Monday, January 5, 2009
City Rapid Response
Posted by Eli Sanders on Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 9:07 AM
Last night I walked through the sideways snow to Moe's, where about 25 notable voices in the local hip hop community were gathered in the back to discuss how they should respond to Saturday's shooting at Chop Suey. Jonah will have more about the shooting soon, and Dominic, who covered the second half of last night's meeting, has a lot to say about what was decided.
Me, I had to leave the meeting before decisions were officially made, so I only saw the process—which was off-the-record so that people could speak freely. Without revealing what was spoken, I will say that the scene was oddly familiar to someone who's spent the last few years immersed in political doings.
This caught me off guard. The last thing I expected last night at Moe's was an election-related flashback. But what I saw there in the back of the bar was, essentially, a downbeat, far more sincere, and decidedly more fashionable version of War Room, the 1992 documentary about Bill Clinton's rapid media response team (now part of the template for modern political-media strategy).
Really, I shouldn't have been so surprised. Now that everyone—from David Axelrod to your average member of 206 Zulu—is a media producer, everyone, naturally, is in a position to throw together an impromptu war room and start trying to shape a favorable media message. Attendees at last night's meeting brought laptops (one open to a Twitter feed), iPhones, digital cameras, and at least one digital video recorder. Ideas ranged all over the old- and new-media maps. The hip hop advocates knew a potential media shit-storm when they saw one, and they were not about to let it catch them off guard.
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1
Because the important thing here is hip hop's media image, not the lives that are being lost or the casual acceptance of gun violence.
2
Yo, we wiggers just be keepin' it real! With out dem shootin's, how's my records gonna sell homey?
Keepin' it with the 15 Ave crew, yo.
Keepin' it with the 15 Ave crew, yo.
3
@1 I hope Dominic communicates just how much grief there was shared among those 25 people last night over the violence and the loss of 29-E. The last descriptor I would use for how the group is dealing with the tragedy is "casual."
5
#1
these things were discussed in depth last night. these are our friends that are lying in the hospital bed, our fellow artists being laid to rest over some senseless violence. nobody is condoning this shit. especially the hip hop community. people need to know that.
these things were discussed in depth last night. these are our friends that are lying in the hospital bed, our fellow artists being laid to rest over some senseless violence. nobody is condoning this shit. especially the hip hop community. people need to know that.
6
How many people at the meeting were carrying guns? How many people at the meeting were willing to stand up and say "fuck you and your guns, get rid of them"? Or was it the usual parade of idiots going on about "protection" and "retaliation"?
9
It's hard to out-stereotype the comments on the other threads about this shooting, or that ridiculous 206proof.com thread. You don't think there's just a tiny hint of macho posturing in the hip hop scene?
10
@5 Thank you M Sea for standing up and representing the hip hop community on here.
I've been following your words, and you for one have a good head on your shoulders.
I truly hope that the meeting last night will make a difference. Words are just words. Intent is the hope of the future.
Ultimately all of this will be judged by actions and a new direction of never ever allowing guns to come into the music scene again.
Who knows how realistic that fantasy is. I certainly don't.
I do know that you will most certainly face repercussions as an industry for this senseless act of a few idiots. We as a society have to draw a line somewhere.
You may not control the actions of a few idiots, but what do you control? The answer is your image and your lyrics.
Society will judge you if you promise to change your image and your lyrics. Stop glorifying violence. Stop glorifying objectifying women. Stop trying to speak another special hip hop pseudo language.
This should be a huge wakeup call. It is a game changing, culture changing wakeup call. Nothing less than total and complete change to the previous culture norms will suffice.
Unless you as a group of "leaders" of the hip hop crowd in Washington are willing to lead by example, then this is all talk.
Peace.
Reality Check out.
I've been following your words, and you for one have a good head on your shoulders.
I truly hope that the meeting last night will make a difference. Words are just words. Intent is the hope of the future.
Ultimately all of this will be judged by actions and a new direction of never ever allowing guns to come into the music scene again.
Who knows how realistic that fantasy is. I certainly don't.
I do know that you will most certainly face repercussions as an industry for this senseless act of a few idiots. We as a society have to draw a line somewhere.
You may not control the actions of a few idiots, but what do you control? The answer is your image and your lyrics.
Society will judge you if you promise to change your image and your lyrics. Stop glorifying violence. Stop glorifying objectifying women. Stop trying to speak another special hip hop pseudo language.
This should be a huge wakeup call. It is a game changing, culture changing wakeup call. Nothing less than total and complete change to the previous culture norms will suffice.
Unless you as a group of "leaders" of the hip hop crowd in Washington are willing to lead by example, then this is all talk.
Peace.
Reality Check out.
11
Its hard to not sound like an ignorant prick when you're making stereotypes about people you don't know and events you clearly have no knowledge about.
Perhaps if you came to the meeting last night you would have even the slightest grasp on the situation. but you didnt, and you don't. so keep speaking from the depths of your own asshole.
Perhaps if you came to the meeting last night you would have even the slightest grasp on the situation. but you didnt, and you don't. so keep speaking from the depths of your own asshole.
12
the question that must be asked is this: if you're a club, bar, etc. etc. how much would it take to host a hip hop night given the frequency of incidents?
14
TheAgenda:
Fnarf is one of the most brilliant and socially acute writers I've ever "followed".
Your accusation drips with the defensiveness of a child caught for his deeds.
Fnarf is one of the most brilliant and socially acute writers I've ever "followed".
Your accusation drips with the defensiveness of a child caught for his deeds.
15
Frequency of Incidents?
People are missing the fact that there are hip hop events going on every other day in this city. Every week. every month. Every year. This is an isolated incident that had everything to do with the shooter, so please don't blame hip hop.
I was there saturday night. my friends were there. people i know died there. i will still continue to go to shows there. they would want it that way. People should still feel safe to come out to local shows. There are some very good shows going down this month and if everyone is as serious about moving forward from this in a progressive manner, showing up and supporting the community is the first step.
get involved.
People are missing the fact that there are hip hop events going on every other day in this city. Every week. every month. Every year. This is an isolated incident that had everything to do with the shooter, so please don't blame hip hop.
I was there saturday night. my friends were there. people i know died there. i will still continue to go to shows there. they would want it that way. People should still feel safe to come out to local shows. There are some very good shows going down this month and if everyone is as serious about moving forward from this in a progressive manner, showing up and supporting the community is the first step.
get involved.
16
Great post!
Thanks for your thoughtful and intelligent words. I hope the Hip Hop community is listening but I some how seem to doubt that they see it as a problem that THEY created through their violent music. The problem resides in that young people seem to be eating this hip hop culture up right now.
Society will judge you if you promise to change your image and your lyrics. Stop glorifying violence. Stop glorifying objectifying women. Stop trying to speak another special hip hop pseudo language.
This should be a huge wakeup call. It is a game changing, culture changing wakeup call. Nothing less than total and complete change to the previous culture norms will suffice.
Great post!
Thanks for your thoughtful and intelligent words. I hope the Hip Hop community is listening but I some how seem to doubt that they see it as a problem that THEY created through their violent music. The problem resides in that young people seem to be eating this hip hop culture up right now.
18
This doesn't need to get personal.
Fnarf, I think you would be surprised at some of the wise statements that came from the meeting last night, macho posturing or no.
Fnarf, I think you would be surprised at some of the wise statements that came from the meeting last night, macho posturing or no.
22
fnarf- and others:
first and foremost is our concern for the victims and their families. these are people that some us love, and all of us know and have broke bread with- not the subhumans worthy of contempt that the slog commenter community seems to write them off as. 3 people- 3 artists- got shot, and one is dead- but to many they're just not worth the sympathy that Amanda Knox got around these parts. it's their fault! let em shoot each other!
i think it's fair to note that you dont know how our convo went last night. i also think it's funny that you want to accuse our meeting to try to figure out solutions of some sort of crass spin control image-defense, then immediately, well, start going in on hiphop's image.
dude, nobody at that meeting was carrying a gun. wtf in the holy hell is wrong with you? how little could you possibly know about seattle hiphop artists to really think we go around toting pistols? condemn gun violence? that's like prime directive #1 of seattle hiphop. man, i don't know what lil wayne video you think is going on outside your home.
newsflash: nobody condones violence. no, not even us, not even a little bit. this might surprise the lot of you who seem to think all hiphoppers are subhuman. some of us spend a great part of our lives trying to teach youth- in the schools, in community centers- that they don't need to resort to violence to solve their problems. that they can redirect their energy into positivity, and creation, an art- such as hiphop music.
it's all 'more of the same' to you- but what you probably don't get is that this sort of violence doesn't really happen @ live hiphop shows. i realize we're all the same to you, but the violence you tend to hear about- the shit that plagues Top 40 club/dance nights- is not what happens at live hiphop shows, until now. what happened at chop suey is truly, deeply horrifyng- and could have happened to any of us- so we felt we needed to take action.
i'd like to thank eli & dominic for showing out last night.
More...
first and foremost is our concern for the victims and their families. these are people that some us love, and all of us know and have broke bread with- not the subhumans worthy of contempt that the slog commenter community seems to write them off as. 3 people- 3 artists- got shot, and one is dead- but to many they're just not worth the sympathy that Amanda Knox got around these parts. it's their fault! let em shoot each other!
i think it's fair to note that you dont know how our convo went last night. i also think it's funny that you want to accuse our meeting to try to figure out solutions of some sort of crass spin control image-defense, then immediately, well, start going in on hiphop's image.
dude, nobody at that meeting was carrying a gun. wtf in the holy hell is wrong with you? how little could you possibly know about seattle hiphop artists to really think we go around toting pistols? condemn gun violence? that's like prime directive #1 of seattle hiphop. man, i don't know what lil wayne video you think is going on outside your home.
newsflash: nobody condones violence. no, not even us, not even a little bit. this might surprise the lot of you who seem to think all hiphoppers are subhuman. some of us spend a great part of our lives trying to teach youth- in the schools, in community centers- that they don't need to resort to violence to solve their problems. that they can redirect their energy into positivity, and creation, an art- such as hiphop music.
it's all 'more of the same' to you- but what you probably don't get is that this sort of violence doesn't really happen @ live hiphop shows. i realize we're all the same to you, but the violence you tend to hear about- the shit that plagues Top 40 club/dance nights- is not what happens at live hiphop shows, until now. what happened at chop suey is truly, deeply horrifyng- and could have happened to any of us- so we felt we needed to take action.
i'd like to thank eli & dominic for showing out last night.
24
Eli,
Thank you for you presence last night. My concern was that folks should be able to talk openly about our pain and our friends without holding back.
I appreciate you for letting that happen and being a quiet observer.
Thank you for you presence last night. My concern was that folks should be able to talk openly about our pain and our friends without holding back.
I appreciate you for letting that happen and being a quiet observer.
25
Based on what you (m sea, lar, Katelyn) are saying, it seems like Eli saying that you all got together to "shape a favorable media message" is what is actually misleading.
Fnarf doesn't know the specifics of the meeting, it's true. BUT, the way Eli is phrasing it (as well as referencing "The War Room") makes it sound like all you were there for was spin control.
C'mon, Mr. Sanders, this story is already big enough. No need to sensationalize.
Fnarf doesn't know the specifics of the meeting, it's true. BUT, the way Eli is phrasing it (as well as referencing "The War Room") makes it sound like all you were there for was spin control.
C'mon, Mr. Sanders, this story is already big enough. No need to sensationalize.
26
I freely admit that I am ignorant of what goes on in the hip hop community. But it is painfully obvious that hip hop's obsession with "street reality" does, in fact, attract violence. Many, many rappers idealize gangsters and even name themselves after them -- what do you think is going on with "Fatal Lucciauno" or "Young Soprano"? And it is impossible to deny that street gangster shitheads are powerfully attracted to hip hop; it's their music, whether the performers are a part of the actual gang world or not. Whether hip hop is openly participating in that world or not, it is undeniably flirting with it, reflecting its values and actions. And when you flirt with gun-toting shitheads, you ARE a part of that.
That's what I, and a lot of other "sheltered" white people have a problem with. The music isn't attractive to me, nor should it be -- I'm old and boring. But lots of music scenes are unattractive to me -- most of them, I would guess. But emo kids or whatever don't tend to let bullets fly; hip hop kids sometimes do. That makes hip hop a public safety concern in a way that other scenes aren't.
What I would say to you is, if you want to address the concerns of the wider community, you need to address this fact. We're not buying the old argument of "we're just addressing the reality of the street, man" anymore. If you can look at your scene and truthfully answer the question "what is it about what we're doing that attracts scumbags with weapons?" and "what are we going to do about that?", then maybe we'll believe you're trying to find an answer and not just another excuse.
Personally, from what little I know of your scene, it is fatally infected with macho posturing, fronting, insults, gang worship, anti-women and anti-gay attitudes, and at its core a fundamental desire to be hard and tough and mean -- to live up to a cartoon reality of street attitudes that are at odds with civilization. I don't know what it is that makes a person decide that the best course of action is to fire a gun into a crowd of people, but I know what attitudes are likely to draw people in that direction. It's all over nearly every post on 206proof.com. Does that really speak for your community?
More...
That's what I, and a lot of other "sheltered" white people have a problem with. The music isn't attractive to me, nor should it be -- I'm old and boring. But lots of music scenes are unattractive to me -- most of them, I would guess. But emo kids or whatever don't tend to let bullets fly; hip hop kids sometimes do. That makes hip hop a public safety concern in a way that other scenes aren't.
What I would say to you is, if you want to address the concerns of the wider community, you need to address this fact. We're not buying the old argument of "we're just addressing the reality of the street, man" anymore. If you can look at your scene and truthfully answer the question "what is it about what we're doing that attracts scumbags with weapons?" and "what are we going to do about that?", then maybe we'll believe you're trying to find an answer and not just another excuse.
Personally, from what little I know of your scene, it is fatally infected with macho posturing, fronting, insults, gang worship, anti-women and anti-gay attitudes, and at its core a fundamental desire to be hard and tough and mean -- to live up to a cartoon reality of street attitudes that are at odds with civilization. I don't know what it is that makes a person decide that the best course of action is to fire a gun into a crowd of people, but I know what attitudes are likely to draw people in that direction. It's all over nearly every post on 206proof.com. Does that really speak for your community?
27
M Sea did you read my post @10?
Are you (and the rest of the hip hop leaders at the meeting last night) willing to change your culture by advocating publically and STRONGLY that you MUST be willing to change your lyrics and how your industry presents itsself?
Are you truly willing to make that statement at a press conference?
You aren't understanding the gravity of this issue if you simply think you will continue business as usual and that folks should solve the problem by coming out to listen to more concerts with the same image, the same lyrics, the same culture.
Are you TRULY willing to step forward with your others and assume some leadership that takes obvious serious actions to make that change?
What say you?
You do understand that if all you do is state some words, have a few memorials, produce a memorial album, and all the other same shit you normally do, that EVERYONE will consider that a failure.
We are waiting to see you publically step up and announce the changes, then the public will watch and see the entire industry's actions over the course of the next year.
Criteria to will work:
1. Change your lyrics. Never again encourage violence or hatred towards the police, other lyricists, or anything gang/area related.
2. Change your glorification and objectification of things mentioned in post #10.
3. Completely change your image and get rid of the bullshit dress, behavior, and hiphop attitude.
4. Quit glorifying money, cars, houses, gangsta lifestyle.
You see MSea... the problem your hiphop industry is having is an image problem. To adults they see you as the source of the problem in society today. Since you glorify everything mentioned avove, it essentially makes you responsible for putting ideas into youngster's impressionable minds.
To kids, your music is an issue because of just that. Since you do promote those types of things, and kids idolize and want to behave like they think you are behaving based on your words and videos, you essentially are responsible for creating a generation of degenerates. You may not like that fact, but unfortunately it is true. Since you are a public entity, your words and actions carry extra meaning. When your words and actions are promoted by recording labels, young impressionable kids not knowing any better, begin to think that what you advocate is "normal".
Therefore you carry a heavy burden and responsiblity to be a good citizen for us all.
The question is... are you willing to stand up and be that good citizen?
Are you?
More...
Are you (and the rest of the hip hop leaders at the meeting last night) willing to change your culture by advocating publically and STRONGLY that you MUST be willing to change your lyrics and how your industry presents itsself?
Are you truly willing to make that statement at a press conference?
You aren't understanding the gravity of this issue if you simply think you will continue business as usual and that folks should solve the problem by coming out to listen to more concerts with the same image, the same lyrics, the same culture.
Are you TRULY willing to step forward with your others and assume some leadership that takes obvious serious actions to make that change?
What say you?
You do understand that if all you do is state some words, have a few memorials, produce a memorial album, and all the other same shit you normally do, that EVERYONE will consider that a failure.
We are waiting to see you publically step up and announce the changes, then the public will watch and see the entire industry's actions over the course of the next year.
Criteria to will work:
1. Change your lyrics. Never again encourage violence or hatred towards the police, other lyricists, or anything gang/area related.
2. Change your glorification and objectification of things mentioned in post #10.
3. Completely change your image and get rid of the bullshit dress, behavior, and hiphop attitude.
4. Quit glorifying money, cars, houses, gangsta lifestyle.
You see MSea... the problem your hiphop industry is having is an image problem. To adults they see you as the source of the problem in society today. Since you glorify everything mentioned avove, it essentially makes you responsible for putting ideas into youngster's impressionable minds.
To kids, your music is an issue because of just that. Since you do promote those types of things, and kids idolize and want to behave like they think you are behaving based on your words and videos, you essentially are responsible for creating a generation of degenerates. You may not like that fact, but unfortunately it is true. Since you are a public entity, your words and actions carry extra meaning. When your words and actions are promoted by recording labels, young impressionable kids not knowing any better, begin to think that what you advocate is "normal".
Therefore you carry a heavy burden and responsiblity to be a good citizen for us all.
The question is... are you willing to stand up and be that good citizen?
Are you?
29
"get involved."
Actually, staying home and watching Lawrence Welk might be a smarter and a better way to not to have one of those stupid RIP t-shirts made in your honor.
Actually, staying home and watching Lawrence Welk might be a smarter and a better way to not to have one of those stupid RIP t-shirts made in your honor.
30
Those of you not into the local live hip hop scene - please be aware that the vast majority of local hip hop lyrics and shows are violence free. And there is a big difference between live hip hop and the nightclubs spinning top 40 mixed with hip hop. Two very different scenes. At local live hip hop shows there is very little to no violence until Saturday.
All that said, the local scene needs to pull their heads out and differentiate between the decent shows that happen often and shows put on by certain promoters with certain artists. The artists at the show in question DO often carry guns and try to act "hard" and "street" - and they are really little punks playing dress up. The If the promoters, club owners and artists won't make the distinction and stop doing shows and letting shows happen that promote and glorify pho-gangster violence, then the whole scene will suffer. I wonder if the no thug artists and promoters will have the balls to call out the wanna-be gangsters and separate themselves from them.
All that said, the local scene needs to pull their heads out and differentiate between the decent shows that happen often and shows put on by certain promoters with certain artists. The artists at the show in question DO often carry guns and try to act "hard" and "street" - and they are really little punks playing dress up. The If the promoters, club owners and artists won't make the distinction and stop doing shows and letting shows happen that promote and glorify pho-gangster violence, then the whole scene will suffer. I wonder if the no thug artists and promoters will have the balls to call out the wanna-be gangsters and separate themselves from them.
31
"vast majority of local hip hop lyrics and shows are violence free."
Wow, what an accomplishment. You want a medal for just having an occasional shooting then? Say, less than 4 street shootings a year and the Seattle Hip-hop community gets a parade in its honor? Hey, why not set your bar even lower?
Wow, what an accomplishment. You want a medal for just having an occasional shooting then? Say, less than 4 street shootings a year and the Seattle Hip-hop community gets a parade in its honor? Hey, why not set your bar even lower?
32
Reality Check,
i encourage you to check out my music http://myspace.com/mseamp3 and point out to me where in any of the tracks posted i promote any of this. And feel free to tell me how I am creating a generation of degenerates. i view music as the ultimate form of free expression. everyones expression is going to be different. but don't classify me into something i'm not.
I will agree with you that the glorification of street life is a very big issue in hip hop. But once again you're missing the point. There are a grip of hip hop shows that go down in this city every month that have nothing to do with that glorification. I can tell you that the draw for the chop suey show was nowhere near that of the One Be Lo show the night previous at Nectar. and nothing happened there. meanwhile people are quick to put the community on blast for an isolated incident. which is especially ironic because most of the people at the meeting last night that NONE of you attended, gathered there to ensure the safety and security of YOU THE PEOPLE at future events and to prevent incidents like this from happening.
Just because you aren't there to see it happening doesn't mean its not happening. My question to you would be what are YOU doing?
i encourage you to check out my music http://myspace.com/mseamp3 and point out to me where in any of the tracks posted i promote any of this. And feel free to tell me how I am creating a generation of degenerates. i view music as the ultimate form of free expression. everyones expression is going to be different. but don't classify me into something i'm not.
I will agree with you that the glorification of street life is a very big issue in hip hop. But once again you're missing the point. There are a grip of hip hop shows that go down in this city every month that have nothing to do with that glorification. I can tell you that the draw for the chop suey show was nowhere near that of the One Be Lo show the night previous at Nectar. and nothing happened there. meanwhile people are quick to put the community on blast for an isolated incident. which is especially ironic because most of the people at the meeting last night that NONE of you attended, gathered there to ensure the safety and security of YOU THE PEOPLE at future events and to prevent incidents like this from happening.
Just because you aren't there to see it happening doesn't mean its not happening. My question to you would be what are YOU doing?
33
The M Sea, glad to see you using another rapper's death to promote yourself. Thi$ mu$t be $ome of tho$e great hip-hop value$?
Keeping it real bro'?
Peace Out...
Keeping it real bro'?
Peace Out...
35
Right on my wigga'! M Sea is just keepin' it real, tryin' sell some records here on the slog, right on your bro's warm corpse.
BTW. Your rap? It sucks. Sounds like air leaking from a car tire.
BTW. Your rap? It sucks. Sounds like air leaking from a car tire.
36
fnarf (and others), 206proof is a forum for seattle hiphop, and it's full of shit-talk, as are all message boards. i dont think that all the electronic scene's dialoue sounds just like the boards @ nwtekno, or that the punk scene in town sounds like the shit talked on nwhardcore. but when i look at their message boards, i take it for granted that i, as an outsider, don't have the history or the insight to immediately understand their particular brand of shit-talk. and as tough as it is, i even have to remind myself that not all seattle talks like the people that post on the slog, that this is not really the spirit of the city i love. i hope. dear lord, i hope.
i challenge you to look at the lyrics of this city's foremost hiphop artists and try to figure out the content yourself. work from there.
but until you know what you're talking about, i could care less about your litmus tests, witch floats, or limbo bars of what is going to make our community acceptable to you. you don't have a clue what we're about, and you don't care when we die, so honestly i don't care about too much about clarifying this to your satisfaction.
i do care about the safety of people that are a part of this scene, the artists and fans. i do care about the people that run and book these clubs, and the people that run this city, and my friends and family. so i'll address my concerns to them.
i challenge you to look at the lyrics of this city's foremost hiphop artists and try to figure out the content yourself. work from there.
but until you know what you're talking about, i could care less about your litmus tests, witch floats, or limbo bars of what is going to make our community acceptable to you. you don't have a clue what we're about, and you don't care when we die, so honestly i don't care about too much about clarifying this to your satisfaction.
i do care about the safety of people that are a part of this scene, the artists and fans. i do care about the people that run and book these clubs, and the people that run this city, and my friends and family. so i'll address my concerns to them.
38
@ 33. you're a real piece of work. nice try...trying to flip on M Sea like he's some degenerate for trying to promote his work at the expense of a deceased YOUNG MAN when he's clearly using his music as an example to demonstrate that it's not all 'bitches/hos/guns/kill'. way to instigate there, troll.
39
Fnarf, like many other regulars on this board, love to post and speculate about shit they know nothing about.
41
"he's some degenerate for trying to promote his work at the expense of a deceased YOUNG MAN"
No, it's a just a happy coincidence his bro's body's not yet cold and he's pushing his cRap here.
No, it's a just a happy coincidence his bro's body's not yet cold and he's pushing his cRap here.
42
@28 I think the way Eli wrote the post did in fact sensationalize your meeting. My first impression, without reading any of the comments from you or others, was "OK, according to Eli's report these guys got together at Moe Bar to do media damage control". It was only after reading your comments that a fuller picture of what was discussed came into view.
Re-read the post. He directly likens what you did last night to one of the most notorious political spin machines of recent history. That is sensationalism, pure and simple.
Re-read the post. He directly likens what you did last night to one of the most notorious political spin machines of recent history. That is sensationalism, pure and simple.
43
Mind you, I do admire M Sea's capitalist urges!
Will he be at the funeral selling his latest album "Thank god for the occasional dead wigger or we'd have no street cred! Yo!".
Will he be at the funeral selling his latest album "Thank god for the occasional dead wigger or we'd have no street cred! Yo!".
44
Hernandez@42: I think it's less sensationalism and simply more Eli Sanders myopia. Laptops at a community meeting... who would've thought?
46
Homey - you're nothing more then a troll looking to get a reaction. Lol @ your confusion of who the real degenerate is.
47
"In the wild west the people of the community would handle this bull shit"
"instead of just stepping over the body like I usually would, I saw it was my guy, and he was alone so I stayed with him"
"Do like me....buy a bullet proof vest, some guns"
"It's human nature to kill. I don't agree with it, but that's the way it is. I don't want to hurt nobody, but if somebody tries to hurt me, then I'm not only going to defend myself, I'm going to retaliate"
"instead of just stepping over the body like I usually would, I saw it was my guy, and he was alone so I stayed with him"
"Do like me....buy a bullet proof vest, some guns"
"It's human nature to kill. I don't agree with it, but that's the way it is. I don't want to hurt nobody, but if somebody tries to hurt me, then I'm not only going to defend myself, I'm going to retaliate"
48
fnarf, should i start quoting some of the genius comments made on the original shooting thread?
whatever. keep scoring those buckets, slog celebrity.
whatever. keep scoring those buckets, slog celebrity.
49
@44 Ah, point taken. I suppose you're probably right.
@45 and there would be pictures of naked women involved.
@45 and there would be pictures of naked women involved.
50
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We'd rather not moderate your comments, but off-topic, gratuitously inflammatory, threatening, or otherwise inappropriate remarks may be removed, and repeat offenders may be banned from commenting. We never censor comments based on ideology. Thanks to all who add to the conversation.
51
What's with all this "you don't understand!" bullshit?
Just because we don't know all of the songs you do we are somehow blind? That we have somehow never intersected your culture which, quite honestly, is more pervasive than you're aware of (or are simply denying handily to ignore TONS of junk hip hop and rap put out there)?
Ohhhh, right. We just don't understand.
No, we do.
At one time I was way ups into hip hop and know there is an intellectual side to it, but it's a very small fraction of it.
It is this small fraction you are now trying to feign to when the shooting itself is symptomatic and characteristic of part of the overall picture and landscape that the whole lifestyle creates.
Or, that shit is whack yo.
Just because we don't know all of the songs you do we are somehow blind? That we have somehow never intersected your culture which, quite honestly, is more pervasive than you're aware of (or are simply denying handily to ignore TONS of junk hip hop and rap put out there)?
Ohhhh, right. We just don't understand.
No, we do.
At one time I was way ups into hip hop and know there is an intellectual side to it, but it's a very small fraction of it.
It is this small fraction you are now trying to feign to when the shooting itself is symptomatic and characteristic of part of the overall picture and landscape that the whole lifestyle creates.
Or, that shit is whack yo.
52
That's MC Troll to you wigga'!
I'm still waiting for M Sea to tell ME how I can make mo' money off his dead friend's corpse...he's shown a good lead, posting a link to his musak, but what's left for the rest of us?
Goofy R.I.P. 29-E t-shirts? Maybe some washable 29-E R.I.P. tatts the Cap Hill Wigga crews can slap on their shoulders? Or R.I.P. 29-E soap on a rope?
Can't he share the secret of his success?
I'm still waiting for M Sea to tell ME how I can make mo' money off his dead friend's corpse...he's shown a good lead, posting a link to his musak, but what's left for the rest of us?
Goofy R.I.P. 29-E t-shirts? Maybe some washable 29-E R.I.P. tatts the Cap Hill Wigga crews can slap on their shoulders? Or R.I.P. 29-E soap on a rope?
Can't he share the secret of his success?
53
fnarf this is what i'm talking about. you're quoting THE INTERNET to make generalizations about something you admitted you don't understand.
why don't you quote some of the other statements on that thread? the ones where we organized the meeting itself? the ones about how this shit needs to stop? the prayers and condolences for our fellow artists, our friends, our family?
why don't you quote some of the other statements on that thread? the ones where we organized the meeting itself? the ones about how this shit needs to stop? the prayers and condolences for our fellow artists, our friends, our family?
54
yes non.
you bought 'paul's boutique' and just loved 'nation of millions'. but then as you got older, i dunno, it just got so ugly. not like dj shadow. i know you got it dialed.
you bought 'paul's boutique' and just loved 'nation of millions'. but then as you got older, i dunno, it just got so ugly. not like dj shadow. i know you got it dialed.
56
#52 i have no interest in biting on your frequent attempts to stir shit up. you know as well as i do i posted that link to make an example in response to a previous post. nothing more. find something better to do. go outside.
59
yeah - 55 because The fucking Stranger didn't post personal addresses or anything 3 months ago.
Hypocrites.
Hypocrites.
60
"you know as well as i do i posted that link to make an example in response to a previous post."
Do I, M Sea? Do you? I thought hip-hop was the art of self promotion? Why are you now embarrassed to say that's what you did?
If I linked to rap that does glorify violence, guns, misogyny, homophobia etc. would that be all that would be needed to prove you're wrong? Wow, if only life we're that simple.
Come on, man up, you want the world to hear your valuable contribution even if it sounds like air wizzing out of a balloon.
And why don't your answers rhyme to a beat?
Do I, M Sea? Do you? I thought hip-hop was the art of self promotion? Why are you now embarrassed to say that's what you did?
If I linked to rap that does glorify violence, guns, misogyny, homophobia etc. would that be all that would be needed to prove you're wrong? Wow, if only life we're that simple.
Come on, man up, you want the world to hear your valuable contribution even if it sounds like air wizzing out of a balloon.
And why don't your answers rhyme to a beat?
61
i get paid by the stranger every week to use words, non. i'm not bad at it. unlike you i dont herb myself in their comments sections for free.
my point is- i get it. "get off my lawn". you listened to public enemy in the 80's so now you think me, my people, and the people who got shot and killed the other night need to stand up in front of the whole class and swear that we'll never make offensive rap music again.
the fact that this city's hiphop scene is by majority a refutation of all the values pumped by contemporary commercial rap is lost on you. somebody got shot, so now we all look like lil' wayne and flo rida.
my point is- i get it. "get off my lawn". you listened to public enemy in the 80's so now you think me, my people, and the people who got shot and killed the other night need to stand up in front of the whole class and swear that we'll never make offensive rap music again.
the fact that this city's hiphop scene is by majority a refutation of all the values pumped by contemporary commercial rap is lost on you. somebody got shot, so now we all look like lil' wayne and flo rida.
62
You don't know. You aren't involved in anything remotely related to hip hop in Seattle or otherwise. To comment on it is therefore defined by your ignorance. Knee-jerk self-centered reactions to the superficial details of an incident which you have no real information or understanding of is the definition of assumption. Broad, general statements about a group of people you only have passing familiarity with is the definition of prejudice. If you want something to change then step up, educate yourself, and get involved with community efforts to address the actual foundation of incidents like this.
64
I love how white people say wigger and then when you ask them "whats it stand for?"
still can't say the N word.
I also love how it is savage to get shot at a concert yet dressing up in world war two uniforms and opening fire at the police is refined.
fnarf,
i love how you had to go deep into at least page 5 or 6 (skimming over the dozens of prayers for the families, offers to help, and up to the minute reports from the hospital of the victim) to find those quotes and put them out of context.
I'm sure you have the respect of your emo brethren here on this blog and your years of life in the confined halls of your university for that degree in the aquatic mating habits of crabs makes you feel smart and supierior but really all your post have been nothing more then lame stereotyped quotes and fails at logic.
still can't say the N word.
I also love how it is savage to get shot at a concert yet dressing up in world war two uniforms and opening fire at the police is refined.
fnarf,
i love how you had to go deep into at least page 5 or 6 (skimming over the dozens of prayers for the families, offers to help, and up to the minute reports from the hospital of the victim) to find those quotes and put them out of context.
I'm sure you have the respect of your emo brethren here on this blog and your years of life in the confined halls of your university for that degree in the aquatic mating habits of crabs makes you feel smart and supierior but really all your post have been nothing more then lame stereotyped quotes and fails at logic.
65
"superficial details of an incident"
You mean a murder right?
Be careful, you're living up to your stereotype.
You mean a murder right?
Be careful, you're living up to your stereotype.
66
@61, my point is, that's YOUR problem, not mine, and you need to own it. The reasons people have this "incorrect" view of your scene are understandable and legitimate. Change it if you can. That's your call, not mine. So far all I'm hearing is "you don't understand, we're all about peace and love, we're not violent". But why the violence, then? If you're expecting boring middle-aged white people to make close distinctions between different kinds of rap, you're going to lose.
67
"I also love how it is savage to get shot at a concert yet dressing up in world war two uniforms and opening fire at the police is refined."
No, both are equally idiotic.
Thanks for playing!
No, both are equally idiotic.
Thanks for playing!
69
the violence in hip hop is a reflection of the lived violence in our communities....
to stop the violence, let's improve our communities... for years our money has been used to prop up corporations and when it all crashed down, the first victim are social services.
the uptick in violence is directly related to the amount of war, exploitation and lack of meaningful social services.
middle aged white people should be concerned cuz this is a reflection of society, not the music that speaks about it.
to stop the violence, let's improve our communities... for years our money has been used to prop up corporations and when it all crashed down, the first victim are social services.
the uptick in violence is directly related to the amount of war, exploitation and lack of meaningful social services.
middle aged white people should be concerned cuz this is a reflection of society, not the music that speaks about it.
70
""superficial details of an incident"
You mean a murder right?
Be careful, you're living up to your stereotype."
Nice intentional misinterpretation. You don't know my stereotype. Are you on here just to be an ass and get a reaction? Nevermind, I'm sure you're next post will prove you are.
You mean a murder right?
Be careful, you're living up to your stereotype."
Nice intentional misinterpretation. You don't know my stereotype. Are you on here just to be an ass and get a reaction? Nevermind, I'm sure you're next post will prove you are.
71
fnarf, i know we need to own it. thanks boss. thats what this slog post was all about.
and you mean boring middle-aged white people are not going to get where i'm coming from? boy is my freakin mind blown.
and you mean boring middle-aged white people are not going to get where i'm coming from? boy is my freakin mind blown.
72
"let's improve our communities... for years our money has been used to prop up corporations and when it all crashed down, the first victim are social services."
So this is what it's all about:
Gimme yo' money!
Explain to me how that's any different from a mugging?
So this is what it's all about:
Gimme yo' money!
Explain to me how that's any different from a mugging?
73
If if it's not your problem then why the fuck are you on here trying to rile up people half your age, that you couldn't give a fuck about, at a time when they are mourning the loss of friends to something they had no control of? 1 person decided to do something really fucking stupid and people were killed. You think it's either funny or appropriate to act like this? You don't, I hope not at least.
Christ, do you have sort of dignity?
Christ, do you have sort of dignity?
74
HipHop is about community values, mutual respect and peace in exactly the same way that Hamas is about community values, mutual respect and peace.
Owning the violence inherent in your scene is the very first thing that must be done in order to stop it.
Owning the violence inherent in your scene is the very first thing that must be done in order to stop it.
75
if the police want to arrest someone for violence at hip hop shows (which is rare), their investigation should lead to mayor nickels, gov gregiore and prez bush...
democrats and republicans have underfunded our schools, hospitals and other social services for years while giving out tax breaks to the rich.
hip hop speaks about this economic and social violence. many of hip hop artists have lived through this hell. their music reflects their lives and conditions that they grew up in, not created.
hip hop is a reflection of society, not the root of its ills....
democrats and republicans have underfunded our schools, hospitals and other social services for years while giving out tax breaks to the rich.
hip hop speaks about this economic and social violence. many of hip hop artists have lived through this hell. their music reflects their lives and conditions that they grew up in, not created.
hip hop is a reflection of society, not the root of its ills....
76
it took like 300 comments (if you count the other Slog post) before someone brought it up. but yes...if you don't like the music then be the change you want to see. you want people to stop rapping about violence and LIVING violence? then do something to make their lives less violent. people write about and live what they know. john mayer writes about growing up in 1985 and how good it was to be a kid because that's what he lived. Lil Wayne writes about selling drugs and murder when he was a kid because that was his environment.
before you open your mouth to bash, shit talk and complain do some critical thinking. that energy waste could be directed to do something to actually help.
before you open your mouth to bash, shit talk and complain do some critical thinking. that energy waste could be directed to do something to actually help.
77
"the loss of friends to something they had no control of"
No control of? Go to see some jazz at Dimitriou's Jazz Alley instead. THat's what I call taking control of your life and reducing the chances of havin' a homey bust a cap in your a**.
If you play with fire, don't whine to me when you get burned.
Besides, doesn't this give Seattle wigga's some street cred now?
No control of? Go to see some jazz at Dimitriou's Jazz Alley instead. THat's what I call taking control of your life and reducing the chances of havin' a homey bust a cap in your a**.
If you play with fire, don't whine to me when you get burned.
Besides, doesn't this give Seattle wigga's some street cred now?
79
So "Young Soprano" is just reflecting his society, not celebrating or glorifying gangs or crime, right? Y'all have no earthly idea why a gunman would be interested in his scene, right?
80
"democrats and republicans have underfunded our schools, hospitals and other social services for years while giving out tax breaks to the rich."
Gimme yo' money, motherf******!
Funny how immigrants can come to this country with no money, no skills, no language and make it without feeling the need to blame the rich for their stupidity. My old Somali neighbors in the CD used to think you people were friggin' idiots too.
Gimme yo' money, motherf******!
Funny how immigrants can come to this country with no money, no skills, no language and make it without feeling the need to blame the rich for their stupidity. My old Somali neighbors in the CD used to think you people were friggin' idiots too.
81
sorry for the long rant:
People on the slog have to choose: do you believe that the music itself causes the problem or does the music attract a group of people that you believe to be the problem. I don’t believe that anyone actually thinks that hip hop music causes violence, if so then there would random acts of violence all day caused by KUBE and other radio stations around the world, but if you believe that hip hop music attracts “the problem” and thus has more violence at hip hop events (vs. rock n roll), then the issue is not with hip hop events, but with “[place generic stereotype one might see at a hip hop show, except for those likely to be seen at ML events]" solution has to be one that stops the root of “the problem”. The same way that we don’t believe that shutting down public parks will solve homelessness because it tends to be a place for the homeless to gather, you can’t believe that shutting down hip hop events will solve “the problem”.
On top of that, the belief then that a form of art (whether you like it or not and let's not start that good old "hip hop isn't art discussion") should be censored or not allowed to be publiclly expressed is not one I'm sure loyal slog readers and commenters would dare condoning.
What seems to be evident is that when an act of violence occurs in an area that normally does not have it, issues not normally discussed begin to be. These conversations tend to begin with misplaced blame and anger because it is the easiest way to deal with tragedy; to compartmentalize the issue. The issues involved here can’t be adequately explained in two sentences on the slog.
People on the slog have to choose: do you believe that the music itself causes the problem or does the music attract a group of people that you believe to be the problem. I don’t believe that anyone actually thinks that hip hop music causes violence, if so then there would random acts of violence all day caused by KUBE and other radio stations around the world, but if you believe that hip hop music attracts “the problem” and thus has more violence at hip hop events (vs. rock n roll), then the issue is not with hip hop events, but with “[place generic stereotype one might see at a hip hop show, except for those likely to be seen at ML events]" solution has to be one that stops the root of “the problem”. The same way that we don’t believe that shutting down public parks will solve homelessness because it tends to be a place for the homeless to gather, you can’t believe that shutting down hip hop events will solve “the problem”.
On top of that, the belief then that a form of art (whether you like it or not and let's not start that good old "hip hop isn't art discussion") should be censored or not allowed to be publiclly expressed is not one I'm sure loyal slog readers and commenters would dare condoning.
What seems to be evident is that when an act of violence occurs in an area that normally does not have it, issues not normally discussed begin to be. These conversations tend to begin with misplaced blame and anger because it is the easiest way to deal with tragedy; to compartmentalize the issue. The issues involved here can’t be adequately explained in two sentences on the slog.
82
easy tip for people now scared to go to a hippity hop show: look at the names of the artists. If you can't see the difference between a group named "the Red Professors" and a group with the name "Juvenile Homicide Comitter" you should just stay at home.
Not that you would likely be killed at either show, but their is an increased risk at the latter? ya feel me? Now call that young indie rock/ hippity hop tattooed girl you have been wanting to impress, grab a martini and sit in the back of the club. DO NOT i repeat DO NOT make eye contact with any of the gangbangers in the club, because you are the only one who isn't down and they can smell it on you.
Not that you would likely be killed at either show, but their is an increased risk at the latter? ya feel me? Now call that young indie rock/ hippity hop tattooed girl you have been wanting to impress, grab a martini and sit in the back of the club. DO NOT i repeat DO NOT make eye contact with any of the gangbangers in the club, because you are the only one who isn't down and they can smell it on you.
83
Who gives a fuck what you call anything? Go where ever you want. You're a fucking hack. At least be fucking funny, you dipshit.
84
Fnarf, you generally seem to bring smart comments to these discussions, but on this you come off worse than the average anonymous troll, because you should know better.
you say:
"Personally, from what little I know of your scene, it is fatally infected with macho posturing, fronting, insults, gang worship, anti-women and anti-gay attitudes, and at its core a fundamental desire to be hard and tough and mean -- to live up to a cartoon reality of street attitudes that are at odds with civilization. I don't know what it is that makes a person decide that the best course of action is to fire a gun into a crowd of people, but I know what attitudes are likely to draw people in that direction. It's all over nearly every post on 206proof.com. Does that really speak for your community?"
At least you admit to knowing so little about it, so why all the judging? And it's not all over nearly every post on 206proof, the fact that you would even say that shows how little of it you have reviewed in the 20 minutes you clicked around it. Ask a few of your fellow bloggers who actually contribute to constructive discussions in that forum. There are posts discussing every single one of those lazy stereotypes you bring up
"If you're expecting boring middle-aged white people to make close distinctions between different kinds of rap, you're going to lose."
WOW, really? Maybe I'm wrong, but you seem to be including yourself as one of those BM-AWPs, again, you would rather stereotype than get informed? And that makes YOU the winner?
I guess I'll play by your rules and say "why not go buy your fourth copy of Daydream Nation, bitch about the bus ride home, and blog about how you finally perfected your fieldroast (un)meatloaf recipe paired with a divine glass of Quilceda Creek 2005, and leave this discussion to people who are informed, or would at least like to learn more about what happened and how to prevent it."
More...
you say:
"Personally, from what little I know of your scene, it is fatally infected with macho posturing, fronting, insults, gang worship, anti-women and anti-gay attitudes, and at its core a fundamental desire to be hard and tough and mean -- to live up to a cartoon reality of street attitudes that are at odds with civilization. I don't know what it is that makes a person decide that the best course of action is to fire a gun into a crowd of people, but I know what attitudes are likely to draw people in that direction. It's all over nearly every post on 206proof.com. Does that really speak for your community?"
At least you admit to knowing so little about it, so why all the judging? And it's not all over nearly every post on 206proof, the fact that you would even say that shows how little of it you have reviewed in the 20 minutes you clicked around it. Ask a few of your fellow bloggers who actually contribute to constructive discussions in that forum. There are posts discussing every single one of those lazy stereotypes you bring up
"If you're expecting boring middle-aged white people to make close distinctions between different kinds of rap, you're going to lose."
WOW, really? Maybe I'm wrong, but you seem to be including yourself as one of those BM-AWPs, again, you would rather stereotype than get informed? And that makes YOU the winner?
I guess I'll play by your rules and say "why not go buy your fourth copy of Daydream Nation, bitch about the bus ride home, and blog about how you finally perfected your fieldroast (un)meatloaf recipe paired with a divine glass of Quilceda Creek 2005, and leave this discussion to people who are informed, or would at least like to learn more about what happened and how to prevent it."
87
#74
how do we own up on something we had absolutely no control over? do you think any of us are okay with our friends being dead or strapped up to a breathing machine? do you honestly think we saw this coming and just shrugged it off?
yall are missing the point that this started out as a fight. just like any other fight starts at any bar, at any show, any where. it could have been amatuer karoake night at chop suey and this same shit could have happened just the same.
yes the glorification of guns and violence in the MAINSTREAM MUSIC is a problem. however if any of you actually attended a local hip hop show once in a while you would see that most of your local artists are on a completely different level. we aren't conding any kind of violence. if anything it should be fairly obvious that we are condeming it.
on another note, after rereading the intial write up, I can understand how people are misguided. if you would like to read a writeup from someone who was also there, check yourself to this write up.
http://seattlest.com/2009/01/05/local_hi…
how do we own up on something we had absolutely no control over? do you think any of us are okay with our friends being dead or strapped up to a breathing machine? do you honestly think we saw this coming and just shrugged it off?
yall are missing the point that this started out as a fight. just like any other fight starts at any bar, at any show, any where. it could have been amatuer karoake night at chop suey and this same shit could have happened just the same.
yes the glorification of guns and violence in the MAINSTREAM MUSIC is a problem. however if any of you actually attended a local hip hop show once in a while you would see that most of your local artists are on a completely different level. we aren't conding any kind of violence. if anything it should be fairly obvious that we are condeming it.
on another note, after rereading the intial write up, I can understand how people are misguided. if you would like to read a writeup from someone who was also there, check yourself to this write up.
http://seattlest.com/2009/01/05/local_hi…
88
@ Fnarf
"why a gunman would be interested in this scene"....why was a gunman interested in folk/world music at Folklife??? i mean, certainly folk music isn't glorifying violence, right? oh that's right...the reason why he was there is because his violence had NOTHING to do with the MUSIC just as is the case in THIS situation. it's a simple case of an altercation taking place and someone being desperate enough to involve gun violence.
"why a gunman would be interested in this scene"....why was a gunman interested in folk/world music at Folklife??? i mean, certainly folk music isn't glorifying violence, right? oh that's right...the reason why he was there is because his violence had NOTHING to do with the MUSIC just as is the case in THIS situation. it's a simple case of an altercation taking place and someone being desperate enough to involve gun violence.
89
Steve - I mean Fnarf, why don't you listen to some positive and deep hip hop instead of making shithead generalizations? Sage Francis, Immortal Technique, Nas, EPMD are a few off my dome.
Or better yet, just shut your yapper? There's 1 dead and 2 injured from saturday night due to a coward hater.
All in all guns are for cowards use your fists to back up what you say.
Or better yet, just shut your yapper? There's 1 dead and 2 injured from saturday night due to a coward hater.
All in all guns are for cowards use your fists to back up what you say.
90
I'm not seeing any reasons being offered why a person who is not knowledgeable about the scene shouldn't just avoid it as a matter of personal safety. If I have to go through some lengthy education process to understand which shows are likely to attract a violent crowd and which aren't, why should I bother? Why should a club bother, when all it takes is one incident like this to shut them down? Why wouldn't they just stop hosting hip-hop nights?
91
If I was a cop looking for a big gangster bust, I'd park my undercover car just outside one of these hip hop shows and just wait for the inevitable gun fire.
Like shooting fish in a barrel.
Like shooting fish in a barrel.
92
@91
oh yeah...cuz gunfire happens at all these shows. I've been to over 100 rap concerts and not ONE of them has had a shooting. BARELY any of them have even had fights.
oh yeah...cuz gunfire happens at all these shows. I've been to over 100 rap concerts and not ONE of them has had a shooting. BARELY any of them have even had fights.
93
I'm not sure anyone hear is arguing for you to attend a rap show in the first place. It's not your deal, fine. But why the fuck do you need to have an opinion?
94
Folk’s lives are at stake here, and yet you people want to fight over who is right nonhip-hop or hip-hop? This is super selfish!!!! This post should be about prayers and hopes that the young man (Prez) makes it out alive, and the Seattle Police department catch these goons. Stop defending hip hop to people who don't care... don't address any comments to homey, and stop trying to blame all hip-hop for this. Let’s pray or hope (for those of you with no GOD) that justice is found and the wounds are healed. Thank you and you're welcome.
95
Abe, when your scene starts featuring actual dead bodies, and young men (it's always young men, isn't it?) on ventilators in intensive care, it's not up to me to "get educated". I'm as educated as I ever want to be about gunshot wounds. If any education is going to take place, it's up to YOU to educate me about why these gunshot wounds aren't a part of your scene. Which is going to be hard for you to do, because we're both looking right at them. You can holler at each other all you want, and nobody's the worse for it, but when people die, it becomes everybody's business. You can't have it both ways.
For me, when I look up "Fatal Lucciauno" and see that his other nickname is "Intelligent Hoodlum", I don't think I need to look much further. Why isn't his nickname "Not going to be a hoodlum anymore"? The argument that you're just reflecting the street values you grew up in is really great if you're pretending you're from the South Bronx in 1978, but in the REAL WORLD that doesn't cut it anymore. There isn't any South Bronx in Seattle, and as someone pointed out in the other thread most of the people who live in the CD or the South End or the North End, no matter how disadvantaged their upbringing might be, manage to be productive non-murdering, non-drug-dealing citizens.
If your only response to "conditions suck" is to focus exclusively on the suck, to celebrate the dope and guns and gangs and criminal life, rather than finding something else to talk about, something that is positive, then you're going to end up neck-deep in it. You choose your response. You choose the life you lead. You can get a great education in a shitty school, or you can throw up your hands and rap about all the nasty street life that happens there. That's a choice you make, not me.
Yes, douchebags on punk rock forums make stupid and inflammatory comments. But no one dies. And if they did, I would be asking them the same questions I'm asking you. The people making those inflammatory remarks on 206proof, like D-Sane -- is he repudiated there? Do people compete to see who's the toughest, who's the baddest badass? Is jail time worth street cred? What about college time, work time?
More...
For me, when I look up "Fatal Lucciauno" and see that his other nickname is "Intelligent Hoodlum", I don't think I need to look much further. Why isn't his nickname "Not going to be a hoodlum anymore"? The argument that you're just reflecting the street values you grew up in is really great if you're pretending you're from the South Bronx in 1978, but in the REAL WORLD that doesn't cut it anymore. There isn't any South Bronx in Seattle, and as someone pointed out in the other thread most of the people who live in the CD or the South End or the North End, no matter how disadvantaged their upbringing might be, manage to be productive non-murdering, non-drug-dealing citizens.
If your only response to "conditions suck" is to focus exclusively on the suck, to celebrate the dope and guns and gangs and criminal life, rather than finding something else to talk about, something that is positive, then you're going to end up neck-deep in it. You choose your response. You choose the life you lead. You can get a great education in a shitty school, or you can throw up your hands and rap about all the nasty street life that happens there. That's a choice you make, not me.
Yes, douchebags on punk rock forums make stupid and inflammatory comments. But no one dies. And if they did, I would be asking them the same questions I'm asking you. The people making those inflammatory remarks on 206proof, like D-Sane -- is he repudiated there? Do people compete to see who's the toughest, who's the baddest badass? Is jail time worth street cred? What about college time, work time?
96
"All in all guns are for cowards use your fists to back up what you say."
You're not getting it, are you?
You're not getting it, are you?
97
"Many, many rappers idealize gangsters and even name themselves after them -- what do you think is going on with "Fatal Lucciauno" or "Young Soprano"?" - what? These guys are musicians... can't their names stand for the late Lucciauno Pavarotti or the youthful soprano voice, the highest human vocal range?
Seriously guys, the reason there was any spin at that meeting was because of the negative stereotypes that hip-hop carries. Our people were the victims of this crime... not the perpetrators. You'd be just as soon to put the gun in the hands of the Blue Scholars than respectfully identify the situation.
Gun violence is an abnormality at local hip-hop shows. Unfortunately, the national image of hip-hop in the mainstream is diluted with violent messages. The local collective of hip-hop is neither mainstream or collectively violent. Many of us SUCCESSFULLY rap about having fun, being community driven or even things like having a man crush or eating fuckin' donuts. You can't just clump it all together as violent anymore.
There is violence. There has been for roughly all of time. Certain people in the local hip-hop collective do focus on violent messages. Some have been first hand victims or at least bystanders of said occurrences. I can't stop them from rapping about it or justify for or against their stance from their shoes. As a rapper, I can distance myself from that.
What we all can do as rappers is try our hardest to change the public opinion of our group. We can't all get famous and show you that it's not such a bad world... to really know what the majority of us are saying in our music, you have to actively pursue it. Our job as rappers is to try and make the positive music more attainable.
Our entire local hip-hop scene should not be on trial here... and even only a very small percentage should even be questioned. However, the outsider will always formulate an opinion, be it correct or not. As a positive group of individuals that lost one of our own in a hallway that we've all walked numerous times, we did not meet up just for a spin session. There was grief, mourning and a positive plan of action being laid forth.
And with or without a bunch of your so called "wiggers" walking around with RIP 29-E T-Shirts on, he is gone and we are feeling the pain.
More...
Seriously guys, the reason there was any spin at that meeting was because of the negative stereotypes that hip-hop carries. Our people were the victims of this crime... not the perpetrators. You'd be just as soon to put the gun in the hands of the Blue Scholars than respectfully identify the situation.
Gun violence is an abnormality at local hip-hop shows. Unfortunately, the national image of hip-hop in the mainstream is diluted with violent messages. The local collective of hip-hop is neither mainstream or collectively violent. Many of us SUCCESSFULLY rap about having fun, being community driven or even things like having a man crush or eating fuckin' donuts. You can't just clump it all together as violent anymore.
There is violence. There has been for roughly all of time. Certain people in the local hip-hop collective do focus on violent messages. Some have been first hand victims or at least bystanders of said occurrences. I can't stop them from rapping about it or justify for or against their stance from their shoes. As a rapper, I can distance myself from that.
What we all can do as rappers is try our hardest to change the public opinion of our group. We can't all get famous and show you that it's not such a bad world... to really know what the majority of us are saying in our music, you have to actively pursue it. Our job as rappers is to try and make the positive music more attainable.
Our entire local hip-hop scene should not be on trial here... and even only a very small percentage should even be questioned. However, the outsider will always formulate an opinion, be it correct or not. As a positive group of individuals that lost one of our own in a hallway that we've all walked numerous times, we did not meet up just for a spin session. There was grief, mourning and a positive plan of action being laid forth.
And with or without a bunch of your so called "wiggers" walking around with RIP 29-E T-Shirts on, he is gone and we are feeling the pain.
98
"But why the fuck do you need to have an opinion? "
Why the f*ck do our tax dollars have to go to save your dumb asses when you get taken to Harborview?
I won't have an opinion when you all start payin' your own bills at Harborview.
Why the f*ck do our tax dollars have to go to save your dumb asses when you get taken to Harborview?
I won't have an opinion when you all start payin' your own bills at Harborview.
100
"I try not to listen to gangsta rap. It’s not helping."
- Spike Lee (The New Yorker, Sept 22, 2008)
- Spike Lee (The New Yorker, Sept 22, 2008)
102
If this shooting was such an out-of-the-blue surprise, and nothing to do with anything in the scene, then why are people on record as saying they knew there was going to be trouble, that they warned the promoter, that extra security was laid on, or that they stayed away because of it?
The attitude of "nope, no idea why anyone would associate hip hop with violence or gangs, it's a mystery to me, must be the media spreading lies again" -- that's not helping you. Neither is "it's just a reflection of the street, man".
The attitude of "nope, no idea why anyone would associate hip hop with violence or gangs, it's a mystery to me, must be the media spreading lies again" -- that's not helping you. Neither is "it's just a reflection of the street, man".
103
"Our entire local hip-hop scene should not be on trial here..."
It's not. Just the posers, wannabes, toughies, gang banging, cussing in public, gun totin', self centered, money chasing, gold chain wearin', big-rimmed Escalade drivin' a**holes who call their women ho's and b*tches and then scream racism when you suggest they are, in fact, what they are: assholes and gutter trash who deserve what ever they get in life.
It's not. Just the posers, wannabes, toughies, gang banging, cussing in public, gun totin', self centered, money chasing, gold chain wearin', big-rimmed Escalade drivin' a**holes who call their women ho's and b*tches and then scream racism when you suggest they are, in fact, what they are: assholes and gutter trash who deserve what ever they get in life.
104
Fnarf, in your lily-white world it's all about making the right decisions.
"There isn't any South Bronx in Seattle, and as someone pointed out in the other thread most of the people who live in the CD or the South End or the North End, no matter how disadvantaged their upbringing might be, manage to be productive non-murdering, non-drug-dealing citizens."
this looks good on paper and in theory but this only works for some people. those people who DID make it out to be 'good citizens' made the right decisions with the proper guidance IN SPITE OF all that was around them telling them that they had nothing to live for. well, MANY MORE people in those same environments DON'T get the proper guidance and life skills that they need in order to be 'good citizens'. they are products of their environment just as much as the person you think they should aspire to be...that 'good citizen' who made it out of the hood. they didn't make a choice to be a gangster vs. being a good student...as much you probably don't believe it there are MILLIONS of people who feel like the 'thug life' is the ONLY choice they have because that's all they know and that's all their environment shows them. when you have violence, shitty homes, shitty schools and the influence of your friends who have the same shitty schools, homes and violence in their lives what do you think is going to win out?
you want it to be better? do something to make THEIR lives better.
"There isn't any South Bronx in Seattle, and as someone pointed out in the other thread most of the people who live in the CD or the South End or the North End, no matter how disadvantaged their upbringing might be, manage to be productive non-murdering, non-drug-dealing citizens."
this looks good on paper and in theory but this only works for some people. those people who DID make it out to be 'good citizens' made the right decisions with the proper guidance IN SPITE OF all that was around them telling them that they had nothing to live for. well, MANY MORE people in those same environments DON'T get the proper guidance and life skills that they need in order to be 'good citizens'. they are products of their environment just as much as the person you think they should aspire to be...that 'good citizen' who made it out of the hood. they didn't make a choice to be a gangster vs. being a good student...as much you probably don't believe it there are MILLIONS of people who feel like the 'thug life' is the ONLY choice they have because that's all they know and that's all their environment shows them. when you have violence, shitty homes, shitty schools and the influence of your friends who have the same shitty schools, homes and violence in their lives what do you think is going to win out?
you want it to be better? do something to make THEIR lives better.
106
@97:
These guys are musicians... can't their names stand for the late Lucciauno Pavarotti or the youthful soprano voice, the highest human vocal range?"
lol sureeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee they do.
you dont really believe that do you?
These guys are musicians... can't their names stand for the late Lucciauno Pavarotti or the youthful soprano voice, the highest human vocal range?"
lol sureeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee they do.
you dont really believe that do you?
107
The Stranger is named after a sexual maneuver where one sits on their hand until it falls asleep than jacks off... does that represent the tabloid as well, Fnarf?
108
"Go find a Neo Con website to spew stupidity on."
Nice one. Lifelong Democrat. Worked and voted for Obama and was happy to hear him lecture yo' mamas about getting to bed on time.
Nice one. Lifelong Democrat. Worked and voted for Obama and was happy to hear him lecture yo' mamas about getting to bed on time.
109
@76, 104, etc etc thats bullshit and you know it. Seattle rappers are not living some kind of ghetto life as represented by actual ghettos. I don't see seattle rappers living on native american reservations or talking about living in Baltimore, Detroit, Gary, Newark, Oakland, East Palo Alto (if they were there in the mid 90s) Furthermore, the greatest consumer of rap and hip hop of dystopian or thug nature are white males, of middle income.
Explain in this case how shooting at people in this club is the result of generational ghettoization in the Seattle metro area.
Explain in this case how shooting at people in this club is the result of generational ghettoization in the Seattle metro area.
110
"@97:
These guys are musicians... can't their names stand for the late Lucciauno Pavarotti or the youthful soprano voice, the highest human vocal range?"
lol sureeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee they do.
you dont really believe that do you?"
You think? I'm more appalled by what some of you on here actually do believe.
These guys are musicians... can't their names stand for the late Lucciauno Pavarotti or the youthful soprano voice, the highest human vocal range?"
lol sureeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee they do.
you dont really believe that do you?"
You think? I'm more appalled by what some of you on here actually do believe.
111
104: I'm not talking about "making it out". I'm talking about YOUR COMMUNITY. You don't have to move house to live in a place where the majority of residents do the right thing every day; that's EVERYWHERE. This mythical place where thug life is the only way forward is IMAGINARY, and it's BULLSHIT. It's a form of play-acting, of self-justification, and as such is harmless play -- until people get shot because of it. You know there are thousands of people who live ordinary, decent lives right smack in the middle of your "thug life"; what about them?
As far as I'm concerned, everyone who dismisses these concerns with "you don't understand, this is how life is on the street" is an enabler. These shooters come out of that lifestyle, which you are helping to make possible.
The fact that there are gun-toting nitwits in other cultures (cf. the fool pointing his rifle at the cops the other day) doesn't mean that you get a pass on your own gun-toting nitwits.
As far as I'm concerned, everyone who dismisses these concerns with "you don't understand, this is how life is on the street" is an enabler. These shooters come out of that lifestyle, which you are helping to make possible.
The fact that there are gun-toting nitwits in other cultures (cf. the fool pointing his rifle at the cops the other day) doesn't mean that you get a pass on your own gun-toting nitwits.
112
@107: So, by analogy, in your culture your sleeping hand pulls a trigger instead. Makes perfect sense to me.
If I didn't know better, I'd think you were on the verge of calling me a faggot.
If I didn't know better, I'd think you were on the verge of calling me a faggot.
113
@ 109
um...you keep kicking people out of their neighborhoods into shittier ones.
how the fuck you do know what/where they live? have you ever been there? do you know anyone from there? do you know anyone who still lives there? i will grant you that most 'bad' neighborhoods in the Seattle are not as run down as that of other metro areas...that still doesn't mean they aren't bad. everything is relative as well...most 'good' neighborhoods in Seattle are better than 'good' neighborhoods in other metro areas. so the difference between good and bad is about the same.
lol @ "they aren't even 'ghetto' cuz their neighborhood doesn't have burned out buildings in it". you're a fucking genius.
um...you keep kicking people out of their neighborhoods into shittier ones.
how the fuck you do know what/where they live? have you ever been there? do you know anyone from there? do you know anyone who still lives there? i will grant you that most 'bad' neighborhoods in the Seattle are not as run down as that of other metro areas...that still doesn't mean they aren't bad. everything is relative as well...most 'good' neighborhoods in Seattle are better than 'good' neighborhoods in other metro areas. so the difference between good and bad is about the same.
lol @ "they aren't even 'ghetto' cuz their neighborhood doesn't have burned out buildings in it". you're a fucking genius.
114
OUR OWN GUN TOTING NIT-WITS? Rappers didn't kill anybody at Chop Suey... they were gunned down and victimized by murder.
Let's blame the slutty fuckin' chick for getting raped. Her slut lifestyle was just begging for hot forced dickings.
Let's blame the slutty fuckin' chick for getting raped. Her slut lifestyle was just begging for hot forced dickings.
115
Fnarf, believe me, I share your scorn for "thug life", but I don't understand your point.
There are plenty of kids in the CD and South Seattle being raised in South Bronx conditions. Plenty of kids with no dad and an alcoholic, crack-addicted mom, with no one covering basic needs like food, bath, clothing, and education. There is plenty of poverty and ignorance.
Gangsta rap, like radical Islam, feeds on poor, ignorant, and hopeless men with false promises of empowerment and glory. No doubt, they both take a shitty situation and make it much worse.
If you condemn all rap for the psychopathic attitudes of a subset just because you can't tell the difference, do you likewise condemn all Muslims? All Southerners? The entire hardcore punk scene?
There are plenty of kids in the CD and South Seattle being raised in South Bronx conditions. Plenty of kids with no dad and an alcoholic, crack-addicted mom, with no one covering basic needs like food, bath, clothing, and education. There is plenty of poverty and ignorance.
Gangsta rap, like radical Islam, feeds on poor, ignorant, and hopeless men with false promises of empowerment and glory. No doubt, they both take a shitty situation and make it much worse.
If you condemn all rap for the psychopathic attitudes of a subset just because you can't tell the difference, do you likewise condemn all Muslims? All Southerners? The entire hardcore punk scene?
116
@111, extend that to native americans fnarf. Reservations are just means to enable and shush native americans so that the failings to deal with the inherent problems they face, genetically (disease and alcohol), can be glossed over by "you don't know what it's like on the reservation!"
117
Fnarf: it's not EVERYWHERE. there's are plenty of neighborhoods where the majority of people aren't doing the right things. i've BEEN to those neighborhoods. they might WANT to do the right things but they also have to do what it takes to survive. there are some people there who ARE doing the right things but do those people get uplifted and highlighted as the way to model yourself after? of course not otherwise we'd have more 'model citizens' coming from rough neighborhoods. now we could really get into why these good people don't get made into an example of how to live but that would be opening up ANOTHER can of worms i don't wish to discuss with you.
the fact is that once again you're making assumptions about shit you know nothing about. it's what you've been doing this whole thread.
as far as me enabling? i'm not enabling shit...i don't condone that and say 'well hey you got a tough life cuz of your neighborhood and your surroundings so yeah it's okay to shoot people.' but i do understand WHY these people are put in the mindset that shooting someone is an acceptable form of conflict resolve. when i have the opportunity to interact w/ these types of people i definitely try to open up their minds to other possibilities...not just of conflict resolutions...but of other possibilities for their lives. then again, i actually am not afraid of these people like you are.
the fact is that once again you're making assumptions about shit you know nothing about. it's what you've been doing this whole thread.
as far as me enabling? i'm not enabling shit...i don't condone that and say 'well hey you got a tough life cuz of your neighborhood and your surroundings so yeah it's okay to shoot people.' but i do understand WHY these people are put in the mindset that shooting someone is an acceptable form of conflict resolve. when i have the opportunity to interact w/ these types of people i definitely try to open up their minds to other possibilities...not just of conflict resolutions...but of other possibilities for their lives. then again, i actually am not afraid of these people like you are.
118
@113,
Your premise is that bad neighborhoods results in bad behavior and lifestyle choices by individuals because the blight on the neighborhood is so grandiose that they don't see any other way.
Using your logical exercise; because one place is less bad than another but still worse than other local areas, and the depths to which something is bad isn't relevant to the outcomes of individuals in the neighborhood, only the proportion relative to another area, it stands to reason that no place will ever be good enough for certain individuals to avoid bad outcomes.
the short; it isn't the size of inequality or perceived limited options, but the fact that any exists at all.
Thats a pretty tall order to resolve. What's hip hop doing on that front?
Your premise is that bad neighborhoods results in bad behavior and lifestyle choices by individuals because the blight on the neighborhood is so grandiose that they don't see any other way.
Using your logical exercise; because one place is less bad than another but still worse than other local areas, and the depths to which something is bad isn't relevant to the outcomes of individuals in the neighborhood, only the proportion relative to another area, it stands to reason that no place will ever be good enough for certain individuals to avoid bad outcomes.
the short; it isn't the size of inequality or perceived limited options, but the fact that any exists at all.
Thats a pretty tall order to resolve. What's hip hop doing on that front?
119
" i actually am not afraid of these people like you are."
Oh, my thighs are trembling, you're soooooo tough and cool. Can I hang with you?
Oh, my thighs are trembling, you're soooooo tough and cool. Can I hang with you?
121
It's funny how Korean immigrants (I knew many in Detroit when I was hangin' there) managed to all move into these shitty neighborhoods, set up shops, work 7 day a week, 18 hrs days, put their kids through university and then move the fuck out.
Could it be their culture enabled them?
Could it be their culture enabled them?
122
well, it's nice to have a national culture and identity you didn't have to make up 150 years ago.
cotton- the fabric of our lives!
cotton- the fabric of our lives!
123
Furthermore Agenda,
As long as the violence problem remains localized to hip hop shows, you're going to find the answers on your own. and be judged by those that peacefully enjoy pursuits of art and culture.
As long as the violence problem remains localized to hip hop shows, you're going to find the answers on your own. and be judged by those that peacefully enjoy pursuits of art and culture.
124
No, Koreans just fled one of the worst wars of modern times, lived thru' mass starvation and hunger until the 1970s, lived under a brutal military dictatorship.
But I guess they had it easy compared to growing up in da hood. Maybe y'all should have copied the Koreans then instead of robbin' them??
But I guess they had it easy compared to growing up in da hood. Maybe y'all should have copied the Koreans then instead of robbin' them??
125
@122, You make the change in your life. It sounds like you still operate in a slave's mentality.
126
"Hip hop solutions to hip hop problems"
So no more demanding that we waste our tax dollars on hip hop problems?
So no more demanding that we waste our tax dollars on hip hop problems?
127
@125, it sounds like you still operate in a slavemaster's mentality. tell me what else i need to do!
130
@127 There are only two things you need to do;
1. Be aware of your surroundings and glean the best of what the world has to offer in experience.
2. Get that chip off your shoulder. When my family immigrated to the United States, we were never too proud nor too steeped in cultural identity that it alienated the opportunities that presented themselves.
American History X has a great scene that asks this question: "Has anything you've done made your life better?"
If you can honestly say that grasping on to the idea of a institutional and systemic racism, that keeps you down has made your life better, then we are at an impasse and you really have nothing to write about.
1. Be aware of your surroundings and glean the best of what the world has to offer in experience.
2. Get that chip off your shoulder. When my family immigrated to the United States, we were never too proud nor too steeped in cultural identity that it alienated the opportunities that presented themselves.
American History X has a great scene that asks this question: "Has anything you've done made your life better?"
If you can honestly say that grasping on to the idea of a institutional and systemic racism, that keeps you down has made your life better, then we are at an impasse and you really have nothing to write about.
131
"No one is above analysis or advice."
You must have failed the 'White Privilege' course at the Seattle Public Schools?
You must have failed the 'White Privilege' course at the Seattle Public Schools?
132
@127 - Until this country elects a black president, you've got no business lecturing me about racism, whitey.
133
I've deliberately not mentioned the black/white angle, because it's not a black or white problem. The shooter was white, as was at least one of the victims, and a substantial part of the scene. In fact, my casual observation (quite possibly wrong) is that whites into hip hop are even more likely to get caught up in the "who's toughest" bullshit than blacks are. I've also seen an attitude that sounds suspiciously like "I will express solidarity with my black brothers by aping the worst cliches of thugdom", which I imagine must drive blacks who are trying to escape thugdom out of their minds.
For the record, my great-great grandfather and my great-great-great grandfather both died fighting to put a stop to slavery. What that has to do with an asshole with a firearm, I don't know. Maybe these ancient conflicts are immanent in modern black culture, but it seems to me that instead of dwelling on that blacks and whites would want to find a way out of that mindset, not wear it like a badge of honor.
I wonder if First Black President is going to change his name in fifteen days, when we swear in our REAL first black president? If he lives.
I am not insensitive to the suffering of these young men, and the tragedy of their deaths. They are horrible, and the rank stupidity of the disputes, whatever they are, that led to these incidents makes it worse. I wish that everyone in every neighborhood could live happy, fulfilling lives. And I'm aware that you are grieving, though not as much as their families are grieving. But I think -- take it or leave it -- that some introspection about the role ones milieu of expression has played, and continues to play, in what happened. What made the shooter knock on THAT door?
For the record, my great-great grandfather and my great-great-great grandfather both died fighting to put a stop to slavery. What that has to do with an asshole with a firearm, I don't know. Maybe these ancient conflicts are immanent in modern black culture, but it seems to me that instead of dwelling on that blacks and whites would want to find a way out of that mindset, not wear it like a badge of honor.
I wonder if First Black President is going to change his name in fifteen days, when we swear in our REAL first black president? If he lives.
I am not insensitive to the suffering of these young men, and the tragedy of their deaths. They are horrible, and the rank stupidity of the disputes, whatever they are, that led to these incidents makes it worse. I wish that everyone in every neighborhood could live happy, fulfilling lives. And I'm aware that you are grieving, though not as much as their families are grieving. But I think -- take it or leave it -- that some introspection about the role ones milieu of expression has played, and continues to play, in what happened. What made the shooter knock on THAT door?
138
Let this one go and just let them kill themselves, Fnarf.
We can get heated up when innocent people become involved.
We can get heated up when innocent people become involved.
139
Y'all, theres as much macho posturing on 206proof as there is dickhead posturing here. I'll say it again : the shit I read on that board is no worse than the shit I read on this board. Coming from different places, sure, but still a heavy load of WTF?!?
Doesn't make either of us any better or worse than the others. The folks on 206proof aren't the ones who did the shooting, they're the ones who are trying to deal with it, so don't try coming back with any "but we don't shoot no-one on this board" bs.
Grow up.
Doesn't make either of us any better or worse than the others. The folks on 206proof aren't the ones who did the shooting, they're the ones who are trying to deal with it, so don't try coming back with any "but we don't shoot no-one on this board" bs.
Grow up.
140
@138, I want no part of "let them kill themselves".
No one deserves to die, and neither the young man who died the other night nor the one in intensive care "brought this on themselves".
I just want people in the scene to open their eyes and see how attitudes they adopt do have consequences. When you look for trouble, you get it. It's not about blame, it's about making it stop.
No one deserves to die, and neither the young man who died the other night nor the one in intensive care "brought this on themselves".
I just want people in the scene to open their eyes and see how attitudes they adopt do have consequences. When you look for trouble, you get it. It's not about blame, it's about making it stop.
143
all this talk about the events from Saturday from people who weren't even there, lol. I wasn't there either, but I knew all three victims, and have the ACTUAL information about what happened.
look, Saturday night's shooting DID NOT start out as a bar fight. The shooter was NOT a rapper, dj, promoter, or even a local music fan. It was a guy with a gun, a beef and a mission to kill. He came all the way from Everett to Seattle with the intent to commit murder against a guy that he'd attempted to kill before because he knew his target would be there. THE ONLY THING THAT MUSIC HAD TO DO WITH THIS SHOOTING, IS THAT THE INTENDED VICTIM WAS AT THE SHOW.
First Black Prez now goes by Prezwell Jackson, and has for quite a while.
Homey, you are nothing more than a heartless troll attempting to cause more pain and heartache for those of us who care about the victims. Get the fuck outta here with ALL of your bullshit.
look, Saturday night's shooting DID NOT start out as a bar fight. The shooter was NOT a rapper, dj, promoter, or even a local music fan. It was a guy with a gun, a beef and a mission to kill. He came all the way from Everett to Seattle with the intent to commit murder against a guy that he'd attempted to kill before because he knew his target would be there. THE ONLY THING THAT MUSIC HAD TO DO WITH THIS SHOOTING, IS THAT THE INTENDED VICTIM WAS AT THE SHOW.
First Black Prez now goes by Prezwell Jackson, and has for quite a while.
Homey, you are nothing more than a heartless troll attempting to cause more pain and heartache for those of us who care about the victims. Get the fuck outta here with ALL of your bullshit.
145
@142 Sorry homeslice.
I'm definitely not Fnarf. My snarky level is not nearly refined enough to match his wit.
For now.
I'm definitely not Fnarf. My snarky level is not nearly refined enough to match his wit.
For now.
146
All I know is this shit doesn't happen at 4th wave shows. No true Mad Rad fan would shoot up the club.
Mudede might be in there.
Mudede might be in there.
149
@ Fnarf, that fag goes strikingly well with that wigger that is bouncing around this thread too. All we can hope now is that in 2012 we get a Log Cabin Republican running and we can finally end this sexual intolerance.
151
The way SLOGers have responded to this incident is deeply disturbing, even accounting for the casual heartlessness of [what passes for] "blog culture".
To the 206Proof folks commenting here - you've done more than I would have to have said your peace with these SLOG folks and the ones who have not gotten it yet are just not going to get it. I'd say you're wasting your time to keep commenting here - I thank you for taking the time to do your best to share what's going on for you.
Quite a few of these SLOG commenters seem to have a really distorted view of hip hop and appear to have zeroed in and are nitpicking on one detail (about the lyrics and posturing - and sometimes violence - that some artists/producers/whatever get into) to the exclusion of a lot of other things. It's starting to make me believe the only time they notice that hip hop exists is when there's a show at Chop Suey or Bumbershoot. Of course, if you read SLOG comments a lot, you know a lot of these folks here get really obsessive-compulsive and fixated about posting a lot of comments on stupid shit like someone posting a picture of dog poo or whatever (seriously). And too much of the time it seems the only reason SLOG exists is so some people can make a living from posting really provocative statements mostly just to stir shit.
I really didn't realize the extent of the unconscious racism that is showing up here. I say unconscious because I believe (perhaps foolishly) that some of the commenters on here would not be engaging in some the more profound examples of it if they actually caught sight of how they have attitudes, assumptions, and filters [a,a&f] that are racist. [There are other commenters who are being offensive consciously but there are assholes everywhere, aren't there].
Sure I expected some of the racist a,a&f because that's so common, but I did think that with a little dialogue at least some people would get some - even a bit - of the a,a&f the are showing in their actions. Maybe some have, but far more commenters than I would have expected are not. And I'm betting I'm seeing only whatever portion of my own attitudes, assumptions and filters that I'm capable of recognizing.
It's like I'm seeing commenters assert a viewpoint, and then someone challenges that view, and the original commenter still doesn't get it, and this happens over and over (and over and over). Why don't they get - I can hear what the people challenging them are saying, the people challenging them hear what they're saying, but the people being challenged are just not getting it.
I've seen something similar in some community meetings where what I saw were white people and black people discussing a neighborhood issue using the same words, and taking the time to do some explanation of what each meant by the those words and how the topic affected them, but still somehow communication was not happening - or more precisely I think the black people were more or less getting what the white people were meaning, but the white people were really not getting what the black people were saying.
It's like the white people were stuck inside of their own meaning/experience/cultural reference about the topic, and I guess they just had never had any experience in life that would give them any context for grasping the particular reality of the issue that the black people were speaking up about. At the least I thought (in this case) the white people would at least get that they are not getting something, just out of a basic respect for other human beings - that even though they were all talking about the same topic the black people were saying something about it that wasn't making sense to the white people - at the least I thought the white people would get that they weren't getting something.
But no, the white people kept asserting their viewpoint over and over again like it was the only possible conclusion about the topic that anybody could come to. It was weird to witness, and disturbing. Just like these several topics on SLOG related to the shooting at Chop Suey . . . there must be five topics on this going, and pretty much the same thing is happening on each of them.
It's disturbing, that with this much talk there can be this much failure to communicate, that with black and white people living in the same city - even sometimes the same neighborhood, they're living in two such different realities . . .
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To the 206Proof folks commenting here - you've done more than I would have to have said your peace with these SLOG folks and the ones who have not gotten it yet are just not going to get it. I'd say you're wasting your time to keep commenting here - I thank you for taking the time to do your best to share what's going on for you.
Quite a few of these SLOG commenters seem to have a really distorted view of hip hop and appear to have zeroed in and are nitpicking on one detail (about the lyrics and posturing - and sometimes violence - that some artists/producers/whatever get into) to the exclusion of a lot of other things. It's starting to make me believe the only time they notice that hip hop exists is when there's a show at Chop Suey or Bumbershoot. Of course, if you read SLOG comments a lot, you know a lot of these folks here get really obsessive-compulsive and fixated about posting a lot of comments on stupid shit like someone posting a picture of dog poo or whatever (seriously). And too much of the time it seems the only reason SLOG exists is so some people can make a living from posting really provocative statements mostly just to stir shit.
I really didn't realize the extent of the unconscious racism that is showing up here. I say unconscious because I believe (perhaps foolishly) that some of the commenters on here would not be engaging in some the more profound examples of it if they actually caught sight of how they have attitudes, assumptions, and filters [a,a&f] that are racist. [There are other commenters who are being offensive consciously but there are assholes everywhere, aren't there].
Sure I expected some of the racist a,a&f because that's so common, but I did think that with a little dialogue at least some people would get some - even a bit - of the a,a&f the are showing in their actions. Maybe some have, but far more commenters than I would have expected are not. And I'm betting I'm seeing only whatever portion of my own attitudes, assumptions and filters that I'm capable of recognizing.
It's like I'm seeing commenters assert a viewpoint, and then someone challenges that view, and the original commenter still doesn't get it, and this happens over and over (and over and over). Why don't they get - I can hear what the people challenging them are saying, the people challenging them hear what they're saying, but the people being challenged are just not getting it.
I've seen something similar in some community meetings where what I saw were white people and black people discussing a neighborhood issue using the same words, and taking the time to do some explanation of what each meant by the those words and how the topic affected them, but still somehow communication was not happening - or more precisely I think the black people were more or less getting what the white people were meaning, but the white people were really not getting what the black people were saying.
It's like the white people were stuck inside of their own meaning/experience/cultural reference about the topic, and I guess they just had never had any experience in life that would give them any context for grasping the particular reality of the issue that the black people were speaking up about. At the least I thought (in this case) the white people would at least get that they are not getting something, just out of a basic respect for other human beings - that even though they were all talking about the same topic the black people were saying something about it that wasn't making sense to the white people - at the least I thought the white people would get that they weren't getting something.
But no, the white people kept asserting their viewpoint over and over again like it was the only possible conclusion about the topic that anybody could come to. It was weird to witness, and disturbing. Just like these several topics on SLOG related to the shooting at Chop Suey . . . there must be five topics on this going, and pretty much the same thing is happening on each of them.
It's disturbing, that with this much talk there can be this much failure to communicate, that with black and white people living in the same city - even sometimes the same neighborhood, they're living in two such different realities . . .
152
@151 "It's like the white people were stuck inside of their own meaning/experience/cultural reference about the topic, and I guess they just had never had any experience in life that would give them any context for grasping the particular reality of the issue"
This is exactly it. By and large, people who have experienced no significant forms of oppression in their life, namely middle-class white people, especially straight middle-class white males, are incapable of processing the truths of oppression / marginalization. Yes, there are certainly some of them who through introspection, reflective listening and general human empathy can come to understand it, but by and large, people who have not directly experienced what it means to be a member of a marginalized group will completely disbelieve the effects and pervasiveness of that marginalization.
This effect is very clear in all of the comments about how "oh, well there are some positive role models amidst the sea of negative role models / negative influences in the these young peoples' lives, so it is 100% these disadvantaged youths fault that they don't pay attention to those isolated good examples".
or any of the tons of comments that show a radical misunderstanding of the simple truth that while music may have some role to play in all this inasmuch as it is an agent of culture, the music is a *REFLECTION* of people's lived experiences. Would more positive / conscious / non-violent hip-hop, especially in the mainstream, improve people's lives? Yes. But are people selling drugs on the street and taking out their aggression with guns solely because rap tells them too? Of course not. They are doing those things because the environments they find themselves in dictate those things, and then the popular culture they consume reflects those things, which then reinforces that behavior in a self-perpetuating cycle. But saying the impetus for change has to come from hiphop music, which is only a small part of the forces reinforcing this violence compared to lack of proper public education, lack of meaningful employment opportunities for products of substandard public education in the post-industrial service economy, etc. etc.
But most clearly of all, it is reflected in Fnarf’s view that it is the responsibility of these marginalized groups to educate him on his misunderstandings, to show him why he is wrong, what he is missing. Marginalized groups are forced to learn every little thing about the dominant majority, but the majority bitches when they are asked to have even a basic familiarity with the actual realities of marginalized groups. If you don’t believe this statement, you are fundamentally ignorant and blind to the social realities of the world around you: just look at gay people being forced to learn constantly about straight romance/sex/gender binaries, atheists being forced to have at least passing familiarity with and respect for religious concepts, women being forced to learn how to not offend men’s masculinity or self-image while trying to succeed. Minority groups are asked to learn everything about the majority at all times, I don’t think it’s too much to ask that the majority educate it self when on its own shortsightedness.
Unfortunately, this is never going to happen. And this is why it is functionally the hiphop’s community’s responsibility to educate people on the complexities of this issue, because there are not enough people who will see past their own blindness on their own.
And to everyone who keeps bringing up that perennially tired canard of “Koreans (or XYZ other minority) made it, so why can’t American blacks?” Go learn about even the most basic rudiments of race relations in the United States. You know, the whole Korean immigrants could get small business loans when American blacks couldn’t, Asians as the model minority, things like that. And to be clear for all the trolls (I am looking at you homey), I am not saying anything against korean’s abilities, cultural values, industriousness, etc. I think there are compelling arguments to be made about cultural patterns of success, but to completely discount the realities of American racism, especially when it comes to the black / Korean issue, is ignorant.
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This is exactly it. By and large, people who have experienced no significant forms of oppression in their life, namely middle-class white people, especially straight middle-class white males, are incapable of processing the truths of oppression / marginalization. Yes, there are certainly some of them who through introspection, reflective listening and general human empathy can come to understand it, but by and large, people who have not directly experienced what it means to be a member of a marginalized group will completely disbelieve the effects and pervasiveness of that marginalization.
This effect is very clear in all of the comments about how "oh, well there are some positive role models amidst the sea of negative role models / negative influences in the these young peoples' lives, so it is 100% these disadvantaged youths fault that they don't pay attention to those isolated good examples".
or any of the tons of comments that show a radical misunderstanding of the simple truth that while music may have some role to play in all this inasmuch as it is an agent of culture, the music is a *REFLECTION* of people's lived experiences. Would more positive / conscious / non-violent hip-hop, especially in the mainstream, improve people's lives? Yes. But are people selling drugs on the street and taking out their aggression with guns solely because rap tells them too? Of course not. They are doing those things because the environments they find themselves in dictate those things, and then the popular culture they consume reflects those things, which then reinforces that behavior in a self-perpetuating cycle. But saying the impetus for change has to come from hiphop music, which is only a small part of the forces reinforcing this violence compared to lack of proper public education, lack of meaningful employment opportunities for products of substandard public education in the post-industrial service economy, etc. etc.
But most clearly of all, it is reflected in Fnarf’s view that it is the responsibility of these marginalized groups to educate him on his misunderstandings, to show him why he is wrong, what he is missing. Marginalized groups are forced to learn every little thing about the dominant majority, but the majority bitches when they are asked to have even a basic familiarity with the actual realities of marginalized groups. If you don’t believe this statement, you are fundamentally ignorant and blind to the social realities of the world around you: just look at gay people being forced to learn constantly about straight romance/sex/gender binaries, atheists being forced to have at least passing familiarity with and respect for religious concepts, women being forced to learn how to not offend men’s masculinity or self-image while trying to succeed. Minority groups are asked to learn everything about the majority at all times, I don’t think it’s too much to ask that the majority educate it self when on its own shortsightedness.
Unfortunately, this is never going to happen. And this is why it is functionally the hiphop’s community’s responsibility to educate people on the complexities of this issue, because there are not enough people who will see past their own blindness on their own.
And to everyone who keeps bringing up that perennially tired canard of “Koreans (or XYZ other minority) made it, so why can’t American blacks?” Go learn about even the most basic rudiments of race relations in the United States. You know, the whole Korean immigrants could get small business loans when American blacks couldn’t, Asians as the model minority, things like that. And to be clear for all the trolls (I am looking at you homey), I am not saying anything against korean’s abilities, cultural values, industriousness, etc. I think there are compelling arguments to be made about cultural patterns of success, but to completely discount the realities of American racism, especially when it comes to the black / Korean issue, is ignorant.
153
At this point, I will only address a couple of structural issues.
If you are running an operation with elevated risk (y'all can fight it out amongst yourselves whether a hip hop club or show qualifies) there are *some* things you can do to reduce risk.
Harden the building. Take a look at club design at places where things are a bit frisky, such as Israel, and steal safety ideas as they will fit in your establishment or community.
Setting up non-emergency entrances so that patrons must take a 90 degree turn upon entry in front of a projectile (bullets or WHATEVER) resistant barrier makes the job of shooters and bad folk more challenging. It's not a bad idea that such a "forced turn" have some kind of grid or other ceiling to frustrate those as would toss some kind of badness over the top.
Similarly, repealing the smoke ban reduces (nothing will eliminate, but safety is a game of odds, not certainties) the number of folks lingering outside feeding their addiction (aka, potential targets).
Buildings are easier to fix than people or cultures. Usually cheaper and faster, too.
None of the above points at "hip-hop" - but more at risk management. Nor are the suggestions above the only measures available to be implemented to enhance safety. But what say we try them before we start in on the "hard stuff" of changing human nature or declaring various subcultures anathema?
If you are running an operation with elevated risk (y'all can fight it out amongst yourselves whether a hip hop club or show qualifies) there are *some* things you can do to reduce risk.
Harden the building. Take a look at club design at places where things are a bit frisky, such as Israel, and steal safety ideas as they will fit in your establishment or community.
Setting up non-emergency entrances so that patrons must take a 90 degree turn upon entry in front of a projectile (bullets or WHATEVER) resistant barrier makes the job of shooters and bad folk more challenging. It's not a bad idea that such a "forced turn" have some kind of grid or other ceiling to frustrate those as would toss some kind of badness over the top.
Similarly, repealing the smoke ban reduces (nothing will eliminate, but safety is a game of odds, not certainties) the number of folks lingering outside feeding their addiction (aka, potential targets).
Buildings are easier to fix than people or cultures. Usually cheaper and faster, too.
None of the above points at "hip-hop" - but more at risk management. Nor are the suggestions above the only measures available to be implemented to enhance safety. But what say we try them before we start in on the "hard stuff" of changing human nature or declaring various subcultures anathema?
154
@153: Those solutions, like the proposed solution of requiring more security for shows in general (as opposed to shows with a high risk of trouble) are expensive. Perhaps measures like that make more economic sense in Israel, where the incidence of shootings and bombings is relatively high, but here they really don't. I've been to hundreds and hundreds of shows and have never once seen a shooting happen. It's pretty clear that different shows and different venues have different risk levels, just as it's clear that people in "the scene" have at least some sense of what the risk factors are. Requiring all shows and all venues to accommodate the risk levels of a tiny subset of shows would push many already-marginal clubs into the red, spending money they don't have to employ large security staffs that would sit on their butts doing nothing 99.9% of the time, and installing bullet-proof barriers where none will ever be needed.
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