Monday, January 12, 2009
International Meanwhile in Gaza...
Posted by Brendan Kiley on Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 9:40 AM
... bombs fall on a children's hospital, some American kids are trying to get the hell out of there, and white phosphorus bombs (which are banned from being deployed against civilians) are falling:
"One landed in my kitchen and caused a fire," said Zohair Mohammed abu Rejila, 35. "I went to put it out, but another one landed on Mayar, my baby daughter. It was like a block of fire, a piece of plastic on fire. When I knocked it off her, it exploded and out came this heavy white smoke with a very bad smell."
The Israeli army all but admits it:
Asked whether the military was using white phosphorus, an army spokesman refused to confirm or deny the claim and insisted that everything being used was within the bounds of international law."We are only using what is being used by other Western armies — we are not using anything out of the ordinary," he said.
Gazan deaths, so far, are estimated at around 900. What does Bush say?
What does Obama say?
"We only have one president at a time."
What does Israeli Prime Minister Olmert say?
"Fuck you, U.N. Fuck you, everybody. We are in it to win it."
What does Andrew Sullivan say?
Let us check some of the effects of the Krauthammer-style offensive: a greater association in the Arab-Muslim mind that the US is on the side of corrupt and brutal Arab autocracies; widespread global revulsion at the sight of a vastly superior army causing, even unintentionally, horrifying civilian casualties; a greater identification with Hamas among Gazans; a weakening of the Palestinian Authority on the West Bank; growing sympathy from the Sunni Arab street toward the Tehran theocracy.
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1
I think we should declare that Israel, Gaza, Golan, the West Bank, etc. belong to nobody, because so far every group that has laid claim to one of those areas has been composed of asshats.
2
I have to admit, the Jews certianly learned an important lesson from the Nazi's. Destory you enemy and make them extinct. I half expect Israel to build ovens for the Palestinians any day now.
3
Anybody saying we wouldn't completely fuck up the Muckleshoot Rez if they started shooting rockets at us is wrong. We wouldn't feel conflicted about it either.
4
Now on Ireality TV: Jews Vs. Gaza! Who will be wiped from the Holy Land next? Tune in to find out.
5
meks @3: Anybody saying we wouldn't completely fuck up the Muckleshoot Rez if they started shooting rockets at us is wrong. We wouldn't feel conflicted about it either.
meks, the situation is a lot more complicated than that. To follow your analogy, suppose that the U.S. Army had been staging a prolonged blockade of the reservation.
The question is not whether Israel has a right to attack Hamas. The question is whether it is smart to attack. Israel's survival depends on a two-state solution, and a two-state solution depends on moderate Palestinians winning out over radical, nihilist, annihilationist Palestinians.
I see the continued rocket attacks by Hamas (which, yes, is a proxy for Iran) as a trap. By invading Gaza, Israel has been drawn into that trap. Can the Israelis really dismantle Hamas or will this all just further radicalize the Palestinians in the West Bank as well as Gaza? Hamas wants to make this into an existential struggle to the death.
meks, the situation is a lot more complicated than that. To follow your analogy, suppose that the U.S. Army had been staging a prolonged blockade of the reservation.
The question is not whether Israel has a right to attack Hamas. The question is whether it is smart to attack. Israel's survival depends on a two-state solution, and a two-state solution depends on moderate Palestinians winning out over radical, nihilist, annihilationist Palestinians.
I see the continued rocket attacks by Hamas (which, yes, is a proxy for Iran) as a trap. By invading Gaza, Israel has been drawn into that trap. Can the Israelis really dismantle Hamas or will this all just further radicalize the Palestinians in the West Bank as well as Gaza? Hamas wants to make this into an existential struggle to the death.
8
Meks, that's fucking idiotic. The Israeli reaction is disproportionate. If the Canadians were lobbing rockets from Vancouver to Bellingham, would we nuke Toronto and Montreal?
9
If you are going to link to an Atlantic blogger for purposes of commentary on the Mideast, try Goldberg.
http://jeffreygoldberg.theatlantic.com/
He's served in the Israeli army IN Gaza, has reported from there, has friends on both sides, has contacts with Hamas leaders, has even been kidnapped there...but is not a knee-jerk Zionist despite that experience, and has waaaaaaayyyyy more perspective on the situation than Sullivan, who tends to make mistakes in accepting commentary and info from questionable sources.
http://jeffreygoldberg.theatlantic.com/
He's served in the Israeli army IN Gaza, has reported from there, has friends on both sides, has contacts with Hamas leaders, has even been kidnapped there...but is not a knee-jerk Zionist despite that experience, and has waaaaaaayyyyy more perspective on the situation than Sullivan, who tends to make mistakes in accepting commentary and info from questionable sources.
11
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan…
Confusion, fear, government/media manipulation, a growing hardline right wing before an election...it does seem all too familiar. It doesn't mean we aren't right to criticize, but we as a country made the same bad decisions- look who we elected, and how they acted. A lot of countries make the same bad decisions when faced with that kind of fear. We're just not looking it in the face. Calling all of Israel "vile fuckers" may be satisfying, but I don't think it's helping. And I doubt it'll change the victim mentality that the Israelis have crafted for themselves.
Confusion, fear, government/media manipulation, a growing hardline right wing before an election...it does seem all too familiar. It doesn't mean we aren't right to criticize, but we as a country made the same bad decisions- look who we elected, and how they acted. A lot of countries make the same bad decisions when faced with that kind of fear. We're just not looking it in the face. Calling all of Israel "vile fuckers" may be satisfying, but I don't think it's helping. And I doubt it'll change the victim mentality that the Israelis have crafted for themselves.
12
@8: You mean if the canandian's were throwing M-80s into ferndale, so we had ground force invasion of Vancouver and blockaded them for a couple decades.
Keep it classy Israel!
Keep it classy Israel!
13
Abby, great post @11. It's almost shocking to read someone offer something called "perspective" on a comments thread about Israel and Palestine.
14
@Abby: We may have done some pretty awful things, but the continued (since the 1960's) mess that Israel keeps up and the killing and violence that perpetuates itself, 1 side with billions of dollars in aid and cheap, powerful weapons vs. a people crippled with poverty is complete fucked. If America was bombing Cuba constantly, or blockading aid off and on for 40 years, making it impossible to, Uh, live then maybe it would be similar. Isreal has no one to blame but themselves, and they are especially vile fuckers with this recent bullshit. It's unacceptable.
15
@abby: But I do agree that name calling does continue their victim complex. In the same way that the Christians feel they are the victim, but vile fuckers is the only way I think to express my outrage at their continued occupation and war.
16
@abby: but I agree that name-calling isn't helpful. I just don't know another way right now to express the outrage at this "war" going on.
17
@Monique: but look what Bush was able to do with just the idea that we were going to be attacked. I'm not saying that every American supported his ideas, but enough did for him to pull it off, without anything like what the Israelis see to back it up. And we don't even have the historical narrative that Israelis do- they do see themselves as perpetual victims since the 1960s, heroically prevailing against all the outside forces that want to completely eradicate them. All that Death to Israel and anti-Semitic campaigning throughout the Arab world. The wars against them that the Israelis considered to be aggressive. Suicide bombers appearing in shopping malls and bus stops. It's all self-perpetuating, on both sides. The more hopeless the Palestinians get, the more brazen they are with attacks like suicide bombers and rockets. The more brazen the Palestinians get the more terrified the Israelis become and the easier it is for the ordinary Israeli, who probably does want peace, to see them and all Arabs as an "other" who doesn't deserve it, and the easier it is for hawkish, rightist politicians to manipulate that fear into getting what they want (weapons, power, billions of dollars in aid).
Both sides are being manipulated by bad leadership. I don't think the Israelis are right to do what they're doing. But I don't see why they should be more vilified for doing what just about every other country has done, when faced with the same kind of fear. And I don't think it's helping. The more Israelis are allowed to believe that they're victims- of Palestinians, of Iran, of world opinion that isn't believing what they're believing- the worse they'll get.
Both sides are being manipulated by bad leadership. I don't think the Israelis are right to do what they're doing. But I don't see why they should be more vilified for doing what just about every other country has done, when faced with the same kind of fear. And I don't think it's helping. The more Israelis are allowed to believe that they're victims- of Palestinians, of Iran, of world opinion that isn't believing what they're believing- the worse they'll get.
18
@15: it's very similar. And unfortunately, that mentality is very effective, especially if Israelis can see and hear attacks on their towns. The retaliation is disproportionate- but fear leads people to do irrational, disproportionate things.
19
On the other hand, if half of Seattle were forced into the Muckleshoot reservation today don't you think we'd do whatever it takes to destroy the people who did that to us? And that we'd hold responsible newcomers to the area who knew damn well what they were getting into?
20
Bush is the most pro-Israel president we have ever had. America needs to stand strong with Israel now. The Stranger has gone against conventional Seattle wisdom and been pro-war. Bush is the best American president Israel has ever known, and many in the Seattle Jewish community appreciate what Bush has done for Israel. Obama must demonstrate true leadership by immediately echoing Bush's support for Israel during her time of need.
21
Yeah, Bush has been so good for America it makes me weep. I mean, what's "good" for Isreal is good for us, right?. As we swirl into the toilet with Isreal, keep saying those words. I hope that Isreal and Palistine destroy each other and leave the rest of the world in peace.
22
@ Original Monique,
I understand your anger and revulsion, believe me. However, it's crucial to understand that many--if not most--Israelis oppose the current war and also opposed the last one.
They have a psycho, out-of-control, right-wing foreign policy and military apparatus in place that they don't have direct control over--just like the situation we have right now in the US.
It's a very sad, systemic democratic failure, and it's a lose/lose situation for both of our countries.
I understand your anger and revulsion, believe me. However, it's crucial to understand that many--if not most--Israelis oppose the current war and also opposed the last one.
They have a psycho, out-of-control, right-wing foreign policy and military apparatus in place that they don't have direct control over--just like the situation we have right now in the US.
It's a very sad, systemic democratic failure, and it's a lose/lose situation for both of our countries.
23
I wonder how many countries Israel is going to bomb over the next 8 days.
Cause there's a new sheriff in town after that ...
Cause there's a new sheriff in town after that ...
25
@19: I agree with your IDEA but I honestly think most Seattleites would just suffer silently and snub anyone who suggested they ought to take action to make things better.
26
This is quite possibly the most ill informed argument I've ever heard on Israel/Palestine.
To quote from Billy Madison: what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul. "
To quote from Billy Madison: what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul. "
27
The fact that a couple of harmless rockets that smack into empty fields and buildings is all that Israel has seen so far is pretty perplexing. They've fostered enough hatred among their neighbors that the day the US can't afford to prop them up, they're toast.
Unfortunately, they're toast with nuclear weapons and, given their lack of proportion or temperament, they're going to take everyone else down with them.
I recommend offering refugee status to all Israelis, freeing the Palestinians from their ghettos, and finally giving them their land back. If anyone can argue with that as the best middle east peace plan, I'd love to hear what's wrong with it.
Unfortunately, they're toast with nuclear weapons and, given their lack of proportion or temperament, they're going to take everyone else down with them.
I recommend offering refugee status to all Israelis, freeing the Palestinians from their ghettos, and finally giving them their land back. If anyone can argue with that as the best middle east peace plan, I'd love to hear what's wrong with it.
30
@28...
I would say trying to have a discussion about Palestine/Israel, or more appropriately; the issue of a Jewish State, and not starting the discussion around 1,350 BC and moving forward is "retarded".
Whatever the case... I think it's a very fair statement that there would be very few people available that would have an informed opinion on this subject.
I would say trying to have a discussion about Palestine/Israel, or more appropriately; the issue of a Jewish State, and not starting the discussion around 1,350 BC and moving forward is "retarded".
Whatever the case... I think it's a very fair statement that there would be very few people available that would have an informed opinion on this subject.
32
wow I read Abby's comments without looking at the name and I kept thinking that i must have been posting on this thread already and forgot.
thanks Abby for being perceptive enough to admit that the situation is complicated.
thanks Abby for being perceptive enough to admit that the situation is complicated.
33
White Phosphorus munitions are quite obviously being used, I've seen at least half a dozen photos of them exploding mid-air. They probably aren't bombs but artillery shells.
They look like this:
http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/3755/…
They look like this:
http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/3755/…
34
Don't start a war with Israel. They will kill you. They are pissed off and bitter about the past 2000 odd years of persecution and murder and are no longer willing to take shit off of non-Jews. Especially the non-Jews who want them to die.
35
Israel: Swatting flies with sledgehammers since the 50s.
Re: The Promised Land. As an atheist, I firmly believe that both sides are fucking retarded, and when's the last time a large group of atheists started a war with anyone about anything?
Can we move on from this shit, already?
Re: The Promised Land. As an atheist, I firmly believe that both sides are fucking retarded, and when's the last time a large group of atheists started a war with anyone about anything?
Can we move on from this shit, already?
36
thanks Abby and Cressona for your uncommonly level-headed comments.
@35: I actually don't think belief in God really has much of a role in this conflict. If anything, it's just the opposite. I say more God, less nationalism.
@35: I actually don't think belief in God really has much of a role in this conflict. If anything, it's just the opposite. I say more God, less nationalism.
37
The Palestinians are obsessed with nationalism but can't figure out for the life of them who they want to lead their nation, or how to lead it. The only thing they can agree on is ZOMG KILL JEWS I MEAN ZIONISTS!!!!1!! They (and many of their supporters worldwide) refer to the use of deadly weapons that kill Israelis going about their lives as some variation on "an act of protest by an oppressed people."
The Israelis are obsessed with making sure that every Israeli death is avenged many times over because of what has happened to them historically, to the point that they're willing to obliterate anyone loosely affiliated with the people who wronged them, thus perpetuating their stereotype as a bunch of sadists.
Tell me which is better? Tell me which is worse? Can you tell me logically, without resorting to rhetoric that calls either side "disgusting" or "evil?" Because no one has made a compelling argument on either end to me.
The whole reason that nations build themselves and their defenses up is so that they don't have to suffer equal amounts of casualties in a war, to keep their people safe. Can Israel be faulted for that? Would you fault the Palestinians if they had the same weapons and used them against Israel? Arguments about "fairness" are moot; the US teamed up with the Soviets and British and combined we steamrolled Nazi Germany... was that unfair of us?
By the same token when a nation builds up their strength to such levels, is it necessary for them to act like a banana republic armed with AK47's and blind faith and start going head-on, balls-out war whenever a nation threatens them or makes a aggressive movement? Is it necessary to kill civilians with fairly wanton abandon to get at the source of the problem? To me that's like shooting a kid in the head to show you mean business.
For the life of me I can't tell, and so I won't be so ignorant to refer to either side as any more "disgusting" or "evil" than the other. It is simply a disgusting, evil situation all around.
More...
The Israelis are obsessed with making sure that every Israeli death is avenged many times over because of what has happened to them historically, to the point that they're willing to obliterate anyone loosely affiliated with the people who wronged them, thus perpetuating their stereotype as a bunch of sadists.
Tell me which is better? Tell me which is worse? Can you tell me logically, without resorting to rhetoric that calls either side "disgusting" or "evil?" Because no one has made a compelling argument on either end to me.
The whole reason that nations build themselves and their defenses up is so that they don't have to suffer equal amounts of casualties in a war, to keep their people safe. Can Israel be faulted for that? Would you fault the Palestinians if they had the same weapons and used them against Israel? Arguments about "fairness" are moot; the US teamed up with the Soviets and British and combined we steamrolled Nazi Germany... was that unfair of us?
By the same token when a nation builds up their strength to such levels, is it necessary for them to act like a banana republic armed with AK47's and blind faith and start going head-on, balls-out war whenever a nation threatens them or makes a aggressive movement? Is it necessary to kill civilians with fairly wanton abandon to get at the source of the problem? To me that's like shooting a kid in the head to show you mean business.
For the life of me I can't tell, and so I won't be so ignorant to refer to either side as any more "disgusting" or "evil" than the other. It is simply a disgusting, evil situation all around.
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