Saturday, January 3, 2009
News Ahem.
Posted by Dan Savage on Sat, Jan 3, 2009 at 8:14 PM
Israel has invaded Gaza. Slog is AWOL. Andrew Sullivan is all over it.
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Ahem, Hamas has fired over 200 rockets from Gaza into Israel. It is rumored that Israel will start expelling the Palestinians from Gaza when they have taken control of it. This is not that surprising. What is surprising is that Hamas actually thought attacking Israel was a good idea. (Like when their Muslim neighbors did during 1948 Arab-Israeli War, The Six-Day War, The Yom Kippur War, etc etc...)
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Im pretty uneducated on this whole thing...but my gut says, poor people in a neo-version of a concentration camp, foot on throat, barely striking out and getting slaughtered for it. And we sit idly by for some strange notion of being allies, some sort of obligation to say ok, whatever you Israelis wanna do....This whole situation makes me fucking sad and miserable...We are so fucked as a species...Am I wrong on any of this?
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Having lived in Middle East for more than 5 years (in Arab country that hates Israel), I must say... Fuck yeah. About time. I'm not against Arabs. I don't love Jews.
But this time Hamas went too far. The difference between the two sides is that Israel doesn't want to destroy Palestine and Hamas au contraire. They asked for it, cocksuckers. And they will probably get what they wanted, judging by the protests around the world - sympathy.
This land has to be and will be one day divided so everyone can be fucking happy. Jews need it, and Palestinians need it and both deserve it.
But this time Hamas went too far. The difference between the two sides is that Israel doesn't want to destroy Palestine and Hamas au contraire. They asked for it, cocksuckers. And they will probably get what they wanted, judging by the protests around the world - sympathy.
This land has to be and will be one day divided so everyone can be fucking happy. Jews need it, and Palestinians need it and both deserve it.
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I wonder how those 200 rockets compare to what Israel has sent in....Its like throwing sticks and stones into a house full of machine guns...
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only 4 Israelis have been killed by the bombs Hamas is flinging out of Palestine...
A significantly larger number of Palestinians have died in the last 8 days.
A significantly larger number of Palestinians have died in the last 8 days.
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Palenstinians and Hamas are two different groups. The way I see is that Hamas is the bully islamic group that pressures all Semites and Arabs into allowing them to live with them. Any attempt of rejecting Hamas into your community and you get killed. No questions asked. The Arab world needs to deal with Hamas themselves. Israel attacking or defending themselves against Hamas provokes the Arab world to be sympathetic towards Hamas. I hate to say this but the only way Hamas can be dealt with is if they start another civil war in Lebanon or do something stupid in Egypt while the world - in particular, the Arab world - is watching and the world will turn against Hamas. Unfortunately, Hamas provoked Israel this time by attacking them from Gaza. The last time Hamas provoked Israel was by attacking them from Lebanon.
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>But this time Hamas went too far.
>The difference between the two sides is that Israel doesn't want to destroy Palestine and Hamas au contraire.
>They asked for it, cocksuckers
The Gaza crossings have been closed preventing any aid from entering Gaza. Hamas started firing rockets in retaliation.
Dec 18th
Israel has cited rocket and other attacks by militants in Gaza against Israeli civilians as the reason for closing border crossings into Gaza for almost two months now. The closures have worsened the humanitarian situation in the Gaza Strip, which is home to an estimated 1.5 million Palestinians.
Mr. Serry noted that, because of the closures, half of Gaza City’s population receives water only once a week for a few hours. In addition, UN projects in Gaza, worth over $150 million, remain suspended due to a lack of materials.
http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?Ne…
>The difference between the two sides is that Israel doesn't want to destroy Palestine and Hamas au contraire.
>They asked for it, cocksuckers
The Gaza crossings have been closed preventing any aid from entering Gaza. Hamas started firing rockets in retaliation.
Dec 18th
Israel has cited rocket and other attacks by militants in Gaza against Israeli civilians as the reason for closing border crossings into Gaza for almost two months now. The closures have worsened the humanitarian situation in the Gaza Strip, which is home to an estimated 1.5 million Palestinians.
Mr. Serry noted that, because of the closures, half of Gaza City’s population receives water only once a week for a few hours. In addition, UN projects in Gaza, worth over $150 million, remain suspended due to a lack of materials.
http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?Ne…
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That is correct. Too bad Hamas transports weapons instead of aid through those tunnels from Egypt.
Look, the lefties and some arabs will bitch just like commies and commie countries bitched back in the day about embargos. In the end, this is the only way to make Palestinians, the ones who dont affiliate themselves with Hamas to turn against Hamas. And that's the bottom line. I'm sorry that innocent people have to die. It's not Israels fault.
Look, the lefties and some arabs will bitch just like commies and commie countries bitched back in the day about embargos. In the end, this is the only way to make Palestinians, the ones who dont affiliate themselves with Hamas to turn against Hamas. And that's the bottom line. I'm sorry that innocent people have to die. It's not Israels fault.
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Yeah, you know what? That's bullshit.
Let's try a little thought experiment, shall we? Imagine for a second that the Palestinians stopped attacking Israel altogether for, say, 30 years. During that time, they build up their industrial capacity and financial resources until they have the resources to, say, field a modern military. Do you suppose Israel would ever, in a million years, allow that to happen?
When Israel invaded Lebanon, how did they go about it? Did they carry out surgical strikes against Hamas positions using satellite recon and guided munitions? Sometimes. But they also bombed power plants, sewage treatment plants, rail lines, and highways. Lebanon will be recovering from that invasion financially for 100 years.
Nothing would make a certain portion of the Israeli government happier than to kill everyone in the Palestinian refugee camps, bulldoze the bodies into Syria, and build settlements to the Egyptian and Jordanian borders. They can't get away with that, but they're perfectly willing to keep the Palestinians in misery, in perpetuity, as an alternative. And, from time, they'll invade, push the borders back a bit and see what sticks.
If Hamas didn't already exist, Israel would invent it.
The difference between the two sides is that Israel doesn't want to destroy Palestine and Hamas au contraire.
Yeah, you know what? That's bullshit.
Let's try a little thought experiment, shall we? Imagine for a second that the Palestinians stopped attacking Israel altogether for, say, 30 years. During that time, they build up their industrial capacity and financial resources until they have the resources to, say, field a modern military. Do you suppose Israel would ever, in a million years, allow that to happen?
When Israel invaded Lebanon, how did they go about it? Did they carry out surgical strikes against Hamas positions using satellite recon and guided munitions? Sometimes. But they also bombed power plants, sewage treatment plants, rail lines, and highways. Lebanon will be recovering from that invasion financially for 100 years.
Nothing would make a certain portion of the Israeli government happier than to kill everyone in the Palestinian refugee camps, bulldoze the bodies into Syria, and build settlements to the Egyptian and Jordanian borders. They can't get away with that, but they're perfectly willing to keep the Palestinians in misery, in perpetuity, as an alternative. And, from time, they'll invade, push the borders back a bit and see what sticks.
If Hamas didn't already exist, Israel would invent it.
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@ 8,
The Gaza crossings have been closed to prevent any suicide bombers from entering Israel from Gaza. The same way all of Israel's borders are closed...and Israel's borders will remain closed until Hamas (and Iran) stops funding terrorism and spewing rhetoric about destroying Zion.
Do Palestinian's get a raw deal? Sure. But they aren't blameless victims here. They keep wasting time (60 years and counting!), energy, resources on a lost cause (destroying Israel). Instead of wasting time and energy on destroying Israel (and yes that's the goal) they should expend their energy on building a better Palestine. Israel is good at winning wars. Israel is good at avenging dead Israelis. Hamas and Palestinians keep backing a losing strategy; picking fights they are NOT. GOING. TO. WIN.
The Gaza crossings have been closed to prevent any suicide bombers from entering Israel from Gaza. The same way all of Israel's borders are closed...and Israel's borders will remain closed until Hamas (and Iran) stops funding terrorism and spewing rhetoric about destroying Zion.
Do Palestinian's get a raw deal? Sure. But they aren't blameless victims here. They keep wasting time (60 years and counting!), energy, resources on a lost cause (destroying Israel). Instead of wasting time and energy on destroying Israel (and yes that's the goal) they should expend their energy on building a better Palestine. Israel is good at winning wars. Israel is good at avenging dead Israelis. Hamas and Palestinians keep backing a losing strategy; picking fights they are NOT. GOING. TO. WIN.
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Blah Blah Blah, Cousins beating the hell out of each other and way? Because God gave everyone the same piece of real estate. And why does the world stand by and watch the Israelis beat the living shit out of the Palestinians, take their land, imprison their young men, build a concentration camp wall? Because there's nothing there worth getting involved with. No Oil, No Minerals, No Water, No Lumber, No nothing but a bunch of "Moses slept here" and "Abraham ate here" tourist shrines.
America could have this all be over in 30 days if it only wanted to have it be over; Stop paying Israel's bills. In 30 days they'd settle it like MEN, with fits and bats. I'm so sick of this family feud.
America could have this all be over in 30 days if it only wanted to have it be over; Stop paying Israel's bills. In 30 days they'd settle it like MEN, with fits and bats. I'm so sick of this family feud.
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thank Christ the likes of SLOG and Andrew Sullivan are finally on this problem. I expect it to be solved by these mental titans virtually instantaneously
16
A billion years from now, when the earth has been destroyed, and only atoms remain, the atom that was Arabia will be at war with the Atom that was Jews.
Arabs hate Jews. That is all. They don't care about land. They don't care about people. They don't care about anything. You could offer to give them the entire world in exchange for just letting the Jews have a 100 foot space in Antarctica and they'd refuse and declare war.
They just hate the jews. Period. Their lives are completely consumed and focused on Jews. Nothing else in the universe matters at all to them.
Just fyi...
Arabs hate Jews. That is all. They don't care about land. They don't care about people. They don't care about anything. You could offer to give them the entire world in exchange for just letting the Jews have a 100 foot space in Antarctica and they'd refuse and declare war.
They just hate the jews. Period. Their lives are completely consumed and focused on Jews. Nothing else in the universe matters at all to them.
Just fyi...
17
@14 FTW.
Bottom line: America needs to stop funding Israel. No more funds, no more sweetheart arms deals, no more intelligence sharing, no more nuclear arms shield. Israel, you can do whatever you want and the price is on your own head. Then we can talk about maybe having a fair fight.
Bottom line: America needs to stop funding Israel. No more funds, no more sweetheart arms deals, no more intelligence sharing, no more nuclear arms shield. Israel, you can do whatever you want and the price is on your own head. Then we can talk about maybe having a fair fight.
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This is totally my fault. I didn't go to the protest at Westlake today.
Also, a little FYI for people talking about Israel & Lebanon - that was Hezbollah, not Hamas. Similar but a bit different.
I agree that the US shouldn't be giving Israel military aid, but that's going to take a lot of work to end - at least one treaty would need to be revised, plus I don't think very many congressional representatives would actually side with Palestine ever. Is this the test for Obama Biden was talking about?
Also, a little FYI for people talking about Israel & Lebanon - that was Hezbollah, not Hamas. Similar but a bit different.
I agree that the US shouldn't be giving Israel military aid, but that's going to take a lot of work to end - at least one treaty would need to be revised, plus I don't think very many congressional representatives would actually side with Palestine ever. Is this the test for Obama Biden was talking about?
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>America needs to stop funding Israel.
Also, US veto history wrt to security council says a lot, no?
Persistent use of its veto power in the Security Council with respect to resolutions condemning the actions of Israel has been an ongoing cause of friction between the General Assembly, where the post-cold war status quo is a majority bloc of Arab and developing countries which has condemned Israeli actions on numerous occasions, and the United States (see Negroponte doctrine). In fact, since 1989 the USA has been the sole dissenting vote (out of five permanent member) against security council resolutions on 12 occasions out of 17 total instances when a permanent member dissented
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Stat…
Also, US veto history wrt to security council says a lot, no?
Persistent use of its veto power in the Security Council with respect to resolutions condemning the actions of Israel has been an ongoing cause of friction between the General Assembly, where the post-cold war status quo is a majority bloc of Arab and developing countries which has condemned Israeli actions on numerous occasions, and the United States (see Negroponte doctrine). In fact, since 1989 the USA has been the sole dissenting vote (out of five permanent member) against security council resolutions on 12 occasions out of 17 total instances when a permanent member dissented
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Stat…
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If Israel is so good at winning wars why are they still fighting? The Palestinians have demographics on their side, the Israelis can't keep importing Jews forever.
Anyway why do opponents of group X even bother explaining how in their view basically X can't win and should stop wasting everyone's time. Reeks of disingenuousness.
Like an increasing number of Americans I just don't care. I'm not out protesting the Israelis 'cause I can certainly see their side even if I disagree. But Israel should find some other friends because: WHAT IS IN IT FOR US????????
Since when is American foreign policy based on friendship and love anyway? What do we GET for supporting Israel?
Anyway why do opponents of group X even bother explaining how in their view basically X can't win and should stop wasting everyone's time. Reeks of disingenuousness.
Like an increasing number of Americans I just don't care. I'm not out protesting the Israelis 'cause I can certainly see their side even if I disagree. But Israel should find some other friends because: WHAT IS IN IT FOR US????????
Since when is American foreign policy based on friendship and love anyway? What do we GET for supporting Israel?
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US State Department
Press Statement
Sean McCormack, Spokesman
Washington, DC
January 3, 2009
Situation in Gaza
We are working toward a cease-fire that would not allow a reestablishment of the status quo ante, where Hamas can continue to launch rockets out of Gaza and to condemn the people of Gaza to a life of misery. It is obvious that that cease-fire should take place as soon as possible, but we need a cease-fire that is durable, sustainable, and not time limited.
Hamas has held the people of Gaza hostage ever since their illegal coup against the forces of President Mahmoud Abbas, the legitimate President of the Palestinian people. They have used Gaza as a launching pad for rockets against Israeli cities, and have contributed deeply to a very bad daily life for the Palestinian people in Gaza and to a humanitarian situation that we have all been trying to address. Hamas has made it very difficult for the people of Gaza to have a reasonable life.
The United States is deeply concerned about the humanitarian situation and the protection of innocents. In this vein, we have expressed our concerns to the Israeli government that any military action needs to be mindful of the potential consequences to civilians.
Released on January 3, 2009
Press Statement
Sean McCormack, Spokesman
Washington, DC
January 3, 2009
Situation in Gaza
We are working toward a cease-fire that would not allow a reestablishment of the status quo ante, where Hamas can continue to launch rockets out of Gaza and to condemn the people of Gaza to a life of misery. It is obvious that that cease-fire should take place as soon as possible, but we need a cease-fire that is durable, sustainable, and not time limited.
Hamas has held the people of Gaza hostage ever since their illegal coup against the forces of President Mahmoud Abbas, the legitimate President of the Palestinian people. They have used Gaza as a launching pad for rockets against Israeli cities, and have contributed deeply to a very bad daily life for the Palestinian people in Gaza and to a humanitarian situation that we have all been trying to address. Hamas has made it very difficult for the people of Gaza to have a reasonable life.
The United States is deeply concerned about the humanitarian situation and the protection of innocents. In this vein, we have expressed our concerns to the Israeli government that any military action needs to be mindful of the potential consequences to civilians.
Released on January 3, 2009
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It's easy to point to multiple injustices on each side (they closed the border crossings! they fired missiles at our cities! they killed some civilians! they sent a suicide bomber!), but to me, at the end of the day, to me, it comes down to stated intent. Hamas's stated intent is to destroy Israel. Israel's stated intent is not to destroy all the Palestinians. When the PLO renounced terrorism and acknowledged Israel's right to exist, it was recognized and legitimized by Israel -- it's now the Palestinian Authority. You know, the one Hamas overthrew in a mini-civil war in the Gaze Strip a few years ago.
In terms of disporptionate response, I look at the Catholic just war doctrine, where the amount of force is to be in line with the threat. It's not a "they killed 4 people so we can only kill 4 people" type deal, but rather does the force match the resistance to evil. So, if Hamas wants to exterminate all the Jews in Israel, Israel is justified in using what appears to be disporportinate force against them.
In terms of disporptionate response, I look at the Catholic just war doctrine, where the amount of force is to be in line with the threat. It's not a "they killed 4 people so we can only kill 4 people" type deal, but rather does the force match the resistance to evil. So, if Hamas wants to exterminate all the Jews in Israel, Israel is justified in using what appears to be disporportinate force against them.
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Hamas's stated intent is to destroy Israel. Israel's stated intent is not to destroy all the Palestinians
Fair comment but Hamas didn't come into existence till the late 80's
Fair comment but Hamas didn't come into existence till the late 80's
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What’s up with these protesters today at west lake center...
First they turn downtown Seattle into an open air mosque... WTF
Then they march down the street yelling “intifada “with kids dressed up in fake blood and carrying coffins … I guess that’s their way of showing us their appreciation to our great country and our American values – what a bunch of pricks.
BTW, what would you say if tomorrow the turned the corner of Broadway and east john street into a mosque?
First they turn downtown Seattle into an open air mosque... WTF
Then they march down the street yelling “intifada “with kids dressed up in fake blood and carrying coffins … I guess that’s their way of showing us their appreciation to our great country and our American values – what a bunch of pricks.
BTW, what would you say if tomorrow the turned the corner of Broadway and east john street into a mosque?
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I read somewhere on-line that Israel funded the groups that eventually became Hammas - to counter the PLO...anyone know if that is true? Reminds me of the US backing of the Taliban vs. Russia back in the day...and then abandoning ship...now look at Afghanistan. Maybe Israel thinks it has to kill its Frankenstein.
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I guess that’s their way of showing us their appreciation to our great country and our American values – what a bunch of pricks.
Those darn crazy kids!
LONDON (Reuters) – Thousands of chanting, banner-waving demonstrators marched in cities across Europe on Saturday to demand a halt to Israeli bombing in the Gaza Strip.
Protests were held in Britain, France, Germany, Greece, Ireland, Italy, the Netherlands, Spain and Turkey as the Israeli offensive entered its second week, and before Israel confirmed ground forces had entered Gaza.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/us_palestinia…
Those darn crazy kids!
LONDON (Reuters) – Thousands of chanting, banner-waving demonstrators marched in cities across Europe on Saturday to demand a halt to Israeli bombing in the Gaza Strip.
Protests were held in Britain, France, Germany, Greece, Ireland, Italy, the Netherlands, Spain and Turkey as the Israeli offensive entered its second week, and before Israel confirmed ground forces had entered Gaza.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/us_palestinia…
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From the New York Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/04/world/…
“What I think we need to do is to reach a situation in which we do not allow Hamas to govern,” [Israel's Vice Premier] Mr. [Haim] Ramon said on Channel One. “That is the most important thing.”
Israel is punishing the people of Gaza for electing Hamas, and making any kind of normal daily life impossible until Hamas is replaced. Creating a humanitarian crisis on purpose, intentionally producing anarchy, is a war crime, because it wages war on civilians rather than on combatants, on civilian rather than military infrastructure. Good thing neither Israel nor the U.S. appear to believe in international law!
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/04/world/…
“What I think we need to do is to reach a situation in which we do not allow Hamas to govern,” [Israel's Vice Premier] Mr. [Haim] Ramon said on Channel One. “That is the most important thing.”
Israel is punishing the people of Gaza for electing Hamas, and making any kind of normal daily life impossible until Hamas is replaced. Creating a humanitarian crisis on purpose, intentionally producing anarchy, is a war crime, because it wages war on civilians rather than on combatants, on civilian rather than military infrastructure. Good thing neither Israel nor the U.S. appear to believe in international law!
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@27: Here is a link to the info you're referring to, which is that Hamas grew through clandestine funding by Israel as Israel tried to destabilize the PLO in the 1970s.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info…
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info…
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#21. What's in it for us? Not a damn thing. But there is a lot in it for our politicians.
Our country is home to a lot of citizens who are Zionists. America's citizens still see the Jewish people as God's chosen. We are a religious nation, and our politicians behave accordingly. AIPAC is a powerful lobby in Washington. Obama jumped through their hoops during the election, and it wasn't until he spoke at one of their conferences that he got Rahm Emanuel's endorsement.
At this point I just don't give a shit anymore. Sure Israel behaves badly. They will as long as they've got our money on their side (their are three countries fighting this war, you know). But this sure as hell doesn't place me on Palestine's side. Their human rights policies are abysmal. Nobody is the "good guy" here, especially us.
Our country is home to a lot of citizens who are Zionists. America's citizens still see the Jewish people as God's chosen. We are a religious nation, and our politicians behave accordingly. AIPAC is a powerful lobby in Washington. Obama jumped through their hoops during the election, and it wasn't until he spoke at one of their conferences that he got Rahm Emanuel's endorsement.
At this point I just don't give a shit anymore. Sure Israel behaves badly. They will as long as they've got our money on their side (their are three countries fighting this war, you know). But this sure as hell doesn't place me on Palestine's side. Their human rights policies are abysmal. Nobody is the "good guy" here, especially us.
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#16 - has to be one of the most ignorant comments I've read in a long time. Yes, lots of Arabs hate Jews. And lots of them - especially Palestinians - are pissed off that these outsiders came in and stole people's homes and land and have been treating them as subhuman for decades. One of the other posters had it right - cut off our billions of dollars of aid to the Israeli Parasite State and then see how tough they are.
I am aware that there are large parts of the Israeli population that condemn the policies of their government and work for peace, just as there were large numbers of Americans who opposed the invasion of Iraq. And both groups are equally successful at stopping the warmongers. At any rate, those who think this is the only way to get Palestinians to stop supporting Hamas have their head up their ass. When you murder civilians, the response is inevitably to support whatever group: a) claims to speak for you; and b) has weapons. That's Hamas. I know if I were a Palestinian and had family members killed by the Ameri - oops, I mean Israelis, I'd be hoping for a nice big WMD to go off in downtown Tel Aviv. And I'd support Hamas like never before.
In the meantime, as the carnage continues, remember that every bullet, tank, and rocket in Israel's arsenal might as well have a big American flag and the letters "MADE IN USA" on them. Let's remember that next time we ask ourselves "why they hate us".
I am aware that there are large parts of the Israeli population that condemn the policies of their government and work for peace, just as there were large numbers of Americans who opposed the invasion of Iraq. And both groups are equally successful at stopping the warmongers. At any rate, those who think this is the only way to get Palestinians to stop supporting Hamas have their head up their ass. When you murder civilians, the response is inevitably to support whatever group: a) claims to speak for you; and b) has weapons. That's Hamas. I know if I were a Palestinian and had family members killed by the Ameri - oops, I mean Israelis, I'd be hoping for a nice big WMD to go off in downtown Tel Aviv. And I'd support Hamas like never before.
In the meantime, as the carnage continues, remember that every bullet, tank, and rocket in Israel's arsenal might as well have a big American flag and the letters "MADE IN USA" on them. Let's remember that next time we ask ourselves "why they hate us".
37
As an Israeli, living in Israel, I understand the world's opinion on the matter, for better or for worse.
I can't say I think our moves so far have been well planned or strategically the right thing to do. I know many innocent people will get hurt on both sides.
But I also know that no American would stand for it if rockets were suddenly being fired on one particular state, let's say California. If California was being bombarded with rockets, even if they weren't killing people.. if children couldn't go to school, if children and adults had to be terrified by air raid sirens and live in fear, no American would protest to action being taken. So while the world can say what they want, no country would do nothing.
I can't say I think our moves so far have been well planned or strategically the right thing to do. I know many innocent people will get hurt on both sides.
But I also know that no American would stand for it if rockets were suddenly being fired on one particular state, let's say California. If California was being bombarded with rockets, even if they weren't killing people.. if children couldn't go to school, if children and adults had to be terrified by air raid sirens and live in fear, no American would protest to action being taken. So while the world can say what they want, no country would do nothing.
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#26 - just curious...what the hell does the Israeli invasion of Gaza have to do with "our great country and our American values"???
40
I'm with 37.
What if British Colombia started lobbing bombs at Seattle? What if Mexico bombed Houston?
We'd invade, or bomb the hell out of them in no time.
What if British Colombia started lobbing bombs at Seattle? What if Mexico bombed Houston?
We'd invade, or bomb the hell out of them in no time.
41
a couple words...because i'm entitled to my own opinion right?
Israel get the fuck out of Palestine!
oh..and by the way...Hamas is not a terrorist organization...just because they are doing everything within their power in order to free Palestine (oh..of coarse US dont like that !) does not mean they are terrorists!!
what? Palestine is not allowed to have their own army according to the US and israel...so what do you expect them to do...allow israel to keep taking advantage of them?
hellllllll no!
Israel get the fuck out of Palestine!
oh..and by the way...Hamas is not a terrorist organization...just because they are doing everything within their power in order to free Palestine (oh..of coarse US dont like that !) does not mean they are terrorists!!
what? Palestine is not allowed to have their own army according to the US and israel...so what do you expect them to do...allow israel to keep taking advantage of them?
hellllllll no!
42
"If Israel is so good at winning wars why are they still fighting? The Palestinians have demographics on their side, the Israelis can't keep importing Jews forever."
I think the Israelis have come up with some process where they can actually make more Jews. Plus the Jews living outside Israel have also cottoned on to it.
I think the Israelis have come up with some process where they can actually make more Jews. Plus the Jews living outside Israel have also cottoned on to it.
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Slog's posts are always better than Sullivan's, #43, which is why I began hanging out here.
Oh, and regarding my own post at #35? ::sigh:: I do know the difference between "there" and "their."
Oh, and regarding my own post at #35? ::sigh:: I do know the difference between "there" and "their."
45
Look, I don't pretend to understand any of this, but WRT "excessive force", if you start throwing rocks at a guy who you KNOW has a gun and you KNOW is willing to use it, aren't you at least partially responsible for whatever bullets you take?
47
just one single bomb lobbed our way from Mexico City. Or from the Tijuana drug lords.
What would we do? How would you feel?
What would we do? How would you feel?
48
Israel's stated goal is to stop the rocket fire from Gaza by eliminating Hamas's arsenal. Neither bombardment nor a ground invasion can accomplish this, the supply of arms in the world is abundant and the money pouring to Hamas's militants will only increase as a result of Israel's offensive. It is irrational to support a military action that can't possible achieve it's stated goal, regardless of Israel's right to defend itself.
Comparing Israel's situation to one in which the US was receiving rocket fire from Canada is also ridiculous. Hamas is not a country. Politically, they won some local elections on a platform of fighting the corruption that had become rampant among Fatah officials, militarily they are a group of well-armed guerillas that don't answer to any electorate.
Equating the entire population of Gaza with Hamas will become a self-fulfilling prophesy as Israel blockades, bombs and invades the area. Military action forces people to take sides and solidify their prejudices. This action will not improve Israel's security, which makes it no more than a cruel and pointless waste of life.
Comparing Israel's situation to one in which the US was receiving rocket fire from Canada is also ridiculous. Hamas is not a country. Politically, they won some local elections on a platform of fighting the corruption that had become rampant among Fatah officials, militarily they are a group of well-armed guerillas that don't answer to any electorate.
Equating the entire population of Gaza with Hamas will become a self-fulfilling prophesy as Israel blockades, bombs and invades the area. Military action forces people to take sides and solidify their prejudices. This action will not improve Israel's security, which makes it no more than a cruel and pointless waste of life.
49
38-
Ok, so you think the analogy is "ridiculous?" But using semantics to hurl the term ridiculous at an argument is pretty weak. Perhaps no one answers the question "how would you feel if a rocket from somewhere in Canada landed on your house?" because the truth is, it would scare the shit out of you. The truth is, you'd be angry, and you'd want your government to prevent further such rockets. The truth is, you don't want to admit that you might feel just like the Israelis, who are human, just like you.
To get at Hamas (a particular group IN Gaza), Israel must invade guess what, GAZA.
If, hypothetically, Mexican drug cartels widened their war to include targets in the US, the hypothetical analogy is that the US might have to consider, guess what, CROSSING THE MEXICAN BORDER (aka, "invading") in order to get at the MEXICAN drug lords. Mexican here means "in Mexico", not the Mexican government or the country of.
Ok, so you think the analogy is "ridiculous?" But using semantics to hurl the term ridiculous at an argument is pretty weak. Perhaps no one answers the question "how would you feel if a rocket from somewhere in Canada landed on your house?" because the truth is, it would scare the shit out of you. The truth is, you'd be angry, and you'd want your government to prevent further such rockets. The truth is, you don't want to admit that you might feel just like the Israelis, who are human, just like you.
To get at Hamas (a particular group IN Gaza), Israel must invade guess what, GAZA.
If, hypothetically, Mexican drug cartels widened their war to include targets in the US, the hypothetical analogy is that the US might have to consider, guess what, CROSSING THE MEXICAN BORDER (aka, "invading") in order to get at the MEXICAN drug lords. Mexican here means "in Mexico", not the Mexican government or the country of.
51
@12
btw Dan should get a clue from the Middle East and quit trying to destroy the fundies and instead work for Civil Union. Don't be the queers' Hamas.
btw Dan should get a clue from the Middle East and quit trying to destroy the fundies and instead work for Civil Union. Don't be the queers' Hamas.
52
@43, @44,
HA HA HA, yeah, some real deep thought here on Slog. Truly cogent international affairs analysis from the thoughtful minds that brought us the Great Plastic Bag and Salted Road Debates of 2008
HA HA HA, yeah, some real deep thought here on Slog. Truly cogent international affairs analysis from the thoughtful minds that brought us the Great Plastic Bag and Salted Road Debates of 2008
53
@ 51,
Dan and the fundies have little if nothing to do with Israel vs. Palestine. Except the part where one intolerant religious group tries to ram its imbecilic beliefs/lifestyle down the throat of non-Straight/White/Christian/Males.
Israel vs. Palestine has been going on for 60 years (and counting!) Israel certainly seems to be doing better than Palestine, they have utilities, schools, jobs, democracy, etc. etc. Palestine doesn't have any of these things. (If you're really gullible you can believe they have a functioning democracy, but...)
You could blame it all on Israel but honestly, what of their own responsibility? Israel put up a fence on their border, and now Palestinians can't get to work so they have no money. If they wanted the fence to come down, Palestinians wouldn't glorify martyrdom and keep attacking Israel across the border.
Palestinians had their houses bulldozed and their land seized. Yes, but 60 years ago they were asked to register their land, but refused because it meant they'd have to pay taxes on it. Now their land is being seized after they claimed they didn't own it. Whoops!
http://www.ujc.org/page.aspx?id=31965
Palestinians don't have access to humanitarian aide. See Israeli borders above.
Palestinians are being expelled from Israel. See suicide bombers above.
Palestinians have no access to water. Well, geez when you start a war with somebody who has you vastly outgunned they get all pissed off and drop bombs and crap on your stuff and blow it up.
Israel is killing lots of Palestinians. Well, yes, that is what war is all about: killing people. The winner of any war is the person who killed the most opponents. It's like chess but with corpses. If Hamas is upset by 400 dead Palestinians, it is only because they're doing such a poor job of killing the other "team". (Honestly, though, I think they're thrilled by every Palestinian civilian fatality, good PR.)
Israel is just as guilty in this war as Palestine, but they seem to be have come out ahead while Palestine just keeps falling further and further behind. If Palestine wants to reverse this trend they are going to have to come up with a new strategy because the old one of Destroy Israel! (60 years and counting!) is not going to be anymore successful than it has in the past.
p.s. I think both Israelis and Palestinians have an equal amount of guilt in this conflict. Israel is just more efficient at killing people.
More...
Dan and the fundies have little if nothing to do with Israel vs. Palestine. Except the part where one intolerant religious group tries to ram its imbecilic beliefs/lifestyle down the throat of non-Straight/White/Christian/Males.
Israel vs. Palestine has been going on for 60 years (and counting!) Israel certainly seems to be doing better than Palestine, they have utilities, schools, jobs, democracy, etc. etc. Palestine doesn't have any of these things. (If you're really gullible you can believe they have a functioning democracy, but...)
You could blame it all on Israel but honestly, what of their own responsibility? Israel put up a fence on their border, and now Palestinians can't get to work so they have no money. If they wanted the fence to come down, Palestinians wouldn't glorify martyrdom and keep attacking Israel across the border.
Palestinians had their houses bulldozed and their land seized. Yes, but 60 years ago they were asked to register their land, but refused because it meant they'd have to pay taxes on it. Now their land is being seized after they claimed they didn't own it. Whoops!
http://www.ujc.org/page.aspx?id=31965
Palestinians don't have access to humanitarian aide. See Israeli borders above.
Palestinians are being expelled from Israel. See suicide bombers above.
Palestinians have no access to water. Well, geez when you start a war with somebody who has you vastly outgunned they get all pissed off and drop bombs and crap on your stuff and blow it up.
Israel is killing lots of Palestinians. Well, yes, that is what war is all about: killing people. The winner of any war is the person who killed the most opponents. It's like chess but with corpses. If Hamas is upset by 400 dead Palestinians, it is only because they're doing such a poor job of killing the other "team". (Honestly, though, I think they're thrilled by every Palestinian civilian fatality, good PR.)
Israel is just as guilty in this war as Palestine, but they seem to be have come out ahead while Palestine just keeps falling further and further behind. If Palestine wants to reverse this trend they are going to have to come up with a new strategy because the old one of Destroy Israel! (60 years and counting!) is not going to be anymore successful than it has in the past.
p.s. I think both Israelis and Palestinians have an equal amount of guilt in this conflict. Israel is just more efficient at killing people.
56
53
The Palestinians have been living in squalor and misery for three generations but can't find anything better to focus on than destroying Israel. They are poorly served by their leaders and will not win that battle. They should focus on achievable goals that will improve their lives. When hate is the motivation little good will come from it.
Gays have made much progress. To stake all in a life or death struggle with Evangelicals and Catholics and Mormons and Obama over calling Civil Union 'marriage' is a losing struggle. If you follow Dan in his jihad against religion you will lose. Work for Civil Union. Get past the hate of religion. Have a place at the table with the adults.
Find a better cause and a better leader.
The Palestinians have been living in squalor and misery for three generations but can't find anything better to focus on than destroying Israel. They are poorly served by their leaders and will not win that battle. They should focus on achievable goals that will improve their lives. When hate is the motivation little good will come from it.
Gays have made much progress. To stake all in a life or death struggle with Evangelicals and Catholics and Mormons and Obama over calling Civil Union 'marriage' is a losing struggle. If you follow Dan in his jihad against religion you will lose. Work for Civil Union. Get past the hate of religion. Have a place at the table with the adults.
Find a better cause and a better leader.
57
This is a clash of civilizations
Before you decide to support any of the sides check this out:
Support Gay rights Israel:Yes US:Yes Palestinians/Muslims:Nope
Equal rights for women Israel:Yes US:Yes Palestinians/Muslims:Nope
Democratic elections Israel:Yes US:Yes Palestinians/Muslims:Nope
Teach love not war Israel:Yes US:Yes Palestinians/Muslims:Nope
Fact: Muslims don’t like anyone that is not a Muslim… for examples:
The Muslim Palestinians systematically persecute the minority Christian Palestinian population.
Same in Lebanon or Iraq, in fact ask any Christian Lebanese what he thinks of Muslims and or Palestinian refuges.
Whether you are a republican/democrat or independent our American values simply don’t align with any Muslim or Palestinian values
Before you decide to support any of the sides check this out:
Support Gay rights Israel:Yes US:Yes Palestinians/Muslims:Nope
Equal rights for women Israel:Yes US:Yes Palestinians/Muslims:Nope
Democratic elections Israel:Yes US:Yes Palestinians/Muslims:Nope
Teach love not war Israel:Yes US:Yes Palestinians/Muslims:Nope
Fact: Muslims don’t like anyone that is not a Muslim… for examples:
The Muslim Palestinians systematically persecute the minority Christian Palestinian population.
Same in Lebanon or Iraq, in fact ask any Christian Lebanese what he thinks of Muslims and or Palestinian refuges.
Whether you are a republican/democrat or independent our American values simply don’t align with any Muslim or Palestinian values
58
ummm...#51
u dont know anything about being a muslim...i suggest reading up on it, before opening your mouth....trust me...it would make you look like less of an idiot...
u dont know anything about being a muslim...i suggest reading up on it, before opening your mouth....trust me...it would make you look like less of an idiot...
60
#59 i guess thats your way of saying that i should shut the fuck up because you are a Muslim and i am not... BTW any chance we will see Muslims support the gay pride parade next year?
61
Dear Slog staff: Please immediately stop writing inane posts about biking, bike lanes, snow, pit bulls, Dina Martina, croutons, toast, kittens, gay sex, books that nobody will ever read, Karl Marx, boobs, Karl Marx and boobs, Amanda Knox, the garbage bag tax, "art" in Seattle, feces, Rick Warren, Barack Obama and gang shootings at the Chop Suey. Dan commands you to immediately don your foreign policy caps and write serious posts about Israel and the Gaza Strip. This is a serious blog, dammit.
62
#61 - LMAO! Comments like yours make me just love SLOG
Actually, I find the combination of well-thought-out intelligent and informative posts - and - the inane, sometimes vicious rants, entertaining and illustrative of the diversity of human nature.
Just hate those times when I can't figure out which is which ;-))
Actually, I find the combination of well-thought-out intelligent and informative posts - and - the inane, sometimes vicious rants, entertaining and illustrative of the diversity of human nature.
Just hate those times when I can't figure out which is which ;-))
63
57: If you think Israel is some bastion for women's or gay rights, you're pretty dumb. Israel doesn't preach peace either, dumbass.
64
@ 48: A bunch of terrorists based in Afghanistan took out a couple of buildings in New York City in 2001 (remember that)--we invaded the crap out of Afghanistan with the full approval of the world, and with every NATO member at our back. I do wonder how you'd feel about rockets being fired into your neighborhood every day by a bunch of rogue residents of British Columbia. I doubt you'd shrug it off and say, oh, well those people aren't really a country, so no need to seal off the border to keep out suicide bombers, don't want to punish all the innocent Canadians. You'd be screaming for massive military intervention. Trust me on this.
65
64: You're still pushing a retarded analogy, because Gaza is not a nation state. It's a parcel of land Israel has cordoned a bunch of Palestinians into. If the United States set up a territory for an indigenous ethnic group in L.A. , I think most people could understand that group firing rockets at the people who did it to them. British Columbia firing rockets at Seattle has nothing to do with the situation in Gaza, and you need to just drop it.
66
Allow me to clarify this: "If the United States set up a territory for an indigenous ethnic group in L.A. , I think most people could understand that group firing rockets at the people who did it to them."
If the US set up a parcel of land and cordoned a bunch of indigenous people into it, and then proceeded to strangle them economically because they didn't like their leadership, most people would understand it if they fired rockets at the people who did it.
And this doesn't even address how lopsided, disproportionate and nakedly dick-wagging Israel's invasion is. I suppose it doesn't matter in the end of the day, because if Israel keeps applying overt force, they're not going to have a state, at least not one worth living in, in fifty years.
They're going to find themselves with a mostly-Arab population, surrounded by mostly hostile Arab states.
If the US set up a parcel of land and cordoned a bunch of indigenous people into it, and then proceeded to strangle them economically because they didn't like their leadership, most people would understand it if they fired rockets at the people who did it.
And this doesn't even address how lopsided, disproportionate and nakedly dick-wagging Israel's invasion is. I suppose it doesn't matter in the end of the day, because if Israel keeps applying overt force, they're not going to have a state, at least not one worth living in, in fifty years.
They're going to find themselves with a mostly-Arab population, surrounded by mostly hostile Arab states.
67
Well, JMS, you'd better hope that your neighbors living on any nearby Indian reservation don't start shelling your kids' schools. You'll understand, of course, and the world will sympathize, but we'll all just throw up our hands and say, well, of course! they have the right to do that!
68
67: Actually, the Native Americans were well within their right to fight the European Americans- I know that Americans aren't supposed to root for the underdog, but I actually do. In fact, the Native Americans should probably just have slaughtered every man, woman and child who came to their shores from Europe. It's not like hospitality helped or anything.
And having children doesn't mean you have a right to treat other people like garbage. I know that's hard to understand. Palestinians are the victims whether you want to accept it or not. They're the ones who have been displaced within the last century, not the Israelis. They're the ones who have a valid complaint. And if you really want to play these stupid "think of the children" games, well, the Israelis are killing a hell of a lot more children then Hamas.
My general rule is don't fuck over another people (or in this case, apathetically go along with every pigheaded cruel policy your state carries out), because in the end you and your family will be the ones who going to get fucked. You know what? There isn't going to be a Third Temple, and the sooner Israel understands that, the better off they'll be in the long run.
And having children doesn't mean you have a right to treat other people like garbage. I know that's hard to understand. Palestinians are the victims whether you want to accept it or not. They're the ones who have been displaced within the last century, not the Israelis. They're the ones who have a valid complaint. And if you really want to play these stupid "think of the children" games, well, the Israelis are killing a hell of a lot more children then Hamas.
My general rule is don't fuck over another people (or in this case, apathetically go along with every pigheaded cruel policy your state carries out), because in the end you and your family will be the ones who going to get fucked. You know what? There isn't going to be a Third Temple, and the sooner Israel understands that, the better off they'll be in the long run.
69
I would respect Israel a hell of a lot more if they'd stop pretending they're the victims. They didn't have to build their state in Palestine.
70
@ JMS, if you truly believe that Arabs have been even-handed in their treatment of Jews over the centuries during which Jews have lived in the Middle East, you really need to educate yourself on the subject. Your ignorance is showing.
72
hey #60..ya, you should shut the fuck up...and no i am not a Muslim..(im actually atheist...if that matters at all), and btw, not all Muslims are against gay marriage, just like not all Christians are against it too...
73
Lol!
Palestinians are subhuman vermin. As Jews it is our right to kill all the Palestinians we want to.
I am glad The Stranger strongly pro-Israel in this war. It is the righteous position.
Anyone who criticizes Israel in this war is anti-semitic.
Palestinians are subhuman vermin. As Jews it is our right to kill all the Palestinians we want to.
I am glad The Stranger strongly pro-Israel in this war. It is the righteous position.
Anyone who criticizes Israel in this war is anti-semitic.
74
@73
I hope you are kidding....
if not, i feel sorry for you and your hateful misguided views
those are the type of backward views that makes peace in the middle east seem impossible
I hope you are kidding....
if not, i feel sorry for you and your hateful misguided views
those are the type of backward views that makes peace in the middle east seem impossible
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