feelings of rejection some bis express, we are pushing them to choose the path of least resistance.
80
Why don't we stop labeling people, enjoy our diversity and stop fighting over the things we can't change. I believe that if more people were truly honest with themselves a lot more of us would admit to non-exclusive attraction. It's this polarisation of sexuality into hetro and homo that creates the problem.
Why is it so difficult to believe that if there are two extremes of exclusive hetro- and homo - sexuality that there is a "middleground" of bisexuality? That's like saying people are either really smart or really stupid and there's nothing inbetween.
Why is it so difficult to believe that if there are two extremes of exclusive hetro- and homo - sexuality that there is a "middleground" of bisexuality? That's like saying people are either really smart or really stupid and there's nothing inbetween.
81
@77. I'm surprised you got that impression about me from my posts. I really don't know how to respond, so I won't.
Except . . . I'm not young. Not even close.
Except . . . I'm not young. Not even close.
82
Ugh, the whole bisexual thing again.
Dan is 100% correct when he says that many gays and lesbians take their first, tentative step out of the closet by labeling themselves as bisexual. For whatever reason, straights find bisexuals less threatening than homosexuals - and some even consider it "exotic".
I have yet to meet a genuine bisexual in my 38 years on this planet. Most of the "bisexuals" that I have known are either really gay (see above) or are just heteros experimenting with gay sex. I suppose that there are some truly 50/50 bisexual people out there, but in my observation they are as rare as hen's teeth.
As a gay man, I have a gripe about "bisexuals". As Dan wrote in his column, bisexuals usually end up with an opposite-sex partner. I think that the reasoning is obvious: it is just easier to go along with the heterosexual majority. Bisexual women are a straight guy's wet dream. Bisexual guys are seen as "not really gay, cuz they like pussy too."
Call me "biphobic" if you like, but I have had more than my share of heartbreak with so-called "bisexual" guys. In the end, they always leave for a woman - even if they still come back sniffing around because their girlfriends simply cannot give head properly! ;)
Dan is 100% correct when he says that many gays and lesbians take their first, tentative step out of the closet by labeling themselves as bisexual. For whatever reason, straights find bisexuals less threatening than homosexuals - and some even consider it "exotic".
I have yet to meet a genuine bisexual in my 38 years on this planet. Most of the "bisexuals" that I have known are either really gay (see above) or are just heteros experimenting with gay sex. I suppose that there are some truly 50/50 bisexual people out there, but in my observation they are as rare as hen's teeth.
As a gay man, I have a gripe about "bisexuals". As Dan wrote in his column, bisexuals usually end up with an opposite-sex partner. I think that the reasoning is obvious: it is just easier to go along with the heterosexual majority. Bisexual women are a straight guy's wet dream. Bisexual guys are seen as "not really gay, cuz they like pussy too."
Call me "biphobic" if you like, but I have had more than my share of heartbreak with so-called "bisexual" guys. In the end, they always leave for a woman - even if they still come back sniffing around because their girlfriends simply cannot give head properly! ;)
83
Fnarf @#77.... RIGHT ON DUDE!
"...although this seems to cause bisexuals huge amount of grief, you're not meaningfully discriminated against, as bisexuals -- only when you are gay."
I have said this many times myself. Thanks for laying it down here.
"...although this seems to cause bisexuals huge amount of grief, you're not meaningfully discriminated against, as bisexuals -- only when you are gay."
I have said this many times myself. Thanks for laying it down here.
84
You need to set some boundaries for your so called friends. "thanks for your opinion but this is a personal matter I don't wish to discuss" should do it.
85
their eyes are all asking
are you in, or are you out
and i think, oh man,
what is this about?
Dan's an ass. This is not the first or last bigoted comment he'll make towards Bi-sexual people. How anyone can be surprised at this point is beyond me.
are you in, or are you out
and i think, oh man,
what is this about?
Dan's an ass. This is not the first or last bigoted comment he'll make towards Bi-sexual people. How anyone can be surprised at this point is beyond me.
86
Fnarf @30: I agree.
For what it's worth, it sounds very similar to a discussion of dual-citizenship.
For what it's worth, it sounds very similar to a discussion of dual-citizenship.
87
If one is secure in his or her sexuality, gay, straight, bi, (I've never met a bi person, but I suppose they exist.) or whatever, how others want to define that person doesn't matter to that person.
Someone not so sure might get all defensive, because while they claim to know their sexuality, they really know that they are denying something about themselves.
Ask yourself, why does it bother you so much.
Someone not so sure might get all defensive, because while they claim to know their sexuality, they really know that they are denying something about themselves.
Ask yourself, why does it bother you so much.
89
@87
Bullshit. Tell any queer person that their sexual orientation is a "choice" and they'll tear your head off (because the implication is that it's not a real thing, that their stated experience is a lie, that they choose the harassment, etc).
Bi people get tired of being called liars, essentially. Being called that (out of the side of his mouth, repeatedly) by our otherwise heroic national spokesgay is bonus annoying.
It's not that I don't understand where people are coming from, and I would blather on about it endlessly if I thought anybody would actually read it. But that doesn't justify the attitude.
Bullshit. Tell any queer person that their sexual orientation is a "choice" and they'll tear your head off (because the implication is that it's not a real thing, that their stated experience is a lie, that they choose the harassment, etc).
Bi people get tired of being called liars, essentially. Being called that (out of the side of his mouth, repeatedly) by our otherwise heroic national spokesgay is bonus annoying.
It's not that I don't understand where people are coming from, and I would blather on about it endlessly if I thought anybody would actually read it. But that doesn't justify the attitude.
90
When i walked down the street holding a boy's hand, the basher did not check first to see if i also like girls.
I can lose my job for being a fag, straight america does not give men a pass when it comes to liking cock.
The state chooses which of my partners i am allowed to marry.
I was called gayboy and shoved around my entire youth. I grew up being called a "limp-wristed little faggot" by my own father.
Then i get told by the gay community that i am not one of them, i do not belong, i do not exist. The contributions my friends and i make working toward equal rights are swept under the rug. I am told i do not exist by queers using the exact same words against me that are used against them. Phase, confused, diseases, the language is the same.
Not meaningfully discriminated against?
Fuck. You.
"...although this seems to cause bisexuals huge amount of grief, you're not meaningfully discriminated against, as bisexuals -- only when you are gay."
When i walked down the street holding a boy's hand, the basher did not check first to see if i also like girls.
I can lose my job for being a fag, straight america does not give men a pass when it comes to liking cock.
The state chooses which of my partners i am allowed to marry.
I was called gayboy and shoved around my entire youth. I grew up being called a "limp-wristed little faggot" by my own father.
Then i get told by the gay community that i am not one of them, i do not belong, i do not exist. The contributions my friends and i make working toward equal rights are swept under the rug. I am told i do not exist by queers using the exact same words against me that are used against them. Phase, confused, diseases, the language is the same.
Not meaningfully discriminated against?
Fuck. You.
91
Poor Bi's
You date the gay's, more often than not end up with a straight partner, and then you wonder why you can't get support from your gay 'allies'?
When the personal practice doesn't align with the public theory something has to give.
@77 FTW.
You date the gay's, more often than not end up with a straight partner, and then you wonder why you can't get support from your gay 'allies'?
When the personal practice doesn't align with the public theory something has to give.
@77 FTW.
92
@90 There isn't really a 'gay' community. There is only the communities you make. Pick and choose. Nowhere will you be accepted for all your choices all the time.
We have somehow brought into the right wing theory that we are one community on mass with combined goals and a 'secret agenda'. We aren't, and we have never been.
We have somehow brought into the right wing theory that we are one community on mass with combined goals and a 'secret agenda'. We aren't, and we have never been.
93
@87.
Rob, I guess the same reason it bothers gays and lesbians when people try to say their orientation is really just a "lifestyle choice." Or when people try to say that transgendered people are really just "gay." It bothers us because it's an accusation that we're either delusional or lying. I don't know if that's what people mean to do. I don't want to accuse them of anything. But I feel safe in speaking for others and say that's how it feels to us.
But honestly, these conversations don't anger me, or even bother me. I enter them in order to try to explain things more clearly, but in the end I really do get where the so-called "biphobics" are coming from (I don't like that word, "biphobic." It's not really fair). For the most part, I don't think the comments here are mean or hate-filled (which is why Fnarf's post to me surprised me so much; I never accused anyone of "hating").
I don't open discussions on bisexuality with my friends or family (I've not linked this thread to my Facebook, for example) because what's the point? It's a conversation that's just going to go in circles, and it's going to be very predictable. But I don't find the comments or jokes all that offensive, because they have some truth to them. That doesn't mean they're True, however. There's a difference. It's subtle, but it's there.
And I'll also add that--except for threads like this one--I don't experience sarcasm or doubt about my orientation in my life. I'm extremely active in gay civil rights in my local community. I write a lot too. The gays and lesbians I work side-by-side with are affectionate, friendly, welcoming, and genuine with me. I am much more comfortable around gays and lesbians than I am straight people. I've never felt unwelcome.
Not all of us have chips on our shoulders.
More...
why does it bother you so much?
Rob, I guess the same reason it bothers gays and lesbians when people try to say their orientation is really just a "lifestyle choice." Or when people try to say that transgendered people are really just "gay." It bothers us because it's an accusation that we're either delusional or lying. I don't know if that's what people mean to do. I don't want to accuse them of anything. But I feel safe in speaking for others and say that's how it feels to us.
But honestly, these conversations don't anger me, or even bother me. I enter them in order to try to explain things more clearly, but in the end I really do get where the so-called "biphobics" are coming from (I don't like that word, "biphobic." It's not really fair). For the most part, I don't think the comments here are mean or hate-filled (which is why Fnarf's post to me surprised me so much; I never accused anyone of "hating").
I don't open discussions on bisexuality with my friends or family (I've not linked this thread to my Facebook, for example) because what's the point? It's a conversation that's just going to go in circles, and it's going to be very predictable. But I don't find the comments or jokes all that offensive, because they have some truth to them. That doesn't mean they're True, however. There's a difference. It's subtle, but it's there.
And I'll also add that--except for threads like this one--I don't experience sarcasm or doubt about my orientation in my life. I'm extremely active in gay civil rights in my local community. I write a lot too. The gays and lesbians I work side-by-side with are affectionate, friendly, welcoming, and genuine with me. I am much more comfortable around gays and lesbians than I am straight people. I've never felt unwelcome.
Not all of us have chips on our shoulders.
94
91.
Why does the support end if/when we end up with a straight partner?
Is it because you've experienced an end to our support when we enter into opposite sex relationships?
I'm asking this sincerely, Donut.
You date the gay's, more often than not end up with a straight partner, and then you wonder why you can't get support from your gay 'allies'?
Why does the support end if/when we end up with a straight partner?
Is it because you've experienced an end to our support when we enter into opposite sex relationships?
I'm asking this sincerely, Donut.
95
@91
Bitter much? Or else you suck at math too (see #48). The fact that our next partner after you is probably somebody opposite-sex is nothing personal. Just a statistical likelihood. Yes, we do still expect you to stand up for us just like we stand up for you.
All of you sipping your haterade. . . I wish you could listen to my mother defending your rights and character to her small-town friends, getting all PFLAG on their asses. And doing so because her bisexual daughter is queer enough to make a mamma worry about the world she lives in.
Bitter much? Or else you suck at math too (see #48). The fact that our next partner after you is probably somebody opposite-sex is nothing personal. Just a statistical likelihood. Yes, we do still expect you to stand up for us just like we stand up for you.
All of you sipping your haterade. . . I wish you could listen to my mother defending your rights and character to her small-town friends, getting all PFLAG on their asses. And doing so because her bisexual daughter is queer enough to make a mamma worry about the world she lives in.
96
89, & 93, It does not bother me when people say being gay is a choice because I know it is not, at least for me. It bothers me when they try to use the choice argument as a reason to deny civil rights. Even if it was a choice, it's not a wrong or immoral choice, and it's still no reason to deny me the right to marry who I want. Someone telling me I chose to be gay bothers no more than if someone called me a space alien, because I know who I am.
97
@96
How wonderfully evolved of you!
The fact that I don't appreciate all of the hater tots being fed to me -- mostly by gays -- doesn't mean that I'm insecure. Get over yourself.
How wonderfully evolved of you!
The fact that I don't appreciate all of the hater tots being fed to me -- mostly by gays -- doesn't mean that I'm insecure. Get over yourself.
98
But Rob, the only reason they're making that argument is to deny you of your civil rights! You can't really separate the two. Or, I guess you can, but it's kind of pointless.
And, though it might not bother you to be told that you're essentially a liar, can you understand why it might bother other gays and lesbians? And if not, do you spend a lot of time telling them that the reason they're "bothered" is because they're "not sure about themselves" or they're "denying something about themselves?" Or do you just use this tactic on bi's?
And, though it might not bother you to be told that you're essentially a liar, can you understand why it might bother other gays and lesbians? And if not, do you spend a lot of time telling them that the reason they're "bothered" is because they're "not sure about themselves" or they're "denying something about themselves?" Or do you just use this tactic on bi's?
99
And, YES I AM GROUCHY. :mad:
I need coffee. . . but I have Ethiopian AND Sumatran, and it's so hard to choose. . . maybe I'll stir 'em together.
I need coffee. . . but I have Ethiopian AND Sumatran, and it's so hard to choose. . . maybe I'll stir 'em together.
100
Violet, don't mix them! You'll only dilute two excellent brews! Today, have Sumatran. That's what I'd have, anyway.
101
"and i'm scared to even try to hit on anyone because i know the second i profess any attraction to a guy i would lose all of my awesome new friends and whatever girl i managed to temporarily snag."
#39, why would you "profess any attraction to a guy" if you were trying to "snag" a girl?
#69, maybe your girlfriend gave you shit about being bisexual because you say things like,
"Society facilitates opposite-sex relationships. Eg. a man is more likely to hit on me, because of the presumption of straightness. And then after getting together, life is easier in an opposite-sex relationship, and less stress = greater chance of longetivity."
If you think a relationship with a guy will last longer because you will have "less stress" because "life is easier" in a hetero relationship then you need to date guys and leave lesbians alone. Your way of thinking about it is the reason a lot of lesbians don't want to date bi girls. 100% queers don't have the option to take the "easy" way out.
"if you are not destined to fall into an adult same sex relationship, you are not anywhere near the center of the gay rights issue, and you need to fully grasp that."
Thank you #42. My thoughts exactly.
#39, why would you "profess any attraction to a guy" if you were trying to "snag" a girl?
#69, maybe your girlfriend gave you shit about being bisexual because you say things like,
"Society facilitates opposite-sex relationships. Eg. a man is more likely to hit on me, because of the presumption of straightness. And then after getting together, life is easier in an opposite-sex relationship, and less stress = greater chance of longetivity."
If you think a relationship with a guy will last longer because you will have "less stress" because "life is easier" in a hetero relationship then you need to date guys and leave lesbians alone. Your way of thinking about it is the reason a lot of lesbians don't want to date bi girls. 100% queers don't have the option to take the "easy" way out.
"if you are not destined to fall into an adult same sex relationship, you are not anywhere near the center of the gay rights issue, and you need to fully grasp that."
Thank you #42. My thoughts exactly.
102
Good advice, Jade.
You and I would make a great fighting duo, btw. You could calmly try to explain to people why they should hand their asses to us on a plate, distracting them with your evenhanded logic while I sneak up behind them with a machete. KaPOW! Take that, bitches!
You and I would make a great fighting duo, btw. You could calmly try to explain to people why they should hand their asses to us on a plate, distracting them with your evenhanded logic while I sneak up behind them with a machete. KaPOW! Take that, bitches!
103
Jade, I'll respond to you first because I think you've made great points. I honestly believe the support ends because your ability to chose is a little frustrating to me. You can drop in and out of something that effects my socio-political well being on a daily basis. If you're in a 'straight' relationship a lot of the things that effect my life are no longer as relevant to yours. It might sound petty, or small minded, but it's human. I'll work on that, because reading this back it does sound a little douchy of me. ;-)
@95 I ain't bitter, just honest. Your mom sounds cool, but if you get married to a dude and have some kids will she not be as compelled to defend my rights? My guess is she won't, and thats not a judgement of her, I'm merely drawing a comparison between the personal and the political. In my opinion this is the broader frustration between those that identify as gay, and those that are bi.
@95 I ain't bitter, just honest. Your mom sounds cool, but if you get married to a dude and have some kids will she not be as compelled to defend my rights? My guess is she won't, and thats not a judgement of her, I'm merely drawing a comparison between the personal and the political. In my opinion this is the broader frustration between those that identify as gay, and those that are bi.
104
bi girl, actually bordering on the straight side of things--married to a wonderful woman (also bi, definatly likes the boobies more).
I do not identify as a lesbian, because that would be a frank lie--but i've never slept with a man (and will never--married, ya'know), but men are the ones who generally make my head turn. I'm bisexual, and i had to work to keep my family--for all of the same reasons a lot of the gay community did.
Marriage rights are about being able to freely choose one's partners without limitations on gender. that's something we can all agree on.
I do not identify as a lesbian, because that would be a frank lie--but i've never slept with a man (and will never--married, ya'know), but men are the ones who generally make my head turn. I'm bisexual, and i had to work to keep my family--for all of the same reasons a lot of the gay community did.
Marriage rights are about being able to freely choose one's partners without limitations on gender. that's something we can all agree on.
105
@101 I think the girl was saying that once she was "in" the lesbian community, if she dared to step out of it to hit on a guy, all the new friends she made there would be lost.
I don't know. Maybe its because I'm in college, but all the gays I know are supportive of bisexuality. I feel like people are coming out earlier, or maybe its just my city, and truly not that many of the people who are coming out start that be using bisexuality as a phase in between. I'm not saying people don't do it, but I do think that it is happening less, though I have no evidence as to how much it actually used to happen, so I can't say for sure.
I don't know. Maybe its because I'm in college, but all the gays I know are supportive of bisexuality. I feel like people are coming out earlier, or maybe its just my city, and truly not that many of the people who are coming out start that be using bisexuality as a phase in between. I'm not saying people don't do it, but I do think that it is happening less, though I have no evidence as to how much it actually used to happen, so I can't say for sure.
106
@101. Yeah, I thought the same thing when I read those two posts. This is that "truth" I mentioned earlier. Sometimes bisexuals are our own worst enemies.
Violet, we do compliment each other very well! hee!
Violet, we do compliment each other very well! hee!
107
I read all 100+ comments and I still honestly don't understand the problem, and I'm trying. Yes, people here on the Internet are mean, but they're always mean. Is the problem that people with different sexualities than you sometimes don't understand your sexuality? If this is a recurring problem, why not just date other bi people? There are lots out there.
Full disclosure: I am bi, and I've had people confused about my sexuality, but it's a very very minor problem in my life.
Full disclosure: I am bi, and I've had people confused about my sexuality, but it's a very very minor problem in my life.
108
@92
I do not expect acceptance everywhere i go. I have found a wonderful community of kinky poly queers that is very supportive.
I will not, however, sit quietly while a columnist spreads lies about a spectrum of sexuality. There are young people reading his column while trying to grasp some understanding of their attractions. They are being told that their feelings are just a phase, period, or they are seeing unflattering pictures of bisexuals painted so that the young person feels they must pick a team lest they end up like that. I see no difference between that behavior and the tactics used by the right to "cure" gay.
I do not expect acceptance everywhere i go. I have found a wonderful community of kinky poly queers that is very supportive.
I will not, however, sit quietly while a columnist spreads lies about a spectrum of sexuality. There are young people reading his column while trying to grasp some understanding of their attractions. They are being told that their feelings are just a phase, period, or they are seeing unflattering pictures of bisexuals painted so that the young person feels they must pick a team lest they end up like that. I see no difference between that behavior and the tactics used by the right to "cure" gay.
109
Donut, first: I don't think you're petty or small minded. Or douchy. And I didn't even before you responded to me so kindly. :-)
After I posted to you, I thought, "Or maybe it's because he doesn't think we need the support anymore." That would be a valid feeling, I think.
But honestly, what makes me sad is your assumption that Violet's mom (and I'm assuming most other straight people) would stop defending gay rights. This upsets me because your assumption is probably grounded in experience. Far too many bisexuals--when they begin dating a straight person--stop identifying as bi and get on with their lives. They don't do anything for gay rights anymore. That angers me as much as it does other gays and lesbians, first because it's selfish and royally fucked up, and second because it feeds into the stereotype.
Many of us don't want to admit it, but we're stereotyped for a reason.
After I posted to you, I thought, "Or maybe it's because he doesn't think we need the support anymore." That would be a valid feeling, I think.
But honestly, what makes me sad is your assumption that Violet's mom (and I'm assuming most other straight people) would stop defending gay rights. This upsets me because your assumption is probably grounded in experience. Far too many bisexuals--when they begin dating a straight person--stop identifying as bi and get on with their lives. They don't do anything for gay rights anymore. That angers me as much as it does other gays and lesbians, first because it's selfish and royally fucked up, and second because it feeds into the stereotype.
Many of us don't want to admit it, but we're stereotyped for a reason.
110
Wow! I've learned a lot reading these comments and Dan's post. Next time I decide to come out as bi, I'll go to my straight friends for support, not the gay ones.
Thanks all!
Thanks all!
111
Jade & violet_dagrinder, think of all the energy you are spending on worrying about what other people think of you. If you are truly bisexual, then what does it matter to you what other people say?
I'm gay, and I love being gay, no matter what others think or say about it. If others want to believe it is a choice or whatever, so be it. Just like I'm not going to convince you of my point of view, I'm not going to convince someone who thinks being gay is a choice, otherwise. Hell, maybe it is, but if so, what a wonderful choice. I'm a happy gay man.
I'm gay, and I love being gay, no matter what others think or say about it. If others want to believe it is a choice or whatever, so be it. Just like I'm not going to convince you of my point of view, I'm not going to convince someone who thinks being gay is a choice, otherwise. Hell, maybe it is, but if so, what a wonderful choice. I'm a happy gay man.
112
@107.
#105 did a great job answering your question before you even asked it. :-)
More and more, the younger generation is opening up to a fluid orientation. Some call it "situational orientation." So finding and dating other bisexuals is a much greater option than it was for my generation (I'm in my 40s). The "why don't you just date other bisexuals?" challenge (and it is a snarky "challenge," rather than an actual sincere question) isn't a factor today, because it's an actual option. It wasn't in the 80s and 90s when I was coming to understand my "weird" ways and "hero worship" for other girls. I was the only bisexual I knew, and one of my closest friends told me, "You're either gay or you're straight; there's no in-between." He was gay. He must understand these things better than me, right? Right? That set me back, I can tell you.
Honestly, I give a lot of credit to the grunge and alternative musicians of the 90s, who were so completely comfortable talking about their same-sex attractions: Trent Reznor, Kurt Cobain, Dave Matthews, Michael Stipe, Ani Di Franco, Tori Amos, etc. They saved a lot of lives.
So, blah, blah, blah, bisexuality for the youth today is pretty much the norm.
#105 did a great job answering your question before you even asked it. :-)
More and more, the younger generation is opening up to a fluid orientation. Some call it "situational orientation." So finding and dating other bisexuals is a much greater option than it was for my generation (I'm in my 40s). The "why don't you just date other bisexuals?" challenge (and it is a snarky "challenge," rather than an actual sincere question) isn't a factor today, because it's an actual option. It wasn't in the 80s and 90s when I was coming to understand my "weird" ways and "hero worship" for other girls. I was the only bisexual I knew, and one of my closest friends told me, "You're either gay or you're straight; there's no in-between." He was gay. He must understand these things better than me, right? Right? That set me back, I can tell you.
Honestly, I give a lot of credit to the grunge and alternative musicians of the 90s, who were so completely comfortable talking about their same-sex attractions: Trent Reznor, Kurt Cobain, Dave Matthews, Michael Stipe, Ani Di Franco, Tori Amos, etc. They saved a lot of lives.
So, blah, blah, blah, bisexuality for the youth today is pretty much the norm.
114
I fully agree with Dan I think he hit the nail on the head with his response. I as a 42 year old LESBIAN woman am tired of "bisexuals" and all their bullshit and whining. 'Oh my life is so hard people are always making me defend my sexuality boo hoo.' Get over it gays and lesbians have gone through and continue to go through way harder shit than that. So suck it up and move on.
116
Rob, ahh well. I really was just kidding around. I've read enough of your posts to know you're a smart and kind person. That is, if all the Rob's in Dan's blog are the same person. :-)
We can agree to disagree with no hard feelings, I hope.
We can agree to disagree with no hard feelings, I hope.
117
@115, so what you're claiming is its okay if a population group that is numerically larger than yours is opposed to your orientation? Interesting position on gays-lesbians vs. bis. i wonder how others would say that applies to straights:queers.
The fact that bisexuality seems to be more culturally accepted in the younger generations (as noted in @112) gives me hope. As someone at the Stranger noted, the wave of stupid, tired bigotry is ending and we can outwit and outlast them and move towards a more glorious future.
But that won't stop me laughing from how hoisted dan is on his own petard in the meantime. This topic makes him seem funny and small-minded to me.
The fact that bisexuality seems to be more culturally accepted in the younger generations (as noted in @112) gives me hope. As someone at the Stranger noted, the wave of stupid, tired bigotry is ending and we can outwit and outlast them and move towards a more glorious future.
But that won't stop me laughing from how hoisted dan is on his own petard in the meantime. This topic makes him seem funny and small-minded to me.
118
Hi Jade, No hard feelings here. You seem like a genuine sort of person. Now I'm gonna go watch that condom-animal-sex-orgy video again.
119
@34: I'm a straight woman, and when a young woman says she's bisexual, I do regard her with a sceptical eye. "RIGHT." That kind of thing.
It's not because you're bisexual. It's because you're young and female AND bisexual. The truth is, tons of girls out there make this claim for attention and through their drunken actions, have made young females the group that cries bisexual wolf.
The funny thing is, I'm sort of on your side, since I hate them for abusing the definition, and part of trying to defend it is turning a sceptical eye to potential impostors. Still, you can usually tell right off the bat if somebody's just doing it so some guy will fuck her, and I think people who just lump every girl into the same group are a little dense.
It's not because you're bisexual. It's because you're young and female AND bisexual. The truth is, tons of girls out there make this claim for attention and through their drunken actions, have made young females the group that cries bisexual wolf.
The funny thing is, I'm sort of on your side, since I hate them for abusing the definition, and part of trying to defend it is turning a sceptical eye to potential impostors. Still, you can usually tell right off the bat if somebody's just doing it so some guy will fuck her, and I think people who just lump every girl into the same group are a little dense.
120
Mykill @90, you prove my point, which you didn't understand. You get bashed when you are holding a boy's hand, not when you're holding a girl's. No one cares when you're working the straight side of the street; you only get the discrimination when you're being gay. Yet you want full oppressed-person credit all the time, even when you're being straight.
As for "not belonging", well, you got your "B" in "LGBT". You get to hang out at the clubhouse, and have your oh-so-important little discussions. That's more than I get to do, even though I LOVE show tunes.
You think that everyone's your enemy, but really, they are not. I'm not trying to be snarky here; I think bisexuals are terrific, I really do. It's the whining that turns me off -- not your story, which isn't typical, but the original letter writer's, which sadly is.
As for "not belonging", well, you got your "B" in "LGBT". You get to hang out at the clubhouse, and have your oh-so-important little discussions. That's more than I get to do, even though I LOVE show tunes.
You think that everyone's your enemy, but really, they are not. I'm not trying to be snarky here; I think bisexuals are terrific, I really do. It's the whining that turns me off -- not your story, which isn't typical, but the original letter writer's, which sadly is.
121
I still really don't understand the current problem, but if jade is right and the problem was pretty much resolved in the 90's, I do understand.
I don't like what #119 is saying, though. Who cares if people are just "experimenting"? Who cares if they're somewhat attracted to women but mostly attracted to men? They can be bi if they want to be, there shouldn't be an official exclusive bi club. If a young woman wants to get drunk and make out with other girls, they're just having fun, just like if a lifelong lesbian makes out with another woman.
I don't like what #119 is saying, though. Who cares if people are just "experimenting"? Who cares if they're somewhat attracted to women but mostly attracted to men? They can be bi if they want to be, there shouldn't be an official exclusive bi club. If a young woman wants to get drunk and make out with other girls, they're just having fun, just like if a lifelong lesbian makes out with another woman.
122
@50 Me too – I feel a lot less alone reading these posts.
There is a lot of middle ground on sexuality and I think the folks who identify as bi are being the most honest. I have a few stories to share that have all happened to me in the last 5 years or so (I’m in my mid 30’s).
I have a butch lesbian friend who routinely gets drunk at company parties and sleeps with male co-workers. These drunken “relationships” tend to last for weeks and include lots of sneaking around and sex. She identifies as a lesbian. She doesn’t tell anyone else about this, but confides in me because she thinks I will understand. For her female partners who would not date a bisexual for the STD reasons (you know lesbians think sleeping with men makes you dirty) they are out of the loop on her sexual activities with men. It’s not that she lied to them, it’s that she is a lesbian (and butch) so who would even think she as had sex with a guy since high school? No one asks, and she doesn’t tell.
I have another friend of a friend who is also a butch lesbian and I through some gossipy discussion with my friend, I find out that this butch (a total, “I would never date a bi girl cuz she would leave me for a dude” type) goes on a sex-with-men binge every time she ends a relationship with a woman. It’s like that relationship is over, I’m going to go have sex with a men for a while… but she would never identify as bi or even date a bi identified woman.
I have a lesbian family member who is all down on the bi’s. She makes “pick a team” type jokes and says to my face and in front of groups of mutual friends and my girlfriend that I need to “decide”, and that I’m not really “one of them” or that I “don’t belong” in their bar. But, this same family member has cheated on every girlfriend she has ever had with MEN. She tells me this. She says she loves women, but sometimes she just really wants to get fucked. I say she is dating the wrong women. But why is it okay (and it is okay for everyone standing around agreeing and joking with her) for her to make crappy comments at me for identifying as bi when in truth, that lesbian has had more cock than me?
I was dating a woman (butch lesbian) who knew I was bi from the beginning. After we had been dating for months and things started to get more serious, she started to tell me stories about her and her gay male friends some times “experimenting” by having sex with each other. It felt like a coming out of sorts. From what she told me, I think she had sex with more guys than I have and with more frequency and more recently. But then she also started to question my bisexuality, and would say things about me just being with her till I found a man, and that I would leave her when I did so I could have a house and kids. She said I would still want to get fucked by women, and not to worry, because she would come over and we could pretend to just be friends but that she would still fuck me when my future husband was out. Clearly there were some issues going on for her especially since I never stated any desire for marriage or children. And ultimately her biphobic attitude was one of the major reasons we broke up.
I tell you all these stories to illustrate what is commonly accepted as “okay” when it comes to bi women in the lesbian community but to also illustrate that there is a lot of dishonesty about it. It’s like it is okay if you sleep with men, just so long as you keep it secret and feel bad about it. But if you are okay with it and honestly identify as bi – well we just don’t want you around.
I don’t feel that there is a lot of hatred about bi’s in the queer community, I just think there is a lot of dishonesty, misunderstanding and rampant stereotypes going around. I really thank everyone here for this amazing discussion though and think this is a great step in the right direction!
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There is a lot of middle ground on sexuality and I think the folks who identify as bi are being the most honest. I have a few stories to share that have all happened to me in the last 5 years or so (I’m in my mid 30’s).
I have a butch lesbian friend who routinely gets drunk at company parties and sleeps with male co-workers. These drunken “relationships” tend to last for weeks and include lots of sneaking around and sex. She identifies as a lesbian. She doesn’t tell anyone else about this, but confides in me because she thinks I will understand. For her female partners who would not date a bisexual for the STD reasons (you know lesbians think sleeping with men makes you dirty) they are out of the loop on her sexual activities with men. It’s not that she lied to them, it’s that she is a lesbian (and butch) so who would even think she as had sex with a guy since high school? No one asks, and she doesn’t tell.
I have another friend of a friend who is also a butch lesbian and I through some gossipy discussion with my friend, I find out that this butch (a total, “I would never date a bi girl cuz she would leave me for a dude” type) goes on a sex-with-men binge every time she ends a relationship with a woman. It’s like that relationship is over, I’m going to go have sex with a men for a while… but she would never identify as bi or even date a bi identified woman.
I have a lesbian family member who is all down on the bi’s. She makes “pick a team” type jokes and says to my face and in front of groups of mutual friends and my girlfriend that I need to “decide”, and that I’m not really “one of them” or that I “don’t belong” in their bar. But, this same family member has cheated on every girlfriend she has ever had with MEN. She tells me this. She says she loves women, but sometimes she just really wants to get fucked. I say she is dating the wrong women. But why is it okay (and it is okay for everyone standing around agreeing and joking with her) for her to make crappy comments at me for identifying as bi when in truth, that lesbian has had more cock than me?
I was dating a woman (butch lesbian) who knew I was bi from the beginning. After we had been dating for months and things started to get more serious, she started to tell me stories about her and her gay male friends some times “experimenting” by having sex with each other. It felt like a coming out of sorts. From what she told me, I think she had sex with more guys than I have and with more frequency and more recently. But then she also started to question my bisexuality, and would say things about me just being with her till I found a man, and that I would leave her when I did so I could have a house and kids. She said I would still want to get fucked by women, and not to worry, because she would come over and we could pretend to just be friends but that she would still fuck me when my future husband was out. Clearly there were some issues going on for her especially since I never stated any desire for marriage or children. And ultimately her biphobic attitude was one of the major reasons we broke up.
I tell you all these stories to illustrate what is commonly accepted as “okay” when it comes to bi women in the lesbian community but to also illustrate that there is a lot of dishonesty about it. It’s like it is okay if you sleep with men, just so long as you keep it secret and feel bad about it. But if you are okay with it and honestly identify as bi – well we just don’t want you around.
I don’t feel that there is a lot of hatred about bi’s in the queer community, I just think there is a lot of dishonesty, misunderstanding and rampant stereotypes going around. I really thank everyone here for this amazing discussion though and think this is a great step in the right direction!
123
@120: Fnarf, i do understand your point- we are clearly talking past each other.
I am not looking for full oppression status, i am looking to be a dissenting voice when i hear myths and stereotypes being handed out like kool aid. Today it is bisexuality, last week it was racism, yesterday it was mental health, tomorrow it will probably be polyamory.
I don't think everyone is my enemy, i think you and i would get along famously in person. I agree there are some awfully whiny bis out there (SBW included), but i still don't want to see them thrown under the bus.
You can hang out in my clubhouse anytime, you have to bring the showtunes. All i have is 80s darkwave, synth and punkrock.
I am not looking for full oppression status, i am looking to be a dissenting voice when i hear myths and stereotypes being handed out like kool aid. Today it is bisexuality, last week it was racism, yesterday it was mental health, tomorrow it will probably be polyamory.
I don't think everyone is my enemy, i think you and i would get along famously in person. I agree there are some awfully whiny bis out there (SBW included), but i still don't want to see them thrown under the bus.
You can hang out in my clubhouse anytime, you have to bring the showtunes. All i have is 80s darkwave, synth and punkrock.
124
"Sort of like the way gay people (and gay guys especially, like Dan) start whining about when black people discriminate on the queers when they 'should' be understanding how not to oppress the queers because of how black people have been oppressed - or whatever . . ."
Has Dan ever said this? I'd like a quote; it doesn't sound like him.
Because it seems to me that Dan doesn't care if people are supportive. Dan doesn't care if people are understanding. From what I've read of him, he just wants the same rights – and people can be as unsupportive and not understanding as they want to.
Has Dan ever said this? I'd like a quote; it doesn't sound like him.
Because it seems to me that Dan doesn't care if people are supportive. Dan doesn't care if people are understanding. From what I've read of him, he just wants the same rights – and people can be as unsupportive and not understanding as they want to.
125
Personally, I have no problem with people who identify themselves as Bi, hell my cousin has identified as Bi for the past 10 years but has only had ltr's with women. The whole family comment he made was just wrong!! Find another family?! Sure some families are more accepting of queer members and some are not (esp Latino families like mine) but you can't find another family!! If there is one thing you do not touch, its family. Everyone's is different and to just say something so irresponsible like that to someone who looks up to him as a leader is awful. He is a leader in the community and he does have the power to make people think more carefully when talking bout Bi men/women. I know that is how he is though, he wants to provoke and he doesn't care what line he crosses. But in the community, there is a lot of discrimination against Bi men/women that he really should have been more sensitive.
Dan's "cross to bear" argument is crap! That is the worse argument of it all. That's unfair to all Bi men/women to say, thats how they "tend to be-run off and get legally married". First of all marriage is a personal choice. Even if I had the right to get married, I don't think I would. My very straight brother doesn't believe in marriage (he has been with his girlfriend for 8 yrs and I have the cutest nephew). Dan really pissed me off when I read that part of his response. Dan doesn't know what cross I have to bear as a lesbian! He isn't a lesbian!! He may have an idea but everyone has more than one cross to bear. He shouldn't assume that every straight couples and Bi men/women would want to get married. Granted, straight couples do have the option and people in queer relationships do not have the right which is why we should be more united and not divided! We all deserve that right!
Personally, I know lesbians who won't even talk to Bi women because of fear. I tend to get into many arguments over the "Bi Debate". Maybe it has something to do with the fact that I hate being discriminated against (I like to call it the triple threat of discrimination: queer women of color) so why would I discriminate? Its dumb and I've lost respect for Dan. For not standing up for a big group in our community and helping unite instead of divide.
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Dan's "cross to bear" argument is crap! That is the worse argument of it all. That's unfair to all Bi men/women to say, thats how they "tend to be-run off and get legally married". First of all marriage is a personal choice. Even if I had the right to get married, I don't think I would. My very straight brother doesn't believe in marriage (he has been with his girlfriend for 8 yrs and I have the cutest nephew). Dan really pissed me off when I read that part of his response. Dan doesn't know what cross I have to bear as a lesbian! He isn't a lesbian!! He may have an idea but everyone has more than one cross to bear. He shouldn't assume that every straight couples and Bi men/women would want to get married. Granted, straight couples do have the option and people in queer relationships do not have the right which is why we should be more united and not divided! We all deserve that right!
Personally, I know lesbians who won't even talk to Bi women because of fear. I tend to get into many arguments over the "Bi Debate". Maybe it has something to do with the fact that I hate being discriminated against (I like to call it the triple threat of discrimination: queer women of color) so why would I discriminate? Its dumb and I've lost respect for Dan. For not standing up for a big group in our community and helping unite instead of divide.
126
i don't see bi folk as just "confused" or "experimenting", i'm much more inclined to call them "not that choosey"
127
Reading this thread it starts to seem that maybe the way majority society treats G&L's has surprising parallels in the way gays and lesbians treat the yet smaller minority of out bisexuals.
Bisexuality doesn't exist you say? Lots of hetero bigots out there say the same thing about homosexuality.
Bisexuals already have it easy? Again, lots of homophobes will back that up with their opposition to hate crime and anti-discrimination legislation, not to mention marriage rights.
Kind of gives some insight on where discrimination comes from when you can see it bubbling up in your own heart.
Reading this thread it starts to seem that maybe the way majority society treats G&L's has surprising parallels in the way gays and lesbians treat the yet smaller minority of out bisexuals.
Bisexuality doesn't exist you say? Lots of hetero bigots out there say the same thing about homosexuality.
Bisexuals already have it easy? Again, lots of homophobes will back that up with their opposition to hate crime and anti-discrimination legislation, not to mention marriage rights.
Kind of gives some insight on where discrimination comes from when you can see it bubbling up in your own heart.
128
Dan, for years I have been a fan. I give your books out @ Xmas. I think anyone who read Ellen Forney's "I Love Led Zeppelin" can figure this out in two seconds: both fo the first bi people you met, you clearly didn't believe were/are bi. (AND they were seriously flaky which didn't help. Especially the girl.)
Dan's general snottiness towards bis is rich given the current environment for all queer people. I've had my first up in the air for gay rights since I was a teenager but have always caught condescending flack for my own, bi orientation. Bellyaching? Why would bis do that when they can get married if they want, right? Sure makes the homophobia I've experienced as an OUT bi person just melt away to know that the loudest of the community - gay guys, YOU - don't support me back. 'cause a wedding ring would make it all go away.
THAT concept really makes me wanna get on the horn & support anti-Prop-8 measures some more. I'm a lowly bi who can go out and get married any old time. Uh, unless I wanna marry a woman. Oh wait, I can't? Then conveniently I am not bi! It's magic. It'll just disappear.
Thanks for consistently seeing someone else's sexual identity as less valid or less fixed than your own. That's an excellent position for an advice columnist to be in. There may be a lot of college bi's, just like there's Hannukah Jews, but there are many bi people who stay that way for life. I'm sorry it rankles you so much that bis lose their visibility if they mate w/ an opposite-sex partner - or that they can marry them - but why should bis choose to be more visible & supportive when the gay community repeatedly disses & ignores them?
:( I mean, why don't you just change your own urges/orientation? You can, can't you? It's just a whim, not biological wiring, after all. What, you can't? Know what? I can't change mine either.
I'm pretty visible BTW: one of the only members of my "Community" who still goes to marches, writes their lawmakers, etc. I'm gonna try to coffee away the idea that the guy who used to be my fantasy GBF (Gay Boyriend) probably doesn't support me/my rights IRL.
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Dan's general snottiness towards bis is rich given the current environment for all queer people. I've had my first up in the air for gay rights since I was a teenager but have always caught condescending flack for my own, bi orientation. Bellyaching? Why would bis do that when they can get married if they want, right? Sure makes the homophobia I've experienced as an OUT bi person just melt away to know that the loudest of the community - gay guys, YOU - don't support me back. 'cause a wedding ring would make it all go away.
THAT concept really makes me wanna get on the horn & support anti-Prop-8 measures some more. I'm a lowly bi who can go out and get married any old time. Uh, unless I wanna marry a woman. Oh wait, I can't? Then conveniently I am not bi! It's magic. It'll just disappear.
Thanks for consistently seeing someone else's sexual identity as less valid or less fixed than your own. That's an excellent position for an advice columnist to be in. There may be a lot of college bi's, just like there's Hannukah Jews, but there are many bi people who stay that way for life. I'm sorry it rankles you so much that bis lose their visibility if they mate w/ an opposite-sex partner - or that they can marry them - but why should bis choose to be more visible & supportive when the gay community repeatedly disses & ignores them?
:( I mean, why don't you just change your own urges/orientation? You can, can't you? It's just a whim, not biological wiring, after all. What, you can't? Know what? I can't change mine either.
I'm pretty visible BTW: one of the only members of my "Community" who still goes to marches, writes their lawmakers, etc. I'm gonna try to coffee away the idea that the guy who used to be my fantasy GBF (Gay Boyriend) probably doesn't support me/my rights IRL.
129
Well, I'm a 44 yr. old woman and identify as bisexual (for those of you who think it's a youth thing). I was married for 9 yrs. I was disowned by my entire family for 8 yrs. I've been in a same sex relationship for 5 yrs but wouldn't rule out being with a man again if this relationship doesn't last for some reason.
I have taken alot of flak through the years from the lesbian community more than the gay community and quite frankly I could give a shit what anyone thinks of me. Maybe the issue is that the gay and lesbian community would like to say that without a doubt we are "born that way." I could give a shit whether I was "born that way" or whether it was simply my choice. It's nobody's business, regardless.
Dan, you sucked on this one! Where's your compassion and tolerance? You are still so angry about prop 8, I don't think you're seeing things objectively. There seems to be alot of misplaced anger.
I have taken alot of flak through the years from the lesbian community more than the gay community and quite frankly I could give a shit what anyone thinks of me. Maybe the issue is that the gay and lesbian community would like to say that without a doubt we are "born that way." I could give a shit whether I was "born that way" or whether it was simply my choice. It's nobody's business, regardless.
Dan, you sucked on this one! Where's your compassion and tolerance? You are still so angry about prop 8, I don't think you're seeing things objectively. There seems to be alot of misplaced anger.
130
I totally believe that people can be bi. I've met more bi girls than guys, but maybe they're just more open about it. I wouldn't tell someone they're lying about being bi.
Now, what do you call me if I've only ever been with guys and I'm in a LTR with a guy that I plan to stay in, but I am mildly attracted to girls especially when I'm drunk. I've never acted on it but then I would never make a first move on a guy either.
Bi-curious?
Now, what do you call me if I've only ever been with guys and I'm in a LTR with a guy that I plan to stay in, but I am mildly attracted to girls especially when I'm drunk. I've never acted on it but then I would never make a first move on a guy either.
Bi-curious?
131
129
"Maybe the issue is that the gay and lesbian community would like to say that without a doubt we are "born that way.""
definitely
"Maybe the issue is that the gay and lesbian community would like to say that without a doubt we are "born that way.""
definitely
132
@131
Unfortunately it's not that black and white all of the time.
So, do you think that there is open hostility to bisexuals because it makes "full-fledged" gays and lesbians less legitimate?
Unfortunately it's not that black and white all of the time.
So, do you think that there is open hostility to bisexuals because it makes "full-fledged" gays and lesbians less legitimate?
133
132
Activist Homosexuals have staked all on the proposition that homosexuality is an innate trait like race or eye colour.
Anyone who goes against the orthodox theology will be shunned.
Activist Homosexuals have staked all on the proposition that homosexuality is an innate trait like race or eye colour.
Anyone who goes against the orthodox theology will be shunned.
134
133
Well said. Yeah, we just give gays and lesbians a bad name, don't we? Give me a fucking break!!! Talk about whiners!!
Well said. Yeah, we just give gays and lesbians a bad name, don't we? Give me a fucking break!!! Talk about whiners!!
135
I know there are people on the extreme ends of the spectrum, but I thought it was mostly accepted by now that most of us are some kind of bi. We're all somewhere on that continuum. It's just that only some people find a way to acknowledge it and live it out, particularly in this culture that unfortunately requires identification. And they are brave.
136
Okay, I AM a bisexual woman, and I agree with Dan.
I don't know who you hang around with, but NOBODY has ever expressed surprise that I've never done a three-way.
And if gays and lesbians and transsexuals fell out in distress over every stupid comment made about gays and lesbians and transsexuals on television, they'd have no time for carrying on their lives.
Comport yourself like a decent person, correct misunderstandings courteously, and quit whining. If you want bisexuals to have a better reputation in the wider community, devote yourself to building the reputation you want.
I don't know who you hang around with, but NOBODY has ever expressed surprise that I've never done a three-way.
And if gays and lesbians and transsexuals fell out in distress over every stupid comment made about gays and lesbians and transsexuals on television, they'd have no time for carrying on their lives.
Comport yourself like a decent person, correct misunderstandings courteously, and quit whining. If you want bisexuals to have a better reputation in the wider community, devote yourself to building the reputation you want.
137
something about this makes me think of this NYT article today, "But is Madoff Not So Good for the Jews? Discuss Among Yourselves."
....."Kenneth Lay of the Enron Corporation was not referred to as a "prominent Protestant energy fraudster"..."Blagojevich is not refererred to as a "prominent Serbian American politician.."
think about how it applies and then convene a panel discussion.
....."Kenneth Lay of the Enron Corporation was not referred to as a "prominent Protestant energy fraudster"..."Blagojevich is not refererred to as a "prominent Serbian American politician.."
think about how it applies and then convene a panel discussion.
138
@136.
Oh my, thank God I came back to this thread. Gehannah, you are spot on, especially this:
Thank you, thank you!
People of all minority orientations and identities (i.e., non-straights, non CIS) have to have thicker skins. SBW needs to understand this.
Oh my, thank God I came back to this thread. Gehannah, you are spot on, especially this:
And if gays and lesbians and transsexuals fell out in distress over every stupid comment made about gays and lesbians and transsexuals on television, they'd have no time for carrying on their lives.
Thank you, thank you!
People of all minority orientations and identities (i.e., non-straights, non CIS) have to have thicker skins. SBW needs to understand this.
140
Anecdote:
I knew a man who ran a sperm bank in the Bay Area that accepted sperm from gay and bisexual men, as well as straight men (most sperm banks won't touch gay or bi semen, for the same reason that the Red Cross won't take blood from any man who has had sex with another man since 1982---a woefully outdated policy). The purchasers of sperm were mainly lesbian couples--but also straight couples and single women who were straight, gay and bi.
The purchasers of sperm would read a donor's profile, which had all his information: education, religious background, race, income, health history, hobbies, height, coloring, and sexual orientation. Evidently, they have a hard time moving sperm from bi donors. The women who were looking through the profiles seemed not to care if the donor was gay or straight, but if the guy said he was bi, they tended to lose all interest, even if the donor had an Ivy league degree and made six figures.
Totally bizarre, I think. The guy at the sperm bank thought it was bizarre too. It's not like the bi sperm was riskier in any rational way---all donors went through a rigorous screening. He said that none of the women explained why they eschewed bi donors---the guy at the bank suspected it was an unconscious reaction.
I knew a man who ran a sperm bank in the Bay Area that accepted sperm from gay and bisexual men, as well as straight men (most sperm banks won't touch gay or bi semen, for the same reason that the Red Cross won't take blood from any man who has had sex with another man since 1982---a woefully outdated policy). The purchasers of sperm were mainly lesbian couples--but also straight couples and single women who were straight, gay and bi.
The purchasers of sperm would read a donor's profile, which had all his information: education, religious background, race, income, health history, hobbies, height, coloring, and sexual orientation. Evidently, they have a hard time moving sperm from bi donors. The women who were looking through the profiles seemed not to care if the donor was gay or straight, but if the guy said he was bi, they tended to lose all interest, even if the donor had an Ivy league degree and made six figures.
Totally bizarre, I think. The guy at the sperm bank thought it was bizarre too. It's not like the bi sperm was riskier in any rational way---all donors went through a rigorous screening. He said that none of the women explained why they eschewed bi donors---the guy at the bank suspected it was an unconscious reaction.
141
@133
Also recruiting fresh meat into the system needs the fiction that homosexuality is an innate trait. You grab vulnerable confused young kids and sucker them into some homosexual encounters. If it is a behavior choice when they get sick of it they can move back into the mainstream. But if they buy into the notion that they "are" gay then they are hooked. Which is why getting into schools is so important; most kids are confused about life in general and eager to trash the norms of their parents; what cold be more trendy or hip at age 13 than deciding you're gay? The popular media, MTV etc force feed kids on the notion that being gay is totally cool. Again, it has to be a one way street; once you check into the Hotel Gay you can never leave. So the homosexual Cult masters relentlessly push the notion that homosexuality is what you "ARE". And 'bi's make that a harder sell, thus the grief from orthodox gays.
Also recruiting fresh meat into the system needs the fiction that homosexuality is an innate trait. You grab vulnerable confused young kids and sucker them into some homosexual encounters. If it is a behavior choice when they get sick of it they can move back into the mainstream. But if they buy into the notion that they "are" gay then they are hooked. Which is why getting into schools is so important; most kids are confused about life in general and eager to trash the norms of their parents; what cold be more trendy or hip at age 13 than deciding you're gay? The popular media, MTV etc force feed kids on the notion that being gay is totally cool. Again, it has to be a one way street; once you check into the Hotel Gay you can never leave. So the homosexual Cult masters relentlessly push the notion that homosexuality is what you "ARE". And 'bi's make that a harder sell, thus the grief from orthodox gays.
145
It's not that it stings. It's too fucking ridiculous to sting.
And it's not truth, so there's that too.
And it's not truth, so there's that too.
147
This is probably a waste of time, but here goes.
Your whole "recruiting" bullshit. Accusing gays and lesbians of finding confused "young" kids and pulling them into something they really don't want, making them out to be predators.
This, along with your "choice" bullshit . . .
You've written some contemptible stuff here.
Your whole "recruiting" bullshit. Accusing gays and lesbians of finding confused "young" kids and pulling them into something they really don't want, making them out to be predators.
This, along with your "choice" bullshit . . .
You've written some contemptible stuff here.
148
147
Public schools are full of 'supportive' adults eager to help confused kids 'recognize' their homosexuality. Aggressive litigation forces school systems to install GLBT support clubs (easy access to potential recruits)
Once a kid has been 'supported' (conned) into 'outing' them self there is no turning back.
MTV does not program music anymore, all day long programs that portray homosexuality as an idealized hip and cool lifestyle. The same for all programs targeted at adolescents and teens. Sloggers often note with glee that the rising generation is accepting of homosexuality, programed just as surely as Hitlers' Youth.
Do you know what happens to young runaways who arrive in the big city? Ever heard of chickenhawks?
More than most cult systems homosexuals must recruit because there is no mechanism to create new members from within (darn reproductive biology! envy the polygamists-)
Add the fact that the lifestyle burns thru (and burns out) the young and fresh and beautiful at a high rate. (disease, drugs, 30 is over the hill in the 'scene') Less desirable members of the cult (minorities, the not-so-beautiful) coerced to submit to unsafe sex as the price for membership in the cult.
Club Homosexual needs lots of fresh meat.
Public schools are full of 'supportive' adults eager to help confused kids 'recognize' their homosexuality. Aggressive litigation forces school systems to install GLBT support clubs (easy access to potential recruits)
Once a kid has been 'supported' (conned) into 'outing' them self there is no turning back.
MTV does not program music anymore, all day long programs that portray homosexuality as an idealized hip and cool lifestyle. The same for all programs targeted at adolescents and teens. Sloggers often note with glee that the rising generation is accepting of homosexuality, programed just as surely as Hitlers' Youth.
Do you know what happens to young runaways who arrive in the big city? Ever heard of chickenhawks?
More than most cult systems homosexuals must recruit because there is no mechanism to create new members from within (darn reproductive biology! envy the polygamists-)
Add the fact that the lifestyle burns thru (and burns out) the young and fresh and beautiful at a high rate. (disease, drugs, 30 is over the hill in the 'scene') Less desirable members of the cult (minorities, the not-so-beautiful) coerced to submit to unsafe sex as the price for membership in the cult.
Club Homosexual needs lots of fresh meat.
149
What happens to homosexuals who buck the “homosexuality is a hardwired innate trait” orthodoxy?
A "Cult Danger Evaluation Framework" assessment chart may provide insight.
You can rate any group on the points below and determine to what extent they engage in "cult" behavior.
How does the SLOG chapter of the “High Church of Homosexuality is an Innate Trait” rate?
What happens to sloggers who suggest sexual behavior is a matter of choice?
What happens to sloggers who question the Most High Reverend Savage?
How do the male white yuppie ‘beautiful people’ treat the rest of the GLBT community?
What special treatment is reserved for apostate Bisexuals?
take the test:
The categories are:
Internal Control: Amount of internal social power exercised by leader(s) over members; lack of clearly defined organizational rights for members.
Wisdom/Knowledge Claimed by leader(s); amount of infallibility declared or implied.
(oooh, Anti 8 takes a beating here...)
Wisdom/Knowledge Credited to leader(s) by members; amount of trust in decisions or interpretations made by leader(s); amount of hostility by members towards internal or external critics and/or towards verification efforts.
(crossed Dan’s ‘ditto heads’ lately?)
Dogma: Rigidity of reality concepts taught; amount of doctrinal inflexibility or “fundamentalism;” hostility towards relativism and situationalism.
(‘choice’ anyone?)
Recruiting: Emphasis put on attracting new members.
(see 147 above)
Sexual Manipulation of members by leader(s) of non-tantric groups; amount of control exercised over sexuality of members in terms of sexual orientation, behavior, and/or choice of partners.
(see treatment of bis this entire thread)
Sexual Favoritism: Advancement or preferential treatment dependent upon sexual activity with the leader(s) of non-tantric groups.
(consider fate of less ‘beautiful’ gays discusesed elsewhere on slog re: unsafe practices)
Dropout Control: Intensity of efforts directed at preventing or returning dropouts.
(if you ‘ARE’ homo no way you can drop out- no room for choice here!)
Violence: Amount of approval when used by or for the group, its doctrines or leader(s).
(Vandalized a church lately?)
Paranoia: Amount of fear concerning real or imagined enemies; exaggeration of perceived power of opponents; prevalence of conspiracy theories.
(checked under your bed for Warren or the Mormons?)
Grimness: Amount of disapproval concerning jokes about the group, its doctrines or its leader(s).
Surrender of Will: Amount of emphasis on members not having to be responsible for personal decisions.
(You ARE gay. No thinking required or allowed.)
Hypocrisy: amount of approval for actions which the group officially considers immoral or unethical, when done by or for the group, its doctrines or leader(s).
(it’s ok to be bigoted against bigots. it’s ok to hate and deny the humanity of people who disagree with you on Prop 8)
More...
A "Cult Danger Evaluation Framework" assessment chart may provide insight.
You can rate any group on the points below and determine to what extent they engage in "cult" behavior.
How does the SLOG chapter of the “High Church of Homosexuality is an Innate Trait” rate?
What happens to sloggers who suggest sexual behavior is a matter of choice?
What happens to sloggers who question the Most High Reverend Savage?
How do the male white yuppie ‘beautiful people’ treat the rest of the GLBT community?
What special treatment is reserved for apostate Bisexuals?
take the test:
The categories are:
Internal Control: Amount of internal social power exercised by leader(s) over members; lack of clearly defined organizational rights for members.
Wisdom/Knowledge Claimed by leader(s); amount of infallibility declared or implied.
(oooh, Anti 8 takes a beating here...)
Wisdom/Knowledge Credited to leader(s) by members; amount of trust in decisions or interpretations made by leader(s); amount of hostility by members towards internal or external critics and/or towards verification efforts.
(crossed Dan’s ‘ditto heads’ lately?)
Dogma: Rigidity of reality concepts taught; amount of doctrinal inflexibility or “fundamentalism;” hostility towards relativism and situationalism.
(‘choice’ anyone?)
Recruiting: Emphasis put on attracting new members.
(see 147 above)
Sexual Manipulation of members by leader(s) of non-tantric groups; amount of control exercised over sexuality of members in terms of sexual orientation, behavior, and/or choice of partners.
(see treatment of bis this entire thread)
Sexual Favoritism: Advancement or preferential treatment dependent upon sexual activity with the leader(s) of non-tantric groups.
(consider fate of less ‘beautiful’ gays discusesed elsewhere on slog re: unsafe practices)
Dropout Control: Intensity of efforts directed at preventing or returning dropouts.
(if you ‘ARE’ homo no way you can drop out- no room for choice here!)
Violence: Amount of approval when used by or for the group, its doctrines or leader(s).
(Vandalized a church lately?)
Paranoia: Amount of fear concerning real or imagined enemies; exaggeration of perceived power of opponents; prevalence of conspiracy theories.
(checked under your bed for Warren or the Mormons?)
Grimness: Amount of disapproval concerning jokes about the group, its doctrines or its leader(s).
Surrender of Will: Amount of emphasis on members not having to be responsible for personal decisions.
(You ARE gay. No thinking required or allowed.)
Hypocrisy: amount of approval for actions which the group officially considers immoral or unethical, when done by or for the group, its doctrines or leader(s).
(it’s ok to be bigoted against bigots. it’s ok to hate and deny the humanity of people who disagree with you on Prop 8)
150
@149
"Dogma: Rigidity of reality concepts taught; amount of doctrinal inflexibility or “fundamentalism;” hostility towards relativism and situationalism."
Good luck surviving in the academic world if you want to study homosexuality from any point of view other than the accepted 'innate' position.
No funding.
Nothing published.
No tenure.
No positions.
Academic freedom isn't free!
"Dogma: Rigidity of reality concepts taught; amount of doctrinal inflexibility or “fundamentalism;” hostility towards relativism and situationalism."
Good luck surviving in the academic world if you want to study homosexuality from any point of view other than the accepted 'innate' position.
No funding.
Nothing published.
No tenure.
No positions.
Academic freedom isn't free!
151
Monogamous bisexual here--there's not enough time in the day for me to negotiate more than one serious romantic relationship, what w/ maintaing a 40 hour a week job and my artistic pursuits. Plus, w/ maturity you learn that not every desire must be consumated.
I was one of the five or so bisexuals who marched in the 1994 Pride Parade (At least I think it was 1994. I believe Dan Savage was one of the judges.) under the Bisexual Banner. I carried the banner, wore the t-shirt, endured the mockery (I believe Dan Savage made a snarky comment about the number of bisexuals multiplying. It wasn't really a big deal, I am what I am. Then again, it's also easier to feel this way while safely ensconced in heterosexual privlige.).
Although I've dated women--one for two years--yes, I am in a relationship w/ an opposite sex partner. It's not "spooky" that I wound up w/ a man--to quote Dan Savage--so much as a matter of course.
Lesbians have grilled me about my preferences, gay men have mocked me. I've endured crappy service at the Wild Rose, I think because I'm definitely not butch but not a super hip and trendy femme either. (I'm also not a leper. I'm actually kind of cute, but who cares.) Again, this lack of acceptance was/is really not a big deal, particularly when you consider what gay men, lesbians and transgendered people have suffered (Remember Brandon Teena, Matthew Shephard, and others who were brutally murdered? Then there's Prop 8.). It just made it harder to find women to date.
Not being accepted in the lesbian community shrinks the pool of available women to date. I've participated in bisexual organizations in the past which was fun for a little while. I met some nice people, but everntually quit going once I realized that I didn't have much in common w/ group members other than sexual preference. (By the way, it was true that some women in the group were on their way to declaring themselves lesbians, but only some.) There was a lso a lot of overlap between bisexual and poly groups and I'm just not into the poly scene. I tried dating one man and one woman at the same time (not on the same dates as I am not a Penthouse lesbian) and it was just fatiguing. I don't know how the poly people do it.
I think, despite my feminism, that I am a product of my socialization, meaning that I find it difficult to be the pursuer. I tried to pursue women a few times and it was really difficult. I simply could not tell if they liked me. I couldn't read their signals. (The woman I dated for two years was very direct. That helped a lot.) Again, I swear I'm not a leper, although I felt like one when women rejected me. (From those experiences I've developed a sense of compassion for men and have since tried to be kind to the men I've rejected. I bought one a beer, but I digress.) Add to this difficulty the issue of not knowing if a woman is bi--since Lesbians are out of the question--and it's just too complicated.
I've been w/ my male partner for 11 years. I love him dearly and cannot imagine him not being a part of my life. Do I experience attraction for women? Yeah, sometimes. I also feel attraction to other men sometimes too. He, in turn, is attracted to other women at times. So what, it's part of life. Sexual attraction is often fleeting and not every desire must be consumated. Being bisexual simply means that I find both men and women sexually attractive and am willing to have relationships w/ either. But, in this binary world you're supposed to pick a camp and that's what works for most people. (Actually, there are more than two genders too but my post is already way too long.)
Given the violence and oppression gay men and lesbians continue to suffer, any resentment against bis in their communities makes sense as we bis can and do enjoy the luxury/convenience of not identifying. We lose complaining rights unless we're willing to put ourselves out there. I confess that I'm rather lazy in this regard, especially as I get older. Beyond arguing w/ people, wearing buttons here and there, donating the stray dollar or two donated to good causes, participating in an occasional demonstration (it's been a while), I haven't done much. SBW needs to look at the larger picture. Unless you're willing to put your ass on the line--and yeah, I put my ass on the line, less and less as I and it get older--you can't complain.
More...
I was one of the five or so bisexuals who marched in the 1994 Pride Parade (At least I think it was 1994. I believe Dan Savage was one of the judges.) under the Bisexual Banner. I carried the banner, wore the t-shirt, endured the mockery (I believe Dan Savage made a snarky comment about the number of bisexuals multiplying. It wasn't really a big deal, I am what I am. Then again, it's also easier to feel this way while safely ensconced in heterosexual privlige.).
Although I've dated women--one for two years--yes, I am in a relationship w/ an opposite sex partner. It's not "spooky" that I wound up w/ a man--to quote Dan Savage--so much as a matter of course.
Lesbians have grilled me about my preferences, gay men have mocked me. I've endured crappy service at the Wild Rose, I think because I'm definitely not butch but not a super hip and trendy femme either. (I'm also not a leper. I'm actually kind of cute, but who cares.) Again, this lack of acceptance was/is really not a big deal, particularly when you consider what gay men, lesbians and transgendered people have suffered (Remember Brandon Teena, Matthew Shephard, and others who were brutally murdered? Then there's Prop 8.). It just made it harder to find women to date.
Not being accepted in the lesbian community shrinks the pool of available women to date. I've participated in bisexual organizations in the past which was fun for a little while. I met some nice people, but everntually quit going once I realized that I didn't have much in common w/ group members other than sexual preference. (By the way, it was true that some women in the group were on their way to declaring themselves lesbians, but only some.) There was a lso a lot of overlap between bisexual and poly groups and I'm just not into the poly scene. I tried dating one man and one woman at the same time (not on the same dates as I am not a Penthouse lesbian) and it was just fatiguing. I don't know how the poly people do it.
I think, despite my feminism, that I am a product of my socialization, meaning that I find it difficult to be the pursuer. I tried to pursue women a few times and it was really difficult. I simply could not tell if they liked me. I couldn't read their signals. (The woman I dated for two years was very direct. That helped a lot.) Again, I swear I'm not a leper, although I felt like one when women rejected me. (From those experiences I've developed a sense of compassion for men and have since tried to be kind to the men I've rejected. I bought one a beer, but I digress.) Add to this difficulty the issue of not knowing if a woman is bi--since Lesbians are out of the question--and it's just too complicated.
I've been w/ my male partner for 11 years. I love him dearly and cannot imagine him not being a part of my life. Do I experience attraction for women? Yeah, sometimes. I also feel attraction to other men sometimes too. He, in turn, is attracted to other women at times. So what, it's part of life. Sexual attraction is often fleeting and not every desire must be consumated. Being bisexual simply means that I find both men and women sexually attractive and am willing to have relationships w/ either. But, in this binary world you're supposed to pick a camp and that's what works for most people. (Actually, there are more than two genders too but my post is already way too long.)
Given the violence and oppression gay men and lesbians continue to suffer, any resentment against bis in their communities makes sense as we bis can and do enjoy the luxury/convenience of not identifying. We lose complaining rights unless we're willing to put ourselves out there. I confess that I'm rather lazy in this regard, especially as I get older. Beyond arguing w/ people, wearing buttons here and there, donating the stray dollar or two donated to good causes, participating in an occasional demonstration (it's been a while), I haven't done much. SBW needs to look at the larger picture. Unless you're willing to put your ass on the line--and yeah, I put my ass on the line, less and less as I and it get older--you can't complain.
152
I love your post, #151, but I slightly disagree with one point you made:
Many bisexuals do identify, though. Many of us. And we do it, even though we catch hell from a lot more gays and lesbians than we ever do straights, much of it hardly justifiable.
Many of us also "put ourselves out there." Many of us. I don't think it's an issue of "complaining rights," as much as it's a decision we need to make on whether or not we're going to complain.
When I read shit like SBW sent in, I think to myself: Quoth Dan Savage: "Suck it up, bitch."
Given the violence and oppression gay men and lesbians continue to suffer, any resentment against bis in their communities makes sense as we bis can and do enjoy the luxury/convenience of not identifying. We lose complaining rights unless we're willing to put ourselves out there.
Many bisexuals do identify, though. Many of us. And we do it, even though we catch hell from a lot more gays and lesbians than we ever do straights, much of it hardly justifiable.
Many of us also "put ourselves out there." Many of us. I don't think it's an issue of "complaining rights," as much as it's a decision we need to make on whether or not we're going to complain.
When I read shit like SBW sent in, I think to myself: Quoth Dan Savage: "Suck it up, bitch."
153
Hey, 148.
You've got it backwards.
It's not that we recruit because we can't reproduce.
It's that heterosexuals have to reproduce, because you totally cannot recruit.
Just sayin'.
You've got it backwards.
It's not that we recruit because we can't reproduce.
It's that heterosexuals have to reproduce, because you totally cannot recruit.
Just sayin'.
154
@148 & 149 is writing pure fiction.
Chad, dude, nothing you are writing is actually real. Please don't act on your beliefs. They are delusional. See a psychiatrist or something. You're paranoid. I'm trying to help you here. To recruit you into reality. Gay people just aren't that well organized, fiendishly motivated, or powerful. We're just normal stupid humans with some different wiring in our brains, and we just want to live peaceful happy lives. Stop being so mean, stupid, and stupid, Chad. Calm down. Discover reality. Get help before you hurt somebody, and end up in jail.
Chad, dude, nothing you are writing is actually real. Please don't act on your beliefs. They are delusional. See a psychiatrist or something. You're paranoid. I'm trying to help you here. To recruit you into reality. Gay people just aren't that well organized, fiendishly motivated, or powerful. We're just normal stupid humans with some different wiring in our brains, and we just want to live peaceful happy lives. Stop being so mean, stupid, and stupid, Chad. Calm down. Discover reality. Get help before you hurt somebody, and end up in jail.
155
First off, l want to thank Jade and Violet both for their diplomatic and intelligent contributions. l agree with both of you, and would love to have a beer with you guys sometime. You can find me over on the forums if you're interested. There's also a thread in Free Skate called "Savage lnsults" that l started about this whole discussion if you're interested in participating.
That said, l have a few thoughts that may be somewhat redundant, since so many of the eloquent bisexuals and gays here have said what l wanted to say. l am a poly bisexual. l originally began exploring the poly world because l was fairly clear that l wan't willing to give up one preference for the other, and the poly world seemed to provide me with the opportunity to love both. l've since found that l just really like people in general, and that l'm happier when l can love whomever l choose.
But this plays into the debates surrounding the number of bis who end up in opposite sex relationships/marriages. Because monogamy is the more common type of relationship, bis are often forced to choose one or the other in order to even have a relationship. As #151 points out, some are quite happily monogamous, and that's great. For someone like me, were l to choose a monogamous man, l *might* be able to get away with an occasional threesome or something in order to indulge my queer side, but since my bisexuality extends beyond the sexual and my love for women includes who they are, it wouldn't work very well. lt never did in my monogamous relationships before discovering the poly world, and it felt like l was just settling for what l could get while indulging his insecurities about my bisexuality. This would apply to any woman as well, although dating a bi woman makes things easier when she understands where l'm coming from.
For those who claim to have never met a real bisexual, l wonder if maybe that's because your worlds are a little limited. l have certainly known a number of women who were active in relationships with both genders, and have been for a number of years. l don't believe it's whining if l occasionally have an issue with the way l'm treated and viewed, because for the most part, l DO suck it up because l know my life isn't near as difficult, and the intolerance l run into is limited. However, it's not my fault if the little Girls Gone Wild exhibitionists decide to further fuck up society's views of the bisexual community, and l'm forced to correct misinformation that much more as a result. That is frustrating.
lt's also frustrating that being bi doesn't necessarily expand my choices. As many have pointed out, dating in the lesbian community is damn near impossible, which sucks, because l've met a number of truly wonderful lesbians, some of whom l dated briefly, and chose to break up with because of all the shit their friends gave them. Since there aren't many bi-specific gatherings/venues, it makes finding other bi women challenging. Most straight men l date initially say they don't have a problem with my bisexuality, but the minute being with a woman threatens to become a reality, they're not quite so comfortable with it anymore.
This is all mostly explanation for those who may not understand some of the bi challenges, and as Rob pointed out, l'm fairly secure in my sexuality, and don't have much problem with what others may or may not think of me. However, what l *do* care about is the fact that l really love my gay friends, and l've lost a few once l shared my sexuality with them. l'm not sure l consider them assholes for this, because there seems to be some valid issues among the gays and lesbians that lead them to be skeptical, and l can't say l always blame them. But l've contributed cash to several LGBT groups, l've marched (and represented at the Prop 8 march as well - what a wonderful turnout of all sexual identities and families!), and l've done so not only because l would like the right to marry whomever l choose, but because my support for the gay community is deeply important to me. Hell, they're the only group l can really identify with, and adding to their numbers helps all of us.
l guess l just wish that there were more unity between the two. Not a single bisexual l know has ever pretended they dealt with the kind of bullshit GL's deal with, nor do they approve of *anyone* claiming to be bi dicking their same sex partners over and using their bisexuality as an excuse. Which is precisely what those particular assholes are doing; it isn't their bisexuality driving them to fuck people over, it's whatever deep-seated, self-indulgent emotional and cerebral damage they have going on. lf bisexuality were the culprit for cheating, then they'd be the only ones doing it. As someone else here said, blame the behavior and the one perpetuating it, not the orientation.
More...
That said, l have a few thoughts that may be somewhat redundant, since so many of the eloquent bisexuals and gays here have said what l wanted to say. l am a poly bisexual. l originally began exploring the poly world because l was fairly clear that l wan't willing to give up one preference for the other, and the poly world seemed to provide me with the opportunity to love both. l've since found that l just really like people in general, and that l'm happier when l can love whomever l choose.
But this plays into the debates surrounding the number of bis who end up in opposite sex relationships/marriages. Because monogamy is the more common type of relationship, bis are often forced to choose one or the other in order to even have a relationship. As #151 points out, some are quite happily monogamous, and that's great. For someone like me, were l to choose a monogamous man, l *might* be able to get away with an occasional threesome or something in order to indulge my queer side, but since my bisexuality extends beyond the sexual and my love for women includes who they are, it wouldn't work very well. lt never did in my monogamous relationships before discovering the poly world, and it felt like l was just settling for what l could get while indulging his insecurities about my bisexuality. This would apply to any woman as well, although dating a bi woman makes things easier when she understands where l'm coming from.
For those who claim to have never met a real bisexual, l wonder if maybe that's because your worlds are a little limited. l have certainly known a number of women who were active in relationships with both genders, and have been for a number of years. l don't believe it's whining if l occasionally have an issue with the way l'm treated and viewed, because for the most part, l DO suck it up because l know my life isn't near as difficult, and the intolerance l run into is limited. However, it's not my fault if the little Girls Gone Wild exhibitionists decide to further fuck up society's views of the bisexual community, and l'm forced to correct misinformation that much more as a result. That is frustrating.
lt's also frustrating that being bi doesn't necessarily expand my choices. As many have pointed out, dating in the lesbian community is damn near impossible, which sucks, because l've met a number of truly wonderful lesbians, some of whom l dated briefly, and chose to break up with because of all the shit their friends gave them. Since there aren't many bi-specific gatherings/venues, it makes finding other bi women challenging. Most straight men l date initially say they don't have a problem with my bisexuality, but the minute being with a woman threatens to become a reality, they're not quite so comfortable with it anymore.
This is all mostly explanation for those who may not understand some of the bi challenges, and as Rob pointed out, l'm fairly secure in my sexuality, and don't have much problem with what others may or may not think of me. However, what l *do* care about is the fact that l really love my gay friends, and l've lost a few once l shared my sexuality with them. l'm not sure l consider them assholes for this, because there seems to be some valid issues among the gays and lesbians that lead them to be skeptical, and l can't say l always blame them. But l've contributed cash to several LGBT groups, l've marched (and represented at the Prop 8 march as well - what a wonderful turnout of all sexual identities and families!), and l've done so not only because l would like the right to marry whomever l choose, but because my support for the gay community is deeply important to me. Hell, they're the only group l can really identify with, and adding to their numbers helps all of us.
l guess l just wish that there were more unity between the two. Not a single bisexual l know has ever pretended they dealt with the kind of bullshit GL's deal with, nor do they approve of *anyone* claiming to be bi dicking their same sex partners over and using their bisexuality as an excuse. Which is precisely what those particular assholes are doing; it isn't their bisexuality driving them to fuck people over, it's whatever deep-seated, self-indulgent emotional and cerebral damage they have going on. lf bisexuality were the culprit for cheating, then they'd be the only ones doing it. As someone else here said, blame the behavior and the one perpetuating it, not the orientation.
156
"Although this seems to cause bisexuals huge amount of grief, you're not meaningfully discriminated against, as bisexuals -- only when you are gay."
Well, I've been stalked and lost my housing because of my bisexuality. Is that enough? Or do I have to be beaten up before it counts?
Well, I've been stalked and lost my housing because of my bisexuality. Is that enough? Or do I have to be beaten up before it counts?
157
look, it's not hard
if a man is attracted to other men three times as much as he is attracted to women then for every 40 people he is attracted to:
10 are female, 30 are male, 90% of all are straight so
9 straight females, 3 gay males for his prospective dates
so even though he is attracted to males three times as much as females, he is three times more likely to get a date with a female he finds attractive than a male he finds attractive
so is it any wonder he's more likely to wind up with a straight female?
if a man is attracted to other men three times as much as he is attracted to women then for every 40 people he is attracted to:
10 are female, 30 are male, 90% of all are straight so
9 straight females, 3 gay males for his prospective dates
so even though he is attracted to males three times as much as females, he is three times more likely to get a date with a female he finds attractive than a male he finds attractive
so is it any wonder he's more likely to wind up with a straight female?
158
to all you morons who think bisexuals have "hetero privliege"-read this: http://bisocialnews.com/bisexuls-hetero-…
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