Thursday, January 8, 2009
2008 The NGLTF-Funded Study That Found Black Support for Prop 8 to Be Overstated By CNN's Exit Polls?
Posted by Dan Savage on Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 3:11 PM
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2
ZOMFG! Still?
The sad thing is even after all this time to reflect, analyze, discuss, etc; this guy still misses the point.
Let.
It.
Go.
The sad thing is even after all this time to reflect, analyze, discuss, etc; this guy still misses the point.
Let.
It.
Go.
3
Please what is the f-ing point of all these blogs? Is bitching back and forth going to give gays the right to marry like they should have? Dan, the blog linked to in this story and many other writers both black and gay, are in a huge pissing match to prove each other wrong. It's easy to measure your penis is than actually trying to stop the bleeding in your brain.
I am a black woman. I agree that blacks are very homophobic. But unless you give me facts that aren't just based on polls taken in one state during one election I don't believe we somehow are disproportional compared to other races. And on the rare chance you could find me those stats that said that blacks are the most homophobic people on the planet, then what? How does that get gays the right to vote? Are we going to have a black vs gay war? And if gays win they win the right to marry?
I am a black woman. I agree that blacks are very homophobic. But unless you give me facts that aren't just based on polls taken in one state during one election I don't believe we somehow are disproportional compared to other races. And on the rare chance you could find me those stats that said that blacks are the most homophobic people on the planet, then what? How does that get gays the right to vote? Are we going to have a black vs gay war? And if gays win they win the right to marry?
4
Please what is the f-ing point of all these blogs? Is bitching back and forth going to give gays the right to marry like they should have? Dan, the blog linked to in this story and many other writers both black and gay, are in a huge pissing match to prove each other wrong. It's easy to measure your penis is than actually trying to stop the bleeding in your brain.
I am a black woman. I agree that blacks are very homophobic. But unless you give me facts that aren't just based on polls taken in one state during one election I don't believe we somehow are disproportional compared to other races. And on the rare chance you could find me those stats that said that blacks are the most homophobic people on the planet, then what? How does that get gays the right to vote? Are we going to have a black vs gay war? And if gays win they win the right to marry?
I am a black woman. I agree that blacks are very homophobic. But unless you give me facts that aren't just based on polls taken in one state during one election I don't believe we somehow are disproportional compared to other races. And on the rare chance you could find me those stats that said that blacks are the most homophobic people on the planet, then what? How does that get gays the right to vote? Are we going to have a black vs gay war? And if gays win they win the right to marry?
5
Very detailed and interesting article. Unfortunately, it is lost with people on here since they are angry just because you link to it. I thought it was just religion but it seems to be more than that.
6
I think that arguing over who's statistics are right is a monumental waste of time.
However, if you wade through about 3/4 of his article, he does make a very valid point (finally). Ignoring the issue won't make it go away. (I would say that arguing over statistics won't make it go away either.)
Whether blacks voted for Prop 8 by 58%, or 70% or wheteverthefuck percent, if the gay community wants more support from the black community in the future, then we have to work at it. We have to do more community building, more education, more outreach. Not more bitching. Not more ignoring.
However, if you wade through about 3/4 of his article, he does make a very valid point (finally). Ignoring the issue won't make it go away. (I would say that arguing over statistics won't make it go away either.)
Whether blacks voted for Prop 8 by 58%, or 70% or wheteverthefuck percent, if the gay community wants more support from the black community in the future, then we have to work at it. We have to do more community building, more education, more outreach. Not more bitching. Not more ignoring.
7
I think that everyone keeps missing the point by trying to racialize the results. Yes, it is true that African-Americans voted disproportionately for Prop 8, but the real issue is not that they were black or religious but that they don't understand homosexuality. Later reports showed that people who had lower amounts of education were most likely to vote for Prop 8 regardless of their ethnicity or their religion. So yes, African-Americans let the gay community down like SO MANY OTHER groups that we don't hear about, and yes the gay community has some work to do, but people really need to understand what the issue is before they go on about these things. I heard so much about how wrong African-Americans were for voting for Prop 8 but little about the correlation between education and anti-gay sentiment. Please, please, stop racializing everything.
8
It strikes me as kind of weird, it's starting to seem that some people are freaking more about the fact that black people voted however they voted than they are freaked out about the fact prop 8 passed. Like maybe they had this fantasy that somehow the black folks were more on 'our side' than they turned out to be, and this loss of imagined solidarity is keeping them from sleeping at night or whatever. What I think I'm saying is that these gays believe they 'get' that racism is discrimination and then they just expected that therefore black people wpould 'get' that homophobia is discrimination. And when the prop 8 vote showed that black people didn't get that homophobia was discrimination - whether by 58% or 70% or whatever - then they feel like someone who they thought was their ally just betrayed them . . . even if the expectation that blacks were an ally who 'gets' gay opporession may have been only in their head. Hence they are obsessing on how the black vote went down when in reality if any demographic group had voted just a little differently then prop 8 may not have passed. To add another thought here, it wouldn't surprise me if this imaginary expectation of black people being more of an ally than was reasonable to assume is actually somehow part of these gays unconscious racism. Maybe something along the lines of these gays do at some level get the logic that racism is discrimination and so then prokected their logic onto black people and therefore assumed that black people would get the logic of homophobia as discrimination - but they don,t really know the black community well enough to have understood that the blacks are different than the (white) gays and don't think the same way necessarily. And that's the racism, that the (white) gays could just - in their ignorance of the black experience - assume that they would think about things the same way they (the white gays) do. And then be upset and feel betrayed when the black community didn't behave the way they thought it should.
More...
9
@ 7 . . . I agree. And the next steps to take are the same regardless of whatever the specifics of the vote was. Outreach and education is the key. That's what's going to get across the finish line (so to speak). Who's up for putting together and outreach and education action plan?
10
I"m so sick of the STFU-type comments.
We NEED to discuss homophobia, as well as racism.
I am so tired of hearing the gay blogosphere bend over backwards to try to explain away black homophobia. It's a real problem that isn't going to disappear by crunching numbers, nor liberal self-flagellation.
We NEED to discuss homophobia, as well as racism.
I am so tired of hearing the gay blogosphere bend over backwards to try to explain away black homophobia. It's a real problem that isn't going to disappear by crunching numbers, nor liberal self-flagellation.
11
7
I see your point.
The problem for gays is not that African-American voters are Black.
They are.
(not that there's anything wrong with that...)
The problem for gays is that African-American voters are SO FUCKING STUPID.
If we could help them get a clue they would love us as much as the rest of America.
I see your point.
The problem for gays is not that African-American voters are Black.
They are.
(not that there's anything wrong with that...)
The problem for gays is that African-American voters are SO FUCKING STUPID.
If we could help them get a clue they would love us as much as the rest of America.
13
@7 & @9, yes.
Dan, I hope this isn't the response to Ta-Nehisi you promised yesterday--I was really looking forward to reading that. Don't fall into the easy reductionist trap--this whole conversation about blacks and Prop 8 is an exhausting red herring and it stinks.
Your column has been such a positive influence in my life and the lives of countless others--here's a chance to talk to an audience who, if your words resonate with them--may start reading your column, realize the value in it, and become--as many of your readers doubtless have--evangelists of tolerance and sex positivity among their friends and family. Choose your words so that they reflect reality, and they will resonate.
I have so much respect for you Dan, don't let me down.
Dan, I hope this isn't the response to Ta-Nehisi you promised yesterday--I was really looking forward to reading that. Don't fall into the easy reductionist trap--this whole conversation about blacks and Prop 8 is an exhausting red herring and it stinks.
Your column has been such a positive influence in my life and the lives of countless others--here's a chance to talk to an audience who, if your words resonate with them--may start reading your column, realize the value in it, and become--as many of your readers doubtless have--evangelists of tolerance and sex positivity among their friends and family. Choose your words so that they reflect reality, and they will resonate.
I have so much respect for you Dan, don't let me down.
14
Outreach and education MY ASS!!! I'm sick and freaking tired of all this BS about talking nice to everyone and explaining what it means to be gay and educating people 1-on-1 by telling our stories and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Is that what our civil rights come down to? If we tell our stories to enough people then we'll earn the equality we deserve? If we reach out to the right groups we can maybe get more people to vote for our rights? Fuck that. And especially fuck ignorant, fundie Christianist, idiotic American conservatives who have no basic understanding of the Constitution because it's not referred to in their magical Bible. It's time to take action and it's time to let the rest of America know that we're mad as hell and we're not gonna take it anymore!
Is that what our civil rights come down to? If we tell our stories to enough people then we'll earn the equality we deserve? If we reach out to the right groups we can maybe get more people to vote for our rights? Fuck that. And especially fuck ignorant, fundie Christianist, idiotic American conservatives who have no basic understanding of the Constitution because it's not referred to in their magical Bible. It's time to take action and it's time to let the rest of America know that we're mad as hell and we're not gonna take it anymore!
16
The "if we want more Black support we have to work for it" notion is true to an extent - ie, in general it is hard to change things and you have to work for it.
But where that notion fails, and where many people who say it seem to be going with it is: "gays are to blame for homophobia among Blacks." And they are not. Nor do they have to do anything in particular, talk to anyone in particular, prove anything in particular, or meet any particular set of demands, in order to deserve equal rights. Those who vote for Prop 8 are wrong, even if someone made them feel left out.
But where that notion fails, and where many people who say it seem to be going with it is: "gays are to blame for homophobia among Blacks." And they are not. Nor do they have to do anything in particular, talk to anyone in particular, prove anything in particular, or meet any particular set of demands, in order to deserve equal rights. Those who vote for Prop 8 are wrong, even if someone made them feel left out.
17
Wait, Savage, THIS was the response you promised? Please! You link to a blog post of a guy who isn't even a statistician. I know you don't know multivariate calculus, but at least acknowledge that the Ph.D.s and others commenting on that blog (including one of the analysts whose response was posted later) have offered serious criticisms of Timothy Kincaid's shallow critique. And really, you had nothing more to say about this?
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