Wednesday, January 7, 2009
News Who Wrote the Ricin Letters?
Posted by Dan Savage on Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 10:39 AM
I'll catch hell for this, no doubt... but from the moment I read one of the ricin letters I've been convinced that they was sent by a gay person. A white male, per Charles, but most likely a gay one.
First, look at what's not in the letter: no references to a higher power, nothing about divine judgment, no railing against sin, no "God Hates Fags," no choice quotes from Leviticus, Romans, Corinthians, etc.
The letters strike me as having been written by a very bitter man—by someone who came out, expected that gay life would a glorious cycle of song, and was shocked to discover that gay life—just like straight life—comes with no guarantees. In the years after coming out he learned that some people, gay and straight, can be assholes; that gay men were not, despite the hype, his "brothers." I wouldn't be surprised if this person had a meth problem and a string of failed relationships. He's someone who has probably, through the choices he's made, succeeded in making a complete hash of his life. But he doesn't want to take responsibility for his choices so he blames gay people in general, and gay life, and the bars, and pins his personal failures on the "community." (He's a blood brother to those guys who come out, spend ten methed-out years on their backs in bathhouses, and then decide that gay life is depressing and squalid and sinful before they "come out" as ex-gays.)
That would explain, I think, the letters' author targeting the bar crowd—he's mad at the folks who he believes are out there having a good time, drinking up, hooking up. Guys who are making a success at what he's failed at. It was probably at the bars where he met the guys who broke his heart, the guys who fucked him over, the guys introduced him to meth, etc. The letter was also written by someone who, if the threat is genuine (which I don't believe it is), can presumably move undetected through all 11 bars mentioned, someone who wouldn't look out of place at the Cuff, Purr, the Eagle, etc.
And the delight he takes in imagining the pain of his victims reminds me of the way cops describe the difference between someone murdering a stranger and someone murdering a lover: the degree of viciousness when the victim is a lover or an ex is usually much, much greater. Murder isn't the point; punishment for perceived wrongs and injustices is.
But maybe I'm biased: I get the odd death threat on top of a steady stream of angry emails. The most vicious hate mail I get—by a long shot, perhaps due to the narcissism of small differences, blah blah blah—is from other gay men. I get letters from Christian haters telling me they're going to pray for me; I get letters from gay haters—my, er, brothers—telling me that my boyfriend is a whore, that someone ought to rape my son and infect him with HIV, and that I should be killed. (This post will surely draw a few letters from my biggest gay fans.)
Kinks in my theory: the Wild Rose got the letter too, and gay men—bitter or otherwise—don't spend a lot of time at the Rose. So maybe the author of the letter is just a generic hater, not a gay hater; perhaps he's a not-particularly-religious resident of Capitol Hill who just hates homos. Or maybe he put the Rose on his list because he didn't want to be accused of being sexist.
UPDATE: Here's some pretty solid evidence that the author of the ricin letters is gay.
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3
That was my first thought, too. The letter sounds like it was written by someone who was rejected by people at those bars and holds the entire gay community responsible for his own misery.
5
@Non
Yeah, I was thinking a really unattractive gay guy. Bitter at seeing others get laid while he's only got his right hand.
Yeah, I was thinking a really unattractive gay guy. Bitter at seeing others get laid while he's only got his right hand.
8
That thought crossed my mind too. Living here in Baltimore, I was unaware of the significance of Wild Rose being on the list.
The passages from the letter The Stranger received made me think it was an angry straight guy though. "I could take this moment to launch into a diatribe about my indignation towards the gay community..." Indignation. I think this is Angry Straight Guy. Something happened to him and he blames us all for it. Or the bars, which he assumes constitutes the gay community.
They don't all wave the bible at us. In fact, that bible waving is largely an excuse anyway...something to justify the venom that was already there in their hearts to start with.
The passages from the letter The Stranger received made me think it was an angry straight guy though. "I could take this moment to launch into a diatribe about my indignation towards the gay community..." Indignation. I think this is Angry Straight Guy. Something happened to him and he blames us all for it. Or the bars, which he assumes constitutes the gay community.
They don't all wave the bible at us. In fact, that bible waving is largely an excuse anyway...something to justify the venom that was already there in their hearts to start with.
9
It could be the guy is just a generic asshat with no outstanding qualities who cannot accept how inconsequential they really are.
10
Maybe it's the management at Chop Suey? If anyone needs a new batch of drinkers, it's those guys.
11
I note that the letter uses the phrase "in hospital" -- leading me to believe the writer is British, or schooled in Britain, or possibly Canada. In the US, we generally say "in the hospital" -- whereas in the UK they say "in hospital"
So - it is an unattractive brit with no chin and bad teeth. probably also fat and pale, with a foreskin he doesn't keep clean...
So - it is an unattractive brit with no chin and bad teeth. probably also fat and pale, with a foreskin he doesn't keep clean...
13
You may very well be right, Dan.
I too was struck by the glaringly obvious absence of religious bile and bible passages. Surely if he was doing god's work, or Fred Phelps' work, the manifesto would be filled with religious references from beginning to end.
As to the language: totally a white guy. My guess is a pretentious failed literary major.
I too was struck by the glaringly obvious absence of religious bile and bible passages. Surely if he was doing god's work, or Fred Phelps' work, the manifesto would be filled with religious references from beginning to end.
As to the language: totally a white guy. My guess is a pretentious failed literary major.
14
I also thought as soon as I read the letter that the writer was British - or spoke with Britishisms - and then I almost as quickly had the ugly thought that it was probably a bitter gay guy, but was hesitant to let myself think of it as a possibility.
15
Dan Savage--- please have a word with Charles, would ya, on how to make blog entries like this one?
Agree with you or not, we at least know how you came to your opinion.
And you're right about the whole missing religiosity component---makes it more likely a queer....
Agree with you or not, we at least know how you came to your opinion.
And you're right about the whole missing religiosity component---makes it more likely a queer....
16
Nah, probably not fat since the bears have so much fun, as evidenced in the fact that they make portmanteaus out of "bear" and every conceivable word (grrfriend, beareoke, husbear, etc.).
Probably some haggard post-twink coming down off a decade-long meth binge.
If, of course, the person is gay anyway. It's always good to cover your bases, just like anytime there's a meth bust in OK, my folks out there always start going "don't let them be native, don't let them be native..."
Probably some haggard post-twink coming down off a decade-long meth binge.
If, of course, the person is gay anyway. It's always good to cover your bases, just like anytime there's a meth bust in OK, my folks out there always start going "don't let them be native, don't let them be native..."
18
I knew it was a 'mo immediately. Not for the same reasons you've listed, but to paint a stronger picture of how unaccepted we still are. To make it seem like we're as oppressed as we make ourselves out to be.
19
jesus, people...lay off the fat guys... there's a lot of happy ones who even have a good time in the bars.
What's to say this wasn't written by an angry lesbian or straight woman? It has happened. Approximately one out of every six serial killers is a woman. Just sayin...
What's to say this wasn't written by an angry lesbian or straight woman? It has happened. Approximately one out of every six serial killers is a woman. Just sayin...
21
AJ: Just because you're a bear who looks like he has downs syndrome but still somehow manages to have fun --was it roping in a much older guy?-- does not mean that all fatties are having fun.
You forget that a majority of fatties don't actually want other fatties.
They GET other fatties, because that's who they can get, but the porn on their computer is not fat on fat. I PROMISE you.
You forget that a majority of fatties don't actually want other fatties.
They GET other fatties, because that's who they can get, but the porn on their computer is not fat on fat. I PROMISE you.
23
What actually disturbs me is that someone went through the effort to go collect all the addresses.
Are they all in the GSBA directory?
Are they all in the GSBA directory?
25
All I know is that the guy who wrote the letter is not a Graphic Artist. Check out the ugly rag and the orphans! Uf!
26
Gee and we wonder why someone in the gay community could be bitter towards all of us? Here is the comments section saying this person must be fat and ugly, have unwashed foreskin, etc etc. Let's face it...we aren't exactly known for brotherly love towards our fellow gay in this town. We are a bunch of catty bitches.
Its like columbine, everyone was horrified at what the kids did, and not too many mentioned what happened to those kids that made them do something so awful.
Its like columbine, everyone was horrified at what the kids did, and not too many mentioned what happened to those kids that made them do something so awful.
27
@Non
Jeez, by your comments, I would suspect you would have no problem if the author of the letter had targeted only fat gays.
Explain to me why your dumping on fat people for something you perceive they should be able to control is any different from the stereotypical Christian right winger telling you to burn in hell for "choosing" to be gay. Hate is hate.
Jeez, by your comments, I would suspect you would have no problem if the author of the letter had targeted only fat gays.
Explain to me why your dumping on fat people for something you perceive they should be able to control is any different from the stereotypical Christian right winger telling you to burn in hell for "choosing" to be gay. Hate is hate.
28
Non: there are actually well-adjusted skinny and average-build guys who like fat guys (and I'm not talkin sugar daddy types), so go away with your fat-hatin'.
Did you send out a bunch of letters recently?
Did you send out a bunch of letters recently?
29
@21: J'accuse!!
For the record, having seen the computers of many a fatty yum-yum, I can tell you that a lot of their HD is taken up by videos of like-on-like. Also, it's not teh Downs, it's a terminal case of awesome!
For the record, having seen the computers of many a fatty yum-yum, I can tell you that a lot of their HD is taken up by videos of like-on-like. Also, it's not teh Downs, it's a terminal case of awesome!
30
As a Brit, you might know more about Britisms, as I get them pointed out to me all the time. My suggestion would be that he says 'while in hospital', not 'whilst in hospital'. The missus likes pointing out the many times I use 'whilst', and apprently my friends that have visited do the same thing.
The second paragraph is quite disjointed, almost as if the writer (I don't want to assume any gender yet) gets carried away and almost starts ranting. For this reason I don't think I'd rely too much on analyzing the language of the letter, it reads like it was heavily proof read by someone with less than stellar English writing skills.
That's right cunto, I dissed your writing skills. Best add Teddy's onto your list.
The second paragraph is quite disjointed, almost as if the writer (I don't want to assume any gender yet) gets carried away and almost starts ranting. For this reason I don't think I'd rely too much on analyzing the language of the letter, it reads like it was heavily proof read by someone with less than stellar English writing skills.
That's right cunto, I dissed your writing skills. Best add Teddy's onto your list.
31
Well the diction and compound sentence structures give it away almost immediately.
The usual hater/master pastor/Palintard letter would read something along the lines of "yur deathstyle iz hurtz Baby Jeebus. U blow up now!"
The usual hater/master pastor/Palintard letter would read something along the lines of "yur deathstyle iz hurtz Baby Jeebus. U blow up now!"
32
@22- yeah, that struck a sour note when I read it too, but I just attributed it up to Dan being in a Post-Holiday haze, and not really back on his Slog 'A-game'.
34
Non, you're a dipshit. CC's is a bear bar, so he's also targeting fat guys and not just the narcissistic trash like you.
Yes, some of us like huskier guys, and if some fat guys are fucking twinks, then it obviously stands to reason there are twinks who are attracted to fat guys too.
But what NO ONE wants, are bitter, shriveled queens... a classification in which you no doubt belong.
Yes, some of us like huskier guys, and if some fat guys are fucking twinks, then it obviously stands to reason there are twinks who are attracted to fat guys too.
But what NO ONE wants, are bitter, shriveled queens... a classification in which you no doubt belong.
35
@21 News flash lots of us fat boys love other fat boys
. More of us to love and all that.
Plus some skinny twink could never hope to keep me warm in the snow we have been having.
Come to bear night some time at CCs (sans Ricin please) and you can see just how fun a chubby guy can be.
Come to bear night some time at CCs (sans Ricin please) and you can see just how fun a chubby guy can be.
36
From Dan's assessment, it sounds like someone who, at one time, has been involved in the community, like the Court or something like that, and has now been ostracized for some reason. The 11 bars in the letter typically sponsor such community-based events. The owners/management would therefore know the letter-writer.
37
I think you're right. I thought the same thing when I read it. Wacky Christian Haters don't talk about their "indignation towards the gay community," bitter gay people do
38
It seems like its obviously someone who has been around the Seattle scene long enough to truly have known Re-bar as a gay bar. I think its reputation as a theatre and a dance club have outweighed its reputation as a gay bar in the last few years, so I definitely think this lends weight to Dan's theory.
39
The next person who points out that "in hospital" is a Britishism is going to make me scream. In addition to Brit usage, it is popular with an affectation. I'll betcha the writer is NOT a Brit, but an uptight and pretentious twat-waffle who prides himself on being very sharp and precise.
40
I don't think it's a requirement that he fits in at the Cuff, the Wild Rose, or the Eagle. It isn't like the whole room falls silent and everyone turns to glare at you if you don't have the right look for the place. People who don't look like they fit in show up at every kind of bar, all the time. I bet half the patrons of any room you look into thinks the other half doesn't belong there.
41
Written in MS Word and based on word usage, likely a female. References to living, frozen, death... possibly contracted HIV and looking for revenge.
42
Anyone could get a list of 11 gay bars in Seattle, including Re-bar, in a few seconds from Google. I just did it, and got a map and everything. It requires no special knowledge, and given the extraordinarily low likelihood that this person is actually going to carry out this threat in person, presupposes absolutely nothing about his appearance or fit-in-ability.
45
@36: You could be right. Maybe it's that Sister of Perpetual Indulgence that i almost punched out for groping me at Purr one night!
46
@41 - That's an interesting theory -- someone who contracted HIV. Either a gay male, or a straight woman (maybe whose spouse/boyfriend was on the DL).
48
@47, that's as good a guess as any of the others. Seriously. None of these theories mean jack; all you've got is some letters, and if you can't trace the letters and he never acts again, there's a zero percent chance of finding him. The only way to get him is if he does something else -- keeps writing letters at a minimum, maybe staging some kind of attack. Frankly, threatening 11 bars at once suggests a child; a real attack is more likely to be one flubbed action at one bar or other public place.
Still, I'll bet the city's glad they covered the reservoir at Cal Anderson.
Still, I'll bet the city's glad they covered the reservoir at Cal Anderson.
49
I have another prediction.
The letter-writer is Canadian.
He/she uses the phrase "in hospital" instead of "in THE hospital". I know it's picky but that is Canadian vernacular. People from the U.S. always add the "the".
The letter-writer is Canadian.
He/she uses the phrase "in hospital" instead of "in THE hospital". I know it's picky but that is Canadian vernacular. People from the U.S. always add the "the".
50
FYI -
The line:
"They dont care theyre dead
and nearly frozen,
just as, presumably,
they didnt care that they were living"
is from the poem "A Display of Mackerel" by Mark Doty
http://www.poetryfoundation.org/archive/…
The line:
"They dont care theyre dead
and nearly frozen,
just as, presumably,
they didnt care that they were living"
is from the poem "A Display of Mackerel" by Mark Doty
http://www.poetryfoundation.org/archive/…
51
He has a scar on his left hand, walks with a limp, and has a dog named Bernard. Come, Watson, we have work to do!
52
@39: Wow, I agree with Fnarf.
Profiling is more a con game than a science. But this speculation--gay, possibly HIV+--sounds persuasive to me, and probably angers the anonymous letter writer whether true or not.
Profiling is more a con game than a science. But this speculation--gay, possibly HIV+--sounds persuasive to me, and probably angers the anonymous letter writer whether true or not.
53
Since we're playing CSI:SEATTLE today, I'll chip in:
Perhaps it's those awful Republican, McCain-donating owners of MANHUNT. They just used "in hospital" to throw us off the trail.
What's left of the bar scene after the phone and online sites decimated them is sure to be finished off by threats of biological warfare.
Or is it? (Laugh. Cough.)
Perhaps it's those awful Republican, McCain-donating owners of MANHUNT. They just used "in hospital" to throw us off the trail.
What's left of the bar scene after the phone and online sites decimated them is sure to be finished off by threats of biological warfare.
Or is it? (Laugh. Cough.)
54
I thought gay guy too, but the idea of an angry straight lady (Fag Hag comes to mind) seems to work as well. Someone who is tired of watching her gay hooking up all the time and just won't give her the time of day.
Why are we assuming it is a guy? I know statistics point that way BUT I wouldn't dismiss a pissed off and rejected Fag Hag.
Why are we assuming it is a guy? I know statistics point that way BUT I wouldn't dismiss a pissed off and rejected Fag Hag.
55
Is there enough consensus on the writer's gender and sexuality that we can start referring to him as "The Ricin Queen?"
Also, I believe his use of the phrase "in hospital" but not the word "whilst" means he wears a monocle...but in the wrong eye.
Also, I believe his use of the phrase "in hospital" but not the word "whilst" means he wears a monocle...but in the wrong eye.
56
@ 50 (myself)
I meant to add: if read the full poem i linked above (that the author of the letter quoted from), it definitely supports the 'scorned gay' theory....
I meant to add: if read the full poem i linked above (that the author of the letter quoted from), it definitely supports the 'scorned gay' theory....
57
Wow - does anyone notice the amount of in-fighting this mere speculation is causing? Twink vs bear vs fat vs skinny? Male vs female? Pos vs Neg? Aside from keeping people from going out, thinking this is one of our own family is creating a whole lotta mistrust and is probably the true goal of the author, make us attack our own. I don't want to credit them for thinking this would be the true goal, but we shouldn't give in to generalizing too much (unless you want to start targeting people who "look at you funny" in bars, and well, that kills my dating life).
58
I am not sure about Dan's assessment. I wouldn't automatically think it was some bitter, old queen. I think it's just another fundie fuck head. Probably just get their kicks from frightening people. I do know they better not get caught fucking with someone's drink. Nothing like a mob of angry queens kicking your ass to wake you up. And if they do hurt anyone, let's see to it they go away for a very long time.
59
HEY GUYS! I think the usage of "IN HOSPITAL" is a clue! It's not American! I just came up with this on my own and didn't see it's been pointed out 1.000.000 times in the past 24 hrs! GO GO GADGET DETECTIVES!
60
@50 -- now, that's an actual clue. "Probably a gay man", "Canadian", "Word user" etc. isn't information at all, even if it's true. What are you going to do, look for gay men? Good luck with that.
But finding the text of the letter in a published poem, that's interesting. Something thinks that gay men are mackerel, and practically dead already. Fascinating. Also no use in tracking him down, but maybe you'll find that book in his library after you catch him -- or that web page in his cache.
How many poetry readers are there in Seattle, anyways? Five or six?
But finding the text of the letter in a published poem, that's interesting. Something thinks that gay men are mackerel, and practically dead already. Fascinating. Also no use in tracking him down, but maybe you'll find that book in his library after you catch him -- or that web page in his cache.
How many poetry readers are there in Seattle, anyways? Five or six?
61
Just came across this post and I thought the exact same thing after reading the letter. It was sent by a gay...
62
@57, DON'T forget if you are a nice quiet guy; EVERYONE will assume the letters came from you. You know, the shy guy by the wall at the Cuff or Purr.
64
Oh, Dan! E-mails threatening your family??
Thats horrible..How do you deal with that?
I hate the animosity of the internet sometimes..
And doesn't everyone realize that you are "fuckin' awesome?"
And don't disuage fat guys..we are not all jolly..
Thats horrible..How do you deal with that?
I hate the animosity of the internet sometimes..
And doesn't everyone realize that you are "fuckin' awesome?"
And don't disuage fat guys..we are not all jolly..
71
It might be worth a couple of phone calls to find out if Mark Doty's gotten any peculiar fan mail, or if he's ever read in Seattle and noticed any weirdos in the audience. Think our letter writer hangs out at Hugo House or Open Books?
72
Any chance it's OFSSA's friend from the latest Savage Love (http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Savag…
73
What I was wondering was, why wasn't Martin's Off Madison mentioned, or Galerias, which has a gay latino disco night on Saturday? Those are definitely gay bars, why weren't they targeted? Not that I wish they were targeted, but does that mean that the upcoming "pub crawl" as a sign of support would only be for the gay bars mentioned?
74
as far as i'm aware, mark hasn't read in seattle for awhile. i'm a big fan of his, and while he reads in california a lot (and sometimes oregon), i can't remember the last time he was in the seattle area...
76
Ok - hate to jump in on the speculation - but yes @73, there is something odd about this list. The Crescent has been a "mix" bar for the past few years and there's no mention of newer bars either meaning that this is one really out of touch 'mo or they're not gay.
78
changes in wallingford wasn't on the list.but i'm starting my pub crawl there..
jello shots jello shots jello shots
jello shots jello shots jello shots
79
What Dan said, er wrote.
My arm-chair analysis
Meth manufacture/distribution seems like a direction. Especially the home chemist with a supplemental income in distribution. An income from ass or cash, whatever. Why?
The letter is intelligent. (the missing from in hospital is a common American typo, btw) Its use of multi-syllable words demonstrates intelligence and their repeated use demonstrates the writer has a comfort with its/his/her college level intelligence.
The writer, or coconspirator chemist, are very specific with the use of numbers. The writer is comfortable with at least 5. The writer is confident folks want to get high on chemicals and at least 55 will on any given Saturday night at a Seattle gay bar. The writer or chemist has experience cooking. The numbers demonstrates a rudimentary raw ingredient to product yield experience. Product yeild meaning shit that can be sold.
The writer has gotten people high on chemicals. The writer/club-bar dealter knows his crystal is dirt and has made people sick. The writer knows they will come back for more. The ricin chemical, if told to someone as being something else, will be ingested with no questions asked.
Spoken, er written, like a street dealer doing a cost to benefit analysis.
But the writer deludes/motivates itself to send those letters along the lines laid out by dan, et al.
The writer is reading all of our posts.
80
It's a graduate degree thesis in progress folks. Just play along as if we're chimps in the wild and pay no attention to the cameras.
81
You are all just wanting to see this go down and so you are taunting him and trying to get this to happen... Idiots. Can't you live one day without drama?
84
You seriously get that kind of vicious hate mail from gay men? I'm honestly shocked. Why would they say those horrible things about you and your family? I mean, what reason do they give (if any) for why they seem to hate you so passionately?
85
1. with a foreskin he doesn't keep clean SO FUCKING GROSS!
2. lmao @ 31
3. @ fnarf 39 & 48: totally.
2. lmao @ 31
3. @ fnarf 39 & 48: totally.
88
Wow, you are good-you got all that from a letter. Really Dan? As one of the "gays" you actually likes you and often enjoys your commentary- I a little concerned about what I detect as a recent slip- but, hey I'm still in your court-craziness and all- Oh, whatever happened to the bored/isolated loner high school kid-
89
84. That was my reaction too. As upset I am at this stupid threat, I finished reading Dan's post more upset by what he said he and his family go through.
It's bad enough Dan gets shit on so much here, but to pick on Terry and especially D.J. is just a low-life hateful thing to do.
It's bad enough Dan gets shit on so much here, but to pick on Terry and especially D.J. is just a low-life hateful thing to do.
91
My first thought upon reading the letter was that it was written by the jealous lover type guy who is going out of town for the weekend and wants to make sure his boyfriend stays at home.
92
someone already made reference to this earlier, but there is underlying religious tones if you research numerology and the significance of 55. (11 gay bars x 5 people = 55)
but i wont go there. research it yourself.
but i wont go there. research it yourself.
93
Event: Capitol Hill Pub Crawl
Date: Friday January 9th
Time: 8PM-2AM
11 Bars in the Capitol Hill area have received Death threats from anonymous letters graphically depicting the possible threat of Ricin poisoning.
On Friday Night January 9th 2009, 11 Bars operating in tandem to combat Hate and Fear, have organized a Capitol Hill PUB CRAWL. All people are encouraged to support our efforts to bring life to our local bars for support against Fear and Hatred posed to our local Gay community.
The Pub Crawl will began at 8pm and continues until 2am at all the 11 bars.
We ask that you gather your friends, pick a specific bar and work your way around the 11 establishments, we are trying not to get everyone at one point and move around together as most of the establishments cannot fit an overload of people at one time
The Elite 1520 E Olive Way (206) 860-0999
Neighbours 1509 Broadway (206) 324-5358
The Wildrose 1021 E Pike St (206) 324-9210
The Cuff 1533 13th Ave (206) 323-1525
Purr 1518 11th Ave (206) 325-3112
The Seattle Eagle 314 E Pike (206) 621-7591
R Place 619 E Pine St(206) 322-8828
Re-bar 1114 Howell Street (206) 233-9873
C.C.Attles 1501 E Madison Street (206) 323-4017
Madison Pub 1315 E Madison St (206) 325-6537
The Crescent 1413 E Olive Way (206) 726-1774
And remember not to leave your beverage unattended
Peace and be safe
Date: Friday January 9th
Time: 8PM-2AM
11 Bars in the Capitol Hill area have received Death threats from anonymous letters graphically depicting the possible threat of Ricin poisoning.
On Friday Night January 9th 2009, 11 Bars operating in tandem to combat Hate and Fear, have organized a Capitol Hill PUB CRAWL. All people are encouraged to support our efforts to bring life to our local bars for support against Fear and Hatred posed to our local Gay community.
The Pub Crawl will began at 8pm and continues until 2am at all the 11 bars.
We ask that you gather your friends, pick a specific bar and work your way around the 11 establishments, we are trying not to get everyone at one point and move around together as most of the establishments cannot fit an overload of people at one time
The Elite 1520 E Olive Way (206) 860-0999
Neighbours 1509 Broadway (206) 324-5358
The Wildrose 1021 E Pike St (206) 324-9210
The Cuff 1533 13th Ave (206) 323-1525
Purr 1518 11th Ave (206) 325-3112
The Seattle Eagle 314 E Pike (206) 621-7591
R Place 619 E Pine St(206) 322-8828
Re-bar 1114 Howell Street (206) 233-9873
C.C.Attles 1501 E Madison Street (206) 323-4017
Madison Pub 1315 E Madison St (206) 325-6537
The Crescent 1413 E Olive Way (206) 726-1774
And remember not to leave your beverage unattended
Peace and be safe
94
Huh. From commenter Asparagirl over on metafilter http://www.metafilter.com/78053/Ricin-sc…
"Not only is the writer probably British, but he's probably old-school educated, too: he correctly writes "11" as a numeral and "five" as a word, which basically only copywriters do these days."
"Not only is the writer probably British, but he's probably old-school educated, too: he correctly writes "11" as a numeral and "five" as a word, which basically only copywriters do these days."
95
Thoughhhhh the weird phrasing of "this is merely your warning for which you can do nothing to prevent me" does rather fail to fit with the otherwise intense grammatical focus.
Also, "I have always had time on my side" is . . . what does that mean?
Also, "I have always had time on my side" is . . . what does that mean?
96
He's clearly informed by torture-porn. His air of aloof intelligence and the disciplined restraint in his prose (some weirdly plagiarized) are lifted straight from characters that populate the fantasies of the insecure little fucks, desperate for control. You know, of course, that the poor little worm is watching all of these threads (is maybe even participating in them), masturbating furiously.
97
Okay, I'm stuck on the fact that people threaten D.J. I understand the right to free speech, but I think threats are a different category. It really pisses me off that police can't do anything about letters like that!
98
@26
An aside: The Columbine killers were not bullied, contrary to popular belief. There was rampant poor reporting after the incident, with scared kids telling reporters what they'd heard their classmates say on TV, repeating rumors, and responding to leading questions. The shooters weren't victims, they didn't "break" - they were just completely fucked up and evil, and by the looks of the evidence, they were that going that way for a long time before entering high school.
An aside: The Columbine killers were not bullied, contrary to popular belief. There was rampant poor reporting after the incident, with scared kids telling reporters what they'd heard their classmates say on TV, repeating rumors, and responding to leading questions. The shooters weren't victims, they didn't "break" - they were just completely fucked up and evil, and by the looks of the evidence, they were that going that way for a long time before entering high school.
99
Maybe this is just foolishness but I would like to point out that Poison historically has been a woman's method of killing. Its not to say that men can't or wont use it, but most often it is implemented by females.
Aside from that, assuming one is obese or even ugly doesn't often work. It could just as easily be someone that is shy. The silent ones are often the ones people need be most wary of.
Just my two cents.. take it or leave it.
Aside from that, assuming one is obese or even ugly doesn't often work. It could just as easily be someone that is shy. The silent ones are often the ones people need be most wary of.
Just my two cents.. take it or leave it.
100
The knee-jerk reaction to peg this 'unknown gay man' as ugly or fat says a lot about us as individuals and a group -- who would we want it to be? Someone undesirable. But just as serial murderers and rapists don't often look like the monsters we'd expect (handsome Ted Bundy, for example), this sad person, if gay and rejecting gay social life, probably doesn't either.
I agree with #99. Probably just someone who's shy rather than hideously deformed.
And also -- can we drop all the superficial hating? Fatty, twinky, etc... It's bitchy bullshit. We've got more than enough enemies without turning the gun on ourselves.
I agree with #99. Probably just someone who's shy rather than hideously deformed.
And also -- can we drop all the superficial hating? Fatty, twinky, etc... It's bitchy bullshit. We've got more than enough enemies without turning the gun on ourselves.
101
"I wouldn't be surprised if this person had a meth problem and a string of failed relationships. He's someone who has probably, through the choices he's made, succeeded in making a complete hash of his life. But he doesn't want to take responsibility for his choices"
Wow, nice way to be judgmental, Dan. Not that I have sympathy for anyone resorting to this kind of terrorism, but you just revealed a whole lot about your own brand of bitterness.
Might as well sum it up by saying: "If you're not an A-list gay who owns property in a hip urban center, aren't married and don't have 2.5 kids and a fabulous career, you have no one to blame but yourself, loser." Such a typical "Power Gay" attitude.
Wow, nice way to be judgmental, Dan. Not that I have sympathy for anyone resorting to this kind of terrorism, but you just revealed a whole lot about your own brand of bitterness.
Might as well sum it up by saying: "If you're not an A-list gay who owns property in a hip urban center, aren't married and don't have 2.5 kids and a fabulous career, you have no one to blame but yourself, loser." Such a typical "Power Gay" attitude.
102
although we have here in germany a fair share of homophobes they never derive their views from the scriptures. that is outfashioned over here and to my best knowledge it is also the case elsewhere in europe. they instead stick to arrogance in its pure form. "we hate you because you're a faggot and that's disgusting and we fucking hate fucking faggots." but then they don't hold much of american poetry either.
who does? my second guess is that it was either "remix"(#50) or this "but waaaaait"(#92) guy. whatfor would a sane person withhold interesting information hinting us to "research" the bible on our own instead?
just my two cents.
who does? my second guess is that it was either "remix"(#50) or this "but waaaaait"(#92) guy. whatfor would a sane person withhold interesting information hinting us to "research" the bible on our own instead?
just my two cents.
103
As someone who is contentedly stable as an "ex-gay" ... I find your caricaturization of the potential terrorist as possibly a "blood-brother to ... ex-gay" implies a deep ignorance of who we, as a whole, really are.
For the most part, we are intelligent, balanced, stable, tolerant of what we may not personally accept and loving. We looked at what identifying as gay and all of the predetermined relational options of what that means and said, "no thanks." Some of us have experienced orientation shift and others haven't ... and we are all living out our faith and life as we see fit. I and everyone I know, have no desire to force others into our line of thinking.
I hope you realize that even though we have strong moral, public policy and spiritual disagreements ... we don't have to be a depressed psychotic terrorist simply because we don't agree with you or have your blessing.
I don't care if the man/woman is a religious zealot. I don't care if they do turn out to be ex-gay. I don't care if they are a gay activist trying to fake a "hate" crime. Whoever did it is a psychotic who deserves a lot of jail time for making terrorist threats.
And no matter who they are I pray they will find a peaceful resolution to their inner conflicts ... while in jail. :) I have made it a matter of prayer that while our gay friends and their friends are drinking in the face of danger ... I am praying for their safety and genuinely care that they have the freedom to assemble in peace and safety.
Mr. Savage, please don't stigmatize "ex-gay's" in such a way. And before someone says that I shouldn't stigmatize gays either ... you are right and I try not too. But again, strong disagreements doesn't equal to profiling a psychotic person with a negative generalized view of what an "ex-gay" believes or experiences.
Sidenote: I quote "ex-gay" because I hate that label.
More...
For the most part, we are intelligent, balanced, stable, tolerant of what we may not personally accept and loving. We looked at what identifying as gay and all of the predetermined relational options of what that means and said, "no thanks." Some of us have experienced orientation shift and others haven't ... and we are all living out our faith and life as we see fit. I and everyone I know, have no desire to force others into our line of thinking.
I hope you realize that even though we have strong moral, public policy and spiritual disagreements ... we don't have to be a depressed psychotic terrorist simply because we don't agree with you or have your blessing.
I don't care if the man/woman is a religious zealot. I don't care if they do turn out to be ex-gay. I don't care if they are a gay activist trying to fake a "hate" crime. Whoever did it is a psychotic who deserves a lot of jail time for making terrorist threats.
And no matter who they are I pray they will find a peaceful resolution to their inner conflicts ... while in jail. :) I have made it a matter of prayer that while our gay friends and their friends are drinking in the face of danger ... I am praying for their safety and genuinely care that they have the freedom to assemble in peace and safety.
Mr. Savage, please don't stigmatize "ex-gay's" in such a way. And before someone says that I shouldn't stigmatize gays either ... you are right and I try not too. But again, strong disagreements doesn't equal to profiling a psychotic person with a negative generalized view of what an "ex-gay" believes or experiences.
Sidenote: I quote "ex-gay" because I hate that label.
104
The last sentence of my last paragraph is better restated as the fact that strong disagreements do not equate to stigmatization. Profiling a psychotic person with the characteristics defined by a very negative view of what it means to be "ex-gay" does stigmatize people like myself.
105
Are there any popular gay bars in the region NOT on the list? Perhaps its a threat from a competitor? Recession makes otherwise not so crazy people go crazy... and the crazy go even more crazy.
106
???? Who knows. One thing i do know though is that Randy Thomas is an idiot. Ex gay is like saying you are an ex human being. Grow up Randy. We are dealing with someone who is probably very much like you but knows he cannot pray the gay away so instead is on the brink of breakdown through none other than current violent thoughts through threats.
107
103. So let me get this straight. Some psycho jack ass sends a letter threatening to kill gay people throughout the month of January, and you decide it's a good idea to enter this thread and proselytize about your fucked up, harmful chosen way of life?
You pitiful self-serving asshole. Go the fuck away.
You pitiful self-serving asshole. Go the fuck away.
108
103: You said "No, thanks." Good luck with changing who you are... all in the name of some delusion called a "higher power," which you got from some stupid, violent book written by a bunch of *human* douche bags . *My* bible, The Ethical Slut, tells me to be whoever the fuck I want to be, including however and whoever I want to fuck, as long as I'm not (non-consensually) hurting anyone. ;) So, yeah, enjoy your homo-erotic fantasies while being disgusted by whatever set of genitals into which you are inserting your "ex-gay" penis. BTW, if you hate the term "ex-gay," why don't you come up with a better one? And also, learn the difference between "to" and "too."
109
Randy Thomas @ 103: And before someone says that I shouldn't stigmatize gays either ... you are right and I try not too.
I don't care if they are a gay activist trying to fake a "hate" crime.
Nope, no stigmatization there.
I don't care if they are a gay activist trying to fake a "hate" crime.
Nope, no stigmatization there.
110
i think heterosexual male teen to college age. repressed and angry about his feelings that he cant deal with. lashing out in a passive aggresive way. making idle threats to thwart his own inner feelings. this person needs to be removed from the gene pool permanently.
111
Well the writer has to be from Seattle because poison in a drink is such a passive-aggressive thing to do.
112
I'll tell you who did it. It was Dan Savage. I mean, think about it: in the midst of an economic downturn with newspapers folding left and right, the Stranger needs a big local story to boost circulation. And seeing as it's a story involving the gay community, people will turn here for the scoop before they go to some stodgy moral panic media outlet that probably just finished running a five-part story expressing outrage that Toys in Babeland sells dildos or something.
Either that or it was some fat dude.
Either that or it was some fat dude.
113
@11
I noticed that too. My instinct from local experience and pattern recognition: British or Indian (thanks to British imperialism).
@ All
Dan, your theory -feels- right. I'd be interested in Gavin de Becker's take on it.
I was out at Neighbours tonight and I think the Pub Crawl is a bad idea. Why? Because regulars know each other. Stick to your favourite club; you will have an inherent advantage.
I noticed that too. My instinct from local experience and pattern recognition: British or Indian (thanks to British imperialism).
@ All
Dan, your theory -feels- right. I'd be interested in Gavin de Becker's take on it.
I was out at Neighbours tonight and I think the Pub Crawl is a bad idea. Why? Because regulars know each other. Stick to your favourite club; you will have an inherent advantage.
115
Well! I had no idea I was telling the VP of Exodus to fuck off!
That just made my year. Thanks Jimmy!
That just made my year. Thanks Jimmy!
116
Thanks for the analysis, Dan.
Randy's "logic" is extremely flawed. He evades Dan's point rather than addresses it. I wrote an article about it on Ex-Gay Watch that picks apart his argument.
http://www.exgaywatch.com/wp/2009/01/ran…
Randy's "logic" is extremely flawed. He evades Dan's point rather than addresses it. I wrote an article about it on Ex-Gay Watch that picks apart his argument.
http://www.exgaywatch.com/wp/2009/01/ran…
117
Reparative therapy ("ex-gay"), the psychotherapeutic process pioneered by Joseph Nicolosi and Charles Socarides, is widely condemned by the vast majority of mental health professionals, including the American Psychiatric Association, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Medical Association, the American Psychological Association and the American Counseling Association. In addition, the National Association of School Psychologists, the National Association of Social Workers and the Royal College of Nursing also have renounced it.
The supposed need for reparative therapy derives solely from this assumption, that homosexuality is a mental illness and, therefore, in need of treatment. The fact that this assumption is based on spiritual-scriptural interpretation, rather than on scientific research and evidence, is apparent in that most reparative-therapy practitioners and centers are financially backed and supported by conservative Christian transformational ministries. They maintain that homosexuality is a socially destructive and undesirable chosen behavior, and that change is necessary and possible. Despite contradictions with current mainstream research results, reparative-therapy supporters continue to use biased research to purport this therapy to be an effective and safe alternative to an unhappy lifestyle.
Reparative therapy is, in short, a tampering and manipulation of the mind and conscience, the psychological well-being of a human being, something that we as humans do not have the right to tamper with. It is interesting and peculiar that this segment of the Christian community, which claims confidence in the power of prayer and the power of the Holy Spirit, would stoop to and participate in such medically unsound, potentially psychologically harmful techniques simply to satisfy their own egos and scriptural understanding.
More...
The supposed need for reparative therapy derives solely from this assumption, that homosexuality is a mental illness and, therefore, in need of treatment. The fact that this assumption is based on spiritual-scriptural interpretation, rather than on scientific research and evidence, is apparent in that most reparative-therapy practitioners and centers are financially backed and supported by conservative Christian transformational ministries. They maintain that homosexuality is a socially destructive and undesirable chosen behavior, and that change is necessary and possible. Despite contradictions with current mainstream research results, reparative-therapy supporters continue to use biased research to purport this therapy to be an effective and safe alternative to an unhappy lifestyle.
Reparative therapy is, in short, a tampering and manipulation of the mind and conscience, the psychological well-being of a human being, something that we as humans do not have the right to tamper with. It is interesting and peculiar that this segment of the Christian community, which claims confidence in the power of prayer and the power of the Holy Spirit, would stoop to and participate in such medically unsound, potentially psychologically harmful techniques simply to satisfy their own egos and scriptural understanding.
118
Those are definitely gay bars, why weren't they targeted? Not that I wish they were targeted, but does that mean that the upcoming "pub crawl" as a sign of support would only be for the gay bars mentioned?
Yours, Ambien online
Yours, Ambien online
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