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News & ArtsMonday, January 5, 2009
News Third-Hand Smoke
Posted by Dan Savage on Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 4:12 PM
Just in case Slog's resident smokers missed this story over the New Year's holiday...
Parents who smoke often open a window or turn on a fan to clear the air for their children, but experts now have identified a related threat to children’s health that isn’t as easy to get rid of: third-hand smoke.That’s the term being used to describe the invisible yet toxic brew of gases and particles clinging to smokers’ hair and clothing, not to mention cushions and carpeting, that lingers long after second-hand smoke has cleared from a room. The residue includes heavy metals, carcinogens and even radioactive materials that young children can get on their hands and ingest, especially if they’re crawling or playing on the floor....
Third-hand smoke is what one smells when a smoker gets in an elevator after going outside for a cigarette, he said, or in a hotel room where people were smoking. “Your nose isn’t lying,” [said Dr. Jonathan P. Winickoff, the lead author of the study and an assistant professor of pediatrics at Harvard Medical School]. “The stuff is so toxic that your brain is telling you: 'Get away.'"
Remember how it took weeks and weeks for the walls and booths in bars to stop stinking after the smoking ban went into effect? Good times. But here's what we have to draw from this report: smokers are, by definition, physically abusive parents—whether they smoke in front of their kids or not.
2
Tell you what, people. You stop wearing your fucking perfume and cologne in the elevator, and then we'll talk about my "third-hand smoke".
3
Then why isn't everyone dead? Why haven't people from the past many decades (centuries?) dropped dead as a result of "third-hand" cigarette smoke? I don't like smoking, and I'm actually glad that I don't have to come home smelling of smoke any more, but this strikes me as BS.
5
Let's just ignore those studies that show the kids of smokers are pretty much fine, especially after they leave home and enough time has passed for all that second-hand smoke to clear their systems.
And when I say "let us", I really mean "let Dan".
And when I say "let us", I really mean "let Dan".
6
Smoking parents who co-sleep with babies increase the risk of SIDS, even if they never smoke near them.
8
I read the article. There's nothing in there that positively links health problems to any "third hand" smoke.
They just talk about the gross stuff that's in the smell of a smoked-in room. And yes, there's weird shit in there, even radioactive stuff, but it's in such tiny amounts that it will do less harm than burning a pancake or toast or a candle or opening your window as a car drives by.
They just talk about the gross stuff that's in the smell of a smoked-in room. And yes, there's weird shit in there, even radioactive stuff, but it's in such tiny amounts that it will do less harm than burning a pancake or toast or a candle or opening your window as a car drives by.
9
You know, I'm all fine with talking about the dangers of smoking, but if we can agree that such things as "third-hand smoke" are bad, can't we also have a discussion about the wretched tar that is used for roads and roofs, exhaust from cars and other vehicles, the ink used to print receipts, books, magazines, new carpet, paint, Febreeze.
If a person's nose isn't lying about the smoke, I have to believe it isn't lying about other odors.
At some point we will have to focus our efforts on the other wretched, wretched things we breath on a daily basis - and if we ever start talking about forth hand smoke, we know the time has come.
If a person's nose isn't lying about the smoke, I have to believe it isn't lying about other odors.
At some point we will have to focus our efforts on the other wretched, wretched things we breath on a daily basis - and if we ever start talking about forth hand smoke, we know the time has come.
10
It's the same if you fart in the car with your kids, feeding molecules of your poop up their little noses. The stuff is so foul their little brains are telling them: 'Get away." But they can't because of the car seat. Evil.
13
First hand smoke isn't even that dangerous over two decades. Second hand? far, far less. Third hand? Statistically zero.
This is a joke, it's a manufactured news story. You can find heavy metals (in unspecified quantities, just like 'third hand' smoke) on/in everything nowadays.
Since they don't have much to say about quantities, I'm going to go ahead and assume that 1 minute in the mid-day sun in January is 100x more deadly than a lifetime of 'third hand' smoke.
"smokers are, by definition, physically abusive parents—whether they smoke in front of their kids or not."
Okay, that's just stupid. Do you realize the how often you subject children to poison gas when you drive, or just walk on the street? Or free radicals when you give them processed food/medication or anything that touches plastic? Or carcinogens just from fertilizer in the grass? By that definition, every parent is 'abusive.'
This is a joke, it's a manufactured news story. You can find heavy metals (in unspecified quantities, just like 'third hand' smoke) on/in everything nowadays.
Since they don't have much to say about quantities, I'm going to go ahead and assume that 1 minute in the mid-day sun in January is 100x more deadly than a lifetime of 'third hand' smoke.
"smokers are, by definition, physically abusive parents—whether they smoke in front of their kids or not."
Okay, that's just stupid. Do you realize the how often you subject children to poison gas when you drive, or just walk on the street? Or free radicals when you give them processed food/medication or anything that touches plastic? Or carcinogens just from fertilizer in the grass? By that definition, every parent is 'abusive.'
14
I can't believe this ... Connie Willis predicted this ridiculousness in her novel Bellwether. I thought it was funny at the time, now I'm thinking Americans really are insane.
Sure, the leftover chemicals from smoking are probably bad for you. And so is the flame retardant that the government requires in all your furniture, the chemicals oozing out of your stain-resistant carpet, and the corn syrup in your kids' favorite snacks. Can we find something more imminently dangerous to worry about?
Sure, the leftover chemicals from smoking are probably bad for you. And so is the flame retardant that the government requires in all your furniture, the chemicals oozing out of your stain-resistant carpet, and the corn syrup in your kids' favorite snacks. Can we find something more imminently dangerous to worry about?
15
Um, if third hand smoke is child abuse, then feeding your kids beef is ABSOLUTELY child abuse. It kills your kids just as fast as smoking, and, just like smoking, the longer you don't eat beef the greater the health benefits. Even if they wise up and quit eating beef after they move out, some damage is already done.
A vegetarian diet (ie, no Smith or Quinn's) makes your kids live at least 3-7 years longer on average and reduces your risk for all kinds of diseases, from heart disease to obesity to cancer to diabetes.
http://qjmed.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/cont…
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cp…
(Many more articles on scholar.google.com.)
A vegetarian diet (ie, no Smith or Quinn's) makes your kids live at least 3-7 years longer on average and reduces your risk for all kinds of diseases, from heart disease to obesity to cancer to diabetes.
http://qjmed.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/cont…
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cp…
(Many more articles on scholar.google.com.)
16
yeah, i'm with number 10 here. farting in your car with your kids inside is physical abuse too. get on the trolley, dan!
17
Dan, your conclusion is completely overblown and wrongheaded, and you know it.
The study suggests that the more knowledge smokers have about the dangers of smoking, the more likely they will take measures to protect their kids from them. In fact, it's conclusion reads: "beliefs about the health effects of thirdhand smoke are independently associated with home smoking bans."
To equate a smoker who tries to reduce harm to the kids (by opening a window or using a fan) with a parent who hits, burns, whips, or starves their kids is not only unfair, it's ridiculous.
The study suggests that the more knowledge smokers have about the dangers of smoking, the more likely they will take measures to protect their kids from them. In fact, it's conclusion reads: "beliefs about the health effects of thirdhand smoke are independently associated with home smoking bans."
To equate a smoker who tries to reduce harm to the kids (by opening a window or using a fan) with a parent who hits, burns, whips, or starves their kids is not only unfair, it's ridiculous.
19
there is nothing in this study linking "third-hand smoke" exposure to disease outcomes. it's just a phone survey of peoples' attitudes about smoking, with some sexy new terminology thrown in to get some press. nothing to see here, people.
20
I remember when visiting the Seattle Art Museum, where they had a large door panel from a French teahouse, how it still smelled of tea and smoke aromas, even after 100 years, when you got near it.
Makes sense.
Makes sense.
21
But what's REALLY bad is fourth hand smoke! That's the smoke that comes out of people's ears when they're obsessed and ranting about the dangers of smoking. That'll kill you dead.
23
none of this matters. what matters is that smokers and their clothes and their cars and their living spaces and their breath and their hair are the most disgusting smelling things on the planet. we can smell you from 20ft away. we can smell you after you leave the room. we don't want to sit next to you. yuck. yuck. yuck.
yeah, new carpet stinks, and may have carcinogens just as long as smokey walls do, but at least the smell goes away.
you smokers, you stink ALWAYS.
yeah, new carpet stinks, and may have carcinogens just as long as smokey walls do, but at least the smell goes away.
you smokers, you stink ALWAYS.
26
The thing that no one wants to say, has the courage to say here, is that Left Hand Smoke is the real killer. I want to off myself and my whole family every time I hear that band.
28
I collect postwar furniture, and have done so for the last thirty-two years (long before it became "popular"). One of my greatest satisfactions in my small life is to take a lamp or vase or end table and wash off the years of nicotine that have usually accumulated on them. Do you suppose that in doing this I am releasing seventh or eighth hand smoke?
29
I have not had a cigarette for four days. Cold turkey; hopefully this will be the time I get that monkey off my back after almost 15 years. But when I read shit like this I just want to light up, suck down a cancer stick, and put it out on the eyeball of an anti-smoking advocate.
Third hand smoke? You are flogging A DEAD HORSE.
Third hand smoke? You are flogging A DEAD HORSE.
30
"smokers are, by definition, physically abusive parents—whether they smoke in front of their kids or not."
I choose to walk on sidewalks with my daughter where she inhales the exhaust fumes of passing cars. Arrest me before I abuse again.
Dan, I love ya, but kiss my ass.
I choose to walk on sidewalks with my daughter where she inhales the exhaust fumes of passing cars. Arrest me before I abuse again.
Dan, I love ya, but kiss my ass.
33
Unless you live alone and never have visitors, you're an idiot to think smoking only hurts the inside of your own body. Keep dreaming children, keep dreaming.
35
Oh, for God's sake, Dan. You sound like one of those weirdo housewives that troll parenting websites. You are a better parent than those ________ because you ________ and don't _______. Feels good, doesn't it? Savor it, bask in it. Work it out of your system so you can function on a rational level.
I can't believe you buy this third hand smoke crap without anything besides a media scare to go on. What is the actual toxicity of, say, pack-a-day mommy's hair compared to home-dye-job mommy's hair? There's invisible amonia in that hair dye, you know, that may cling to the shower curtain and after years of exposure KILL YOUR CHILD. Is cleaning your fridge with bleach child abuse as well? Is it more or less abusive than sneaking outside to smoke a few times a day?
I can't believe you buy this third hand smoke crap without anything besides a media scare to go on. What is the actual toxicity of, say, pack-a-day mommy's hair compared to home-dye-job mommy's hair? There's invisible amonia in that hair dye, you know, that may cling to the shower curtain and after years of exposure KILL YOUR CHILD. Is cleaning your fridge with bleach child abuse as well? Is it more or less abusive than sneaking outside to smoke a few times a day?
36
Physically abusive parents... really? I've read enough of your "Every Child Deserves A Mother and Father" posts to know that's a gross exaggeration.
37
You pro smoke suckers can bitch all want about how oppressed you are from having to go outside and stand in the snow and smoke your up the sidewalk, and testify how harmless your second hand smoke, and that shitty tar that reeks on your clothes when come back in side. It’s a pretty small price to pay for common courtesy (maybe there is an extra virgin in heaven just for you.) As a small “L” liberal I have all ways supported smokers right when it has been an adult business.
Tavern: Yes
Ice Cream Parlor: No
I agreed with your rights to a point. That is until a couple of weeks ago I developed a near fatal case of penmoniaa and septicemia do to sharing a room with a hard-core smoker, and that was only for three days
I was in ICU for two weeks (and may have to go back if I can’t heal up here at the nursing home.) and am stuck off and on a ventilator with fucking tubes and wires sticking out of me for who knows when, (and who knows how log before I’ll have to go back) and that was because of having to share a room with a chain smoker for 3 days.
Finally, how can you deny second hand smoke allegorizes but believe in being allergic to cats?
Tavern: Yes
Ice Cream Parlor: No
I agreed with your rights to a point. That is until a couple of weeks ago I developed a near fatal case of penmoniaa and septicemia do to sharing a room with a hard-core smoker, and that was only for three days
I was in ICU for two weeks (and may have to go back if I can’t heal up here at the nursing home.) and am stuck off and on a ventilator with fucking tubes and wires sticking out of me for who knows when, (and who knows how log before I’ll have to go back) and that was because of having to share a room with a chain smoker for 3 days.
Finally, how can you deny second hand smoke allegorizes but believe in being allergic to cats?
38
Um elenchos you didn't read that article too carefully did you? The article says, "Because it is not known whether the risk caused by smoking is associated with prenatal smoking, postpartum smoking, or both, bedsharing among either prenatal or postpartum smokers should be strongly discouraged."
While it is true that babies born to mothers who smoke are more likely to die of asphyxiation or SIDS it is not the case that it is sleeping next to a smoker that does it. It may be that these infants are not as strong as the infants of non-smoking mothers and therefore are more likely to be smothered in a shared bed.
While it is true that babies born to mothers who smoke are more likely to die of asphyxiation or SIDS it is not the case that it is sleeping next to a smoker that does it. It may be that these infants are not as strong as the infants of non-smoking mothers and therefore are more likely to be smothered in a shared bed.
39
"heavy metals, carcinogens and even radioactive materials"
All of which are everywhere in minute quantities.
OH GOD, THE TOXINS, HELP ME L RON HUBBARD!
All of which are everywhere in minute quantities.
OH GOD, THE TOXINS, HELP ME L RON HUBBARD!
41
Let's say we get rid of first hand ridiculous conclusion drawing and story generation first as we all know that that kills more than third-hand smoke any day!
42
They should ban cigarettes and make nicotine nasal sprays available over the counter. That way the addicts can get their fix without hurting anyone else.
43
Let's be honest for a sec 'kay? The world is terribly overpopulated so let's fart more, smoke more, drive more and kill off those pesky progeny alright? Oh and before smoking existed, people lived for ever huh? Go tell that to the dinosaurs. Sheesh.
44
I like Dan's advice column and many of his blogs. This one however makes me want to take up smoking again so I can go to America, stalk Dan, and blow smoke at him.
45
Lazy and irresponsible journalism seems to be the way to go with the stranger. At this point I dont know why I read it anymore, maybe I like being angry at idiots, makes me feel superior or some shit like that.
46
I'm willing to bet that the parents who feed their kids McDonald's, let their children partake in the high fructose delivery system known as soda, and buy video games and dvds instead of bikes and catchers' mitts are far more abusive than parents you have taken to task here. Obesity and diabetes are far more prevalent in this society than the effects of exposure to the radioactive residue et al.
47
Why hasn't anyone noticed that the only thing this study covered was what people *believe* about THS? There was no measurement, no science, no honesty, just a survey of people's beliefs, and this was presented as proof.
More details here:
http://www.davehitt.com/blog2/third-hand…
More details here:
http://www.davehitt.com/blog2/third-hand…
48
@5 I have been out of the home for 22+ years and pretty much fine still sucks. I would rather be healthy then pretty much fine.
49
One thing to remember is that smokers are _addicts_. Talking to them about smoking is like talking to a junkie, or an alcoholic, or a brick wall. They've got justifications up the yin-yang. They get angry the moment anyone suggests their habit is bad for them & anyone around them. They react... well, like pretty much most of the posters on this thread. My folks were both smart, educated people who also happened to be alkies. I've heard all your crap excuses, rationalizations & arguments, and at the end of the day, you're still just a bunch of addicts, clinging to your junk. Your opinions are meaningless, as they're not your own anymore: it's the nicotine or heroin or meth or booze that's talking, and the biggest idiots are the ones who listen & take 'em seriously.
So what if someone wants to take away your junk. Cry me a river. The history of drug abuse shows that junkies will always get their junk, no matter how many hurdles society puts up, so quit yer bitchin'. However, if those hurdles prevent others from joining your self-pitying ranks, then so much the better. I don't care if you quit, just keep your pie-holes sucking on your junk so the rest of the world doesn't have to listen to your garbage, because that's the only thing you get out of junkies: garbage.
So what if someone wants to take away your junk. Cry me a river. The history of drug abuse shows that junkies will always get their junk, no matter how many hurdles society puts up, so quit yer bitchin'. However, if those hurdles prevent others from joining your self-pitying ranks, then so much the better. I don't care if you quit, just keep your pie-holes sucking on your junk so the rest of the world doesn't have to listen to your garbage, because that's the only thing you get out of junkies: garbage.
50
Hi Don,
I'm not a smoker, just educated and mostly rational. Living a long time isn't the point of life, necessarily. Avoiding risk is something you, Don, don't do on a daily basis. You can prove just about anything with the latest study.
I drink alcohol and smoke pot occasionally, and proudly. I'm a father and this doesn't bother me one bit, nor should it.
The anti-smoking hysteria exists for you (the self-righteous non-smoker) to get off on the latest issue where you can feel morally superior - you get indignant and you feel your life has a little more meaning because you righting wrongs of others. That's nice.
For you it's all about your morally superiority high. You'll follow that high to banning my daughter from being able to slide down the big slides at the playground, or taking down the high dives at the swimming pools, or whatever other issue it is that doesn't affect you too much that some journalist or lawyer decides is the next big thing.
Thanks for a worse America, Don (and friends)!
I'm not a smoker, just educated and mostly rational. Living a long time isn't the point of life, necessarily. Avoiding risk is something you, Don, don't do on a daily basis. You can prove just about anything with the latest study.
I drink alcohol and smoke pot occasionally, and proudly. I'm a father and this doesn't bother me one bit, nor should it.
The anti-smoking hysteria exists for you (the self-righteous non-smoker) to get off on the latest issue where you can feel morally superior - you get indignant and you feel your life has a little more meaning because you righting wrongs of others. That's nice.
For you it's all about your morally superiority high. You'll follow that high to banning my daughter from being able to slide down the big slides at the playground, or taking down the high dives at the swimming pools, or whatever other issue it is that doesn't affect you too much that some journalist or lawyer decides is the next big thing.
Thanks for a worse America, Don (and friends)!
51
Another excuse to discrimate against a silent portion of the country. It's about time we smokers started yelling from the mountain top that not all of your problems are due to me lighting up a smoke after having to deal with your ****.
So, non-smokers, do gooders and all you other junk sciene junkies bite my smoke filled butt and suck in some good old fashioned first, second and third hand smoke. If your real lucky I might even fart in your face while your doing it and then you could be sucking in fourth hand smoke too.
So, non-smokers, do gooders and all you other junk sciene junkies bite my smoke filled butt and suck in some good old fashioned first, second and third hand smoke. If your real lucky I might even fart in your face while your doing it and then you could be sucking in fourth hand smoke too.
52
Responsible parents buy products and furnish their homes for the sake of their childrens health. Doctors haven't linked all these "unexplained cancers" to smoking and everything else in this world because it's all dangerous. So if you want to smoke around YOUR kid, go ahead, your the one that has to deal with the health problems and God forbid death of your children. I'm keeping my kid away from you and all other man made garbage that they don't need.
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