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News & ArtsWednesday, December 31, 2008
City Salt! It's Magical!
Posted by Erica C. Barnett on Wed, Dec 31, 2008 at 12:35 PM
I'm of two minds about the mayor's decision to promise the city will use salt to clear snow- and ice-bound roads in the future. On one hand, whatevs. Unless global warming rapidly accelerates and produces much icier, snowier winters right away, we aren't likely to have another storm like this month's in a good long while; the last time we had this much snow that hung around as long as it did this time was more than 20 years ago. So in that sense, pandering to the pro-salt voices in the city may make sense. (The mayor practically acknowledged that was what he was doing this morning, noting that the city was "open[ing] up the toolbox just a little bit wider than it has in the past" but acknowledging that the city didn't know which circumstances would warrant using salt; "When we get there, we're just going to use our best professional judgment," he said.)
On the other hand, pandering to a bunch of hysterics who think salt is a magical fairy dust that makes snow disappear seems unnecessary. Salt is not a panacea, as people who've lived in the Northeast and Midwest will readily tell you. It can stick to surfaces (just like sand) and it doesn't work well in conditions like the recent storm, when the ice melted and froze and melted again. And, yes, it gets into creeks, streams and rivers, harming aquatic life and killing plants. Those concerns are why the city ended the use of salt in 1998. Changing that policy because of one weather event is shortsighted public policy.
In other snow-related news, Nickels announced that the city will hire private contractors to clean up the sand and gravel still littering city streets. The city probably won't buy new snow plows—"having snow plows sitting there idle for 10 years or more may not make sense," Nickels said—but they will be talking to King County Metro about how to better coordinate snow service on city streets in the future. The City Council, which was somewhat blindsided by the mayor's announcement (he didn't tell them he was changing the salt policy in advance) still plans to hold a series of public meetings on the city's snow response; full schedule is available here.
1
To be fair to Nickels, there's no reason on earth why he should pay the slightest bit of attention to the Council. What are they going to do, frown at him?
2
Actually, had the streets been cleared of snow *to the pavement* and salted right at the outset, then the slush and melting/freezing thing wouldn't have been a problem on the streets at all. The roadways would have been basically clear, and the snowplows would have needed do only touch-up work on arterials WHILE THEY THEN TURNED TO SIDE STREETS. While it's true you don't salt slush, we didn't have slush until a couple of days into the snowy spell.
3
Nobody's asking to spread salt all over the place at the first sign of flakes. But rather, it should be held in reserve for storms that hit a certain threshold - measure it in inches, or traffic mobility, or what have you. However you do it, it'll be a rare storm that calls for salting the roads.
Those who are from New England, like myself, will tell you that salting the roads in conjunction with sanding, plowing, and network management DOES work.
And by the way - when did it become OK to use the word hysterical to describe someone who disagreed with you? Because you used to think that was sexist.
Those who are from New England, like myself, will tell you that salting the roads in conjunction with sanding, plowing, and network management DOES work.
And by the way - when did it become OK to use the word hysterical to describe someone who disagreed with you? Because you used to think that was sexist.
4
Problem solved, I guess. But, we wouldn't want to deny people those ever-so-effective public meetings, would we? It makes the City Council members feel like they're doing something.
6
Admit it, you're in favor of anything that prevents people from driving. If giant steel-toothed weasels overran the city streets, growing fat on a steady diet of cars and their passengers, you'd post about how you're "of two minds" on the giant car-eating-weasels issue.
9
Slightly off topic rant:
What able bodied persons here shoveled their walk and the length of sidewalk in front of their house? It doesn't snow like that all that much in Seattle, but just so you know, it's your civic duty to, as much as it is the city's duty to keep roads clear.
I was there for a good stretch of this last holiday storm, snowed in on Phinney ridge most of the time, and I saw maybe 5% of people there actually cleared their sidewalks (some nice folks even did whole blocks themselves). The entire length of Greenwood from 85th to 65th, hardly a single business or home shoveled the sidewalk. I never knew this was a pet peeve of mine until I read all the frustration over what the city isn't doing for residents, when few residents were doing anything for each other.
What able bodied persons here shoveled their walk and the length of sidewalk in front of their house? It doesn't snow like that all that much in Seattle, but just so you know, it's your civic duty to, as much as it is the city's duty to keep roads clear.
I was there for a good stretch of this last holiday storm, snowed in on Phinney ridge most of the time, and I saw maybe 5% of people there actually cleared their sidewalks (some nice folks even did whole blocks themselves). The entire length of Greenwood from 85th to 65th, hardly a single business or home shoveled the sidewalk. I never knew this was a pet peeve of mine until I read all the frustration over what the city isn't doing for residents, when few residents were doing anything for each other.
10
"warming rapidly accelerates and produces much icier, snowier winters..." What? So let me understand, as things get warmer around the globe we get more ice and snow? Is the converse true, as it gets colder we have higher temperatures and heat waves? Someone please explain this. Something about this is not making any sense.
11
It sounds like there was a large outcry from citizens and this changed the stance on the issue.
Isn't that what having representatives is about? I'm of two minds on the issue, but it is a good sign that this seems to be reflexive of the will of the public (taking in to account your point that salt will hardly be needed, of course)
It's not pandering, it is a political shift that happened as a direct result to the outcry of the city.
That's fucking awesome
Isn't that what having representatives is about? I'm of two minds on the issue, but it is a good sign that this seems to be reflexive of the will of the public (taking in to account your point that salt will hardly be needed, of course)
It's not pandering, it is a political shift that happened as a direct result to the outcry of the city.
That's fucking awesome
14
I shoveled my walk and entire sidewalk on both sides -- I live on a corner (on Phinney). I crippled my back in the process -- three days of screaming agony. No one else on my block did, although the mystery techno-house one block up appears to have heated sidewalks, as their sidewalk was clear the whole time, even when it was still falling.
Prediction: in a few years we'll have another snowfall similar to this one, and they'll use salt, and it won't make a goddamn bit of difference.
Prediction: in a few years we'll have another snowfall similar to this one, and they'll use salt, and it won't make a goddamn bit of difference.
15
@10, the planet is not like your living room. It doesn't just get a degree hotter or colder. It's all about ocean temperatures, which in turn affect wind patterns. Think El Nino & La Nina, only more so. Global warming is going to bring more moisture, more storms, and more extreme swings of temperature. It's not at all surprising to get colder, wetter winters in some places even though the global average temperature (over entire years) is rising. It's a system, a vast one.
16
"Those concerns are why the city ended the use of salt in 1998. Changing that policy because of one weather event is shortsighted public policy."
Yes, Erica, I agree! Changing the salt-policy back in '98 because of one weather event was short-sighted, indeed! The Great Snowpocalypse of '08 has proved that point, in spades. So nice to finally agree with you about something!!!
Wait, what? Oh........... Never mind.
Yes, Erica, I agree! Changing the salt-policy back in '98 because of one weather event was short-sighted, indeed! The Great Snowpocalypse of '08 has proved that point, in spades. So nice to finally agree with you about something!!!
Wait, what? Oh........... Never mind.
17
@9 and @14, I too shoveled my walk, and the walks of the widowed lady two doors down and the guy across the street who's undergoing chemo.
I think instead of a massive city investment in more plows, why couldn't the city set up a network of supply sheds near certain known trouble spots-- one bad block here or there is all it takes to cut off a neighborhood. Neighbors could clear a one block segment faster than the city if they were provided access to a few tools and supplies. Combine that with a system of hiring on-call contractors (carpenters, plumbers, anybody who can attach a plow to their pickup), and you'd have the side streets taken care of while the city focused their few plows on the major streets.
Power (and salt and shovels) to the people.
I think instead of a massive city investment in more plows, why couldn't the city set up a network of supply sheds near certain known trouble spots-- one bad block here or there is all it takes to cut off a neighborhood. Neighbors could clear a one block segment faster than the city if they were provided access to a few tools and supplies. Combine that with a system of hiring on-call contractors (carpenters, plumbers, anybody who can attach a plow to their pickup), and you'd have the side streets taken care of while the city focused their few plows on the major streets.
Power (and salt and shovels) to the people.
18
#14 - whoa, you don't live on (without being too specific, so let's say in the high 70's and Fremont), do you? I was at my sisters, who shoveled hers, but was the only one on the block until some poor soul out there all day the 26th trying to get the rest of the block.
21
Even in the snowy midwest they don't plow sidestreets. get the SALT out of your vaginas and buy some chains your wusses.
I was out driving most days and most if not all of the major streets and arterials were clear. Everyone is just a big goverment whiner. Learn how you use chains and drive in the snow.
I was out driving most days and most if not all of the major streets and arterials were clear. Everyone is just a big goverment whiner. Learn how you use chains and drive in the snow.
22
@10: The prediction for a global-warming future is that Seattle will have hotter, drier summers and colder, wetter winters.
23
I cleared my walk about four times with a garden shovel, a rake, and a broom. It would have been a lot easier with a snow shovel, but several times over the last few summers I turned away from the snow shovels in the hardware store because I knew I'd hardly ever use it. Since my 5 month old will be in High School the next time we get snow like this, I still don't see any reason to buy one. I'm sure his strong young back will hold up fine.
By the same token, it would be a waste of money to stockpile salt, and we won't find any for sale at the last minute, any more than you can find any snow shovels in stock the day after a huge storm. The inability to think through these things is why wingers can't govern, but they're easy to placate with feelgood promises.
By the same token, it would be a waste of money to stockpile salt, and we won't find any for sale at the last minute, any more than you can find any snow shovels in stock the day after a huge storm. The inability to think through these things is why wingers can't govern, but they're easy to placate with feelgood promises.
24
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26
@9
We ain't got no stinking sidewalks. The city of Seattle would prefer that we use cars, so they don't give us sidewalks.
That said, we did shovel out a snow-free corridor along the pavement so that human beings could ambulate safely up the hill.
We ain't got no stinking sidewalks. The city of Seattle would prefer that we use cars, so they don't give us sidewalks.
That said, we did shovel out a snow-free corridor along the pavement so that human beings could ambulate safely up the hill.
27
Actually, every person I've ever talked to from the Midwest seems to think that salt is a panacea (and by the way, thank you for using that very pretentious word that I had to look up). If I had a nickel for every time I heard for every time I heard "We had snow like this back east, but it wasn't a big deal because they salt the roads!", I'd have well over a dollar.
28
This has nothing to do with global warming. We have been having these storms for hundred of years in the Northwest.
30
@10
You seriously need to go back and take some high school science classes.
Global warming means that too much heat is being retained in the earth's atmosphere, globally. This excess heat transfers to the oceans. The interplay of the atmosphere and the oceans is largely what creates "weather." The earth is still tilted, however, so the earth still goes through seasons. It's not like global warming means that any time you look at a thermometer the temperature it reads is simply warmer by x degrees; global warming means that the "engine" of the weather (atmosphere/oceans) is running hotter, which means more weather *extremes.*
Every climate zone responds differently, but in Seattle global warming will bring hotter, drier summers and colder, snowier (wetter) winters, i.e. greater extremes.
You seriously need to go back and take some high school science classes.
Global warming means that too much heat is being retained in the earth's atmosphere, globally. This excess heat transfers to the oceans. The interplay of the atmosphere and the oceans is largely what creates "weather." The earth is still tilted, however, so the earth still goes through seasons. It's not like global warming means that any time you look at a thermometer the temperature it reads is simply warmer by x degrees; global warming means that the "engine" of the weather (atmosphere/oceans) is running hotter, which means more weather *extremes.*
Every climate zone responds differently, but in Seattle global warming will bring hotter, drier summers and colder, snowier (wetter) winters, i.e. greater extremes.
31
"Nickels announced that the city will hire private contractors to clean up the sand and gravel still littering city streets."
How about hiring some private contractors to COLLECT THE FUCKING TRASH ALREADY! For fuck's sake, is this Seattle or Calcutta?
How about hiring some private contractors to COLLECT THE FUCKING TRASH ALREADY! For fuck's sake, is this Seattle or Calcutta?
32
Wait, global warming is going to give us hotter, drier summers and colder, snowier winters? Rock!
33
They do plow side streets in the Midwest, at least South Dakota, where they get much much more snow at much colder temperatures. -21 anyone? There are dedicated emergency snowplow routes. Everyone has to move their cars from these streets, or face a huge fine along with having your car blocked in by 4 feet of snow on each side. After those are clear, they plow the sidestreets and use salt on icy patches. Which, if you plow properly, isn't everywhere.
I propose we make people who feel like they need to own a huge truck or SUV also own a plow. When it snows, they can use the huge vehicles they love to be the city's snow saviors.
I propose we make people who feel like they need to own a huge truck or SUV also own a plow. When it snows, they can use the huge vehicles they love to be the city's snow saviors.
35
In the tasteful garden district that is North Beacon Hill, our garbage was collected this morning.
As for shoveling the sidewalk, of course. That's what people of taste and distinction do.
I don't know about those north end slums. Nor do I want to know. They'd just as soon shoot you as say hello up there.
As for shoveling the sidewalk, of course. That's what people of taste and distinction do.
I don't know about those north end slums. Nor do I want to know. They'd just as soon shoot you as say hello up there.
37
If you have a garage and you don't drive, but there's bus service along major arterials, salt has next to no impact on your car.
38
Nickels announced a policy change before City Councilmembers, some of whom want to replace him in 2009, were all set to tear him a new one through public hearings? Shocking!
39
Erica, you don't think your opinion of cars (get rid of 'em) slightly biases your opinion about the effectiveness of salt? I live in the Midwest, we get snowstorms every few days, melting and refreezing happens almost daily. I can tell you that without salt, the roads would be impassible here. I know this because last year there was a salt shortage and the roads literally WERE impassible.
There comes a point were you have to judge the safety of others against environmental impact. I remember the picture you guys posted on slog a while back of that Seattle bus dangling over a freeway after skidding off the road. What if it had gone over? How many lives would have been lost?
If it's true that the recent Snowpocalypse is a once in a decade event in Seattle, then salting the roads during such events shouldn't cause that much harm to the environment.
There comes a point were you have to judge the safety of others against environmental impact. I remember the picture you guys posted on slog a while back of that Seattle bus dangling over a freeway after skidding off the road. What if it had gone over? How many lives would have been lost?
If it's true that the recent Snowpocalypse is a once in a decade event in Seattle, then salting the roads during such events shouldn't cause that much harm to the environment.
40
And not that car people who are for salt would give a shit about what salt can do to pedestrians, but salt is murder on shoes. The two years I was in Boston, I must have gone through eight pairs because the salt there (and I think it was CaCO3) would eat right through the leather and the souls would detach. This might be avoided if one were to be diligent about cleaning one's shoes upon every return home. Who wants to do that? Believe me, it gets old.
41
@37 - Will, if you have a car in a garage and don't drive, then EVERYTHING has next to no impact on your car.
42
Walking on salted streets makes souls depart? Wow.
Let's salt in the summer, spring, fall - maybe souls will reappear.
Who in their right mind would walk around in winter with leather soles?
Salting in Seattle during big snow events will cause very few if any environmental damages. Make sure that where salt will go into fresh water creeks it is used at the lowest possible level but add more attention to those areas.
Let's salt in the summer, spring, fall - maybe souls will reappear.
Who in their right mind would walk around in winter with leather soles?
Salting in Seattle during big snow events will cause very few if any environmental damages. Make sure that where salt will go into fresh water creeks it is used at the lowest possible level but add more attention to those areas.
43
@9. I would gladly happily shovel the sidewalk if we fucking had them! SE Seattle doesn't get such ammenities.
44
Actually, if Seattle starts salting, we'll have fewer cars. SALT WILL FUCK YOUR CAR. Don't salt. Sand.
45
Don't drive to Ocean Shores in your car - use a Zippy like ECB.
Crashing over the freeway railing will fuck up your bus and all the little morons in it. Oh and crashing your car in the ice will fuck up your car. And hitting all the ice bumps will fuck up your car.
Salt just brings out the flavor!
Crashing over the freeway railing will fuck up your bus and all the little morons in it. Oh and crashing your car in the ice will fuck up your car. And hitting all the ice bumps will fuck up your car.
Salt just brings out the flavor!
46
No, it depends, STJA. Sand and salt are used in different places - sand is better for traction, but salt melts and avoids black ice better - plus we have to dig up the local glacial till in the nearby islands or Snohomish County to get our sand, and that's a whole nightmare itself.
That said, as I learned when I shoveled snow for $5 to $10 growing up in the Rockies in BC, always bend your knees and don't rotate suddenly, and use your hips for leverage when shoveling. Don't bend over, it will take out your back if your muscles aren't used to it. For future advice, Fnarf.
There are a few places that sand would help, but only if we have sustained snowfalls over a few weeks - it also increases windshield cracks and harms birds sometimes.
That said, as I learned when I shoveled snow for $5 to $10 growing up in the Rockies in BC, always bend your knees and don't rotate suddenly, and use your hips for leverage when shoveling. Don't bend over, it will take out your back if your muscles aren't used to it. For future advice, Fnarf.
There are a few places that sand would help, but only if we have sustained snowfalls over a few weeks - it also increases windshield cracks and harms birds sometimes.
48
Who is going to decide if a storm meets this new threshold? Does anyone actually think they'll be able to not salt the roads the next time there is a storm? If there is any snow or ice on roads anywhere in Seattle, there will be whining that the roads must be salted immediately, and the storm will be deemed above the magical, moving threshold and the roads will be salted.
51
If you're going to do salting, then property owners should be fined $1,000 for every day sidewalks go unplowed after an event. That'd pay for the salt pretty quick!
52
Jesus christ. The reason Seattleites don't shovel is because the vast majority of them, not having needed to shovel since 1990 (or maybe 1996), don't own snow shovels. And when it became apparent that they might actually need them this time, found that either the local businesses were sold out of them, or they couldn't get to a place that might have them. Or both. And when you don't have a snow shovel, it can be hard to move that snow with the random stuff you do have. (Garden trowel... not helpful. Broom... not so good with more than a foot of snow.)
Yes, it would be nice if they all shoveled the walks like good Midwesterners, but it is not all that surprising that they don't, and I do cut people a little slack over it as long as their walk doesn't get way icy. Now, if they actually own a snow shovel and are strong enough to use it, they oughta get their asses out there and start shoveling.
(We didn't have a snow shovel. We used a spade to clear the sidewalk and it was awful work. And, gasp, I used salt on the steps.)
Yes, it would be nice if they all shoveled the walks like good Midwesterners, but it is not all that surprising that they don't, and I do cut people a little slack over it as long as their walk doesn't get way icy. Now, if they actually own a snow shovel and are strong enough to use it, they oughta get their asses out there and start shoveling.
(We didn't have a snow shovel. We used a spade to clear the sidewalk and it was awful work. And, gasp, I used salt on the steps.)
53
No transit. No commerce.
No commerce. No taxes.
No taxes. No funds for environmental laws, regulations and protections. No government whatsoever.
While the unreasonable extremes may drive the debate, the practical actually make life possible.
Money does not magically appear in the government coffers. A regulated cycle of commerce and trade are required to yield any gold in the pot.
At the time of year when commerce yields the greatest taxes for the coming year, the short-sighted foolishness of not ensuring that basic transit and services are functioning is a complete failure of government, especially in a recession when lost earnings and taxes can have the most negative impacts on those whose lives and livelihoods depend on them. To fail to hold the government accountable is a failure of society.
Shared burden for shared benefit is the basic premise of good government.
If you can anticipate the possibility of a snowstorm, you should prepare for it. Seattle is not in the tropics; so, it is reasonable to anticipate that the occasional snowstorm may come. Sharing the costs and logistics of preparing for such an occasional snowstorm can be easily shared by multiple municipalities working together in a metropolitan government structure or by simply cooperating through a governing council of neighboring municipalities that has been created specifically to address responses to inclement weather and natural disasters.
Balance, folks, balance...and a little practical common sense. Nothing more is required.
To quibble and do nothing is the mark of fools.
No commerce. No taxes.
No taxes. No funds for environmental laws, regulations and protections. No government whatsoever.
While the unreasonable extremes may drive the debate, the practical actually make life possible.
Money does not magically appear in the government coffers. A regulated cycle of commerce and trade are required to yield any gold in the pot.
At the time of year when commerce yields the greatest taxes for the coming year, the short-sighted foolishness of not ensuring that basic transit and services are functioning is a complete failure of government, especially in a recession when lost earnings and taxes can have the most negative impacts on those whose lives and livelihoods depend on them. To fail to hold the government accountable is a failure of society.
Shared burden for shared benefit is the basic premise of good government.
If you can anticipate the possibility of a snowstorm, you should prepare for it. Seattle is not in the tropics; so, it is reasonable to anticipate that the occasional snowstorm may come. Sharing the costs and logistics of preparing for such an occasional snowstorm can be easily shared by multiple municipalities working together in a metropolitan government structure or by simply cooperating through a governing council of neighboring municipalities that has been created specifically to address responses to inclement weather and natural disasters.
Balance, folks, balance...and a little practical common sense. Nothing more is required.
To quibble and do nothing is the mark of fools.
54
What able bodied persons here shoveled their walk and the length of sidewalk in front of their house? It doesn't snow like that all that much in Seattle, but just so you know, it's your civic duty to, as much as it is the city's duty to keep roads clear.
I was there for a good stretch of this last holiday storm, snowed in on Phinney ridge most of the time, and I saw maybe 5% of people there actually cleared their sidewalks (some nice folks even did whole blocks themselves). The entire length of Greenwood from 85th to 65th, hardly a single business or home shoveled the sidewalk. I never knew this was a pet peeve of mine until I read all the frustration over what the city isn't doing for residents, when few residents were doing anything for each other.
Posted by Dougsf
If you could have FOUND a snow shovel (or chains) for purchase I would have bought one... even though I live in an apartment complex. The nice man who found a snow shovel left behind by the elderly woman who owned his condo before him that lives next to my boyfriend's place shoveled out his driveway.
It's all well and good to harp on people for not being nice (but that gets old fast) but let's consider the economic realities of living in Seattle during snow... everything that you would want to deal with the snow DOESN'T EXIST FOR PURCHASE WITHIN CITY LIMITS- or in some cases, like mine, walking distance (1-2 miles of one's home).
It has nothing to do with being "able bodied" and everything to do with not being a dumb ass and clearing sidewalks with spatulas- the only thing that remotely resembled a SHOVEL in my apartment.
Ppft.
I was there for a good stretch of this last holiday storm, snowed in on Phinney ridge most of the time, and I saw maybe 5% of people there actually cleared their sidewalks (some nice folks even did whole blocks themselves). The entire length of Greenwood from 85th to 65th, hardly a single business or home shoveled the sidewalk. I never knew this was a pet peeve of mine until I read all the frustration over what the city isn't doing for residents, when few residents were doing anything for each other.
Posted by Dougsf
If you could have FOUND a snow shovel (or chains) for purchase I would have bought one... even though I live in an apartment complex. The nice man who found a snow shovel left behind by the elderly woman who owned his condo before him that lives next to my boyfriend's place shoveled out his driveway.
It's all well and good to harp on people for not being nice (but that gets old fast) but let's consider the economic realities of living in Seattle during snow... everything that you would want to deal with the snow DOESN'T EXIST FOR PURCHASE WITHIN CITY LIMITS- or in some cases, like mine, walking distance (1-2 miles of one's home).
It has nothing to do with being "able bodied" and everything to do with not being a dumb ass and clearing sidewalks with spatulas- the only thing that remotely resembled a SHOVEL in my apartment.
Ppft.
56
I think last week served as a great experiment. Now we know exactly how long it takes smugness to defrost a street.
57
#54 - That was directed at folk's complaining about the city's contingency plan. Exactly the same logic you used applies to city services.
Also, I actually think a lot of people don't know you should shovel your walk. I've done it with a garden shovel, it sucks, but it's not the end of the world.
Also, I actually think a lot of people don't know you should shovel your walk. I've done it with a garden shovel, it sucks, but it's not the end of the world.
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