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News & ArtsTuesday, January 13, 2009
Homo Re: Gay Logic
Posted by Dan Savage on Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 12:32 PM
The bar in the image used on the poster? Pony. No one grieves for Pony more than I do—I loved that place—but when you open gay bars in buildings that are already slated for demolition, then you've got a gay bar on your hands that is destined to close, condos or no condos. The LGBT Center? It failed all on its own, kids, thanks to piss-poor management and an expensive & losing battle to keep the pride parade on Capitol Hill against the wishes of a clear majority of the gay community (all the while claiming to speak for the gay community).
And the ricin threat was ignored by our media? Not hardly. It made the Stranger, both Seattle dailies, local TV news, the cable news networks, and papers as far away as Australia and China. The Seattle Times, to its credit, ran an editorial condemning the ricin threat.
Want to attract "queer Seattleites and our allies" to your cause? Be straight with people. Want to make yourself ridiculous? Continue to lie your fool asses off.
1
Actually, the ricin thing was sort of ignored by the P-I, which surprised me. I never saw it covered in anything other than a blog post on their site (not a "real" article by a reporter).
3
I agree with the sentiment of the poster, but you're right, Dan, the examples they use don't make any sense. I'm all for more "queer spaces" but they don't just create and run themselves. And propaganda like that poster just comes across as reactionary sour grapes rather than a rational call to action.
4
I will agree that including an image of Pony IS ridiculous...Pony opened up in that location fully aware that it was to be a temporary location. It would have made more sense to have an image of Manray, the only gay bar that WAS dislocated and wasn't able to reopen.
And, the LGBT Center DID fail due to gross mismanagement on the part of the board and the Executive Director but a significant part of the blame can also be attributed to the Queer community itself for failing to support the Center. The modern, yuppie/hipster, Seattle queer with money doesn't think that there is a need for a queer center so they won't support it with their time or their money. Meanwhile, disadvantaged members of the community that COULD use help with resources provided by a well-funded and organized center with interesting and exciting programs are left out in the cold.
And, the LGBT Center DID fail due to gross mismanagement on the part of the board and the Executive Director but a significant part of the blame can also be attributed to the Queer community itself for failing to support the Center. The modern, yuppie/hipster, Seattle queer with money doesn't think that there is a need for a queer center so they won't support it with their time or their money. Meanwhile, disadvantaged members of the community that COULD use help with resources provided by a well-funded and organized center with interesting and exciting programs are left out in the cold.
5
So, Michael, you're faulting the queer community -- the yuppies, at least -- for failing to support an organization with a lousy ED and an inept board?
So long as the dimmest and the dullest are put in charge of community orgs around here, the queer community should not be faulted for refusing to flush money down the toilet by writing checks to failing orgs.
And before anyone accuses us of causing the Center to fail because we never, ever helped 'em out in any way at all:
http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/seatt…
So long as the dimmest and the dullest are put in charge of community orgs around here, the queer community should not be faulted for refusing to flush money down the toilet by writing checks to failing orgs.
And before anyone accuses us of causing the Center to fail because we never, ever helped 'em out in any way at all:
http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/seatt…
6
I can easily agree that the LGBT Center was poorly run. But so is SOAP. And whether you like it or not (Dan doesn't) a significant amount of Seattle queer types wanted to keep the parade on Broadway. It's disingenous to represent those people as a fringe minority alinged with poorly managed nonprofits.
7
Michael I have asked you this before but what sort of "interesting and exciting programs" are we deprived of by the closing of the LGBT Center. Sure the Queer Art program there was worthwhile but that was independent of the Center. They said their main mission was to have a computer for queers that could not afford Internet access and were too afraid to use the one's in the library to research gay issues but hardly worth the hundreds of thousands of dollars per year.
8
SOAP isn't perfect, but it was the lesser of two inept evils, obviously.
And, yes, a significant and vocal number of folks -- who falsely claimed to speak for all gay people -- preferred the parade on the hill. They were in the minority, like I said, and they lost this debate. And the LGBT Center went out of business in its ham-handed attempt to cater to those holding the minority opinion.
So I'd say it's accurate to "represent those people as a fringe minority alinged with poorly managed nonprofits."
And, yes, a significant and vocal number of folks -- who falsely claimed to speak for all gay people -- preferred the parade on the hill. They were in the minority, like I said, and they lost this debate. And the LGBT Center went out of business in its ham-handed attempt to cater to those holding the minority opinion.
So I'd say it's accurate to "represent those people as a fringe minority alinged with poorly managed nonprofits."
10
And you'd be wrong.
As SOAP still has many unpaid small vendors and still an oustanding debt ($100,000 dollar range believe) to the City of Seattle I can't agree with you about the lesser of two evils point. That seems pretty evil to me.
And, as I recall from the contentious discussions of months ago, all sides purported to speak for the majority, as you are doing now, Dan. Yep, you won. The Parade's downtown. Hurrah. It's not the issue.
Our nonprofits all need to be run responsibly for any of them to be taken seriously. The SOAP vs. the Center argument shows two hugely dysfunctionall nonprofits as the standard for the Seattle glbt community.
It's an inaccurate, misleading argument, in what should be an frank discussion about how to get things done.
As SOAP still has many unpaid small vendors and still an oustanding debt ($100,000 dollar range believe) to the City of Seattle I can't agree with you about the lesser of two evils point. That seems pretty evil to me.
And, as I recall from the contentious discussions of months ago, all sides purported to speak for the majority, as you are doing now, Dan. Yep, you won. The Parade's downtown. Hurrah. It's not the issue.
Our nonprofits all need to be run responsibly for any of them to be taken seriously. The SOAP vs. the Center argument shows two hugely dysfunctionall nonprofits as the standard for the Seattle glbt community.
It's an inaccurate, misleading argument, in what should be an frank discussion about how to get things done.
11
Just because something is broken, doesn't mean you can't fix it. Disfuntional organizations CAN be fixed if people are willing to volunteer their time and energy. There were/are some wonderful people on the Board at the Center (and there were/are some real jackasses) and they were always looking for new members; I was even approached by a board member to join them and I was flattered but as I pointed out to her, you don't need MORE Michael Strangeways types on your board, (meaning poor, well-meaning arty-type nobodies) you need people with money and power and clout and the ability to organize and adequately find funding for the Center. The Board failed to find these people and apparently the people that could have most helped weren't willing or able to step up to the plate. As a result, we ended up with a Center that resembled a church basement in a small, back waters town: sweet, well-meaning but of little use to the community as a whole.
And, Bill, when I referred to interesting and exciting programs, I meant the programs we SHOULD have had, not the meager, unfunded ones we DID have...And the arts program was not independent, it was a Center program albeit a (practically) non-funded program and what little funds that were used, came primarily out of MY pocket the last year it was in operation...
And, finally, the Center failed for a number of reasons, not just one or two. The combination of bad management, lack of focus, under-funding, and the typical back-biting and in-fighting that plagues most queer community groups and institutions is what killed it and the losers in all this are the people that a center could actually benefit.
And, Bill, when I referred to interesting and exciting programs, I meant the programs we SHOULD have had, not the meager, unfunded ones we DID have...And the arts program was not independent, it was a Center program albeit a (practically) non-funded program and what little funds that were used, came primarily out of MY pocket the last year it was in operation...
And, finally, the Center failed for a number of reasons, not just one or two. The combination of bad management, lack of focus, under-funding, and the typical back-biting and in-fighting that plagues most queer community groups and institutions is what killed it and the losers in all this are the people that a center could actually benefit.
12
@4 and7 Has anyone gotten shit for researching gay issues in a Seattle library in say the last decade? Hell if your a gay in Seattle and can't find other gays your simply antisocial.
What we need is centers in rural Washington, especially for youth. Not a donation funded internet cafe and social club downtown.
What we need is centers in rural Washington, especially for youth. Not a donation funded internet cafe and social club downtown.
13
#12
I don't know if anyone HAS gotten shit from library staff for researching gay issues in the public library, but I do know that people who DID use that resource in the LGBT Center felt safer and more comfortable doing so in a queer friendly environment without having to worry about the people sitting next to them freaking out because they were doing research on their sex reassignment surgery...
I don't know if anyone HAS gotten shit from library staff for researching gay issues in the public library, but I do know that people who DID use that resource in the LGBT Center felt safer and more comfortable doing so in a queer friendly environment without having to worry about the people sitting next to them freaking out because they were doing research on their sex reassignment surgery...
14
SOAP was 100% volunteer run. Dr Thompkins I don't remember seeing you helping out. Did you? If not shut the fuck up. Dr. T you don't know shit from Shin-o-la. SOAP is not a non-profit. GHEEEEEZUZ some people talk first and Ask questions later. Seattle's LGBT folk voted for the parade on 4th ave by SHOWING UP on 4th Ave. Again the Good Doc is sicker than a poisoned Rat.
16
#14 - the "you didn't help us" argument for sick, diseased organizations just doesn't fly. I've put in my time with plenty of volunteer organizations and I only stick around for the ones that can get it done right.
I did, in fact, show up in the beginning to try and sort out the incredible mess that SOAP produced by the way the handled the move. What I got back was a faceful of hateful, screaming, butt-ignorant guys like you without a whit of common sense.
The parade is downtown. Great. People like it. Great. Ignoring the fact that SOAP is a mess will come back to bite us all in the ass. It never works to scream at others until the problems go away. Because they dont go awayuntil you FIX THEM.
I did, in fact, show up in the beginning to try and sort out the incredible mess that SOAP produced by the way the handled the move. What I got back was a faceful of hateful, screaming, butt-ignorant guys like you without a whit of common sense.
The parade is downtown. Great. People like it. Great. Ignoring the fact that SOAP is a mess will come back to bite us all in the ass. It never works to scream at others until the problems go away. Because they dont go awayuntil you FIX THEM.
17
I agree with your assessment of the LGBT community center. What a waste. But the point is we as a community have serious problems and threats. And who can blame some people for thinking we are "under attack" from several directions?
18
god I miss Pony. Only time I ever got fucked *in* a bar instead of after going to one. Great times. RIP.
19
The main mission was "a computer for queers that could not afford Internet access and were too afraid to use the one's in the library to research gay issues"? In SEATTLE?
Jesus H. Christ, give me a lunch break with a three dollar meal voucher, because now I've certainly heard everything. This isn't Tulsa, for Chrissake. Unless you're looking at hardcore porn, who in the library is going even notice you?
Jesus H. Christ, give me a lunch break with a three dollar meal voucher, because now I've certainly heard everything. This isn't Tulsa, for Chrissake. Unless you're looking at hardcore porn, who in the library is going even notice you?
20
I like the posters. What was Pony? a gay bar. Before it was Pony? A gay bar. And now it's a goddamn parking lot. Are you seriously going to say that the death of the Bus Stop and Pony doesn't represent the decline of gay spaces? And let's not forget Vivace, now in that fugly Brix of shit building... admittedly for light rail, but I miss that café.
Yeah, the LGBT Center failed for a lot of reasons. One of them was $2,000 or $4,000 (I don't remember) a month rent on Pike Street. Now the "most visible" LGBT organization--ERW--lives down in a god-awful office on First Hill next to I-5. They can't even buzz someone into their office! You have to wait for someone to look at your face on the camera and then come downstairs to let you in. It's an unwelcoming space and it embodies the new face of mainstream LGBT activism. It's nothing more than a private office focused on two goals: fundraising and lobbying. No more community there. It's like walking into a lawyer's office.
For all of their lists, for all of their money, ERW can't offer any support or mobilization for an anti-DOMA rally except for their most junior staff person? Is this the community organizing we've come to expect? I feel like I'm being told by my "community leaders" that I'm stupid for wanting to protest DOMA. Should I not be angry anymore? Why the hell wasn't ERW mobilizing?
Yeah, the posters could have better font choices. But our biggest, most wealthy LGBT organization doesn't mobilize against DOMA, hasn't offered the slightest leadership or demonstrated support for Q Patrols, and can't even address that "affordable housing" is a $1,100 studio. I'm gay and living on the Hill--in a $400 room in a house. I can't afford my rent tripling, but my house was just bought by a developer. I'm fucked. Where am I supposed to go? I don't want to live in goddamn Burien.
I like the posters. They know who my enemies are and where my interests lie.
More...
Yeah, the LGBT Center failed for a lot of reasons. One of them was $2,000 or $4,000 (I don't remember) a month rent on Pike Street. Now the "most visible" LGBT organization--ERW--lives down in a god-awful office on First Hill next to I-5. They can't even buzz someone into their office! You have to wait for someone to look at your face on the camera and then come downstairs to let you in. It's an unwelcoming space and it embodies the new face of mainstream LGBT activism. It's nothing more than a private office focused on two goals: fundraising and lobbying. No more community there. It's like walking into a lawyer's office.
For all of their lists, for all of their money, ERW can't offer any support or mobilization for an anti-DOMA rally except for their most junior staff person? Is this the community organizing we've come to expect? I feel like I'm being told by my "community leaders" that I'm stupid for wanting to protest DOMA. Should I not be angry anymore? Why the hell wasn't ERW mobilizing?
Yeah, the posters could have better font choices. But our biggest, most wealthy LGBT organization doesn't mobilize against DOMA, hasn't offered the slightest leadership or demonstrated support for Q Patrols, and can't even address that "affordable housing" is a $1,100 studio. I'm gay and living on the Hill--in a $400 room in a house. I can't afford my rent tripling, but my house was just bought by a developer. I'm fucked. Where am I supposed to go? I don't want to live in goddamn Burien.
I like the posters. They know who my enemies are and where my interests lie.
21
"continue to lie your fool asses off"...kind of histrionic dan, the poster isn't that far off the mark...your need to pooh pooh everything queer has done much more harm to our community than this cute little poster. get a life dude.
22
The rent was WAAAAAAAAAY more than 2 to 4 grand....Over 5, I think and the terms were horrible. Whoever negotiated the original lease with the landlord, did NOT know what they were doing.
And, the Center WAS growing broke but it was also losing its lease and would have had to move anyway...Anne Coulson(?) the landlord, wanted the space back to house her own business.
And, the Center WAS growing broke but it was also losing its lease and would have had to move anyway...Anne Coulson(?) the landlord, wanted the space back to house her own business.
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