Monday, January 12, 2009
Books "No More Superhero Decadence"
Posted by Paul Constant on Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 12:25 PM
Via the very good comic newsblog Robot 6: Bill Willingham, who is a conservative superhero comic book writer probably best known for his Sandman ripoff series Fables, has a post up calling for superheroes to act more heroic. Unsurprisingly, to Willingham, "heroic" means "conservative," and his statement that superheroes have been getting more "decadent" means that they're acting more liberal.
Borrowing some wisdom from the famous parable of the mote in one fellow’s eye, and the whole beam in another’s, it would be the height of hypocrisy for me to make any call for our industry to clean up its act, until I’ve first cleaned up my own. I’ve already made some progress down that road. In my run writing the Robin series (of Batman fame), I made sure both Batman and Robin were portrayed as good, steadfast heroes, with unshakable personal codes and a firm grasp of their mission. I even got to do a story where Robin parachuted into Afghanistan with a group of very patriotic military superheroes on a full-scale, C130 gunship-supported combat mission. And in my short run on the Shadowpact series I kept to the same standard (but with less success as several story details were editorially imposed).But ’some’ progress isn’t enough. It’s time to make public a decision I’ve already made in private. I’m going to shamelessly steal a line from Rush Limbaugh, who said, concerning a different matter, “Go ahead and have your recession if you insist, but you’ll have to pardon me if I choose not to participate.” And from now on that’s my position on superhero comics. Go ahead and have your Age of Superhero Decadence, if you insist, but you’ll have to pardon me if I no longer choose to participate.
I'm not sure that sending Robin to Afghanistan is such a good idea. (UPDATE: As übernerd Jonah Spangenthal-Lee points out, the last time Robin went abroad, he got killed.) On a side note, that Rush Limbaugh quote is a real keeper. I hope he gets that tattooed on his forehead.
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5
So WTF is wrong with flawed heroics a la Willingham's old series, ELEMENTALS? He's acting as if comic writers have totally abandoned the concept of heroes as heroes, which is a conservative straw man argument.
Comic writers stopped doing perfect because perfect is boring. It's more meaningful to watch heroes choose to be heroic in spite of their deficiencies; the inner struggle mirrors the outer battle.
Comic writers stopped doing perfect because perfect is boring. It's more meaningful to watch heroes choose to be heroic in spite of their deficiencies; the inner struggle mirrors the outer battle.
6
Wasn't one of W.'s few attempts at governing a convocation of conservative sci fi writers? Since which, I keep noticing the bastards. Michael A. Stackpole, that guy who's continuing the Dune series with Herbert's son, any Batman movie...
7
@6 Dark Knight is a liberal movie! When Batman tortures the Joker, he gets bad intelligence! Cops betray other cops because their family members lack health care to pay hospital bills! A large scary black killer not only refuses to hit the button that would save his ship and blow up the one full of "innocent" people, he throws it overboard! Conservatives think DK was conservative because they are morons.
8
@2: I tend to agree with you, but sadly it's a problem with a lot of liberals too.
The responses to the initial Big Hollywood post just get gross. Within 10-15 responses they're attacking immigrants, gays, and Obama. It makes Slog look civil.
The responses to the initial Big Hollywood post just get gross. Within 10-15 responses they're attacking immigrants, gays, and Obama. It makes Slog look civil.
9
It's funny because Willingham is universally HATED by Robin fans. I categorically refuse to read anything he's written because he messed up my favorite title so badly. Seriously, War Games and everything that lead up to it was just awful.
The only good thing he ever gave the comic book community was Bernard Dowd.
The only good thing he ever gave the comic book community was Bernard Dowd.
10
The fact that Willingham has a strongly different viewpoint from my own doesn't negate the greatness of Fables. I may not agree with every choice he makes while telling the story, it's still a damn fine story.
His superhero stuff, eh, I dunno about that. Sounds bland to me...
His superhero stuff, eh, I dunno about that. Sounds bland to me...
11
Well since Rush Limbaugh just got $32 million for his new contract, it's a fact that he won't be participating in "our recession." It's probs the first true thing that's ever come out of his mouth.
13
Is this the same Bill Willingham who had sunk to doing "erotic" versions of his Elementals comics only a few years back? Has he had some kind of born again conversion?
I like that he completely misinterprets Mark Millar's interpretation of Captain America, accepting Cap's retarded jingoism in that one panel unironically as a great moment in the hero's history. Unless the entire post by Willingham was meant to be tongue-in-cheek and he was just trolling?
I like that he completely misinterprets Mark Millar's interpretation of Captain America, accepting Cap's retarded jingoism in that one panel unironically as a great moment in the hero's history. Unless the entire post by Willingham was meant to be tongue-in-cheek and he was just trolling?
14
Fables is great comic writing - I love it, I buy the TPBs. The spin-off book "Jack of Fables" is not - it's totally his Mary-Sue.
Willingham's superhero work is BORING. He takes characters that have been fleshed out over many years by creators and he hacks them down to what your average Joe thinks of when he hears "superhero." He is worse than Bendis.
Willingham's superhero work is BORING. He takes characters that have been fleshed out over many years by creators and he hacks them down to what your average Joe thinks of when he hears "superhero." He is worse than Bendis.
15
@7: Didn't see it. My last Batman movie was "Batman Begins," and I found myself swearing uncontrollably at the tv.
16
It's never occurred to me that anyone who writes stories about grown men running around in their underwear, could be conservative.
17
@13: Willingham wrote and drew the erotic fantasy comic IRONWOOD for Eros comics back in the 90s. The ratio of plot/sex varied over time but it was quite explicit and had plenty of lesbian and inter-species fucking (which is fine for most straight fellows, even the Republicans). I think one of the bad guys was a corrupt priest of some kind too. I don't know if Willingham has gotten more conservative over the years or if he was always a right-winger.
18
Agreeing with #3 here. Have you actually ever read Fables? Or Sandman? While I totally agree that his superhero work is lackluster, Fables is an excellent story, and it just seems petty to put it down simply because you disagree with his politics.
19
I thought print media was dying...doesn't that include comic books? Hmm, I think very soon he's going to be participating in the recession he doesn't believe in.
20
@18: Tried it when it started. Got bored around the third arc. Stopped reading it. That was all way before I knew Willingham's political leanings.
21
@19, Marvel already went into Chapter 11 years ago but after reorganizing, came back as a loss leader to maintain its IP licenses long enough to have them picked up and sold as movie properties, toys and cartoons. DC is a division of Time Warner that is also maintained mostly to keep licenses in perpetual ownership, though T/W may actually be aware of its existence now that "Dark Knight" was such a box office success.
23
He might be a conservative but he isn't arguing for a return to conservatism in comics, he is just finding ways for conservatives to benefit off of a higher standard comic.
He isn't wrong here. Take the X-men, heroes fighting for a world that doesn't want them. There are YEARS of comics establishing the reasons they fight and why they value life and such. Cut to now, Cyclops the leader of the x-men is willing to send his friends and in some cases wards, out to murder whole organizations of people.
That isn't cool. Murder isn't cool, but NOW its normal in comics. people want to see who the hulk will rip apart next, people want wolverine to gore EVERYONE, and you know what? THEY AREN'T WRONG EITHER.
What Bill might be referring to is a better definition between heroes, Wolverine is an assassin with unbreakable claws, Yes I want him to stab people, he would be silly if he didn't (and is silly in the kids cartoon Wolverine And The X-Men) But the other heroes that decided to put on a costume and use their powers for good, I want to see them DO GOOD.
That doesn't mean that every hero needs to stand triumphantly atop an unconscious villain waiting for the police to take him to jail, It means writers are going to have to figure out a intelligent answer to just how a hero that has decided to pass judgment on people and uphold this "good" moral code will answer.
IE: Wolverine gets to stab people, Spiderman gets to be heroic.
I don't think that Bill would be against say a comic about a person with super powers that decides to use their powers selfishly or for crime. As long as it isn't just a comic designed to wow you with violence and sex as content. We can do better and we are not (in our superhero comic subset, in the indy stuff, things like this are old hat!) Superhero comics just need to be better in every way.
More...
He isn't wrong here. Take the X-men, heroes fighting for a world that doesn't want them. There are YEARS of comics establishing the reasons they fight and why they value life and such. Cut to now, Cyclops the leader of the x-men is willing to send his friends and in some cases wards, out to murder whole organizations of people.
That isn't cool. Murder isn't cool, but NOW its normal in comics. people want to see who the hulk will rip apart next, people want wolverine to gore EVERYONE, and you know what? THEY AREN'T WRONG EITHER.
What Bill might be referring to is a better definition between heroes, Wolverine is an assassin with unbreakable claws, Yes I want him to stab people, he would be silly if he didn't (and is silly in the kids cartoon Wolverine And The X-Men) But the other heroes that decided to put on a costume and use their powers for good, I want to see them DO GOOD.
That doesn't mean that every hero needs to stand triumphantly atop an unconscious villain waiting for the police to take him to jail, It means writers are going to have to figure out a intelligent answer to just how a hero that has decided to pass judgment on people and uphold this "good" moral code will answer.
IE: Wolverine gets to stab people, Spiderman gets to be heroic.
I don't think that Bill would be against say a comic about a person with super powers that decides to use their powers selfishly or for crime. As long as it isn't just a comic designed to wow you with violence and sex as content. We can do better and we are not (in our superhero comic subset, in the indy stuff, things like this are old hat!) Superhero comics just need to be better in every way.
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