Friday, January 2, 2009
City Seven Shots
Posted by Jonah Spangenthal-Lee on Fri, Jan 2, 2009 at 4:59 PM
This is the gun that got University of Washington student Miles Murphy killed:
The Seattle Police Department held a press conference earlier this afternoon to talk about the events that led to Murphy's tragic death on New Year's Day.
SPD Chief Gil Kerlikowske said that as officers were taking up positions outside of Murphy's home, the 22-year-old man came out of his house wearing a German military uniform and pointed a Kar 98 bolt action rifle—which was apparently loaded with blanks—at officers.
Kerlikowske says officers, who were in uniform, ordered Murphy to drop his weapon three times. Murphy did not respond, and instead raised the rifle, pointed it at officers, lowered it, raised it again and stepped towards officers.
Two officers carrying rifles—Adam Elias and Kirk Waldord, who've been with SPD for 7 and 10 years, respectively—fired seven shots, fatally wounding Murphy. Witnesses had apparently told police that Murphy was firing blanks in an alley next to his home, however, Kerlikowske argued that “officers don’t get the option to believe everything they’re told by a witness.” He also stated that it is not department policy to use less lethal weapons like Tasers when a gun is involved. “It’s just not done,” Kerlikowske said, later adding that “’shoot to wound’ is purely myth.”
According to Kerlikowske, SPD previously confiscated Murphy's rifle in November 2006, but he would not elaborate on why. The rifle was returned two months later. The chief also noted that Officer Elias has taken an extensive deescalation course with the department and stated that neither officer has been involved a prior shooting. Kerlikowske believes "alcohol was certainly a factor" in the shooting and that officers made the right decision. Police found a box of live ammunition in Murphy's house after the shooting and detained two men for questioning. No arrests were made.
According to Murphy's friend Andrew Swanson, Murphy was depressed, but he doesn't believe his friend committed "suicide by cop."
"He definitely had his issues with depression. He was kind of a sad guy," Swanson says. "A lot of us are too, so we could relate to him in that way [but] I can’t say any of his emotional problems had anything to do with what happened."
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3
How could emotional problems NOT have anything to do with donning a WWII military uniform and pointing a rifle at police? I would say that regardless of what police should or shouldn't do, this whole thing had to be the result of mental illness.
4
What about the other guys? Is it true that there was a second guy shooting in the alley? Is it true that three more guys were there -- a total of five of them? What do they have to say for themselves?
I mostly want to know how they could have let him come to the door carrying that gun in the first place. And how they all agreed that shooting blanks in the alley was a good idea in the first place. How drunk were they? Is this the first time they all got drunk and played with their guns? Have they fired blanks in the city before? Are they still in police custody? Will they be charged?
These people who were close to Murphy have a lot to tell about what led up to this.
I mostly want to know how they could have let him come to the door carrying that gun in the first place. And how they all agreed that shooting blanks in the alley was a good idea in the first place. How drunk were they? Is this the first time they all got drunk and played with their guns? Have they fired blanks in the city before? Are they still in police custody? Will they be charged?
These people who were close to Murphy have a lot to tell about what led up to this.
5
Even so, having a militarized police force whose problem solving skills are limited to shooting everyone is sight certainly isn't helping.
6
Also. Was Murphy an actual member of a real reenactment group? Was there any live ammunition in the apartment? Questions. Questions...
10
police generally don't shoot everyone in sight. it's usually just the ones who are pointing guns at them.
11
yeah. even before militarized police squads, this guy would have been toast. it's not like the swat team blasted him.
12
Look, I realize that the US police are dealing with a heavily armed, borderline psychotic population, but similiar incidents of police-caused deaths in Canada and England cause national scandals--here it's just a Thursday.
Clearly something's gone cuckoo.
Clearly something's gone cuckoo.
13
@3 This doesn't scream mental illness to me. The guy liked military history (particularly German, Russian, and Cossack, it seems) and battle re-enactment. Plenty of non-mentally ill dopes dress up and do Civil War re-enactment all the time. So what if he was a little obsessive/eccentric about it and liked to dress up in old uniforms? Is it, at its face, that much weirder than goth or punk kids?
I'm assuming here that he was not, in fact, obsessed with Nazis in an admiration of their ideals or a neo-Nazi kind of way -- I haven't seen anything written that would suggest that. That being said, as everyone else has said, if the officers told him repeatedly to drop his weapon, and he didn't. Well... that was a huge, lethal mistake.
I do wonder why Tasers are not an option when a gun is involved. I was under the impression that this type of scenario (uncertain risk) would be the perfect one to use a taser. You're not certain whether the guy is actually a threat or not (as opposed to someone who is in fact shooting at the cops), so you incapacitate him with a Taser. They seem pretty effective to me...
I'm assuming here that he was not, in fact, obsessed with Nazis in an admiration of their ideals or a neo-Nazi kind of way -- I haven't seen anything written that would suggest that. That being said, as everyone else has said, if the officers told him repeatedly to drop his weapon, and he didn't. Well... that was a huge, lethal mistake.
I do wonder why Tasers are not an option when a gun is involved. I was under the impression that this type of scenario (uncertain risk) would be the perfect one to use a taser. You're not certain whether the guy is actually a threat or not (as opposed to someone who is in fact shooting at the cops), so you incapacitate him with a Taser. They seem pretty effective to me...
14
@ Julie in Chicago,
Tasers are not the end all answer, as the on-going controversies over their use in Canada and England have shown.
There was an article recently about how the various Taser models sometimes deliver lethal jolts despite their settings.
Often it seems that the people killed by cops are drunk or mentally ill. Shouldn't there be a better way to deal with them than opening fire??
Tasers are not the end all answer, as the on-going controversies over their use in Canada and England have shown.
There was an article recently about how the various Taser models sometimes deliver lethal jolts despite their settings.
Often it seems that the people killed by cops are drunk or mentally ill. Shouldn't there be a better way to deal with them than opening fire??
15
it's looking like he made an unfortunate decision in those last moments. since there was no knock, it sounds like the police were not set up yet, perhaps caught a little before they were ready with their best plan. or that he didn't know for certain there were cops outside.
but the clarification was good -- the police were told about the blanks. in cases like that, it's tough. it was a school, so do you plan to stop the "assassin" before columbine III, or do you try to find out if it's a drunk kid fooling around.
the whole thing makes me sad. and i still want to hear from any witnesses.
and though elenchos lack of sympathy bugs me a little, it's true, his friends should have done everything they could to stop him. i won't say they are at fault - we all make our own choices. but a little intervention may have been the difference between life and death in this case.
but the clarification was good -- the police were told about the blanks. in cases like that, it's tough. it was a school, so do you plan to stop the "assassin" before columbine III, or do you try to find out if it's a drunk kid fooling around.
the whole thing makes me sad. and i still want to hear from any witnesses.
and though elenchos lack of sympathy bugs me a little, it's true, his friends should have done everything they could to stop him. i won't say they are at fault - we all make our own choices. but a little intervention may have been the difference between life and death in this case.
16
Point a flashlight, wallet, or cellphone at a cop and they will shoot you.
Pointing a rifle may as well be an engraved invitation to be shot.
Pointing a rifle may as well be an engraved invitation to be shot.
19
Infrequent, I've had friends exactly like that: obsession with guns, or explosives, and binge drinking. I took a stand against that idiocy. I did not quietly sit by and say nothing, and I sure as fuck didn't help.
Ironically, based on what we know so far, the SPD were his only real friends, when they took his gun away. I'm getting the sense that everyone else thought he was merely amusing. Guess they were wrong, huh?
If an organized reenactment club accepted him, I'd be more willing to believe that he was harmless. But if they considered him too reckless, and he was forced to stage his own private "reenactments" with people who had lower standards, well...
I don't know. I'm asking. What's the story?
@18 -- Thanks. I missed that. So would he have switched to live rounds if he where drunk enough? Just wondering...
Ironically, based on what we know so far, the SPD were his only real friends, when they took his gun away. I'm getting the sense that everyone else thought he was merely amusing. Guess they were wrong, huh?
If an organized reenactment club accepted him, I'd be more willing to believe that he was harmless. But if they considered him too reckless, and he was forced to stage his own private "reenactments" with people who had lower standards, well...
I don't know. I'm asking. What's the story?
@18 -- Thanks. I missed that. So would he have switched to live rounds if he where drunk enough? Just wondering...
20
Early 20's is the prime age for manic break.
It could be that he was having symptoms of increased importance or even actually believed he was in the military and was defending himself.
If he had a known history of depression it is possible that he had swung into a mania -- disregarding social norms (firing weapons in the street)
I'm not trying to diagnose I am just really trying to understand how the fuck this guy could let so many details of reality and proper behavior get out of his grasp.
When will the autopsy results be in to find out if he was drunk?
It could be that he was having symptoms of increased importance or even actually believed he was in the military and was defending himself.
If he had a known history of depression it is possible that he had swung into a mania -- disregarding social norms (firing weapons in the street)
I'm not trying to diagnose I am just really trying to understand how the fuck this guy could let so many details of reality and proper behavior get out of his grasp.
When will the autopsy results be in to find out if he was drunk?
21
i really don't know... perhaps your experiences have shaped your view on this, just as mine have. was he a binge drinker? did he try to join any re-enactment groups? was he admitted or not? was the live ammo his -- or for that rifle? was he out of control ... or was this night a surprise to even him?
yeah, if i had a friend who got trashed and started playing with a gun, i would not be comfortable nor cool with it. i would just about tackle him if i knew there were police outside and he headed for the door.
but i wasn't there, and i don't know all the details. this is a sad happening. i'm not sure yet how easily it could have been avoided. was he on course to self-destruct? could friends have intervened? could the police modified their response? could anything have been done differently?
but i'm still a little ticked the original information disseminated played up the nazi angle -- tainting opinions on this. we were waiting for an update, andas the pro-police usually like to say, what have you got to hide?
yeah, if i had a friend who got trashed and started playing with a gun, i would not be comfortable nor cool with it. i would just about tackle him if i knew there were police outside and he headed for the door.
but i wasn't there, and i don't know all the details. this is a sad happening. i'm not sure yet how easily it could have been avoided. was he on course to self-destruct? could friends have intervened? could the police modified their response? could anything have been done differently?
but i'm still a little ticked the original information disseminated played up the nazi angle -- tainting opinions on this. we were waiting for an update, andas the pro-police usually like to say, what have you got to hide?
22
hear there is a wake where you can only get in wearing a uniform carrying an old Army rifle - or AK-47, I think is OK too, as well as Lugers
is this true?
by the way, my gaydar went off, look at the pictures of this eccentric young man
is this true?
by the way, my gaydar went off, look at the pictures of this eccentric young man
23
Whatever the specifics in this particular case, whenever the police use lethal force, it's a setback for them and it limits their ability to deal with the people they're supposed to be protecting because they lose (have lost?) the public's trust.
Hell, I would only call the police as an absolute last resort. It seems they just make the situation worse.
Hell, I would only call the police as an absolute last resort. It seems they just make the situation worse.
24
differing views lead us to different questions:
you ask: was he about to switch to live ammo?
i ask: did the police really identify themselves and order he drop the weapon multiple times?
i will agree, however, that your question is a great concern, too.
you ask: was he about to switch to live ammo?
i ask: did the police really identify themselves and order he drop the weapon multiple times?
i will agree, however, that your question is a great concern, too.
25
Did Kerlikowske say if any of his statements were based on witness testimony? Or is this just the cops' side of the story?
27
"[Neighbor Mike] Kedziora said [to the Seattle Times] he heard confusion outside and could hear police warning the man to drop his weapon. A few minutes later, they watched out the window as the wounded neighbor was taken away and SWAT teams searched the neighborhood."
"Uniformed police officers warned Murphy several times to drop his weapon" according to police spokesman Jeff Kappel.
"Uniformed police officers warned Murphy several times to drop his weapon" according to police spokesman Jeff Kappel.
28
The cops did what cops are trained to do. I don't like most of 'em, but in this case they seem to have responded appropriately. Yes, the young man probably was harmless. Probably. But how exactly were the police to know by his behavior (also witnessed by his neighbors) that he was harmless?
This young man is dead because his friends and family seem to just shrug off his dangerous, silly, and inappropriate behavior as "eccentric". They turned a blind eye to a very unsafe combination of alcohol (& possibly drugs), depression, and guns. Now he's dead and they are ranting about the "pigs" and injustice. Perhaps if they cared so very much about their friend they should have done something before he got killed.
p.s. That picture of him riding the horse in uniform looks pretty Nazi-like to me. I'm sure the neighbors were afraid of him before he and his pals decided to make-believe shoot up the neighborhood. And don't a lot of Jewish folk live around there? This kid was lacking in common sense and good taste all around (even while sober)...and so were his friends who keep passing it off as "eccentric".
This young man is dead because his friends and family seem to just shrug off his dangerous, silly, and inappropriate behavior as "eccentric". They turned a blind eye to a very unsafe combination of alcohol (& possibly drugs), depression, and guns. Now he's dead and they are ranting about the "pigs" and injustice. Perhaps if they cared so very much about their friend they should have done something before he got killed.
p.s. That picture of him riding the horse in uniform looks pretty Nazi-like to me. I'm sure the neighbors were afraid of him before he and his pals decided to make-believe shoot up the neighborhood. And don't a lot of Jewish folk live around there? This kid was lacking in common sense and good taste all around (even while sober)...and so were his friends who keep passing it off as "eccentric".
29
Of course people/friends are going to say ~ZOMG~ THE POLICE DINT IDENTIFY THEMSELVES
~ZOMG~ he would have never pointed a rifle!!!!
friends will always say that.
The fact is that neighbors were interviewed and reported hearing the (uniformed) police ordering him to drop the weapon a number of times.
then the friends say ~zomg~ the neighbors are liars.
it's textbook defensiveness and fingerpointing.
~ZOMG~ he would have never pointed a rifle!!!!
friends will always say that.
The fact is that neighbors were interviewed and reported hearing the (uniformed) police ordering him to drop the weapon a number of times.
then the friends say ~zomg~ the neighbors are liars.
it's textbook defensiveness and fingerpointing.
30
Did this guy think the uniformed police officers were in on his war game????????? That some of his disgusting friends found some more contemporary uniforms?
31
Drunk or not, wearing a Nazi uniform or not, shooting blanks or not, any cop in the country would have shot this kid if he pointed a bayonetted rifle at them at 2:00am. As they should.
I'm sorry he's dead. It really is unfortunate. But he has nobody to blame but himself.
I'm sorry he's dead. It really is unfortunate. But he has nobody to blame but himself.
32
Original Andrew - What do the police in other countries do if you point a rifle at them and refuse to put it down? Do they duck? Do they let you get a shot off first? Please enlighten.
33
I hate to sound like an insensitive prick here, but if you POINT A GUN AT THE POLICE THEY'RE GOING TO SHOOT YOU.
34
i agree with elenchos, where were his buddies when he walked out of his door carrying that weapon? we know of at least two men that were in the house and from other reports it sounds like there were more people. not one of those people, supposedly his friends, stood up to say, "put the fuckin' gun down before you go out there?"
35
@ Original Andrew @18:
Are there no workhouses, are there no prisons? Seriously, with the mass de-funding and closing of mental institutions, there is no place for the mentally ill to go but halfway houses and homeless shelters. Granted, this guy probably wasn't a candidate, but having the mentally ill stirred into the general population just means you have to be extra careful because the dangerous ones don't all wear Napoleon hats or mouth guards.
Often it seems that the people killed by cops are drunk or mentally ill. Shouldn't there be a better way to deal with them than opening fire??
Are there no workhouses, are there no prisons? Seriously, with the mass de-funding and closing of mental institutions, there is no place for the mentally ill to go but halfway houses and homeless shelters. Granted, this guy probably wasn't a candidate, but having the mentally ill stirred into the general population just means you have to be extra careful because the dangerous ones don't all wear Napoleon hats or mouth guards.
36
I can't imagine him being intent on killing himself in the midst of what sounds like news years celebration. As stupid a thing to do as it was, I can't imagine they were firing off their guns for anything other than having fun. Further, I doubt they intended on attracting police for the purpose of setting up a firing squad for Mr. Murphy... its simply unfathomable.
It sounds like he was wasted beyond comprehension. Keep in mind the context. I mean, what better night to drink excessively?
The suicide angle just doesn't make the cut. Are we to expect everyone in their early twenties with a love for drinking/partying and a few emotional imperfections to kill themselves?
It sounds like he was wasted beyond comprehension. Keep in mind the context. I mean, what better night to drink excessively?
The suicide angle just doesn't make the cut. Are we to expect everyone in their early twenties with a love for drinking/partying and a few emotional imperfections to kill themselves?
37
LSD - not Jack Daniels....
sad, only one person made major mistakes, the dead guy
his friends are idiots, too polite to read him the riot act about his behavior, shit on those phony feel good friends - he was a trinket on the trinket shelf - not a human with some behavior problems
the new American middle class way of dealing
and this guy was no kid, SENIOR in college is a bit beyond childhood, smart student, stupid in real life
sad, he was cute, and as someone commented, looks VERY queer to me - maybe that was the driving force behind his depression - his true queer self with, so he thought, no path to come out ???
by the way that old rifle with live ammo will kill a moose quite nicely
sad, RIP dear Sojournner, perhaps, all is finally well in your current dimension
sad, only one person made major mistakes, the dead guy
his friends are idiots, too polite to read him the riot act about his behavior, shit on those phony feel good friends - he was a trinket on the trinket shelf - not a human with some behavior problems
the new American middle class way of dealing
and this guy was no kid, SENIOR in college is a bit beyond childhood, smart student, stupid in real life
sad, he was cute, and as someone commented, looks VERY queer to me - maybe that was the driving force behind his depression - his true queer self with, so he thought, no path to come out ???
by the way that old rifle with live ammo will kill a moose quite nicely
sad, RIP dear Sojournner, perhaps, all is finally well in your current dimension
38
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40
@37: What behavior are you talking about? His unusually obsession with history? I was thinking something similar, that he needed to be sat down and scolded for his every discrepancy before he was allowed to do this to himself. He should have been wearing stuff from the Gap, playing football instead of reenacting wars, studying business instead of foreign cultures. Just be normal. Kind of like the Japanese proverb... hammer down the nail that which sticks out the furthest.
Our youth is becoming too weak and liberal. This is a perfect example of open mindedness reaching its failing point... with needlessly fatal results.
Our youth is becoming too weak and liberal. This is a perfect example of open mindedness reaching its failing point... with needlessly fatal results.
42
It's funny how people like #40, when being facetious, leave out all the vital details like "dressing up like a nazi?" "shooting a gun off in the city?"
43
After reading his myspace page (posted in yesterday's thread somewhere), it seems pretty tragic to me. He was into vintage military costumes period, not just Nazi ones, so I think playing up the Nazi thing isn't the right story. Playing with guns and drinking abusively all the time is obviously not a safe hobby, but people are self-destructive in lots of different ways, I wouldn't just dismiss this kid as too stupid to know cops shoot to kill. Maybe he was on Prozac or some antidepressant you shouldn't combine with alcohol. I gotta say I feel sorry for the cops in this situation too. Cops have to make some shitty choices...I can't even decide what cookies to buy at the supermarket in less than five minutes.
46
Listen up, internet. I want to clear the air here before anything I have said or will say gets misconstrued. What I meant today when I spoke with Jonah is that we had been through similar life experiences as Miles had (you know, the normal fresh adult business, such as break ups, "so-and-so said this" banter, career uncertainty, yada-yada... we've all been there). I also said to Jonah that we could all, as Miles' friends, identify with these types of feelings. To reiterate, I would encourage everyone not to speculate about these factors. I would never suggest that Miles wanted this, and furthermore I wouldn't suggest that the policeman are murderers. As easy as it is to cobble together miscellaneous bits of information to create a dramatic piece of news, I would hesitate to ascribe the causes of the events that led to Miles' death to any singular source. I understand how journalism goes, and I understand that it's any reporter's inclination to write a compelling piece, especially in these sorts of situations. To the readers: take anything you see in the media with a grain for salt. Read it with as much objectivity as possible. Don't try to make up something that makes sense to you. It doesn't even make sense to those of us that know Miles. To the reporters (and Jonah, I'm not saying that you have misrepresented me): please do not reinterpret our words in order to generate a more captivating narrative. If we had seen this coming, I can assure you that not a single one of us would have sat back and allowed it to happen. In fact, the last time I saw Miles on the Sunday after Christmas, he was in good spirits. Make all the assumptions you want, but let it be known that none of us are going to contribute to any sort of speculative conclusions or to the formulation of false explanations for these tragic events. As it stands, this is simply (or not-so-simply) a series of extraordinary misunderstandings that ended in the death of Miles Murphy. I can speak for all of us when I say that our thoughts go out to Miles' family, his friends, the witnesses, and to all of the authorities that are currently involved in this horrific tragedy.
Goodnight all. Rest in peace, Miles. We'll miss you.
-Andrew J.
More...
Goodnight all. Rest in peace, Miles. We'll miss you.
-Andrew J.
47
taser probably would not have worked in this case. Tasers have a failure rate of some 32% when subject has on thick or baggy clothing. I suspect that german military uniform with a heavy overcoat (as was reported in the papers) would be too thick.
Also, both probes need to hit the subject and would require close range firing of the taser (at 18' the probe spread is 30"); I'm not sure how close the officers were in this instance but Miles wasn't that big of a target and he had on thick clothing. What if he wasn't shooting blanks and the tasers missed or were ineffective....
Also, both probes need to hit the subject and would require close range firing of the taser (at 18' the probe spread is 30"); I'm not sure how close the officers were in this instance but Miles wasn't that big of a target and he had on thick clothing. What if he wasn't shooting blanks and the tasers missed or were ineffective....
48
@12 the reason is that America is built on violence at least as much as on ideals. At every significant turn in our country's history the path chosen has almost always been the violent one - even more than the one that makes the most money - though a lot of times they go hand in hand. So yeah it's small wonder that violence - by police or citizens - is the norm here. In my high school days (circa 1979) there were no school shootings and no one had heard of the phrase "going postal". Now days most high school students expect guns in school. WTF!! So violence . . . by the police and everybody else . . . yeah, welcome to America. (very sad)
49
Andrew, your first mistake was talking to the biggest failure in local Media: Jonah S.L.
You probably didn't now this at the time, but he really really sucks.
You probably didn't now this at the time, but he really really sucks.
51
That's another witness, speaking to the P-I, who corroborates that the police issued several warnings before shooting. There are quite a few posts on various blogs claiming to be Miles Murphy's friends, happily slandering the police even though they weren't there. And then whining how unjust it was to call him a neo-Nazi. So whatever. Stay classy.
We've still heard nothing from the ones who were there in the apartment with Murphy. That's where the story is, not everyone who wants to gush about how he was sweet, kind, shy, intelligent, and ever so gentle. I mean, it's wonderful that he was witty and all, but what can you tell us about his relationship with alcohol and guns? Because that's why he's dead; they didn't shoot him for being sweet and shy.
"I had to listen to that man being shot, and I am sick about it all," said the resident, who was among witnesses taken downtown to police headquarters that night to give statements. "The police account corresponds with what I heard. I heard the officers give him shouted directions about putting the rifle down, not touching it, several times. And then when they did fire it was ... about six or eight all at once. To me it sounded like a volley of shots rather than a succession. I'm guessing it was the two officers with rifles who shot him."
That's another witness, speaking to the P-I, who corroborates that the police issued several warnings before shooting. There are quite a few posts on various blogs claiming to be Miles Murphy's friends, happily slandering the police even though they weren't there. And then whining how unjust it was to call him a neo-Nazi. So whatever. Stay classy.
We've still heard nothing from the ones who were there in the apartment with Murphy. That's where the story is, not everyone who wants to gush about how he was sweet, kind, shy, intelligent, and ever so gentle. I mean, it's wonderful that he was witty and all, but what can you tell us about his relationship with alcohol and guns? Because that's why he's dead; they didn't shoot him for being sweet and shy.
52
i really would rather our system be better -- if a better were possible.
this young guy made a couple unwise decisions that left him dead, and put police, friends, and family through an emotionally difficult situation. his behavior, unfortunately, seemed to have left the police little other choice.
what i take from this is that i'd rather there be an alternative to police having to shoot in such situations. perhaps there is none. but so few police die each year from these types of situations, maybe there are some modifications that can be made. perhaps not. i just look forward to the time when there are other options.
and people still jump to conclusions, are easily manipulated, judge before they have all the information, and let their biases regarding what is normal and not dictate their judgments of others.
it's very sad.
this young guy made a couple unwise decisions that left him dead, and put police, friends, and family through an emotionally difficult situation. his behavior, unfortunately, seemed to have left the police little other choice.
what i take from this is that i'd rather there be an alternative to police having to shoot in such situations. perhaps there is none. but so few police die each year from these types of situations, maybe there are some modifications that can be made. perhaps not. i just look forward to the time when there are other options.
and people still jump to conclusions, are easily manipulated, judge before they have all the information, and let their biases regarding what is normal and not dictate their judgments of others.
it's very sad.
53
@48 There were actually a few school shootings in the 70's and there was almost a third more violent crime in 79 then there is today.
58
when police shoot someone, they are usually justified.
now some people are acting like most people were saying this guy was completely innocent.... but look at the posts. there seemed to be quite a bit of "he was a nazi" "he deserved" "he hated america" "point a gun at police and you'll die" posts. i didn't count them, but i got the feeling there were way more of those posts then posts saying he was completely innocent.
i didn't really even feel like posting that much, until i saw how many reckless comments there were about this student based on the initial report, and the unfounded conclusions people were jumping to. some of those conclusions turned out to be true -- as some must always -- and others as inaccurate.
many of the counter posts just wanted the complete story -- and didn't like how the student was so vilified. so take your smug satisfaction that a drunk youth did something really stupid and died. i still prefer to get all the information before judging, use that information to make better choices in the future, and still choose to be saddened by this, though likely, and unfortunately, justified action.
now some people are acting like most people were saying this guy was completely innocent.... but look at the posts. there seemed to be quite a bit of "he was a nazi" "he deserved" "he hated america" "point a gun at police and you'll die" posts. i didn't count them, but i got the feeling there were way more of those posts then posts saying he was completely innocent.
i didn't really even feel like posting that much, until i saw how many reckless comments there were about this student based on the initial report, and the unfounded conclusions people were jumping to. some of those conclusions turned out to be true -- as some must always -- and others as inaccurate.
many of the counter posts just wanted the complete story -- and didn't like how the student was so vilified. so take your smug satisfaction that a drunk youth did something really stupid and died. i still prefer to get all the information before judging, use that information to make better choices in the future, and still choose to be saddened by this, though likely, and unfortunately, justified action.
60
Yeah, spoofing. Good one. I'm sure that's going to help.
Why don't you guys just say what happened? If you were there.
Why don't you guys just say what happened? If you were there.
62
Please remember you are talking about an actual person that you don't know, making insensitive remarks about their death while those who actually do know him are grieving. I knew Miles and his family and for those of us who actually knew him and don't have to speculate about his personality, regardless of the situation...even the most insensitive variations. This is a tragedy. i just ask that you be mindful and respectful of the loss that we now share.
64
That would be Fnark who just fucked up you computer and mine too. Fnarf is an altogether different and good guy.
PLEASE DO NOT CLICK ON THE LINKS IN #38 ABOVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
OVER 200 DISGUSTING POPUPS THAT CAN'T BE STOPPED WITH MY FIREFOX POPUP BLOCKER!
(of course, disgusting is usually a subjective term, but not so much in this case.)
PLEASE DO NOT CLICK ON THE LINKS IN #38 ABOVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
OVER 200 DISGUSTING POPUPS THAT CAN'T BE STOPPED WITH MY FIREFOX POPUP BLOCKER!
(of course, disgusting is usually a subjective term, but not so much in this case.)
65
@51: The police themselves have suggested that Miles owned only one gun, which he used for war reenactments. As far as alcohol is concerned, it sounds like Miles was indeed a heavy drinker...
66
for those who know - was the dead, shy, sensitive, so sweet type fellow, was he gay?
have a big bet going ... nothing sinister
have a big bet going ... nothing sinister
67
I've heard that the news that this kid was firing blanks was made on the night of the shooting, is anyone aware if this comment was made before or after the incident?
Not that it really matters, just a curiosity.
Not that it really matters, just a curiosity.
68
elenchos -- why don't you tell me what happened? tell me again how none of his friends tried to stop him. tell me again how he has a problem with drinking. tell me again how he was not admitted (or kicked out) or re-enactment groups. tell me again how he was on his way to load live ammunition when the police arrived. and, since you were there, tell me how many times the police told him to drop the weapon. my favorite, of course, is how you -- and the neighbors -- all saw him point the gun at the police.
you need to get off your high horse.... we all have pretty much the same, limited information, and draw from our experiences and knowledge of past events to come to a conclusion.
in this case, the more i hear, the more it sounds like the shooting was an unfortunate necessity. but people who knew this guy, or other guys like him, this is difficult to accept. all i've ever asked for is more information, and more witness accounts. i understand that that is what you are, in effect, saying as well. that if you weren't there, you can't say what he did or didn't do. but you include enough of your opinion to taint the discussion as well.
(ps- go easy on me if you are bored enough to reply -- i know you are smarter than me!)
you need to get off your high horse.... we all have pretty much the same, limited information, and draw from our experiences and knowledge of past events to come to a conclusion.
in this case, the more i hear, the more it sounds like the shooting was an unfortunate necessity. but people who knew this guy, or other guys like him, this is difficult to accept. all i've ever asked for is more information, and more witness accounts. i understand that that is what you are, in effect, saying as well. that if you weren't there, you can't say what he did or didn't do. but you include enough of your opinion to taint the discussion as well.
(ps- go easy on me if you are bored enough to reply -- i know you are smarter than me!)
69
Was he wearing the Nazi uniform at the moment of his death? Because if he did, the cops were right to shoot him, rifle or not.
70
Infrequent, I keep asking what happened because I don't know. I would like nothing more than to hear from those who actually know what happened.
I think it's great how people who weren't there are totally free to speculate wildly about what the cops did wrong, and make up any vicious bullshit they want about them. Because cops are fair game. But anyone who questions the sketchy and suspect story pushed by whoever is so obsessed with these online forums had better be careful. See, the cops don't have friends, or family, or feelings, only Miles Murphy.
I still haven't heard one word about anyone doing one single thing to prevent this, except when the police tried to keep his gun away from him. And even for that they get no thanks, only abuse.
Why don't you ask the ones making unfounded accusations against the police to get off their high horse?
I think it's great how people who weren't there are totally free to speculate wildly about what the cops did wrong, and make up any vicious bullshit they want about them. Because cops are fair game. But anyone who questions the sketchy and suspect story pushed by whoever is so obsessed with these online forums had better be careful. See, the cops don't have friends, or family, or feelings, only Miles Murphy.
I still haven't heard one word about anyone doing one single thing to prevent this, except when the police tried to keep his gun away from him. And even for that they get no thanks, only abuse.
Why don't you ask the ones making unfounded accusations against the police to get off their high horse?
72
Lol!
I believe we are entering an era when Police will finally be free to shoot any Univeristy Student they want to.
A lot of Univeristy Students today are anti-Israel war protestors. This is yet another kind of mental illness. In the 1960's the President was able to order the military onto campuses to kill students who wouldn't obey orders.
Obama is going to create a national para-military security force to patrol America. These military police will be able to shoot as many Univeristy Students as necessary to calm down the anti-war protests. This is as it should be.
We all must stand behind Israel. All Seattle Jews should be pro-police and pro-war. I am glad to read so many pro-police postings in The Stranger. It's a welcome change.
Also anyone who studies German language or history is a Christian idiot and deservs to die.
I say let's thank the Seattle Police for ridding this town of one more Christian idiot.
I believe we are entering an era when Police will finally be free to shoot any Univeristy Student they want to.
A lot of Univeristy Students today are anti-Israel war protestors. This is yet another kind of mental illness. In the 1960's the President was able to order the military onto campuses to kill students who wouldn't obey orders.
Obama is going to create a national para-military security force to patrol America. These military police will be able to shoot as many Univeristy Students as necessary to calm down the anti-war protests. This is as it should be.
We all must stand behind Israel. All Seattle Jews should be pro-police and pro-war. I am glad to read so many pro-police postings in The Stranger. It's a welcome change.
Also anyone who studies German language or history is a Christian idiot and deservs to die.
I say let's thank the Seattle Police for ridding this town of one more Christian idiot.
74
Miles was a very intelligent and very reasonable guy. He may have been depressed but who isn't at some point in college...or in their lives. being depressed is not the same as being suicidal.
He did collect Nazi memorabilia, but he also collected things from 1920s as well as Kozak and Scottish outfits from the times past. What he believed in or not, what views he held or didn't hold is all irrelevant. What should be under the spotlight is the fact that the police shot him SEVEN times. Not one in the hand or the foot, to confuse him and to take his bayonet away, but seven times. This seems like an overreaction. Shooting should have been a last option. If the police officers used a little intelligence and a little patience he would have given in easily. He was a reasonable, mild tempered guy, and I suspect that he was just confused by the whole situation and would have cooperated given a little time. It is very sad to lose someone like Miles. He was very smart, and interesting....truly this was a tragedy that didn't need to happen. If there is any justice the police officers will be punished and forced to retire. But I suspect this will not happen, but rather the police department will try to protect itself regardless of the wrongs the officers have done.
He did collect Nazi memorabilia, but he also collected things from 1920s as well as Kozak and Scottish outfits from the times past. What he believed in or not, what views he held or didn't hold is all irrelevant. What should be under the spotlight is the fact that the police shot him SEVEN times. Not one in the hand or the foot, to confuse him and to take his bayonet away, but seven times. This seems like an overreaction. Shooting should have been a last option. If the police officers used a little intelligence and a little patience he would have given in easily. He was a reasonable, mild tempered guy, and I suspect that he was just confused by the whole situation and would have cooperated given a little time. It is very sad to lose someone like Miles. He was very smart, and interesting....truly this was a tragedy that didn't need to happen. If there is any justice the police officers will be punished and forced to retire. But I suspect this will not happen, but rather the police department will try to protect itself regardless of the wrongs the officers have done.
76
Ignorance!!! Never ceases to amaze me how SHALLOW people are, and how easily they CONSUME a pre-fabricated “opinion” with out spending a SECOND to think for them selves and to actually LOOK into the issue, and that is precisely why MEDIA gets away with BRAINWASHING so easily.
The guy was not wearing a Nazi uniform, it was a German Wermaht uniform, a picture of which you can actually see on his ms page, which is one of MANY different costumes and uniforms that he had. He was a history senior in UW, and had absolutely no links to any kind of neo-nazi group.
He was a member of a historical re-enactment community, just like the red-necks that dress up and reenact civil war battles.
The rifle he was holding was a standard issue Mouser 98 with a bayonet, he was shooting BLANKS, and that’s exactly what he was trying to say to the “officers” when they as usual began BLASTING first and asking questions later.
Allen Murphy was fatally struck by SEVEN bullets, and it is currently not know how many shots in total both “officers” actually fired, but statistically when they shoot they empty their magazines and continue to shoot to KILL, because that’s how they are TRAINED.
Let me repeat it, “police officers” are OFFICIALLY TRAINED to shoot to KILL ONLY, meaning that when they draw their weapons, they are in the KILL mode, and will empty their magazines once they begin to fire. No other civilized nation in the world trains their CIVILIAN officers for KILL shots, and US has the WORLDS HIGHEST rate of police shooting deaths.
So let me explain this one because it’s no different from the ever repeating cycle of government sanctioned murder; cops showed up to find a guy in a uniform holding a rifle with a bayonet, yelled “drop it” and opened fire, and that’s exactly what the witnesses have clearly stated.
“Ray was at his computer in his hallway, directly above the basement stairwell, when he heard officers identify themselves and order Murphy to drop the weapon.
He then heard shots.
"It seemed to happen super, super fast," Ray said.
"I don't know if he was stunned, and not used to the police yelling at him or what, but he might have just froze," Ray said.”
Oh, did I mention that this tragedy took place in Ravena? “The” Jewish neighborhood of Seattle? And that certain neighbors were witnessed yelling at the guy for wearing a German uniform?
Keep gloating you ignorant fools. I hope that one day you’ll get to know how it feels when an armed cop hopped up on adrenaline is barking at you while pointing his gun at your heads, so have fun “cooperating” and “obeying” instructions. Maybe then somebody will wonder where the expression “like a deer in headlights” and “never knew what hit him” came from.
More...
The guy was not wearing a Nazi uniform, it was a German Wermaht uniform, a picture of which you can actually see on his ms page, which is one of MANY different costumes and uniforms that he had. He was a history senior in UW, and had absolutely no links to any kind of neo-nazi group.
He was a member of a historical re-enactment community, just like the red-necks that dress up and reenact civil war battles.
The rifle he was holding was a standard issue Mouser 98 with a bayonet, he was shooting BLANKS, and that’s exactly what he was trying to say to the “officers” when they as usual began BLASTING first and asking questions later.
Allen Murphy was fatally struck by SEVEN bullets, and it is currently not know how many shots in total both “officers” actually fired, but statistically when they shoot they empty their magazines and continue to shoot to KILL, because that’s how they are TRAINED.
Let me repeat it, “police officers” are OFFICIALLY TRAINED to shoot to KILL ONLY, meaning that when they draw their weapons, they are in the KILL mode, and will empty their magazines once they begin to fire. No other civilized nation in the world trains their CIVILIAN officers for KILL shots, and US has the WORLDS HIGHEST rate of police shooting deaths.
So let me explain this one because it’s no different from the ever repeating cycle of government sanctioned murder; cops showed up to find a guy in a uniform holding a rifle with a bayonet, yelled “drop it” and opened fire, and that’s exactly what the witnesses have clearly stated.
“Ray was at his computer in his hallway, directly above the basement stairwell, when he heard officers identify themselves and order Murphy to drop the weapon.
He then heard shots.
"It seemed to happen super, super fast," Ray said.
"I don't know if he was stunned, and not used to the police yelling at him or what, but he might have just froze," Ray said.”
Oh, did I mention that this tragedy took place in Ravena? “The” Jewish neighborhood of Seattle? And that certain neighbors were witnessed yelling at the guy for wearing a German uniform?
Keep gloating you ignorant fools. I hope that one day you’ll get to know how it feels when an armed cop hopped up on adrenaline is barking at you while pointing his gun at your heads, so have fun “cooperating” and “obeying” instructions. Maybe then somebody will wonder where the expression “like a deer in headlights” and “never knew what hit him” came from.
77
Like so many others, I've had a hard time making sense of the circumstances of this incident. For example, why would anyone, drunk or not, knowingly emerge to meet policemen with a rifle? Why would he point it at them? It would take a death wish. Because I live in the area I couldn't help but to go view the scene where the shooting took place. I had originally assumed that this morbid curiosity would be inconsequential. However, after getting a good look at the stairwell, the bullet holes, and subsequently a good sense of the trajectory of the bullets, I can't help but bring several new considerations to the discourse.
The bottom of the staircase where Miles was shot is completely enclosed except for the stairs leading up towards the police. I believe this is relevant because of the sizable length of his bayoneted rifle (which appears to be about four and a half feet long.) Having stood at the bottom of those stairs, with the bullet holes to my back, the only convenient direction to set a weapon of that length down is forward -- toward the police. I do not believe it to be possible to position a weapon of that length in any way approaching perpendicular to the policemen. Also, to make matters worse, setting the weapon down on the stairs leading up towards the policemen also happens to result with the weapon pointing in the "general direction" of the policemen above.
I feel that these considerations are important because they provide a reason for why Mr. Murphy ended up pointing his rifle in the direction of the policemen other than accusations of insanity, stupidity, suicide, etc. Having stood there, I can safely say it would be a complicated task to maneuver that rifle appropriately even while sober. I imagine, at the very least, it may have added unneeded confusion to a moment requiring swift compliance.
More...
The bottom of the staircase where Miles was shot is completely enclosed except for the stairs leading up towards the police. I believe this is relevant because of the sizable length of his bayoneted rifle (which appears to be about four and a half feet long.) Having stood at the bottom of those stairs, with the bullet holes to my back, the only convenient direction to set a weapon of that length down is forward -- toward the police. I do not believe it to be possible to position a weapon of that length in any way approaching perpendicular to the policemen. Also, to make matters worse, setting the weapon down on the stairs leading up towards the policemen also happens to result with the weapon pointing in the "general direction" of the policemen above.
I feel that these considerations are important because they provide a reason for why Mr. Murphy ended up pointing his rifle in the direction of the policemen other than accusations of insanity, stupidity, suicide, etc. Having stood there, I can safely say it would be a complicated task to maneuver that rifle appropriately even while sober. I imagine, at the very least, it may have added unneeded confusion to a moment requiring swift compliance.
78
I found a picture of the stairwell in the 49th second of this news clip (hope it works). I think everyone who has suggested that Miles was stupid for "aiming at police" should see that picture before jumping to conclusions. It may not have been so intentional. Spice up the situation with angry yells, flashlights (which makes me wonder if Miles could actually have made eye contact as reported by the policemen), and surprise (It is my personal speculation that Miles exited the building without knowledge of police presence, which answers my personal question about why he would re-exit the building with his rifle.)
Seriously though: Stop at the still at second 49 in the video. You can see where the bullets hit the wall at the bottom of the stairs too. Also note that the perspective of the picture is probably very similar to that of the policemen.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYRkpqa3O… ://news.google.com/news?q=miles+murphy&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=f
Seriously though: Stop at the still at second 49 in the video. You can see where the bullets hit the wall at the bottom of the stairs too. Also note that the perspective of the picture is probably very similar to that of the policemen.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYRkpqa3O… ://news.google.com/news?q=miles+murphy&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=f
79
From descriptions, it seems like this guy was a nice and smart kid, who had a massive lapse in judgment. He had a rifle, that may or may not have been filled with blanks, and he refused to put it down. The police have to consider their own safety. They can't go into situations hoping that the guy holding the gun isn't a threat to them. I know it's hard in the face of a tragedy, but you have to be reasonable about whose fault this was.
80
@77, @78
He should have slowly lowered the butt of the rifle to the ground and leaned it against the wall, without even ever so slightly letting the barrel point towards the police, and then backed against the opposite wall and kept his body and especially his hands as far away form it as he could. And prayed for luck, because he'd put himself in a deadly fix with his blunder.
That's what someone with training would have done. Someone who had respect for firearms and understood that what the police do is not a game. The fact that he even touched that gun after drinking, and the fact that he was shooting blanks in a city, and the fact that he even walked out the door carrying it tell us that he thought of that gun as a toy. Didn't he? Someone tell me anything that says Miles Murphy had any true respect for guns.
Was he a member of a real reenactment group? An actual member of an actual organization? As in, they trusted him to follow the rules and to not put anyone at risk? Because even blanks can kill people. Did he have any firearms training at all? He sounds unpredictable, and I have to ask, did anybody trust him with a gun?
Everyone keeps talking about how he was a nice guy. Kyle Huff was a nice guy. Ted Bundy was a nice guy. It's besides the point. Is there a shred of evidence that this was a person who should have been allowed anywhere near a gun, ever?
He should have slowly lowered the butt of the rifle to the ground and leaned it against the wall, without even ever so slightly letting the barrel point towards the police, and then backed against the opposite wall and kept his body and especially his hands as far away form it as he could. And prayed for luck, because he'd put himself in a deadly fix with his blunder.
That's what someone with training would have done. Someone who had respect for firearms and understood that what the police do is not a game. The fact that he even touched that gun after drinking, and the fact that he was shooting blanks in a city, and the fact that he even walked out the door carrying it tell us that he thought of that gun as a toy. Didn't he? Someone tell me anything that says Miles Murphy had any true respect for guns.
Was he a member of a real reenactment group? An actual member of an actual organization? As in, they trusted him to follow the rules and to not put anyone at risk? Because even blanks can kill people. Did he have any firearms training at all? He sounds unpredictable, and I have to ask, did anybody trust him with a gun?
Everyone keeps talking about how he was a nice guy. Kyle Huff was a nice guy. Ted Bundy was a nice guy. It's besides the point. Is there a shred of evidence that this was a person who should have been allowed anywhere near a gun, ever?
81
First rule of gun safety: all guns are to be assumed to be loaded with live ammunition, all the time. No exceptions. So, the fact that witnesses told the cops he had been firing blanks is irrevelevant -- they could have been lying, mistaken, or he might have reloaded with live ammo.
Second, even if the gun was unloaded, the real bayonet fixed to the end made it into a spear. Which, at the distances involved, is a quite deadly weapon all on its own.
Third, firearms + alcohol = lethal stupid.
Second, even if the gun was unloaded, the real bayonet fixed to the end made it into a spear. Which, at the distances involved, is a quite deadly weapon all on its own.
Third, firearms + alcohol = lethal stupid.
82
If you looked at the photos in the Seattle Times, the guy was clearly part of some reenactment club, as there are at least 5 different settings where he has different costumes and is with people with major props such as Russian army tents and sidecar motorcycles. I doubt that was all in his own back yard.
83
@82
I saw those pictures. Which club? When were those pictures taken? Is he currently a member? Does that club vouch for him?
I'm asking because I don't know, OK? If you have time to write 500 word essays on how he was witty and shy, can you take a sec to share some actual information?
I saw those pictures. Which club? When were those pictures taken? Is he currently a member? Does that club vouch for him?
I'm asking because I don't know, OK? If you have time to write 500 word essays on how he was witty and shy, can you take a sec to share some actual information?
84
Are you the only critical thinker here? I think these questions have occurred to everyone else.
Knowing whether he had an card membership for such a club is far less relevant than getting any information from witnesses about the position he was standing near the foyer of his door and the angle of the gun. And really, what are the chances that those couple people hang out online blogging. Beyond this, everyone here either has no inside information, or merely knew him as a coworker.
Do reenactment clubs tend to have problems with troublesome people applying, so they ofte have screening procedures to keep up their reputation?
Knowing whether he had an card membership for such a club is far less relevant than getting any information from witnesses about the position he was standing near the foyer of his door and the angle of the gun. And really, what are the chances that those couple people hang out online blogging. Beyond this, everyone here either has no inside information, or merely knew him as a coworker.
Do reenactment clubs tend to have problems with troublesome people applying, so they ofte have screening procedures to keep up their reputation?
86
@80: According to police reports he was confronted with the rifle pointed down. All I am saying is that if you consider the narrowness of the stairwell (it is a little more than shoulder width), it would be extremely difficult, perhaps impossible, to follow your instructions of positioning the rifle upwards (butt down) without muzzle pointing in the direction of the police on its way up. You may have been killed just as quickly by your own "trained" advice. Perhaps he was trying to do something similar to what you suggested, which may account for the police account of him beginning to raise and then lower back.
What he should have done was drop it immediately. Maybe he would have, I don't think he had much time to figure out that he couldn't set it down properly, underestimating the situation as the sole possessor of the knowledge of his harmlessness.
Otherwise, I do not know his relationship or training with his weapon except that he seemed to use them for reenactments. I don't think he truly understood the deadly potential of his weapon either, it was probably just another one of his artifacts from a bygone era.
What he should have done was drop it immediately. Maybe he would have, I don't think he had much time to figure out that he couldn't set it down properly, underestimating the situation as the sole possessor of the knowledge of his harmlessness.
Otherwise, I do not know his relationship or training with his weapon except that he seemed to use them for reenactments. I don't think he truly understood the deadly potential of his weapon either, it was probably just another one of his artifacts from a bygone era.
88
@86
Well then he could have put the barrel against the ground and leaned the butt up against the wall. Not the ideal way to put a gun down but it's better than being dead. Jesus. Common fucking sense.
I'm so sick of listening to excuses for clowns running around with guns. They took Kyle Huff's guns away and then gave them back. They gave Clinton Chad Grainger a concelaed weapons permit, and then gave him a slap on the wrist for shooting up Floklife because he didn't "intend" to shoot anybody. Naveed Haq was diagnosed with mental illness and the fucker still bought guns. They took Miles Murphy's gun away and then gave it back. It's bullshit. Pure bullshit.
How about this: people with a loose grip on reality and poor decision making skills should not have guns. When they insist on having them in spite of their limited common sense, don't make excuses for them. Why is it always the job of the police to put their own lives at risk to keep fools from harming themselves? Why is the burden on them instead of on Miles Murphy? He wasn't a child, even if he amused his friends by acting like a child.
Well then he could have put the barrel against the ground and leaned the butt up against the wall. Not the ideal way to put a gun down but it's better than being dead. Jesus. Common fucking sense.
I'm so sick of listening to excuses for clowns running around with guns. They took Kyle Huff's guns away and then gave them back. They gave Clinton Chad Grainger a concelaed weapons permit, and then gave him a slap on the wrist for shooting up Floklife because he didn't "intend" to shoot anybody. Naveed Haq was diagnosed with mental illness and the fucker still bought guns. They took Miles Murphy's gun away and then gave it back. It's bullshit. Pure bullshit.
How about this: people with a loose grip on reality and poor decision making skills should not have guns. When they insist on having them in spite of their limited common sense, don't make excuses for them. Why is it always the job of the police to put their own lives at risk to keep fools from harming themselves? Why is the burden on them instead of on Miles Murphy? He wasn't a child, even if he amused his friends by acting like a child.
89
One more time – Google “Stockholm syndrome”, because that’s the relationship between the American public and “enforcement” agencies.
Doesn’t matter how often and how brutally citizens (NOT criminals) are abused by “police”, does not matter how often “police” EXECUTE citizens (NOT criminals) on the streets of our country, the public “opinion” is a mirror image of an abused and battered wife!
THINK ABOUT IT! Police in our country are CONDITIONED by TRAINING to consider THEIR safety ABOVE the safety of the PUBLIC!!!!! It’s the OFFICIAL policy! Kind of like the informational pamphlet in the airplane, instructing you to place an oxygen mask before putting one on you own child.
For example, in case of injury to a police officer, the policy is to evacuate the officer BEFORE evacuation of any injured civilians regardless of the injury severity!!
DO YOU UNDERSTAND??!!!!!
They are NOT trained to PROTERCT YOU, they are trained to protect THEM SELVES while EXECUTING POLICY!
For crying out loud, pick up a pamphlet from any nurses office and read about the dynamics of an abuse relationships and domestic violence, and after giving your self a standard questioner test, ask your self a simple question, where will you find YOUSELF standing in the relationship between you and the police?
Are you afraid to find out, accept and live with the fact that police in our country are not here to “protect and serve”, but to “enforce and control”? And that to them you are simply a potential suspect (enemy) which is liable to shoot them with out warning, because that’s exactly how they are TRAIED TO TREAT YOU!?
WAKE the HELL UP!!! What, two terms of Bushes administration did not make it clear enough for you? National Guard troops policing New York during New Years is not enough? Do you really need them to wear Nazi uniforms and put up mandatory check point on freeway entrances before you’ll get it?
Our enforcement agencies use training which PITS their enforcers AGAINST the civilian population, so go ahead and look up what kind of government regimes use such training tactics to keep control of their population – TOTALITARIAN REGIMES!
And only in TOTALITARIAN REGIMES the people are so FRIGHTENED, that they casually approve and accept SYSTEMATIC brutality perpetrated upon them by their own government, and always repeat the SAME thing – “the only thing the victim had to do is COOPERATE with ORDERS of enforcement representatives, and if they would have done so, they would not be killed”
LISTEN TO YOUR SELVES!!!
I’ll repeat what you are saying, but only in FIRST PERSON - “if I don’t want to be KILLED, I have to do everything I’m told REGARDLESS of the situation and circumstances..”
Physiologically it’s an equivalent of “INSTINTANIOUS RESPOSE REFLEX”, and in this case it’s supposed to be a response to AUTHORITY, do you understand now?
When confronted by authority, regardless of the situation, in reality your “cooperation” is a physiological instantaneous response reflex of SUBMITION!
Just like DOGS you are conditioned to “sit” and “lay down” when told to, and to explore why and how that’s done, just Google “Pavlov dog” and THINK for your selves if you are treated as free people, or a bunch of cattle to heard around.
For crying out loud, I’m saddened and ASHAMED of what our FORMERLY FREE country has been turned into, to see people’s minds being so closed, frightened and controlled by the typical tools of an oppressive regime.
WAKE UP!!
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Doesn’t matter how often and how brutally citizens (NOT criminals) are abused by “police”, does not matter how often “police” EXECUTE citizens (NOT criminals) on the streets of our country, the public “opinion” is a mirror image of an abused and battered wife!
THINK ABOUT IT! Police in our country are CONDITIONED by TRAINING to consider THEIR safety ABOVE the safety of the PUBLIC!!!!! It’s the OFFICIAL policy! Kind of like the informational pamphlet in the airplane, instructing you to place an oxygen mask before putting one on you own child.
For example, in case of injury to a police officer, the policy is to evacuate the officer BEFORE evacuation of any injured civilians regardless of the injury severity!!
DO YOU UNDERSTAND??!!!!!
They are NOT trained to PROTERCT YOU, they are trained to protect THEM SELVES while EXECUTING POLICY!
For crying out loud, pick up a pamphlet from any nurses office and read about the dynamics of an abuse relationships and domestic violence, and after giving your self a standard questioner test, ask your self a simple question, where will you find YOUSELF standing in the relationship between you and the police?
Are you afraid to find out, accept and live with the fact that police in our country are not here to “protect and serve”, but to “enforce and control”? And that to them you are simply a potential suspect (enemy) which is liable to shoot them with out warning, because that’s exactly how they are TRAIED TO TREAT YOU!?
WAKE the HELL UP!!! What, two terms of Bushes administration did not make it clear enough for you? National Guard troops policing New York during New Years is not enough? Do you really need them to wear Nazi uniforms and put up mandatory check point on freeway entrances before you’ll get it?
Our enforcement agencies use training which PITS their enforcers AGAINST the civilian population, so go ahead and look up what kind of government regimes use such training tactics to keep control of their population – TOTALITARIAN REGIMES!
And only in TOTALITARIAN REGIMES the people are so FRIGHTENED, that they casually approve and accept SYSTEMATIC brutality perpetrated upon them by their own government, and always repeat the SAME thing – “the only thing the victim had to do is COOPERATE with ORDERS of enforcement representatives, and if they would have done so, they would not be killed”
LISTEN TO YOUR SELVES!!!
I’ll repeat what you are saying, but only in FIRST PERSON - “if I don’t want to be KILLED, I have to do everything I’m told REGARDLESS of the situation and circumstances..”
Physiologically it’s an equivalent of “INSTINTANIOUS RESPOSE REFLEX”, and in this case it’s supposed to be a response to AUTHORITY, do you understand now?
When confronted by authority, regardless of the situation, in reality your “cooperation” is a physiological instantaneous response reflex of SUBMITION!
Just like DOGS you are conditioned to “sit” and “lay down” when told to, and to explore why and how that’s done, just Google “Pavlov dog” and THINK for your selves if you are treated as free people, or a bunch of cattle to heard around.
For crying out loud, I’m saddened and ASHAMED of what our FORMERLY FREE country has been turned into, to see people’s minds being so closed, frightened and controlled by the typical tools of an oppressive regime.
WAKE UP!!
90
@86: Elenchos, having gone back and read your previous posts, its pretty obvious that you enjoy the role of the devil's advocate -- by providing the dubious spin on things, in this case. For that, I actually commend you because antithesis adds a broader range of perspective. However, your last post shows signs of both fallaciousness and bias - which I will now amend.
1. It is not common sense to rest a bayoneted rifle on the tip of its blade. In fact, I consider it to be common sense to rest the rifle on its butt, as you suggested yourself in post #80.
2. You are fallaciously linking Miles to public shootings when you mention him in the same breath as "clowns" such as Clinton Chad Gainger, Naveed Haq, and Kyle Huff. In fact, by all accounts, Miles never shot at anyone and showed no intention to do so. The police have confirmed that the weapon contained blanks. It is well established that he was shooting them off in celebration of NYE.
3. You are going out on a limb conjuring up suggestions of insanity or mental illness when you say that Miles had a "poor grip on reality." As far as I've read into the situation he was perfectly healthy -- he had an extensive network of friends, a stable job, and he excelled as a student at the most prestigious university in the state. In my mind, his passion as a collector and "history buff" does not constitute insanity. Obviously it was a poor decision to combine the gun and alcohol, but this one example of poor decision making seems more like an brief lapse of judgment than a permanent mental condition. Unless something emerges saying otherwise, I think it is safe to say that he managed to use his gun in reenactments without incident.
4. I was not providing excuses for any of Mile's actions, I was trying to provide objective context for why he pointed the rifle at the police instead of tossing around non sequiturs like "he was obviously insane" -- not unlike a monkey would his own feces. I have no agenda for sharing my observations, I wouldn't have mentioned them unless I thought that it was extremely relevant.
You are clearly quite passionate about the problem of public shootings, however I don't think the case of Miles Murphy is at all relevant. If you still think otherwise, I seriously suggest you put a lot more work into your argument before your continue your slander.
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1. It is not common sense to rest a bayoneted rifle on the tip of its blade. In fact, I consider it to be common sense to rest the rifle on its butt, as you suggested yourself in post #80.
2. You are fallaciously linking Miles to public shootings when you mention him in the same breath as "clowns" such as Clinton Chad Gainger, Naveed Haq, and Kyle Huff. In fact, by all accounts, Miles never shot at anyone and showed no intention to do so. The police have confirmed that the weapon contained blanks. It is well established that he was shooting them off in celebration of NYE.
3. You are going out on a limb conjuring up suggestions of insanity or mental illness when you say that Miles had a "poor grip on reality." As far as I've read into the situation he was perfectly healthy -- he had an extensive network of friends, a stable job, and he excelled as a student at the most prestigious university in the state. In my mind, his passion as a collector and "history buff" does not constitute insanity. Obviously it was a poor decision to combine the gun and alcohol, but this one example of poor decision making seems more like an brief lapse of judgment than a permanent mental condition. Unless something emerges saying otherwise, I think it is safe to say that he managed to use his gun in reenactments without incident.
4. I was not providing excuses for any of Mile's actions, I was trying to provide objective context for why he pointed the rifle at the police instead of tossing around non sequiturs like "he was obviously insane" -- not unlike a monkey would his own feces. I have no agenda for sharing my observations, I wouldn't have mentioned them unless I thought that it was extremely relevant.
You are clearly quite passionate about the problem of public shootings, however I don't think the case of Miles Murphy is at all relevant. If you still think otherwise, I seriously suggest you put a lot more work into your argument before your continue your slander.
91
Yeah, maybe I should stick to slandering the police instead. It's kind of funny isn't it? Tell lies on the internet all day long about the cops, and nothing happens, but dare to question the kid who plays with guns and his creepy fan club might just come after you.
92
If we were to take people's guns away based on their juvenile personality, it might be triply efficient to take away the driver's license of young people who commit reckless driving. I don't know anyone who has been shot, although once some kids ran past me on the street with a gun visible, as they laughed. However, among my group of friends, everyone has a story about being hit by a car in a crosswalk, being rear ended, family members suffering severe injuries, or avoiding injury by strong evasive action. It's only due to our psychological acceptance of vehicular injury that causes us to consider guns to be a higher priority risk.
93
You cannot judge what you donot know. He wasn't mentally ill. He was eccentric, brilliant, and quirky. We could use more of him and less of those cops. He was my friend. He was not mentally ill. Stop commenting if you don't know anything about him.
94
My opinion about the police force is based on personal experience of my friend who is currently an LAPD cop that was involved in a police shooting. There were no injuries/fatalities in that shooting and the UNARMED suspect fled the scene on foot only to be caught half a block down the street. My fried was REPRIMANDED for NOT opening fire after his partner did, who emptied the entire clip after indicating that the suspect “possibly” brandished a weapon.
After a thorough search of the alley NO weapons of any kind were recovered, and the 15 year old kid was later released because he just like any other kid simply ran because that’s what scared kids do, and no, he did NOT belong to any gang.
Not only my friend was reprimanded, but also ridiculed and rejected by his entire precinct for not “backing up” his new partner, for essentially not killing a 15 year old kid on a wrong hunch of a trigger happy “pup” pumped full of adrenaline who was fresh out of the academy.
He is currently “working” towards a career change, because after investing everything that he did he can’t just quit to walk away.
In police academies, in order to secure their safety the recruits are trained to DOMINATE and CONTROLL suspects, to ESCALATE the situation, NEVER to address or RELATE to the suspect and their “story” until the scene is fully secured. That means that regardless of who you are, you are treated as an imminent and clear danger to the safety of the officer until you are handcuffed and secured, meaning that you are presumed innocent until proven guilty only if you make it alive to the booking.
If a suspect is not complying with officers orders for ANY reason, be it incapacitation or attempts to state their side, it is ALREADY considered as RESISTANCE, a situation which is FURTHER ESCALATED and EXPLOITED just as TRAINING specifies in order to FORCE a “resisting arrest” charge, which is VITAL for clearing the officer of any previous or further wrong doing.
Majority of cops are not BAD by intent, they are simply caught up in administrative system which is specifically designed to make them do the things they do, and GOOD cops do not like it as much as the victims of such policies. In ALL such cases when the media gets a hold of such clear violations of basic civil rights, it’s the COPS that get the brunt of it even if the DA is out to cover their butts, but in essence it’s the officers that are then sold out for what they were trained to do.
So in this particular case, both officers were not blood thirsty killers as it’s the case on most of such tragedies, they were just following the RULES, as wrong as they are, rules which are instated by the systematic effort of increasing forceful control over the population, and that’s why BOTH of them fired, and both fired to KILL, because if only one of them would have fired, then the DA would be obligated to investigate why the second officer did not back up his partner.
It’s that simple, a vicious cycle of calculated, agenda driven violence perpetrated by policies of the government which is tasked with protecting of the population which they are actually at war with.
To ad insult to injury, after such cases police officers involved shooting have to attend mandatory counseling sessions, during which they are assured that what they did was necessary, while they them selves know that it was simply not, and after the entire B.S. system they usually suffer from severe PTSD, depression, and often flunk out and leave the force with severe phycological problems, followed by broken marriages, loss of visitation right with their kids, etc, therefore becoming the second victims of the system, because they are simply discarded as used up assets, only to be replaced by a batch of freshly “trained” adrenaline fueled “super-cops” that go out on the street to push people around.
And after the "pups" get the real taste of the street, they them selves become paranoid, because they quickly learn how much they are really despised, and that the streets are filled with people who have been pushed around once to many, and that they can snap and pull a gun right back at them with full intention of putting a bullet in their heads. So then such “maverick” cops not only become even more aggressive but extremely paranoid at the same time, so just imagine if they really would give a crap about YOU since they live their live in a constant state of fear them selves.
Enough reality for you? Because this cycle happens EVERY day as a matter of business as usual.
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After a thorough search of the alley NO weapons of any kind were recovered, and the 15 year old kid was later released because he just like any other kid simply ran because that’s what scared kids do, and no, he did NOT belong to any gang.
Not only my friend was reprimanded, but also ridiculed and rejected by his entire precinct for not “backing up” his new partner, for essentially not killing a 15 year old kid on a wrong hunch of a trigger happy “pup” pumped full of adrenaline who was fresh out of the academy.
He is currently “working” towards a career change, because after investing everything that he did he can’t just quit to walk away.
In police academies, in order to secure their safety the recruits are trained to DOMINATE and CONTROLL suspects, to ESCALATE the situation, NEVER to address or RELATE to the suspect and their “story” until the scene is fully secured. That means that regardless of who you are, you are treated as an imminent and clear danger to the safety of the officer until you are handcuffed and secured, meaning that you are presumed innocent until proven guilty only if you make it alive to the booking.
If a suspect is not complying with officers orders for ANY reason, be it incapacitation or attempts to state their side, it is ALREADY considered as RESISTANCE, a situation which is FURTHER ESCALATED and EXPLOITED just as TRAINING specifies in order to FORCE a “resisting arrest” charge, which is VITAL for clearing the officer of any previous or further wrong doing.
Majority of cops are not BAD by intent, they are simply caught up in administrative system which is specifically designed to make them do the things they do, and GOOD cops do not like it as much as the victims of such policies. In ALL such cases when the media gets a hold of such clear violations of basic civil rights, it’s the COPS that get the brunt of it even if the DA is out to cover their butts, but in essence it’s the officers that are then sold out for what they were trained to do.
So in this particular case, both officers were not blood thirsty killers as it’s the case on most of such tragedies, they were just following the RULES, as wrong as they are, rules which are instated by the systematic effort of increasing forceful control over the population, and that’s why BOTH of them fired, and both fired to KILL, because if only one of them would have fired, then the DA would be obligated to investigate why the second officer did not back up his partner.
It’s that simple, a vicious cycle of calculated, agenda driven violence perpetrated by policies of the government which is tasked with protecting of the population which they are actually at war with.
To ad insult to injury, after such cases police officers involved shooting have to attend mandatory counseling sessions, during which they are assured that what they did was necessary, while they them selves know that it was simply not, and after the entire B.S. system they usually suffer from severe PTSD, depression, and often flunk out and leave the force with severe phycological problems, followed by broken marriages, loss of visitation right with their kids, etc, therefore becoming the second victims of the system, because they are simply discarded as used up assets, only to be replaced by a batch of freshly “trained” adrenaline fueled “super-cops” that go out on the street to push people around.
And after the "pups" get the real taste of the street, they them selves become paranoid, because they quickly learn how much they are really despised, and that the streets are filled with people who have been pushed around once to many, and that they can snap and pull a gun right back at them with full intention of putting a bullet in their heads. So then such “maverick” cops not only become even more aggressive but extremely paranoid at the same time, so just imagine if they really would give a crap about YOU since they live their live in a constant state of fear them selves.
Enough reality for you? Because this cycle happens EVERY day as a matter of business as usual.
95
I had to stop reading after the 17th comment or so....
FACTS:
*Miles is NOT gay.... I had to laugh when I read this because it is so far from the truth! This guy got more girls than you could imagine. I am not sure what it was, but something about a guy being able to play numerous instruments is really attractive.
* There were only 3 guys at the scene. I am not sure why Police report 5 people dressed in uniform firing guns, but there were only 3 guys (Miles and 2 of his friends).
* The Police did NOT notify Miles or the other 2 friends that they were outside. They did not have sirens going indicating they were outside. Miles just happened to be walking out of his apartment when he was confronted by the Police. I am not sure about you, but I think I would be pretty startled and taken off guard.
* The other two friends were inside and were also unaware that the cops were in the yard and outside the door. They heard the Police yell something and merely seconds later they heard numerous shots.
I think I would just like everyone to know that what the Media and the Police tell you is not always the truth. Don't believe everything you believe, because it is simply not true.
Please have a little bit of consideration and sympathy for his friends. They did not know what was going on until it was too late. Miles was not suicidal, but merely being careless that night. His friends had to walk through his blood and will now forever remember New Years as the night they heard the Police kill one of their friends. His friends will have to live with this horrible memory for the rest of their lives.
We miss Miles very much and we are all so upset about this tragedy.
FACTS:
*Miles is NOT gay.... I had to laugh when I read this because it is so far from the truth! This guy got more girls than you could imagine. I am not sure what it was, but something about a guy being able to play numerous instruments is really attractive.
* There were only 3 guys at the scene. I am not sure why Police report 5 people dressed in uniform firing guns, but there were only 3 guys (Miles and 2 of his friends).
* The Police did NOT notify Miles or the other 2 friends that they were outside. They did not have sirens going indicating they were outside. Miles just happened to be walking out of his apartment when he was confronted by the Police. I am not sure about you, but I think I would be pretty startled and taken off guard.
* The other two friends were inside and were also unaware that the cops were in the yard and outside the door. They heard the Police yell something and merely seconds later they heard numerous shots.
I think I would just like everyone to know that what the Media and the Police tell you is not always the truth. Don't believe everything you believe, because it is simply not true.
Please have a little bit of consideration and sympathy for his friends. They did not know what was going on until it was too late. Miles was not suicidal, but merely being careless that night. His friends had to walk through his blood and will now forever remember New Years as the night they heard the Police kill one of their friends. His friends will have to live with this horrible memory for the rest of their lives.
We miss Miles very much and we are all so upset about this tragedy.
96
@91: Elenchos, wrong again. I never lied about, let alone criticized, the cops at any point. If they were right about Miles pointing the gun at them, then they took the appropriate course of action. I was simply providing details as to why I believe Miles pointed the rifle in their direction based upon some pretty straight forward and objective observations of the scene of the shooting. It was just a series of unfortunate events. It really isn't anyones fault. Both sides deserve the benefit of the doubt.
I will add however that I don't think you should take everything the police say for granted. For example, the policemen claimed in their statement that Miles made eye contact with them. I don't find this very likely. Though he may have appeared to be looking into the eyes of one of the policemen, I suspect Miles was fixated on the bright beam of light pouring out of one of their rifle mounted flashlights.
I'm not saying the policemen lied, I just think it was just one less thing in Miles' favor.
Furthermore, I have personally ruled out the possibility of Miles intending to appear threatening because;
1. If his hand had been on the trigger, it would have surely been mentioned in the police statement.
2. If the butt of the rifle were even close to his shoulder, the police statement would be more than happy to mention it as well.
I think the police should clarify exactly how he was handling the rifle. Regardless, I don't blame them for making the choice they did, I simply don't think Miles should be blamed. It was a tough spot for both parties. The difference being; Miles can't speak for himself now.
I will add however that I don't think you should take everything the police say for granted. For example, the policemen claimed in their statement that Miles made eye contact with them. I don't find this very likely. Though he may have appeared to be looking into the eyes of one of the policemen, I suspect Miles was fixated on the bright beam of light pouring out of one of their rifle mounted flashlights.
I'm not saying the policemen lied, I just think it was just one less thing in Miles' favor.
Furthermore, I have personally ruled out the possibility of Miles intending to appear threatening because;
1. If his hand had been on the trigger, it would have surely been mentioned in the police statement.
2. If the butt of the rifle were even close to his shoulder, the police statement would be more than happy to mention it as well.
I think the police should clarify exactly how he was handling the rifle. Regardless, I don't blame them for making the choice they did, I simply don't think Miles should be blamed. It was a tough spot for both parties. The difference being; Miles can't speak for himself now.
97
@95: As I mentioned earlier, that is pretty much exactly how I had imagined it going down. I can't imagine anyone knowingly emerging from their house to meet the police with a rifle. I don't think he knew... though he should have left the rifle inside.
98
“ I can't imagine anyone knowingly emerging from their house to meet the police with a rifle.” –
The rifle was not even loaded, as specifically mentioned by witnesses which stated that prior to going back to the house Murphy fired the last two blank which he had.
Naturally the not surprising part is the media depiction of the victim as a crazed, drunken Nazi uniform wearing nut with a rifle that he was using to threaten police all while they were politely asking him to lower it three times in a row.
Naturally alcohol was found in the house, IT WAS NEW YEARS celebrated by college STUDENTS!!!
What were they supposed to do, knit sweaters by the fireplace?
Oh, and what about neighbors that yelled at him on previous occasions for wearing the uniform?
And by the way, the uniform was not “Nazi” (or as read between the lines as SS, all of which leads to holocaust and neo-Nazi extremists), it was a standard WWI Wermaht soldier uniform, as clearly shown in his MySpace picture. Even his mustache was fashion in a period correct style, not in a typical Hitler mustache style of the WWII, not to mention the typical WWI bugle. And what about all the other uniforms he wore? He also had Soviet WWII uniforms, so if he was shot wearing a Red Army uniform he would have been a communist so good riddance, thanks SPD for making one less commie? Let’s follow this line of reasoning just a little further, what if he was dressed in drag? Thanks SPD for getting rid of one more what? Or about if he was dressed as a Jewish military Chaplin, wearing a full “VESTMENTS” with a YARMULKAH, AND ATALLI? Well holy crap, then it would reported as a full attack against the local Ravena Jewish community by blood thirsty SPD officers who were recruited by Hamas in order to avenge the current Israeli invasion of Gaza.
I really would like to hear the 911 call, and I bet it would sound something like this “Yes, police? We have a drunken Nazi here walking around the neighborhood shooting a rifle and threatening everybody! And he’s doing it all the time with his Nazi buddies you know, they all dress up and stomp around terrifying everybody here like it’s the Third Reich, can you believe it?”
Details details, but who gives a rats ass when it’s so simple to stereotype and condemn the victim as ordered by the media.
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The rifle was not even loaded, as specifically mentioned by witnesses which stated that prior to going back to the house Murphy fired the last two blank which he had.
Naturally the not surprising part is the media depiction of the victim as a crazed, drunken Nazi uniform wearing nut with a rifle that he was using to threaten police all while they were politely asking him to lower it three times in a row.
Naturally alcohol was found in the house, IT WAS NEW YEARS celebrated by college STUDENTS!!!
What were they supposed to do, knit sweaters by the fireplace?
Oh, and what about neighbors that yelled at him on previous occasions for wearing the uniform?
And by the way, the uniform was not “Nazi” (or as read between the lines as SS, all of which leads to holocaust and neo-Nazi extremists), it was a standard WWI Wermaht soldier uniform, as clearly shown in his MySpace picture. Even his mustache was fashion in a period correct style, not in a typical Hitler mustache style of the WWII, not to mention the typical WWI bugle. And what about all the other uniforms he wore? He also had Soviet WWII uniforms, so if he was shot wearing a Red Army uniform he would have been a communist so good riddance, thanks SPD for making one less commie? Let’s follow this line of reasoning just a little further, what if he was dressed in drag? Thanks SPD for getting rid of one more what? Or about if he was dressed as a Jewish military Chaplin, wearing a full “VESTMENTS” with a YARMULKAH, AND ATALLI? Well holy crap, then it would reported as a full attack against the local Ravena Jewish community by blood thirsty SPD officers who were recruited by Hamas in order to avenge the current Israeli invasion of Gaza.
I really would like to hear the 911 call, and I bet it would sound something like this “Yes, police? We have a drunken Nazi here walking around the neighborhood shooting a rifle and threatening everybody! And he’s doing it all the time with his Nazi buddies you know, they all dress up and stomp around terrifying everybody here like it’s the Third Reich, can you believe it?”
Details details, but who gives a rats ass when it’s so simple to stereotype and condemn the victim as ordered by the media.
99
wow Zarus you talk about stereotypes??? apparently your "friend" who worked/works for the LAPD (the most corrupt police force in the history of the U.S.) is treated wrong and now all police are in kill mode and unaccountable??? Talk about hypocrisy, nice stereotype. You must know everything about every police officer ever, to make such a statement.
"What were they supposed to do, knit sweaters by the fireplace?" Is this some sort of joke??? Is shooting heavy caliber weapons in the street (blanks or not) in military garb and in a highly populated residential area the cool thing to do and knitting sweaters boring??????.
Regardless of your incredible bias towards law enforcement if people in military type clothing were shooting heavy rifles in your neighborhood you'd be dialing 911. If the police did not respond and protect you I am sure your stereotypical blather toward the police would take on a whole new hypocrisy. Sadly this young man is dead, but the verbal vomit you espouse to be fact pertaining to our public safety system is almost an offense to all our sense of decency.
"What were they supposed to do, knit sweaters by the fireplace?" Is this some sort of joke??? Is shooting heavy caliber weapons in the street (blanks or not) in military garb and in a highly populated residential area the cool thing to do and knitting sweaters boring??????.
Regardless of your incredible bias towards law enforcement if people in military type clothing were shooting heavy rifles in your neighborhood you'd be dialing 911. If the police did not respond and protect you I am sure your stereotypical blather toward the police would take on a whole new hypocrisy. Sadly this young man is dead, but the verbal vomit you espouse to be fact pertaining to our public safety system is almost an offense to all our sense of decency.
100
working my way backwards, so sorry for the interruption of flow.
(not that I address by name, and not @# which gets fucked when admins delete or censor comments. @-1#, duh! (slog, you;ve been a bit better about replacing deleted text with moderator comment/reason; keep it up).
i think he got what he deserved, but (working backwards):
rollinfree, most corrupt force would be NOPD, not LAPD.
Zarus, you are an obvious friend attempting to tamper with the juror pool. Oh, wait, this won't go to a jury.
Alcohol in the house != drunk, only a coroner can determine that: moot.
I am a college student (albeit a grad student), and I know that NYE celebrations are even more fun when you're not drunk off your asses.
The uniform is sensationalistic, I agree. The gun, not so much.
And, if you want to hear an 911 call, then you must also hear *all* 911 calls. All of those calls relating to this incident would incline a jury to convict, not acquit. Ohh, nevermind, he's already a threat to the public by popping off shots (blanks or lives, no matter) in violation of law.
I am not stereotyping, I am simply going off of witness statements, police reports (informal in this prelim stage), and pro-journalists. i'll lend you credence once i see your story vetted and published.
considerthis, how about the statements in public record of prior shooting in the alley, or the upstairs neighbor hearing cop shouts of "put it down, put the gun down" x3. the two cops who were there had exemplary records (and no matter how much dirt you try to sling and malign them with, it'll only ensure that you've got a daddy problem with authority).
sorry, can't read up anymore. need to go dress up in costume and fire off some blanks to test SPD response time. goodbye, cold cruel worlerla;wua;pw4klfj a; [carrier lost]
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(not that I address by name, and not @# which gets fucked when admins delete or censor comments. @-1#, duh! (slog, you;ve been a bit better about replacing deleted text with moderator comment/reason; keep it up).
i think he got what he deserved, but (working backwards):
rollinfree, most corrupt force would be NOPD, not LAPD.
Zarus, you are an obvious friend attempting to tamper with the juror pool. Oh, wait, this won't go to a jury.
Alcohol in the house != drunk, only a coroner can determine that: moot.
I am a college student (albeit a grad student), and I know that NYE celebrations are even more fun when you're not drunk off your asses.
The uniform is sensationalistic, I agree. The gun, not so much.
And, if you want to hear an 911 call, then you must also hear *all* 911 calls. All of those calls relating to this incident would incline a jury to convict, not acquit. Ohh, nevermind, he's already a threat to the public by popping off shots (blanks or lives, no matter) in violation of law.
I am not stereotyping, I am simply going off of witness statements, police reports (informal in this prelim stage), and pro-journalists. i'll lend you credence once i see your story vetted and published.
considerthis, how about the statements in public record of prior shooting in the alley, or the upstairs neighbor hearing cop shouts of "put it down, put the gun down" x3. the two cops who were there had exemplary records (and no matter how much dirt you try to sling and malign them with, it'll only ensure that you've got a daddy problem with authority).
sorry, can't read up anymore. need to go dress up in costume and fire off some blanks to test SPD response time. goodbye, cold cruel worlerla;wua;pw4klfj a; [carrier lost]
101
@rational: There is no question about where miles was shot, it was right outside his door. Did you even read a single article in full? The firing of blanks in the alley are what alerted the police, Miles and his friends were inside by the time they arrived (in the movie frame I posted earlier you can see both the bullet holes in the wall as well as a piece of cardboard covering up blood.) Also, all witness accounts that I have read say the confrontation took a matter of seconds. That doesn't mean the police didn't urgently shout "put the gun down" three times, in fact, several seconds sounds about right.
102
If the police officers were indeed shining bright flashlights directly into Miles' eyes, he would have been blinded and not seen their uniforms nor their guns. And if both of their voices were frantically screaming and echoing in that narrow hall, he may not have been able to comprehend what they were trying to say.
Combined with their distorted "worst-case" assessment of the situation (i.e., assuming they were facing a heavily-armed Nazi psychopath with a hostage instead of just an eccentric history student), then the tragic outcome would have been all but assured.
Combined with their distorted "worst-case" assessment of the situation (i.e., assuming they were facing a heavily-armed Nazi psychopath with a hostage instead of just an eccentric history student), then the tragic outcome would have been all but assured.
105
rollinfree ,
“Regardless of your incredible bias towards law enforcement if people in military type clothing were shooting heavy rifles in your neighborhood you'd be dialing 911. If the police did not respond and protect you I am sure your stereotypical blather toward the police would take on a whole new hypocrisy. Sadly this young man is dead, but the verbal vomit you espouse to be fact pertaining to our public safety system is almost an offense to all our sense of decency.
Bias, stereotypical blather, hypocrisy verbal vomit, any other personal attacks you care to “mount” for the lack of anything factual to say? How about a PhD to back it all up aw well?
Talking about “stereotypical”, it’s the closed, propagandized and brainwashed minds that result to personal attacks when they are incapable of confronting the obvious truth that has nothing to do with the preferences of the individual, but the reality of the FACTAULL.
This one time, for the sake of other readers I’ll address your fallacious attacks on MY STATEMENTS, while the topic is the issue of yet another fatal police shooting of an INNOCENT CIVILIAN and not a criminal.
>>>"What were they supposed to do, knit sweaters by the fireplace?" Is this some sort of joke?? ? Is shooting heavy caliber weapons in the street (blanks or not) in military garb and in a highly populated residential area the cool thing to do and knitting sweaters boring?????<<<
You are either purposefully misreading what was written, or your reading and comprehension skill are in the need of a good dusting, so I’ll just REPOST exactly what I wrote, because there is no way it can be twisted and misconstrued as you just have unless there is an arterial motive.
>>>>>Naturally alcohol was found in the house, IT WAS NEW YEARS celebrated by college STUDENTS!!!
What were they supposed to do, knit sweaters by the fireplace?<<<<<
Alcohol found in the house of New Year celebrating collage students. WOW, that type of a crime must explain everything, including a Nazi wearing, rifle wielding psycho, oh sure, that’s a lot easier to live with rather then having to accept the true nature of the system in place.
Moving on;
>>>>>Is shooting heavy caliber weapons in the street (blanks or not) in military garb and in a highly populated residential area the cool thing to do and knitting sweaters boring??????. <<<<<
Well, how about a CLEARLY mentally ill man wielding a ninja sword in the middle of down town Seattle, who was simply incapable of endangering the lives of armed officers that shot him down like an animal while they DID HAVE MEANS of incapacitating him with wire tazers, what was that?
A MESSAGE TO THE PUBLICK, if you step out of line which we enforce, you will be SHOT and KILLED! But hey, it must be OK since he was clinically insane, so who cares, right?
Hell, if a bear or a deer stumbles in the city area, bring out the net and animal control to shot a sedation dart so the kids won’t be crying when they see it on TV, but when a disturbed human steps out of line, simply kill them to keep the message loud and clear.
>>>>>Sadly this young man is dead, but the verbal vomit you espouse to be fact pertaining to our public safety system is almost an offense to all our sense of decency.<<<<<
Public SAFETY system and “since of decency? Watch TV much? How about READING? Brush up on some statistics on the EPIDEMIC of systematic ABUSE of the “system”. Repeated tazing people to death is such a problem that now certain cities REQUARE taze guns with a memory chips that records time and the number of discharges in order to prevent ELECTRICAL TOURTURE of people that police confront.
Why don’t you >rollinfree< into your local library, and brush up on the FACTUALL DATA rather then POPULAR MEDIA DRIVEN PROPOGANSDA.
More...
“Regardless of your incredible bias towards law enforcement if people in military type clothing were shooting heavy rifles in your neighborhood you'd be dialing 911. If the police did not respond and protect you I am sure your stereotypical blather toward the police would take on a whole new hypocrisy. Sadly this young man is dead, but the verbal vomit you espouse to be fact pertaining to our public safety system is almost an offense to all our sense of decency.
Bias, stereotypical blather, hypocrisy verbal vomit, any other personal attacks you care to “mount” for the lack of anything factual to say? How about a PhD to back it all up aw well?
Talking about “stereotypical”, it’s the closed, propagandized and brainwashed minds that result to personal attacks when they are incapable of confronting the obvious truth that has nothing to do with the preferences of the individual, but the reality of the FACTAULL.
This one time, for the sake of other readers I’ll address your fallacious attacks on MY STATEMENTS, while the topic is the issue of yet another fatal police shooting of an INNOCENT CIVILIAN and not a criminal.
>>>"What were they supposed to do, knit sweaters by the fireplace?" Is this some sort of joke?? ? Is shooting heavy caliber weapons in the street (blanks or not) in military garb and in a highly populated residential area the cool thing to do and knitting sweaters boring?????<<<
You are either purposefully misreading what was written, or your reading and comprehension skill are in the need of a good dusting, so I’ll just REPOST exactly what I wrote, because there is no way it can be twisted and misconstrued as you just have unless there is an arterial motive.
>>>>>Naturally alcohol was found in the house, IT WAS NEW YEARS celebrated by college STUDENTS!!!
What were they supposed to do, knit sweaters by the fireplace?<<<<<
Alcohol found in the house of New Year celebrating collage students. WOW, that type of a crime must explain everything, including a Nazi wearing, rifle wielding psycho, oh sure, that’s a lot easier to live with rather then having to accept the true nature of the system in place.
Moving on;
>>>>>Is shooting heavy caliber weapons in the street (blanks or not) in military garb and in a highly populated residential area the cool thing to do and knitting sweaters boring??????. <<<<<
Well, how about a CLEARLY mentally ill man wielding a ninja sword in the middle of down town Seattle, who was simply incapable of endangering the lives of armed officers that shot him down like an animal while they DID HAVE MEANS of incapacitating him with wire tazers, what was that?
A MESSAGE TO THE PUBLICK, if you step out of line which we enforce, you will be SHOT and KILLED! But hey, it must be OK since he was clinically insane, so who cares, right?
Hell, if a bear or a deer stumbles in the city area, bring out the net and animal control to shot a sedation dart so the kids won’t be crying when they see it on TV, but when a disturbed human steps out of line, simply kill them to keep the message loud and clear.
>>>>>Sadly this young man is dead, but the verbal vomit you espouse to be fact pertaining to our public safety system is almost an offense to all our sense of decency.<<<<<
Public SAFETY system and “since of decency? Watch TV much? How about READING? Brush up on some statistics on the EPIDEMIC of systematic ABUSE of the “system”. Repeated tazing people to death is such a problem that now certain cities REQUARE taze guns with a memory chips that records time and the number of discharges in order to prevent ELECTRICAL TOURTURE of people that police confront.
Why don’t you >rollinfree< into your local library, and brush up on the FACTUALL DATA rather then POPULAR MEDIA DRIVEN PROPOGANSDA.
106
Greeting mr. rational, let’s try and remain so.
>>>>> rollinfree, most corrupt force would be NOPD, not LAPD.
Zarus, you are an obvious friend attempting to tamper with the juror pool. Oh, wait, this won't go to a jury.
Alcohol in the house != drunk, only a coroner can determine that: moot<<<<<<
First;
Rationality is rather the opposite of ASSUMPTION, it requires collection of valid data and its analysis, and I hope such basics will help you with your studies.
As I clearly stated, the problem is not with INDIVIDUAL corruption of officers, but with a SYSTEMATIC system of TRANING PORGRAMS which indoctrinate the cadets while training them to treat the public as the source of life threatening danger first, and only as victims of crime second.
Second;
No, I’m not “obviously attempting to tamper with the juror pool.” and yes, it should go to the jury, who then should decide if the officers had no other choice but to KILL, and not just sweep yet another fatal police shooting of a CITIZEN under the carpet.
Since you have made such a premeditated and agenda driven assumption, you are being far from “rational”, because rational people ASK first and SPEAK later, it’s called REASONING.
I have never met the young man, but a decade ago I did work as a journalist here in Seattle, and some of the last stories I covered were WTO riots and Bushes 1st election. After that I was so SICKENED by how twisted, sanitized and controlled media is, a carrier change was simply necessary in order to stay sane.
The so called “free” American media in nothing more then a chain of FAST FOOD joints; they all serve the same crap just in different wrappers.
News is not the reporting of the current events, it’s a PRODUCT value of which is determined by RATINGS, which in turn set the PRICE of ADVERTISING.
Enjoy you crap Media burger and the slow, fat mind that it creates.
>>>>> am a college student (albeit a grad student), and I know that NYE celebrations are even more fun when you're not drunk off your asses.
The uniform is sensationalistic, I agree. The gun, not so much.
And, if you want to hear an 911 call, then you must also hear *all* 911 calls. All of those calls relating to this incident would incline a jury to convict, not acquit. Ohh, nevermind, he's already a threat to the public by popping off shots (blanks or lives, no matter) in violation of law.<<<<<
Wow, a grad student, an avid “rational”, continues to freely assume with out any base line information. How are your grades? If this was your paper on the topic, I would have failed you.
“All those calls..” “ incline the jury to convict, not acquit” – what are you, OJ Simpson lawyer?
What calls? Have you heard them since you are so confident that the jury will convict, or are you simply assuming again?
Don’t take it personally, you are not at fault, I blame the systematic degradation of our failing educational system.
>>>>> I am not stereotyping, I am simply going off of witness statements, police reports (informal in this prelim stage), and pro-journalists. i'll lend you credence once i see your story vetted and published.<<<<<
Witness reports;
>>> "It seemed to happen super, super fast," Ray said.
"I don't know if he was stunned, and not used to the police yelling at him or what, but he might have just froze," Ray said.”<<<
Police reports? WHERE? They were STATEMENTS, not reports.
Pro-journalists? Please, indulge me, who would they be? I worked with people that covered Watergate and the collapse of the USSR, and personally know that these days these “pro-journalists” are kids that can barely spell, and that is precisely why their main “journalistic” skill is the use “copy and paste” shortcuts.
Credence for my “story”? What story? If I happened to state the obvious, then I have to have credentials, but if I chose to parrot the usual “opinions” then it’s acceptable?
>>>> considerthis, how about the statements in public record of prior shooting in the alley, or the upstairs neighbor hearing cop shouts of "put it down, put the gun down" x3. the two cops who were there had exemplary records (and no matter how much dirt you try to sling and malign them with, it'll only ensure that you've got a daddy problem with authority).<<<<
Sure, let’s take the official statements as fact, salute to the flag, disregard anything else by simply labeling it as “daddy problem with authority”, and move on as usual towards the authoritarian control.
I’ll put it this way, HEY KID! Get over your self, get out into the REAL world, travel a bit, talk to strangers, or instead just get it over it and register as a blind and obedient republican. All the best to you.
More...
>>>>> rollinfree, most corrupt force would be NOPD, not LAPD.
Zarus, you are an obvious friend attempting to tamper with the juror pool. Oh, wait, this won't go to a jury.
Alcohol in the house != drunk, only a coroner can determine that: moot<<<<<<
First;
Rationality is rather the opposite of ASSUMPTION, it requires collection of valid data and its analysis, and I hope such basics will help you with your studies.
As I clearly stated, the problem is not with INDIVIDUAL corruption of officers, but with a SYSTEMATIC system of TRANING PORGRAMS which indoctrinate the cadets while training them to treat the public as the source of life threatening danger first, and only as victims of crime second.
Second;
No, I’m not “obviously attempting to tamper with the juror pool.” and yes, it should go to the jury, who then should decide if the officers had no other choice but to KILL, and not just sweep yet another fatal police shooting of a CITIZEN under the carpet.
Since you have made such a premeditated and agenda driven assumption, you are being far from “rational”, because rational people ASK first and SPEAK later, it’s called REASONING.
I have never met the young man, but a decade ago I did work as a journalist here in Seattle, and some of the last stories I covered were WTO riots and Bushes 1st election. After that I was so SICKENED by how twisted, sanitized and controlled media is, a carrier change was simply necessary in order to stay sane.
The so called “free” American media in nothing more then a chain of FAST FOOD joints; they all serve the same crap just in different wrappers.
News is not the reporting of the current events, it’s a PRODUCT value of which is determined by RATINGS, which in turn set the PRICE of ADVERTISING.
Enjoy you crap Media burger and the slow, fat mind that it creates.
>>>>> am a college student (albeit a grad student), and I know that NYE celebrations are even more fun when you're not drunk off your asses.
The uniform is sensationalistic, I agree. The gun, not so much.
And, if you want to hear an 911 call, then you must also hear *all* 911 calls. All of those calls relating to this incident would incline a jury to convict, not acquit. Ohh, nevermind, he's already a threat to the public by popping off shots (blanks or lives, no matter) in violation of law.<<<<<
Wow, a grad student, an avid “rational”, continues to freely assume with out any base line information. How are your grades? If this was your paper on the topic, I would have failed you.
“All those calls..” “ incline the jury to convict, not acquit” – what are you, OJ Simpson lawyer?
What calls? Have you heard them since you are so confident that the jury will convict, or are you simply assuming again?
Don’t take it personally, you are not at fault, I blame the systematic degradation of our failing educational system.
>>>>> I am not stereotyping, I am simply going off of witness statements, police reports (informal in this prelim stage), and pro-journalists. i'll lend you credence once i see your story vetted and published.<<<<<
Witness reports;
>>> "It seemed to happen super, super fast," Ray said.
"I don't know if he was stunned, and not used to the police yelling at him or what, but he might have just froze," Ray said.”<<<
Police reports? WHERE? They were STATEMENTS, not reports.
Pro-journalists? Please, indulge me, who would they be? I worked with people that covered Watergate and the collapse of the USSR, and personally know that these days these “pro-journalists” are kids that can barely spell, and that is precisely why their main “journalistic” skill is the use “copy and paste” shortcuts.
Credence for my “story”? What story? If I happened to state the obvious, then I have to have credentials, but if I chose to parrot the usual “opinions” then it’s acceptable?
>>>> considerthis, how about the statements in public record of prior shooting in the alley, or the upstairs neighbor hearing cop shouts of "put it down, put the gun down" x3. the two cops who were there had exemplary records (and no matter how much dirt you try to sling and malign them with, it'll only ensure that you've got a daddy problem with authority).<<<<
Sure, let’s take the official statements as fact, salute to the flag, disregard anything else by simply labeling it as “daddy problem with authority”, and move on as usual towards the authoritarian control.
I’ll put it this way, HEY KID! Get over your self, get out into the REAL world, travel a bit, talk to strangers, or instead just get it over it and register as a blind and obedient republican. All the best to you.
107
Getting back to the topic, as other posters correctly pointed out, in the reality of today’s technology advancements a flashlight is not simply a tool of illumination. It’s a weapon designed to STUN your opponent, and people are trained to use is as such. Depending on ambient light conditions an output of 100+ lumens will blind and disorient a person for a period of 5 to 10 seconds, and that’s exactly why they are used as first defense response or in a classical pistol/light grip.
Pulsating LED light from a 3 watt Luxeon/Cree emitter will CONTINUESLY disorient a person for as long as the light is emitted.
Police as well as tactical units of all kinds are specifically trained to use blinding as a method of situation control, not just to “see” what’s going on.
I personally own various police and military LED lights, and only when I demonstrate their true potential do people realize that it’s not just a toy or something you bring along on a walk to locate the pile of poop your dog just made on your neighbors lawn.
A 200 lumens blast to your eyes will give you a headache and give you blind spots (disorientation) for at least 3 minutes. 5 watt LED emitters can actually cause permanents damage to the cornea.
LED light is a solid state, microchip controlled light emitting diode, or a LASER, so when an unsuspecting individual who was possibly intoxicated gets blasted with what most likely was around 200 lumens, all while being in a narrow passage and being yelled at, he would be absolutely stunned and incapable of performing even the basic tasks.
If there are real friends of the victim on this blog, feel free to contact me at my email, I will be more then happy to demonstrate (and videotape) the disorienting effect that a modern flashlight delivers, and what such capability really achieves.
Then the video can be posted on YouTube so the masses could be better informed to how stunning such effect really is, and how difficult it actually is to follow the basic instructions when you are blind as a bat and have a searing pain in your brain.
More...
Pulsating LED light from a 3 watt Luxeon/Cree emitter will CONTINUESLY disorient a person for as long as the light is emitted.
Police as well as tactical units of all kinds are specifically trained to use blinding as a method of situation control, not just to “see” what’s going on.
I personally own various police and military LED lights, and only when I demonstrate their true potential do people realize that it’s not just a toy or something you bring along on a walk to locate the pile of poop your dog just made on your neighbors lawn.
A 200 lumens blast to your eyes will give you a headache and give you blind spots (disorientation) for at least 3 minutes. 5 watt LED emitters can actually cause permanents damage to the cornea.
LED light is a solid state, microchip controlled light emitting diode, or a LASER, so when an unsuspecting individual who was possibly intoxicated gets blasted with what most likely was around 200 lumens, all while being in a narrow passage and being yelled at, he would be absolutely stunned and incapable of performing even the basic tasks.
If there are real friends of the victim on this blog, feel free to contact me at my email, I will be more then happy to demonstrate (and videotape) the disorienting effect that a modern flashlight delivers, and what such capability really achieves.
Then the video can be posted on YouTube so the masses could be better informed to how stunning such effect really is, and how difficult it actually is to follow the basic instructions when you are blind as a bat and have a searing pain in your brain.
108
Oh gee, whatdaaya know, just came in on the news, yet another police shooting, this time on New York subway, where a 24 year old was on the ground, in handcuffs, and was shot in the back, point blank.
Yeah, everything is just fine; cops are just doing their jobs, nothing to see here, moving on.
I do recall clearly stating that the majority of such cases create victims on both sides, the victims of systematic violence against civilian population, and the cops that have to live with PTSD, substance abuse and severe emotional problems after they realize what actually took place, what they were a part of and why.
War veterans that managed to survive, come back into the world and retain a portion of their sanity have IDENTICAL questions of “WHY?”, and they too have to live and struggle with the consequence of violence.
Yeah, everything is just fine; cops are just doing their jobs, nothing to see here, moving on.
I do recall clearly stating that the majority of such cases create victims on both sides, the victims of systematic violence against civilian population, and the cops that have to live with PTSD, substance abuse and severe emotional problems after they realize what actually took place, what they were a part of and why.
War veterans that managed to survive, come back into the world and retain a portion of their sanity have IDENTICAL questions of “WHY?”, and they too have to live and struggle with the consequence of violence.
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