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News & ArtsMonday, January 12, 2009
Savage Love Savage Love Letters of the Day
Posted by Dan Savage on Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 4:48 PM
With recent events in California regarding the 28 year-old lesbian being brutally beaten and gang raped perhaps people in media may want to be more responsible regarding their woman hating tendencies.
I have just listened to Dan Savage's podcast where he was talking to a "caller" who was supposedly lesbian but "craves cock." Dan went on to say how many lesbians crave cock. Can someone please educate this idiot that this "caller" is bisexual with leanings towards women? I find it very disappointing that your newspaper would have this person write for you, yet have no one of the lesbian persuasion doing the same thing. Many male-run magazines insist on leaving a real lesbian voice out so they can live in a fantasy world. Dan Savage's make believe world is one where everyone loves men, men, men! Men are so spectacular, and everyone craves cock, even lesbians! That is a deranged farce. Only gay men are disgusted by women and neeeeever come on to women. Wrong. Every women knows this is false. Gay men where I live are constantly coming on to straight women, lesbians, bisexual women, and are always sleeping with their slutty faghags.Please inform this uneducated columnist that lesbians don't crave cock as he stated about 15 times in his latest podcast. This is very hurtful to the lesbian community.
Fem In The City
I could argue with you, FITC—there's so much to argue with, particularly your opening sentence—but I'm thinkin' it might be better if I just step out of the way and run another reader's letter, below, that arrived the same day that your letter did. I will say this though: there are a lot of lesbian-identified women out there who may technically be bisexual; just as there are tons of straight-identified men out there who may be technically be bisexual. But who's to say that someone can't or shouldn't round themselves up or down, as the case may be, and embrace a professed sexual identity that they feel most accurately reflects 1. their desires and 2. how they choose to lives their lives?
And, I'm sorry, but the gay men where you live are very different from the gay men where I live. Sleeping with faghags? Maybe in high school, maybe under duress. But not grownup gay men. Anyway, you might want to sit down before you read this...
You remarked recently that "gay teens are having straight sex in order 'to prove they are heterosexual to avoid harassment and discrimination'". I couldn't help but laugh in light of a sad, and sometimes, deadly reality: many good-looking lesbians (and even some of the not-so-good-looking lesbians) are having unprotected sex with men.There I said it!
It's take a lot of sneaking around and lying to one's self for lesbians to have sex with men. I know one woman who had the balls to fuck a guy while her girlfriend was passed out on vicodin & ambien in the other room. The excuse for not using protection or getting tested for HIV? "I'm a lesbian." Muncher, please!
Lessons learned from this alleged "Kinsey 6" hussie:
1) Don't assume just because a woman is a lesbian that her honeypot does not have any flies.
2) A lesbian that scorns another lesbian for being honest about fucking a guy is probably a big fat cocksucker herself.
3) Get yourself tested twice a year (NO EXCUSES).Straight Talking Diva Telling Recalcitrant Unapologetic Truths Handily (STD-TRUTH)
3
Every gay black man I've ever met sleeps with women at least once in a while (and most of them live in a 20 block radius of The Stranger's offices). This is probably why black women have had the highest HIV infection rate increases for years now.
4
My understanding is that people sometimes have sex with people you wouldn't necessarily expect them to, and other people sometimes get weirdly bent out of shape over this fact, and these people are also not always the ones you'd expect (i.e., sometimes sexy lesbians, not just Sam Brownback).
There are only two universal human drives: the sex drive, and the drive to find out who other people are having sex with so you can tut-tut a little. Whoever you are, whatever you're doing, you're doing it wrong.
There are only two universal human drives: the sex drive, and the drive to find out who other people are having sex with so you can tut-tut a little. Whoever you are, whatever you're doing, you're doing it wrong.
9
Further proof that homosexuality is a behavior people engage in (or don't) and not a state of being that they 'are'.
CHOICE
CHOICE
11
Oh, Dan, you have no IDEA how many VERY VERY gay men want to take many of my hot butch lesbian friends home. Hell, I had to drag a couple off my girl on Saturday night at the Cuff, they wanted a threesome with her. It ain't just the dykes gettin' all queer and freaky with it.
12
Could you choose to be gay, @9? For even, like, an hour? What exactly would you say it is that keeps you from sucking cock? Do you really think it's because you've just decided not to? Would you do it anyways if you really liked a person, or if you felt you owed him something, or maybe if he paid you some money? How much would it take? Are you sure you don't find the idea just a little disgusting, maybe? A little icky? Why do you think your sexual preference is ingrained into your soul, but other peoples' sexual preferences aren't?
13
WAY too much brain damage for me. You get some mighty strange letters, sir, but hey, at least you've got a job.
I've come to the conclusion that nobody's 100% anything - straight, gay, you name it. Some of us get pretty fucking close to 100%, but nobody, no matter how much they protest, is wired to be 100%.
So on that note, please feel free to tell these people to go fuck themselves. Hell, you don't need my permission to do that. And they probably expect that out of you anyway.
I've come to the conclusion that nobody's 100% anything - straight, gay, you name it. Some of us get pretty fucking close to 100%, but nobody, no matter how much they protest, is wired to be 100%.
So on that note, please feel free to tell these people to go fuck themselves. Hell, you don't need my permission to do that. And they probably expect that out of you anyway.
14
So wait, according to this person, lesbians really don't want to be penetrated, ever, but tons of gay men really wanna fuck women?
15
13 is right, to a point. I do think that there are some 0s and 6s out there, but I think that most people are 1-5. And those of us who are, have preferences. I think the sexual preferences come into play the closer we are to 0 or 6.
In that sense, yes, it's a choice. And I think that's part of what makes homosexuals so uncomfortable about bisexuals. But bisexuality (or fluid orientation) is no more a choice than homosexuality.
I also think that personality and gender influences our decisions on whom to date. I get along a hell of a lot better with straight and gay men than I do straight or gay women. That's not 100%, of course, but it's enough that I date more men than women.
Also, numbers determine things too. There are more straight guys out there than lesbians. And straight guys--for the most part--don't have a problem with bi girls as much as lesbians do.
Finally, most bisexuals don't identify as bi. They identify with the relationship they're in or they identify with their preferences. Consequently, we seem to be a minority, but we are not. As 13 said, we're actually a majority. And because we allow ourselves to be considered a minority, we're our own worst enemy.
In that sense, yes, it's a choice. And I think that's part of what makes homosexuals so uncomfortable about bisexuals. But bisexuality (or fluid orientation) is no more a choice than homosexuality.
I also think that personality and gender influences our decisions on whom to date. I get along a hell of a lot better with straight and gay men than I do straight or gay women. That's not 100%, of course, but it's enough that I date more men than women.
Also, numbers determine things too. There are more straight guys out there than lesbians. And straight guys--for the most part--don't have a problem with bi girls as much as lesbians do.
Finally, most bisexuals don't identify as bi. They identify with the relationship they're in or they identify with their preferences. Consequently, we seem to be a minority, but we are not. As 13 said, we're actually a majority. And because we allow ourselves to be considered a minority, we're our own worst enemy.
17
I'm sure 12 is choosing NOT to be gay all the time. Choosing ever so hard and only occasionally having sex in restroom stalls with strangers.
Anyway, Dan is so curmudgeonly sometimes. It's sort of adorable. Yes Dan, some grown men who call themselves gay do occasionally have sex with women. Most of them prefer to have sex with men, but would stick their dick in warm mashed potatoes if that was the only thing hanging around the apartment at midnight. Some even like having sex with women, and might be more accurate if they called themselves bi but don't want to be affiliated with those Renne Faire looking people who dominate the bi-activist world. And the dykes who love cock don't want to call themselves bi because that's what desperate girls do to get more friends on MySpace.
Anyway, Dan is so curmudgeonly sometimes. It's sort of adorable. Yes Dan, some grown men who call themselves gay do occasionally have sex with women. Most of them prefer to have sex with men, but would stick their dick in warm mashed potatoes if that was the only thing hanging around the apartment at midnight. Some even like having sex with women, and might be more accurate if they called themselves bi but don't want to be affiliated with those Renne Faire looking people who dominate the bi-activist world. And the dykes who love cock don't want to call themselves bi because that's what desperate girls do to get more friends on MySpace.
18
@16, the "don't be silly, it's only a lifestyle choice" is pretty much exclusively the province of heterosexual bigots -- or bigots who wish they were more heterosexual than they secretly fear they are.
19
18
leaping to assumptions about people you don't know based on tiny shreds of information; skin color, accent, a comment; is the definition of bigotry
leaping to assumptions about people you don't know based on tiny shreds of information; skin color, accent, a comment; is the definition of bigotry
20
17.
haha! So true. A few years ago, Dan wrote something along the lines of: "I can hear your offended bisexual tone from your letter," and I laughed my ass off because I knew exactly what he meant.
Some even like having sex with women, and might be more accurate if they called themselves bi but don't want to be affiliated with those Renne Faire looking people who dominate the bi-activist world. And the dykes who love cock don't want to call themselves bi because that's what desperate girls do to get more friends on MySpace.
haha! So true. A few years ago, Dan wrote something along the lines of: "I can hear your offended bisexual tone from your letter," and I laughed my ass off because I knew exactly what he meant.
21
19.
No it's not.
leaping to assumptions about people you don't know based on tiny shreds of information; skin color, accent, a comment; is the definition of bigotry
No it's not.
24
It sounds like the first letter writer thinks that Dan Savage is *just* a columnist for The Stranger, and that is funny.
Also, I'll say what Dan didn't say: I don't think the "media" is necessarily responsible for this gang-rape but rather the guys who did the gang-raping.
Also, I'll say what Dan didn't say: I don't think the "media" is necessarily responsible for this gang-rape but rather the guys who did the gang-raping.
26
Farkleberry, you say funny, I say annoying! "Dear Microsoft, that guy Bill Gates offends me, so you should fire him." ugggggh.
27
Queers tryin' to git sum poon-tang? Riiiiiight. 5 minutes near ECB will convince them the error of their ways.
28
Research I did for a paper I wrote at UW in 2004 agrees with STD-TRUTH: One study I cited concluded that lesbian-identified women were actually more likely than straight-identified women to contract HIV because they were more likely to have unprotected sex with men who have sex with men.
29
Most of my dyke friends do it with dudes. And all of them think about it. And we're as gay as can be. Just sayin...
30
During the year I lived among the Spokane Lesbians, they often spoke of other lesbians whom they considered suspicious because they had been with men (At which point they would all stop and glower at me)
Then one of them would invariably repeat their mantra "Where there's an STD, there's been a man", and everyone would nod, me included (I was afraid not to)
Oh, those Spokane Lesbians. Talk about a barrel of fun!
Then one of them would invariably repeat their mantra "Where there's an STD, there's been a man", and everyone would nod, me included (I was afraid not to)
Oh, those Spokane Lesbians. Talk about a barrel of fun!
32
@9: You can't argue that heterosexuality is a state of being, but homosexuality is a choice.
SEX is a behavior people engage in. The only thing this proves is that some people just want their penis touched.
SEX is a behavior people engage in. The only thing this proves is that some people just want their penis touched.
34
Fem in the city we KNOW not all lesbians dig cock (me in particular), but my interpretation of Dan Savage's remarks regarding this matter on his podcast, was that there are many Anne Heches in the world, more than you could imagine (wonder how many aliens are really out there) and that it is OK. I just don't get how this is hurful to the lesbian community.
35
Everybody knows Dan's column skews a bit "Ladyparts are icky! Boyparts are good!" But since everybody DOES know that, they can factor it into how they take his advice.
36
"Gay men where I live are constantly coming on to straight women, lesbians, bisexual women, and are always sleeping with their slutty faghags."
Well, gay men where *I* live don't need to sleep with "slutty faghags" cuz there are PLENTY of hot, sexy men around. Speaking for myself, I have never had sex with a woman (lesbian or otherwise) and have ZERO desire to do so.
And why in the hell does The Stranger need a lesbian sex columnist to "balance" with Dan? Sorry, but no dice. Dan's the man, babe...
Well, gay men where *I* live don't need to sleep with "slutty faghags" cuz there are PLENTY of hot, sexy men around. Speaking for myself, I have never had sex with a woman (lesbian or otherwise) and have ZERO desire to do so.
And why in the hell does The Stranger need a lesbian sex columnist to "balance" with Dan? Sorry, but no dice. Dan's the man, babe...
37
IMHO, the Klein Grid, developed by the late Fritz Klein, remains the gold standard for thinking about bisexuality. http://www.bisexual.org/kleingrid.html
And the Klein Grid still does not capture all the nuances of how individuals interact with others of all genders. For example, I like sucking cock, and I like being penetrated anally, but mostly I like doing it when a woman is involved, too. I have had a few gay boy friends, but I vastly prefer bi men who like the smell of pussy on me.
And for some of us, intimacy with someone who really cares about us is far better than intimacy with the most attractive pink bits.
Saying you are lesbian, gay, or bi is like saying you live in Seattle. The next steps are to find out the neighborhood, street, and house you live in.
Silenus
And the Klein Grid still does not capture all the nuances of how individuals interact with others of all genders. For example, I like sucking cock, and I like being penetrated anally, but mostly I like doing it when a woman is involved, too. I have had a few gay boy friends, but I vastly prefer bi men who like the smell of pussy on me.
And for some of us, intimacy with someone who really cares about us is far better than intimacy with the most attractive pink bits.
Saying you are lesbian, gay, or bi is like saying you live in Seattle. The next steps are to find out the neighborhood, street, and house you live in.
Silenus
39
I do not find women sexually attractive at all. I don't find them disgusting either, but I just have zero sexual arousal for them. I was watching the Penn & Teller's series, Bull Shit, and they were doing a piece on prostitution. The show was filled with completely nude women in hot tubs, showering...Nothing. (This used to cause me so much torment in my younger years before I finally just accepted my sexuality. Straight was something I just could not will myself to be, but I can truly say that now, in my gay 40's, I am the happiest I've ever been in my entire life.)
Maybe I live a sheltered gay life, but I can't think of even one of my friends who would sleep with a woman. Many of them married young, thinking they could pretend the gay away, but have since divorced. They have absolutely no desire for female companionship. (This also allowed their straight wives to move on to straight men.)
Maybe I live a sheltered gay life, but I can't think of even one of my friends who would sleep with a woman. Many of them married young, thinking they could pretend the gay away, but have since divorced. They have absolutely no desire for female companionship. (This also allowed their straight wives to move on to straight men.)
40
I have a very good lesbian friend who gets "crushes" on older (wayyyy older, daddy issues hello) men all the time. But she doesn't want to sleep with them, she just gets that crushy feeling. She only sleeps with women. Some people would tell her to identify as bi, but that wouldn't be fair because she would never ever date a man. Your professed sexual identity is as much for you as it is for prospective partners.
41
the hetro "it's a choice" bigots often think something made a person choose to be gay. they think it's a choice, but -- like a disease -- you can "catch" gay. maybe you experimented in college. maybe you were abused as a boy. etc... etc... even if you desire it, they argue, you must choose not do. that is the choice, in their view, because everyone who has consensual sex "chooses" to have it -- so it is always a "choice" in their minds.
the homo-identified "it's a choice" bigots are perhaps bi (as described above) or believe their desires are wrong. this often happens with religious upbringing, and their thinking is similar to the hetros. this is a sad case, of course, because they feel one way, but try their hardest to choose the other. they say it's a choice because they try in earnest to choose the hetro way. when they "fail" they feel guilty for making the wrong choice -- as someone who has quit smoking feels when they sneak a drag.
it's the bi "it's a choice" bigots that actually justify their opinion with by their own actions (or by the lifestyle choices they aspire to). if you think about it, someone who has bi feelings is in more of position to say it's a choice because for them -- using the logic above -- it actually is a choice. they may want the cock but choose not to. i'm not saying they are right, but that your very stereotype of them makes it more of choice than not.
whether it's a choice or biological, i see no reason people shouldn't be allowed to sleep with who they choose (as long as it is consensual, etc... ) or are drawn to. i offer the above only to clarify where the bigots are bigots are coming from, and why they feel justified in their error. when you understand where someone is coming from, you can better address their issues.
i also think it's funny how there's always a group of people to complain about. as if it's wrong (socially) to be homo but occasionally have hetro relations. there's always a box we want to put people into, isn't there?
More...
the homo-identified "it's a choice" bigots are perhaps bi (as described above) or believe their desires are wrong. this often happens with religious upbringing, and their thinking is similar to the hetros. this is a sad case, of course, because they feel one way, but try their hardest to choose the other. they say it's a choice because they try in earnest to choose the hetro way. when they "fail" they feel guilty for making the wrong choice -- as someone who has quit smoking feels when they sneak a drag.
it's the bi "it's a choice" bigots that actually justify their opinion with by their own actions (or by the lifestyle choices they aspire to). if you think about it, someone who has bi feelings is in more of position to say it's a choice because for them -- using the logic above -- it actually is a choice. they may want the cock but choose not to. i'm not saying they are right, but that your very stereotype of them makes it more of choice than not.
whether it's a choice or biological, i see no reason people shouldn't be allowed to sleep with who they choose (as long as it is consensual, etc... ) or are drawn to. i offer the above only to clarify where the bigots are bigots are coming from, and why they feel justified in their error. when you understand where someone is coming from, you can better address their issues.
i also think it's funny how there's always a group of people to complain about. as if it's wrong (socially) to be homo but occasionally have hetro relations. there's always a box we want to put people into, isn't there?
42
I love that the first letter calls Dan out on his supposed "woman hating tendencies" and then goes on to judge faghags for being "sluts." She needs to get a clue.
43
The whole "Choice/Born with teh Gay" argument sort of misses the point.
There's nothing wrong with it.
Yeah, stupid straight Seinfeld comment, but there it is. Gay people deserve equal rights entirely because being gay (or bi or sexually fluid) doesn't hurt anyone. In fact it makes a lot of people happy. People who are opposed to gay rights and say "it's a choice" don't really care if you're born that way or not.
There's nothing wrong with it.
Yeah, stupid straight Seinfeld comment, but there it is. Gay people deserve equal rights entirely because being gay (or bi or sexually fluid) doesn't hurt anyone. In fact it makes a lot of people happy. People who are opposed to gay rights and say "it's a choice" don't really care if you're born that way or not.
44
43, you just pretty much nailed it. I've always disliked the "science will prove it's not a choice" defense because, at the end of the day, it's no one's business. Or at least it shouldn't be.
Moreover, that argument is never going to sway the religious right anyway. They may disdainfully say it's a choice, but they don't care either way. Their answer to "it's not a choice" is "be celibate."
Moreover, that argument is never going to sway the religious right anyway. They may disdainfully say it's a choice, but they don't care either way. Their answer to "it's not a choice" is "be celibate."
45
and also who the fuck cares who sleeps with whom and when and who the fuck arouses someone or not and if it changes from one day to the next and if you sometimes fuck boys or sometimes fuck girls and sometimes you are attracted to daddy types and sometimes you are attracted to femmy butchy straighty gays? Fuck and fuck and fuck. Who cares. Be safe. Who gives a fucking fuck how you identify. It is boring as being a "housewife" in the fifties...
This identifying thing is as stultifying as any heteronormative vanilla bullshit right-wing christian how you should-be-like-I-am yawn inducing preaching to your own choir tent revival.
This identifying thing is as stultifying as any heteronormative vanilla bullshit right-wing christian how you should-be-like-I-am yawn inducing preaching to your own choir tent revival.
46
45. These days, I think the only time it's important or necessary to "self-identify" or label ourselves is when we're doing some type of activism work for the nonexistent LGBTQ "community."
48
I would like to offer a simple, multi-purpose mantra once shared with me by a friend: "People hump."
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