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News & ArtsThursday, January 8, 2009
2008 Prop 8, Race, Exit Polls, and Lingering Anger
Posted by Dan Savage on Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 9:29 AM
I'm working on a column and don't have time to respond now, but this post by the Atlantic's Ta-Nehisi Coates—and the comments thread—is required reading. I'll have something up tomorrow.
1
I've not read the comments yet (also, no time), but I wonder who it was who was "scapegoating" blacks for Prop 8's passage. Not me. Not Dan Savage.
I wonder who claimed that blacks "sunk" gay marriage. Not me. Not Dan Savage. Not anyone here at Slog that I could tell.
I've never heard of Ta-Nehisi Coates, but this:
makes me doubt that he's worth getting to know.
I wonder who claimed that blacks "sunk" gay marriage. Not me. Not Dan Savage. Not anyone here at Slog that I could tell.
I've never heard of Ta-Nehisi Coates, but this:
I have no use for people--gay, straight, white, red, rich, poor--who feel like black people "owe them." I have no use for people who like to trot out their history of supporting "black causes." I have no use for people who want to compare gay racism with black homophobia.
makes me doubt that he's worth getting to know.
3
So, does one always think that people should vote your way on an issue when you can't be bothered doing extensive outreach and education on the issue to them, but take them for granted?
....
Interesting.
How's that working for you?
....
Interesting.
How's that working for you?
5
"Lingering Anger?"
Is that really the right phrase?
I believe that the supporters of Prop 8 are pressing forward in their assault on gays. Are they not now attempting to annul the 18,000 gay marriages that California DID condone?
Here's the article:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/12/20…
It's not "lingering" if it's the result of an ongoing situation. You wouldn't describe the ache in your face as "lingering" while the person was still punching you.
Is that really the right phrase?
I believe that the supporters of Prop 8 are pressing forward in their assault on gays. Are they not now attempting to annul the 18,000 gay marriages that California DID condone?
Here's the article:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/12/20…
It's not "lingering" if it's the result of an ongoing situation. You wouldn't describe the ache in your face as "lingering" while the person was still punching you.
6
Mr. Poe commented over there! Hoorah! Of course, the entirety of his comment was "Trig Palin is retarded." Still nice to see him out and about. If indeed that was him.
7
@jade said "I wonder who claimed that blacks "sunk" gay marriage. Not me. Not Dan Savage. Not anyone here at Slog that I could tell."
Actually, Dan Savage has said just exactly that: ehttp://slog.thestranger.com/2008/11/black_homophobia
"African American voters in California voted overwhelmingly for Prop 8, writing anti-gay discrimination into California’s constitution and banning same-sex marriage in that state. Seventy percent of African American voters approved Prop 8, according to exit polls, compared to 53% of Latino voters, 49% of white voters, 49% of Asian voters."
I understand that there has been more said on the subject by Dan since then, and I certainly don't want to condemn a man who had every reason in the world to be pissed off, but the fact is that he did say that.
Actually, Dan Savage has said just exactly that: ehttp://slog.thestranger.com/2008/11/black_homophobia
"African American voters in California voted overwhelmingly for Prop 8, writing anti-gay discrimination into California’s constitution and banning same-sex marriage in that state. Seventy percent of African American voters approved Prop 8, according to exit polls, compared to 53% of Latino voters, 49% of white voters, 49% of Asian voters."
I understand that there has been more said on the subject by Dan since then, and I certainly don't want to condemn a man who had every reason in the world to be pissed off, but the fact is that he did say that.
8
Dan,
I've read Coates in the Atlantic before (He had an interesting piece on Bill Cosby, oh about two years ago). I just read his post. Hmmm? I am dubious. This is politically incorrect but I believe homophobia is more pronounced in the African-American and African immigrant communities (excepting South Africa) here in the US. I read in the NY Times recently about a Senegalese immigrant gay male harassed and threaten by other African immigrants in NYC (!). So, I am more inclined to believe the higher 70% figure. Seems like Coates is blowing off some steam.
I've read Coates in the Atlantic before (He had an interesting piece on Bill Cosby, oh about two years ago). I just read his post. Hmmm? I am dubious. This is politically incorrect but I believe homophobia is more pronounced in the African-American and African immigrant communities (excepting South Africa) here in the US. I read in the NY Times recently about a Senegalese immigrant gay male harassed and threaten by other African immigrants in NYC (!). So, I am more inclined to believe the higher 70% figure. Seems like Coates is blowing off some steam.
9
#3. I think that people should vote in a human rights way, outreach or not. And so far it's working like shit for me.
#7. I read Dan's statement as: everyone who voted for Prop 8 voted to ban marriage equality. Every person who voted yes is responsible for it passing. He didn't write that the African American race is responsible for Prop 8's success. But he did point out the 70% in California who voted yes, and held them responsible along with everyone else.
And then he pointed out the irony of it. And that's what got everyone angry.
#7. I read Dan's statement as: everyone who voted for Prop 8 voted to ban marriage equality. Every person who voted yes is responsible for it passing. He didn't write that the African American race is responsible for Prop 8's success. But he did point out the 70% in California who voted yes, and held them responsible along with everyone else.
And then he pointed out the irony of it. And that's what got everyone angry.
10
@4 for the win.
Look at it as a spectrum. Each time Cali votes on gay marriage the pro-gay-marriage numbers keep improving.
Want to know who your real enemy is? Old people.
Maybe do like the jewish community did for Obama and have gay grandkids try to convice grandma and grandpa to not vote on the wrong side of the issue next time?
Look at it as a spectrum. Each time Cali votes on gay marriage the pro-gay-marriage numbers keep improving.
Want to know who your real enemy is? Old people.
Maybe do like the jewish community did for Obama and have gay grandkids try to convice grandma and grandpa to not vote on the wrong side of the issue next time?
11
@1 see Andrew Sullivan's blog.
Dan was initially--understandably--very pissed, and his posts were I think a little irrational for this reason. he has since made it clear that he doesn't support a racist-reductionist reading of Prop 8's passage, and rather has taken his beef where it belongs--to the churchy phobes.
Ta-Nehisi's blog is fantastic if you share some of his interests. he ignites really great conversations and participates in the comments--good stuff.
Dan was initially--understandably--very pissed, and his posts were I think a little irrational for this reason. he has since made it clear that he doesn't support a racist-reductionist reading of Prop 8's passage, and rather has taken his beef where it belongs--to the churchy phobes.
Ta-Nehisi's blog is fantastic if you share some of his interests. he ignites really great conversations and participates in the comments--good stuff.
12
#9. I see what you're saying, but I think that the same way that I may be reading more intent into what Dan said, you may be reading less. First of all, his 70% number was incorrect and does not take into consideration the fact that overall, Blacks make a much smaller % of total voters than Whites. And he did say "African American...voted overwhelmingly..compared to 53% of...etc." It seems that he was specifically calling out Black voters and comparing it to high, but 20% smaller percentages of other groups.
I think I do know what he was trying to say, but I don't think he said it well. But I also feel that it is a bit disingenuous to think he wasn't pissed (and lashing out a bit) at a demographic who only recently received a bunch of civil rights voting to deny similar rights to others. I was pissed too, but I (fortunately) didn't have a national platform to talk about it on before all the facts were in.
I think I do know what he was trying to say, but I don't think he said it well. But I also feel that it is a bit disingenuous to think he wasn't pissed (and lashing out a bit) at a demographic who only recently received a bunch of civil rights voting to deny similar rights to others. I was pissed too, but I (fortunately) didn't have a national platform to talk about it on before all the facts were in.
13
Oh I know he was pissed, Tim. That was clear. I was too. Thank goodness I'm a nobody because I'd have been even more blunt.
And now . . . I'm gonna stop speaking for the man.
And now . . . I'm gonna stop speaking for the man.
15
Look, let me be clear-
I do not blame the 7% of California voters who are black for Prop 8-
I blame the 1% who are Mormons.
I do not blame the 7% of California voters who are black for Prop 8-
I blame the 1% who are Mormons.
16
Lark, you are a fucking moron. Let me get this straight, you see two numbers, one that supports your ignorance and racism and one that doesn't, so you say you're "more inclined" to believe the first one. LOL Okay, love, if that's what it takes to justify your bigotry, why not just round it up to 100%? Also, 100% of black people are gay-bashers and vice-versa. If we're playing with the math to justify our bigotry, why not go all the way?
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