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News & ArtsThursday, January 1, 2009
News I Don't Generally Support the Death Penalty...
Posted by Dan Savage on Thu, Jan 1, 2009 at 5:33 PM
...but I'm willing to make an exception in this case.
A man and two teens have been arrested for the gang rape of a lesbian in San Francisco's East Bay city of Richmond in mid-December. Their victim, who has not been identified was carjacked, and repeatedly raped and assaulted for 45 minutes before she was dumped on the street and sought help from a resident.
The woman was abducted and raped after the men spotted a rainbow sticker on her car.
1
death penalty would be too nice for scum like that. Castration and made sure they are in "Federal Pound Them In The Ass" prison is more appropriate.
2
Dan, I too wrote about this on my blog, ttthomas.wordpress.com/2008/12/23/rick-y…
and I cannot believe that people aren't making the connection between this kind of horror and the entire PII (pre-Inauguration invite) diatribes of Rick Warren. Thanks for bringing more attention to the travesty of organized homophobia and the violence that inevitably ensues.
and I cannot believe that people aren't making the connection between this kind of horror and the entire PII (pre-Inauguration invite) diatribes of Rick Warren. Thanks for bringing more attention to the travesty of organized homophobia and the violence that inevitably ensues.
4
Seriously? As a deterrent? As vengeance? Catharsis?
Akbar's comment wishing them years of anal rape in prison is -- sorry -- similarly barbaric. What good is civilization if it doesn't rise above impulsive and pointless acts of retribution?
Akbar's comment wishing them years of anal rape in prison is -- sorry -- similarly barbaric. What good is civilization if it doesn't rise above impulsive and pointless acts of retribution?
5
The problem with the death penalty isn't that there are no crimes that deserve it. It's that we can't seem to avoid arresting and convicting innocent people.
6
Dan is against the death penalty unless the crime involves a gay person. The poor gays, have it so much worse then everybody, everyday is like the Holocaust if your gay.
8
Why haven't we heard more of this abominable case?.......3 gave the answer = Blacks and Mexicans are the perpetrators. That's all that's needed for the Politically Correct police to hush lgbt people. A slap on the wrist,some sensitivity training and on to the streets the homophobes go! Maybe Obama is going to invite them for the inauguration since he's looking to score points with the religious right via bigots like Warren.
10
I don't know why you haven't "heard more of this abominable case". I heard about it immediately after it happened. Maybe because you don't read the news?
And Dan, principles much? You don't get to pick and choose when laws apply.
And Dan, principles much? You don't get to pick and choose when laws apply.
11
Most death penalty advocates don't "generally" support the death penalty. Like you, they support its use under certain circumstances.
12
"The poor gays, have it so much worse then everybody, everyday is like the Holocaust if your gay."
At least they know proper spelling, grammar and usage. You've violated all three in one sentence.
Assbag.
At least they know proper spelling, grammar and usage. You've violated all three in one sentence.
Assbag.
15
@10. Dan originally posted about this a week or two ago. So, go feel surperior and self-important somewhere else, okay?
16
um, these scumbags commit this incredibly heinous crime and the response here is to criticize DAN for being uninformed and unprincipled? WTF?
Thank you U.Vinny @8. What you said.
Thank you U.Vinny @8. What you said.
19
To Post #2: These suspects in this case don't seem like the types to read "The Purpose-Driven Life". Trying to connect Rick Warren to this horrific crime is just an inappropriate stretch.
Let's be honest - secular or religious, people will always have an instinctive revulsion to the idea of intimate or sexual relations between two members of the same gender.
Demanding total acceptance of homosexuality will never work, but teaching tolerance will.
Let's be honest - secular or religious, people will always have an instinctive revulsion to the idea of intimate or sexual relations between two members of the same gender.
Demanding total acceptance of homosexuality will never work, but teaching tolerance will.
20
@8
Gays need to learn where they are on the Liberal PC pecking order;
which is to say- under blacks.
Blacks have a President (who opposes gay marriage, btw) (what? you say gays donated plenty to Obama? ask for a refund. or kiss that money goodby (like $38mil in Prop 8 moola))
Blacks stiffed gays on Prop 8. Appropriate PC response? Say 'thanks, may I have another!'
And spread your cheeks a little wider cause Warren is coming up for his turn in your ass.
So don't expect much to happen to your California sister's new best friends.
And get used to your spot in the PC pecking order:
low pecker
Gays need to learn where they are on the Liberal PC pecking order;
which is to say- under blacks.
Blacks have a President (who opposes gay marriage, btw) (what? you say gays donated plenty to Obama? ask for a refund. or kiss that money goodby (like $38mil in Prop 8 moola))
Blacks stiffed gays on Prop 8. Appropriate PC response? Say 'thanks, may I have another!'
And spread your cheeks a little wider cause Warren is coming up for his turn in your ass.
So don't expect much to happen to your California sister's new best friends.
And get used to your spot in the PC pecking order:
low pecker
21
I'm still against the death penalty -- even in this case. It's an expression, people.
awww man Dan,
don't back down now, right when we were all gonna get your back and say say "right on Dan" & "Dan ftw" 'cause we as trolls love to castigate entire groups of people based on skin color and/or sexual orientation and spew rah rah yay yay capital punishment and brutal prison justice sentiments.
Dan Savage you are a bad, bad, bad man. and us trolls shouldn't read your blog.
awww man Dan,
don't back down now, right when we were all gonna get your back and say say "right on Dan" & "Dan ftw" 'cause we as trolls love to castigate entire groups of people based on skin color and/or sexual orientation and spew rah rah yay yay capital punishment and brutal prison justice sentiments.
Dan Savage you are a bad, bad, bad man. and us trolls shouldn't read your blog.
23
dale @ 19:
people will always have an instinctive revulsion to the idea of intimate or sexual relations between two members of the same gender.
rather than revulsion, i find it to be kind of hawt..... oh wait wait, i didn't say that.. no way..
what I meant was that the Gays are just whining liberal wimps, and that Jesus hated fags almost as much as he hated commies.
so there
people will always have an instinctive revulsion to the idea of intimate or sexual relations between two members of the same gender.
rather than revulsion, i find it to be kind of hawt..... oh wait wait, i didn't say that.. no way..
what I meant was that the Gays are just whining liberal wimps, and that Jesus hated fags almost as much as he hated commies.
so there
24
Have you ever taken a position that you actually STICK with and don't morph under the circumstances? You are such a fucking loser, Savage.
26
This kind of selective death penalization is really insulting to other victims of crime.
Are lesbians who are gang raped somehow more justified in getting the death penalty for their attackers than say an asian male murdered for 20$?
This is self-centrism at its worst.
Are lesbians who are gang raped somehow more justified in getting the death penalty for their attackers than say an asian male murdered for 20$?
This is self-centrism at its worst.
27
Punishments should be tailored to fit the crimes, not to reflect the political importance of the victims. If gang rape deserves the death penalty, shouldn't it apply to normal victims as well as lesbians?
Is the dignity of a lesbian woman more important than the dignity and physical well-being of a victim of child rape?
For every lesbian rape, there are 100 rapes of mothers,wives, boys and girls. If the gang rape of a lesbian deserves death, doesn't the homosexual gang rape of a young man deserve death too?
Your comments suggest that death be reserved for criminals who violate ideology--not for individuals who commit specific crimes. That's irrational and it's wrong.
Is the dignity of a lesbian woman more important than the dignity and physical well-being of a victim of child rape?
For every lesbian rape, there are 100 rapes of mothers,wives, boys and girls. If the gang rape of a lesbian deserves death, doesn't the homosexual gang rape of a young man deserve death too?
Your comments suggest that death be reserved for criminals who violate ideology--not for individuals who commit specific crimes. That's irrational and it's wrong.
28
I think Dan's point was that heinous things are happening to people because they are gay, and more attention should be paid. I would guess that as a person who promotes fun, safe, interesting sex, he is equally appalled by all rapes. Use all this energy to attack the perpetrators, folks--not people who say this kind of thing shouldn't happen.
29
This so very, very sad. Rape is a horrible crime, this is made worse because it is also a hate crime.
I'm still against the death penalty. Apparently, Dan is also if you read #14.
I'm still against the death penalty. Apparently, Dan is also if you read #14.
30
@5: agreed. After talking to an innocent man who had spent 22 years on death row and watched other innocent men die, I will never be able to support the death penalty, no matter what the crime.
32
This is why I don't put my sociopolitical opinions on the ass of my car. Nobody's going to try to hurt me because I like KEXP.
33
DEATH PENALTY: Killing because rage fills you. Let's kill the rapists out of rage. And since the rapists feel rage, they get to kill, too. So does everybody. What a solution. The guy with the biggest military industrial complex gets to kill anyone without repercussions, and the rest of us get to do so as long as we don't get caught. Sounds so reasonable.
34
@30 Citrus,
My understanding is that since 1976 when the US Supreme Court rendered an opinion reinstating Capitol Punishment at the Federal level and allowing states to do so as well there has yet be a case where an innocent (of that Capitol crime) man or woman has been put to death. The Death Penalty Information Project has yet to find such a case. I find your assertion dubious.
Dan,
Glad you qualified what you said. I believe you be against the Death Penalty in all cases. I happen to disagree (even though I support its rare use as in the case of Adolph Eichmann who was indeed executed, I still support it). Like you, I was appalled at that crime. Some crimes just shock. I'm not suprised at your visceral reaction.
My understanding is that since 1976 when the US Supreme Court rendered an opinion reinstating Capitol Punishment at the Federal level and allowing states to do so as well there has yet be a case where an innocent (of that Capitol crime) man or woman has been put to death. The Death Penalty Information Project has yet to find such a case. I find your assertion dubious.
Dan,
Glad you qualified what you said. I believe you be against the Death Penalty in all cases. I happen to disagree (even though I support its rare use as in the case of Adolph Eichmann who was indeed executed, I still support it). Like you, I was appalled at that crime. Some crimes just shock. I'm not suprised at your visceral reaction.
35
@34
You mean capital.
Capitol punishment is being sentenced to 7 years hard C-SPAN watching.
We all know what capitol crimes are.
You mean capital.
Capitol punishment is being sentenced to 7 years hard C-SPAN watching.
We all know what capitol crimes are.
37
@26,
I whole heartily agree with you. A similar thing happen to one of my neighbors who happens to be black. Can you believe he wanted the white men who raped his sister, sodomized him, left him paraplegic for life from the brutal beating they gave him while shouting racial slurs, to be prosecuted also with a hate crimes charge! And their mother who was raped at 8 years of age by white men who ended up lynching her father, wanted the death penalty for the men who did this to her sons! Just because they think they were targeted for their race! I gotta tell you I felt appalled at their hubris. Are blacks who are gang raped and targeted for their race somehow more justified in getting the tougher penalties like capital punishment for their attackers than say any other person targeted or murdered for 50$?
This is self-centrism at its worst.
I whole heartily agree with you. A similar thing happen to one of my neighbors who happens to be black. Can you believe he wanted the white men who raped his sister, sodomized him, left him paraplegic for life from the brutal beating they gave him while shouting racial slurs, to be prosecuted also with a hate crimes charge! And their mother who was raped at 8 years of age by white men who ended up lynching her father, wanted the death penalty for the men who did this to her sons! Just because they think they were targeted for their race! I gotta tell you I felt appalled at their hubris. Are blacks who are gang raped and targeted for their race somehow more justified in getting the tougher penalties like capital punishment for their attackers than say any other person targeted or murdered for 50$?
This is self-centrism at its worst.
38
I am a single hetro male from Austin and this tragedy caught my eye, I am lost in the insanity of this and while non-violence is my chosen path, I am struggling with many emotions I once thought were dissolved...please Bay City LGB I would like to send some support to any group helping this victum. Will you tell me where to send my support...KB
40
Once these guys are convicted, the decision to impose the death penalty should be left to the victim. If she wants to spare them, let them live. If not, kill 'em.
41
38, Here is the info for sending support: Donations for the victim may be sent to Community Violence Solutions, 2101 Van Ness St., San Pablo, CA 94806. For more information, call (510) 237-0113. CW
42
I'm opposed to the death penalty, even in this case, as horrible as it is, but I would be okay with castration and lifelong imprisonment of the men involved. Castration because they obviously have sexual problems and lifelong imprisonment because of the terrible crime they committed. And I don't mean "chemical castration," I mean, physically cut the balls off and toss em in the garbage.
44
Everything I believe does not condone the death penalty. However, I believe that hate crimes statutes need to universally and without question cover the GLBT community. Penalties should be stiffer and sentences longer for attacks that are hate-motivated. If they stay away until they are eligible for AARP benefits, I'd be happy.
45
OK Dan, so the death penalty thing was only an expression.
How do you feel about the porn actor that attacked a WSU chick getting a LIFE SENTANCE for it?
You posted about it when it originally broke. How do you feel about the ruling?
I'm surprised this hasn't made Slog yet:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/lo…
Full picture set of him (NSFW)
http://blog.waybig.com/2007/02/16/jack-v…
How do you feel about the porn actor that attacked a WSU chick getting a LIFE SENTANCE for it?
You posted about it when it originally broke. How do you feel about the ruling?
I'm surprised this hasn't made Slog yet:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/lo…
Full picture set of him (NSFW)
http://blog.waybig.com/2007/02/16/jack-v…
47
@19
>Trying to connect Rick Warren to this horrific crime is just an inappropriate stretch.<
What I am connecting to this horrific crime is the contagion of violence inherent in organized religion's verbal, homophobic, anti-gay attacks. Before he was invited to "pray" at the inauguration, Rick Warren compared gay people to pedophiles, perverts and incest perpetrators. If you think the hate in those comparisons isn't contagious, then, naturally, you wouldn't see a connection.
I do, and perhaps you should stretch a bit to see if the basic concepts of gay hating and lesbian-raping ring any connection bells. How about gay hating and killing gays? See any connection? How about the symbolic pink triangles Gay people were made to wear under Hitler and the attacks on people with symbolic rainbow stickers on their cars? Are you getting any closer, any closer at all, to considering the connection?
How you can speak of tolerance and the so-called "inherent revulsion" that people have toward the idea of intimacy or sex between two consenting adults of the same gender in the same breath is the breath you take away from me each time you speak of your intolerant tolerance. The four males who gang-raped a gay woman didn't kill her; they were passing along a message of revulsion. We got the message...a long time ago.
Rape is a statement of raw power politics. Four bad men, four bigger, stronger, inhuman thugs gang raping a lesbian is ALL about small dicks, big egos and a majority of the country calling gay people revolting. What part of that connection don't you get?
>Trying to connect Rick Warren to this horrific crime is just an inappropriate stretch.<
What I am connecting to this horrific crime is the contagion of violence inherent in organized religion's verbal, homophobic, anti-gay attacks. Before he was invited to "pray" at the inauguration, Rick Warren compared gay people to pedophiles, perverts and incest perpetrators. If you think the hate in those comparisons isn't contagious, then, naturally, you wouldn't see a connection.
I do, and perhaps you should stretch a bit to see if the basic concepts of gay hating and lesbian-raping ring any connection bells. How about gay hating and killing gays? See any connection? How about the symbolic pink triangles Gay people were made to wear under Hitler and the attacks on people with symbolic rainbow stickers on their cars? Are you getting any closer, any closer at all, to considering the connection?
How you can speak of tolerance and the so-called "inherent revulsion" that people have toward the idea of intimacy or sex between two consenting adults of the same gender in the same breath is the breath you take away from me each time you speak of your intolerant tolerance. The four males who gang-raped a gay woman didn't kill her; they were passing along a message of revulsion. We got the message...a long time ago.
Rape is a statement of raw power politics. Four bad men, four bigger, stronger, inhuman thugs gang raping a lesbian is ALL about small dicks, big egos and a majority of the country calling gay people revolting. What part of that connection don't you get?
48
omg guys, Dan is not a policy maker. Get over yourselves for acting like he's your elected official! he has a right to his own opinions, whether you agree with them or not.
In my opinion, I think all cases of rape deserve the death penalty. Rape is a horrible crime.
In my opinion, I think all cases of rape deserve the death penalty. Rape is a horrible crime.
49
@34: here is a link from your stated source of information: http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/node/193…
it lists a few cases in which someone was executed despite doubts as to their guilt. The page also mentions that courts often do not try cases pertaining to innocent people who have already been put to death. Now, perhaps you meant that no evidence of an innocent person's death has been proven outright. Perhaps that's true. But there are plenty of well documented cases of people who have been exonerated through DNA testing after many years on death row (look up the Innocence Project). The evidence shows that innocent people can very well be sentenced to death, and it logically follows that not all of them will be exonerated in time. The man I talked to who had been on death row for 22 years spoke of a friend who he knew for 11 years in jail that he had to walk to the holding cell where people are put right before they are executed. His friend was killed, and a month later he said that DNA tests had found his friend innocent. I'm much more inclined to believe his story than the courts' apparent lack of ability to formally recognize the death of an innocent person. In fact, I don't see how you could possibly believe that no innocent people have been executed since 1976. Our justice system is far from perfect, and there are plenty of people who care more about their own personal success than saving someone else's life.
it lists a few cases in which someone was executed despite doubts as to their guilt. The page also mentions that courts often do not try cases pertaining to innocent people who have already been put to death. Now, perhaps you meant that no evidence of an innocent person's death has been proven outright. Perhaps that's true. But there are plenty of well documented cases of people who have been exonerated through DNA testing after many years on death row (look up the Innocence Project). The evidence shows that innocent people can very well be sentenced to death, and it logically follows that not all of them will be exonerated in time. The man I talked to who had been on death row for 22 years spoke of a friend who he knew for 11 years in jail that he had to walk to the holding cell where people are put right before they are executed. His friend was killed, and a month later he said that DNA tests had found his friend innocent. I'm much more inclined to believe his story than the courts' apparent lack of ability to formally recognize the death of an innocent person. In fact, I don't see how you could possibly believe that no innocent people have been executed since 1976. Our justice system is far from perfect, and there are plenty of people who care more about their own personal success than saving someone else's life.
50
Since the issue has been raised . . .
When people in positions of social power (i.e. pastors, politician, the mormon church) assert that certain groups in society (i.e. gays, blacks, women, latinos) are less than fully human, then those people in society who are more okay with using violence do hear a message about who it is okay to direct their violence towards.
No matter how nuanced or articulate a person is in their assertion of a group's less-than-fully-humaness, the part of the message that gets heard is one that condones removing the concern or respect that is shown people who are considered to be fully human, whether that treatment is acted out as social alienation or actions like this rape/assualt.
So yes, when Pastor Warren asserts the less-than-fully-human-worthiness status of gays, then he indirectly supports and encourages the kind of violence this thread is about.
And yes, that Obama chose someone with the views Warren has to be in such a historic and high profile event like the inauguration is reprehensible and just clueless.
However, as I've said elsewhere on Slog, politically I don't believe this is the issue we should go all armegeddon on Obama about. There is time for that later if Obama turns out to have truly "thrown us under the bus." If Obama comes through on significant political issues - as he has affirmed that he is disposed to do - then on a political level I won't care that Pastor Warren was at the inauguration - no matter how reprehensible or clueless it was.
Yes, it should concern us all that someone like Pastor Warren was given this role, and yes, we should all be on alert and pay more attention to what Obama is and will be doing - and to be more vocal about it. At the same time it is a fact there are people like Rick Warren in the world, and I do prefer that we cultivate some kind of relationship with them rather than just ignoring them and hoping they will somehow magically go away. So far this latter approach does not seem to have worked very well.
More...
When people in positions of social power (i.e. pastors, politician, the mormon church) assert that certain groups in society (i.e. gays, blacks, women, latinos) are less than fully human, then those people in society who are more okay with using violence do hear a message about who it is okay to direct their violence towards.
No matter how nuanced or articulate a person is in their assertion of a group's less-than-fully-humaness, the part of the message that gets heard is one that condones removing the concern or respect that is shown people who are considered to be fully human, whether that treatment is acted out as social alienation or actions like this rape/assualt.
So yes, when Pastor Warren asserts the less-than-fully-human-worthiness status of gays, then he indirectly supports and encourages the kind of violence this thread is about.
And yes, that Obama chose someone with the views Warren has to be in such a historic and high profile event like the inauguration is reprehensible and just clueless.
However, as I've said elsewhere on Slog, politically I don't believe this is the issue we should go all armegeddon on Obama about. There is time for that later if Obama turns out to have truly "thrown us under the bus." If Obama comes through on significant political issues - as he has affirmed that he is disposed to do - then on a political level I won't care that Pastor Warren was at the inauguration - no matter how reprehensible or clueless it was.
Yes, it should concern us all that someone like Pastor Warren was given this role, and yes, we should all be on alert and pay more attention to what Obama is and will be doing - and to be more vocal about it. At the same time it is a fact there are people like Rick Warren in the world, and I do prefer that we cultivate some kind of relationship with them rather than just ignoring them and hoping they will somehow magically go away. So far this latter approach does not seem to have worked very well.
51
I dont' know if I saw this in the Stranger or another paper-a woman wore a sandwich board outside a store where she had been caught shoplifting. I say community service wearing a sign stating their crime.
@41, thanks for the info
@41, thanks for the info
52
Since the issue has been raised . . .
When people in positions of social power
(i.e. prominent homosexual publisher/columnist/activist)
assert that certain groups in society (i.e. blacks, latinos, Evangelicals, Catholics, Mormons) are less than fully human, then those people in society who are more okay with using violence do hear a message about who it is okay to direct their violence towards.
No matter how nuanced or articulate a person is in their assertion of a group's less-than-fully-humaness, the part of the message that gets heard is one that condones removing the concern or respect that is shown people who are considered to be fully human, whether that treatment is acted out as social alienation or actions like this rape/assualt. Or property damage. Or ‘white powder’ terrorism. Or economic harrassment. Or selective application of capital punishment.
So yes, when Dan Savage asserts the less-than-fully-human-worthiness status of people who oppose gay marriage, then he indirectly supports and encourages the kind of violence this thread is about.
When people in positions of social power
(i.e. prominent homosexual publisher/columnist/activist)
assert that certain groups in society (i.e. blacks, latinos, Evangelicals, Catholics, Mormons) are less than fully human, then those people in society who are more okay with using violence do hear a message about who it is okay to direct their violence towards.
No matter how nuanced or articulate a person is in their assertion of a group's less-than-fully-humaness, the part of the message that gets heard is one that condones removing the concern or respect that is shown people who are considered to be fully human, whether that treatment is acted out as social alienation or actions like this rape/assualt. Or property damage. Or ‘white powder’ terrorism. Or economic harrassment. Or selective application of capital punishment.
So yes, when Dan Savage asserts the less-than-fully-human-worthiness status of people who oppose gay marriage, then he indirectly supports and encourages the kind of violence this thread is about.
53
Though I don't think anyone should try to directly blame religious leaders for this attack, (Something tells me these guys weren't particularly pious men) I do think an overall societal attitude toward gay folks makes it easier for people to rationalize attacking them. In that regard, religious leaders are not helping. For the most part, they remain silent in the face of such attacks.
54
I doubt these guys wouldn't have raped her if they hadn't noticed the rainbow..every rape I believe comes from hate. I hope she receives all the help in the world to get over this horrible experience just as well as every other woman/kid that gets assualted. The premise of rapeing someone because she is a "lesbian" may be possible but I really believe it's just the fact that those bastards wanted to get an easy fuck and some laughs to somehow show off and demostrate to themselfs how powerfull they can be.
Eather way, hate is hate, do you think someone can rape another person without hate? It's always something they hate about the other person or something they hate about themselfs.
Eather way, hate is hate, do you think someone can rape another person without hate? It's always something they hate about the other person or something they hate about themselfs.
55
I'd be happy with 25 yrs. without parole. The adult, however, should get fifty years. I think the death penalty should be applied only in certain circumstances. Like a Charles Campbell.
56
@52 we all know Dan Savage has a bit of a screw loose and makes his living by making provacative statements for no other point than being provocative, and then frequently tries to assert some lofty justification for having made them. As for the gays, we were not just sitting around and decided to go strip churches of their legal standing of equal tratment. Generally speaking the gays have a live and live attitude, as in you can have your right tyour batshit crazy right wing religious beliefs, but don,t try to force them on me and everybody else. That's what the churches and others did do with prop 8 is to force their religious beliefs on everyone else. No one was forcing them to go marry a gay. Simply put they just couldn't stand the idea that gays could be treated equal to them. No one has yet provided any intelligible explanation of what they mean by "sanctity of marriage' and the sexual intercourse of two people of opposit sex sometimes resulting into reproduction (a physical act of transmitting genes and dna) somehow means that two people's love ans commitment to each other (an emotional state) who are the same sex should not be entitled to the equal treatment as opposit sex couple's love and commitment to each other. Opposit sex couples fucking and sometimes having babies was going on a long time before marriage was invented so you can't say the survival of the species is somehow dependent on marriage. There doesn't seem tobe any way around it; saying that an opposite sex couple's love for each other deserves special rights and benefits (and a special word "marriage") because sometimes their fucking results in reproduction and that a same sex couple's love doesn't is biased. What it does sound like is that people who have attraction to the opposite sex are uncomfortable and insecure about being with their sexuality and feeling good about it, and so they need some "nobler" rationale to help them feel okay about acting on their sexual desire.
More...
57
56
You have it backwards, Mommie Dearest.
The status of marriage is what it has been.
For centuries.
Homosexuals want to change the status quo
and force their religious view of marriage
on the other 98% of America.
I personally will see to it
that that doesn't fly.
You have it backwards, Mommie Dearest.
The status of marriage is what it has been.
For centuries.
Homosexuals want to change the status quo
and force their religious view of marriage
on the other 98% of America.
I personally will see to it
that that doesn't fly.
58
So ... priests raping kids is ok then?
Yeah, let's face it, you're assuming the death penalty would stop this.
But the reality is the ONLY thing that impacts must such things is the CERTAINTY of being CAUGHT, TRIED, and then SENTENCED.
Not the actual execution or life sentence - it's the capture and public action up to that point that impacts behavior.
And even then, some people are amoral or just don't care if they're caught at the time they do things like this.
I know you want the world to be perfect, but it ain't.
Yeah, let's face it, you're assuming the death penalty would stop this.
But the reality is the ONLY thing that impacts must such things is the CERTAINTY of being CAUGHT, TRIED, and then SENTENCED.
Not the actual execution or life sentence - it's the capture and public action up to that point that impacts behavior.
And even then, some people are amoral or just don't care if they're caught at the time they do things like this.
I know you want the world to be perfect, but it ain't.
60
@ 57 You make my case. Historically speaking marriage has taken many forms over the centuries, including polygamous marriages, though mostly marriage was only allowed for the wealthy or in cultures the queen and king. The average people of all sexual orientations were not allowed to marry. Yes marriage is mostly an invention of patriarchal cultures which are obsessed with property being inherited through the male lineage. Marriage as we know it today (in the U.S.) was invented about 150 years ago although really only 40 or so years ago when the
61
. . . 40 years ago or so when the divorce laws were updated to what they are now. (Stephanie Coontz " The Way We Never Were" and The Way We Really Are" are great reading on this). When the facts about marriage are known then all you have left is the need to treat someone else as less-than-fully-human.
62
...so if she was straight/didn't have a rainbow sticker, then let 'em live?
there's some equality.
there's some equality.
63
@60 61
You make my case.
You seek to replace current law with one that reflects your religious viewpoint.
Me and my buddy Barak won't let that happen.
You make my case.
You seek to replace current law with one that reflects your religious viewpoint.
Me and my buddy Barak won't let that happen.
64
@60
gee Ma, I hope you don't help the kids with their history homework! (or their biology, btw)
Marriage as it currently exist (one man one woman) has been the rule for CENTURIES in the west.
It has NEVER been same gender.
It has never been polygamous in the west since the Romans.
Keep your religious beliefs out of our Constitution.
gee Ma, I hope you don't help the kids with their history homework! (or their biology, btw)
Marriage as it currently exist (one man one woman) has been the rule for CENTURIES in the west.
It has NEVER been same gender.
It has never been polygamous in the west since the Romans.
Keep your religious beliefs out of our Constitution.
65
So beating and raping your wife is still ok then, daddy-o?
Cause it was up until about 40 or 50 years ago.
Ask the Supreme Court.
Cause it was up until about 40 or 50 years ago.
Ask the Supreme Court.
66
@ 3and 8- very weak way to rationalize your racism.
So, if the attackers had been white then the crime would be less offensive to your racist sensibilites?
So, if the attackers had been white then the crime would be less offensive to your racist sensibilites?
67
when you don't support the death penalty except in cases where it makes you so angry you want someone to die... then you support the death penalty.
just sayin.
just sayin.
68
65
I asked the Supreme Court and they said Slavery was legal 170 yrs ago but that didn't have anything to do with gay 'marriage' either.
focus.
I asked the Supreme Court and they said Slavery was legal 170 yrs ago but that didn't have anything to do with gay 'marriage' either.
focus.
69
@49 Citrus,
Thanks for your response. Indeed, I stand by what I said (See #34). The word should be "evidence" but I believe no person has been put to death of a particular Capital crime since 1976. Yes, several people on Death Row (and several men convicted of rape) have been exonerated and have been released from prison recently. Criminologist James Q. Wilson in a NY Times editorial asserts with DNA testing that the system does indeed work. I am aware of the great efforts of Peter Neufeld and others seeking to investigate claims of innocence of prisoners on death Row. That is noble. And, I believe the Death Penalty should be applied rarely but I still approve of it.
BTW, I do know of at least one case where DNA evidence proved that a Death Row inmate was executed despite his cries of innocence. It was a case reviewed in Virginia earlier in this decade. I like to say quite cynically, that it is easier to lie than to murder. Very few authentic killers claim guilt.
Thanks for your response. Indeed, I stand by what I said (See #34). The word should be "evidence" but I believe no person has been put to death of a particular Capital crime since 1976. Yes, several people on Death Row (and several men convicted of rape) have been exonerated and have been released from prison recently. Criminologist James Q. Wilson in a NY Times editorial asserts with DNA testing that the system does indeed work. I am aware of the great efforts of Peter Neufeld and others seeking to investigate claims of innocence of prisoners on death Row. That is noble. And, I believe the Death Penalty should be applied rarely but I still approve of it.
BTW, I do know of at least one case where DNA evidence proved that a Death Row inmate was executed despite his cries of innocence. It was a case reviewed in Virginia earlier in this decade. I like to say quite cynically, that it is easier to lie than to murder. Very few authentic killers claim guilt.
71
The death penalty is wrong in all cases, as is any kind of retributive punishment.
This crime is not significantly worse than any other occurrence of rape.
Anyone making the claim that these men ought to be raped or castrated is on the same moral level as these men and is probably sexist.
The end.
This crime is not significantly worse than any other occurrence of rape.
Anyone making the claim that these men ought to be raped or castrated is on the same moral level as these men and is probably sexist.
The end.
72
I'm against the death penalty with no exceptions. The State of California should show its outrage at this crime by locking these men up for life in the worst prison in the state.
73
For those against the imposition of the death penalty, would you support self-inflicted capital punishment? We approach the future cellmates of these scumbags and guarantee some amount of financial support for their loved ones on the outside in exchange for the promise to mete out twice-daily 45 minute brutal rape/assaults on the perpetrators. Before long, these animals kill themselves just to relieve their own suffering. Problem solved and it probably costs less money than to house them for the duration of their sentences.
76
Hello!
It is interested very much.
Please link to this site.
http://love-marriage-lover-couple.blogsp…
It is interested very much.
Please link to this site.
http://love-marriage-lover-couple.blogsp…
77
When will there be an outcry in the media or public about the absolutely staggering amount of white women being attacked by blacks and Mexicans?
The only reason this story made it national is because the victim is a lesbian.
White women are raped in numbers over 100 a day. Hey, naive white liberals, the vast majority of blacks and Mexicans are very homophobic and conservative and hate your gay ass. Or maybe you didn't notice? How strange, funny how many "progressive liberals" live in super-white Seattle.
According to the USDOJ, in the year 2005 alone, black men (3% of the population) raped or sexually assaulted over 37,460 white women. That same year, less than ten black women were raped or sexually assulted by white men, (and actually the number statistically approaches zero), but that didn't stop us from hearing non-stop for months in the media about the one white-on-black NON-rape case (the Duke Lacrosse fraud). Those numbers don't even include the number of white women raped by mestizos (Mexicans etc).
Be aware that the FBI and USDOJ count Mestizos (the proper ethnic term for most "Mexicans" or "Latinos") as being WHITE, which unfairly raises the reported "white crime rate" much higher than it actually is. Most Police Departments in the USA also do the same thing. Don't believe me? Check out the Sex Offender page of the Grand Prairie, Texas (a large suburb of Dallas) Police Department. Every Mestizo is categorized as being "white".
http://www.grandprairiepolice.org/sexoff…
Just about every state and local agency does this. Here are some examples from Washington state. Do these guys look white to you???
ml.waspc.org/offender.aspx?pid=292821&na…
ml.waspc.org/offender.aspx?pid=1094963&n…
Again, if this woman had not been a lesbian, this story would have never made national news, and of course the media completely ignores the most important part of the story.
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/ra…
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2006/data/tab…
More...
The only reason this story made it national is because the victim is a lesbian.
White women are raped in numbers over 100 a day. Hey, naive white liberals, the vast majority of blacks and Mexicans are very homophobic and conservative and hate your gay ass. Or maybe you didn't notice? How strange, funny how many "progressive liberals" live in super-white Seattle.
According to the USDOJ, in the year 2005 alone, black men (3% of the population) raped or sexually assaulted over 37,460 white women. That same year, less than ten black women were raped or sexually assulted by white men, (and actually the number statistically approaches zero), but that didn't stop us from hearing non-stop for months in the media about the one white-on-black NON-rape case (the Duke Lacrosse fraud). Those numbers don't even include the number of white women raped by mestizos (Mexicans etc).
Be aware that the FBI and USDOJ count Mestizos (the proper ethnic term for most "Mexicans" or "Latinos") as being WHITE, which unfairly raises the reported "white crime rate" much higher than it actually is. Most Police Departments in the USA also do the same thing. Don't believe me? Check out the Sex Offender page of the Grand Prairie, Texas (a large suburb of Dallas) Police Department. Every Mestizo is categorized as being "white".
http://www.grandprairiepolice.org/sexoff…
Just about every state and local agency does this. Here are some examples from Washington state. Do these guys look white to you???
ml.waspc.org/offender.aspx?pid=292821&na…
ml.waspc.org/offender.aspx?pid=1094963&n…
Again, if this woman had not been a lesbian, this story would have never made national news, and of course the media completely ignores the most important part of the story.
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/ra…
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2006/data/tab…
78
http://www.mercurynews.com/breakingnews/…
"Police said the victim described the ringleader as a Latino man in his 30s, about 5 feet 6 inches tall and weighing about 180 pounds, with black hair and brown eyes. He had a mustache and his breath smelled of alcohol. He primarily spoke Spanish.
His main accomplice was a black man in his early 20s, about 5-foot-10 and 170 pounds with black hair and brown eyes, who was called "Blue" by his colleagues, police said.
Two other Latino men also participated. Both were in their late teens or early 20s, and one was called "Pato," police said."
"Police said the victim described the ringleader as a Latino man in his 30s, about 5 feet 6 inches tall and weighing about 180 pounds, with black hair and brown eyes. He had a mustache and his breath smelled of alcohol. He primarily spoke Spanish.
His main accomplice was a black man in his early 20s, about 5-foot-10 and 170 pounds with black hair and brown eyes, who was called "Blue" by his colleagues, police said.
Two other Latino men also participated. Both were in their late teens or early 20s, and one was called "Pato," police said."
79
77
"How strange, funny how many "progressive liberals" live in super-white Seattle."
Liberals are OK with the idea of negroes,
as long as they don't have to personally deal with the reality.
"How strange, funny how many "progressive liberals" live in super-white Seattle."
Liberals are OK with the idea of negroes,
as long as they don't have to personally deal with the reality.
80
@69
I reread my comments and I want to correct what I said. In the second paragraph, I wrote "...Death Row inmate was executed..." I meant to say "...Death Row inmate was confirmed guilty and then executed..." despite his protestations. That's an important distinction. My bad.
I reread my comments and I want to correct what I said. In the second paragraph, I wrote "...Death Row inmate was executed..." I meant to say "...Death Row inmate was confirmed guilty and then executed..." despite his protestations. That's an important distinction. My bad.
81
there are good and bad people in this world,whatever the culture,race,class,religious belief,sexual orientation.NO ONE group of people deserves special treatment,just equality as fellow human beings.resist the bad,celebrate the good,and have enough wisdom to know the difference.
82
#81.
And that's why your post will never come about (no matter its unarguable virtue). One person's "good" is another person's abomination. One person's "bad" is another person's harmless recreation. Moreover, people--as a rule--don't possess "wisdom."
"Sinners"--as a rule--don't try to convince the pious to sin. But those pious? They can't seem to leave us sinners the fuck alone.
Hence, "equality as fellow human beings" will take a long, long time to be a reality for LGBT folk. Especially when other historically oppressed groups also see us as "bad."
have enough wisdom to know the difference.
And that's why your post will never come about (no matter its unarguable virtue). One person's "good" is another person's abomination. One person's "bad" is another person's harmless recreation. Moreover, people--as a rule--don't possess "wisdom."
"Sinners"--as a rule--don't try to convince the pious to sin. But those pious? They can't seem to leave us sinners the fuck alone.
Hence, "equality as fellow human beings" will take a long, long time to be a reality for LGBT folk. Especially when other historically oppressed groups also see us as "bad."
83
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84
All these churches who insist on condemning homosexuality as a sin, and gays as sinners, and insisting there is no place in our secular society for the equal treatment of gays have some responsibility for this crime too. Violence against gays has risen since W. called for a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage, elevating the profile of this fight. They try to wash their hands of the lone wolves they turn loose to victimize others, but their words have consequences.
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