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News & ArtsWednesday, December 31, 2008
News Headline of the Decade
Posted by Dan Savage on Wed, Dec 31, 2008 at 6:39 AM
Viaduct decision delayed
The reason for the delay?
A proposed tunnel to replace the Alaskan Way Viaduct is making a comeback. A key adviser to Gov. Christine Gregoire said Tuesday that replacing the viaduct with a deep-bored tunnel "is probably the most viable option"—if the numbers pencil out.The comments came after Gregoire, King County Executive Ron Sims and Seattle Mayor Greg Nickels issued a joint statement saying they would miss today's deadline for deciding how to replace the viaduct and needed more time to study the options.
We've been studying the options since 10:54 AM on February 28, 2001.
1
Well, if you're fond of over-priced, much-delayed, not-totally-solving-the-problem solutions, a tunnel is certainly an option.
After all, it worked well-enough for us here in Boston.
Seriously, it's better than it was. But I'm not convinced it was the best way to spend BILLIONS of dollars.
After all, it worked well-enough for us here in Boston.
Seriously, it's better than it was. But I'm not convinced it was the best way to spend BILLIONS of dollars.
3
I honestly wish we would have an 8.9 earthquake today, centered in Elliot Bay. Then, just maybe we will deal with the viaduct.....
Still I am sure we will study options for a few more years.....
Still I am sure we will study options for a few more years.....
4
Cato, if the viaduct falls down in an earthquake, we are likely to do just what San Francisco did with the Embarcadero -- realize that we didn't need it and surface streets do the job just fine.
5
Well, the more time & money they spend studying the problem, the more perfect the solution will finally be... right?
6
The reason the tunnel is making a comeback is because the two options will not work. Plain and simple. Three one way lanes of traffic going 50 mph up Western Avenue is just not a good idea. The experts speak in this article:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/op…
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/op…
7
Stall until we know how much money the Obama team will fork over for this project. If I was a local politician, I'd make sure every project on my plate has a "switch" that I can turn on to make it go. The more projects I have queued up ready to go, the more money I can get from the feds to pay for it.
My hunch is we'll see team Obama pay for both 520 and a tunneled viaduct. I would also expect them to help with Sound Transit.
Each of those projects are about 4-5 billion, so that is about $16 billion (always bump up a billion) on the table. Rumors are the Obama folk are looking at 600->800 billion in spending, so if my math is right, at is at most 2.6% of the Obama budget.
The only catch would be if Obama split the money evenly across all state (which I doubt). If he did, a $600 billion dollar budget would mean only $12 billion for us, so that would be the entirety of our states share. However, I'd imagine the budget would be divied up proportional to population, so basically split it proportional to something like electoral votes. We get 11 out of 538 votes, so about 2.1%. Still, that leaves us with about $12.25 billion out of $600 (a trillion dollar budget would give our state something like $20.45 billion). But even then, our state would probably have to pony up at least 50% of the cost. So of a $16 billion on those three projects, we'd take up $8 billion, the feds would take the other 8, leaving us with 4.25 billion for other. That is all fuzzy math, obviously, but you can see how the numbers would pan out. I doubt the feds would take even 50% of these projects--most are already mostly funded, we'd basically be asking for the gold plated options.
So tunnel it? Sure, what the hell. If it creates jobs, improves the urban mesh and makes a more livable city for future generations, why the hell not? After all, we aren't paying for it, the Chinese are!
More...
My hunch is we'll see team Obama pay for both 520 and a tunneled viaduct. I would also expect them to help with Sound Transit.
Each of those projects are about 4-5 billion, so that is about $16 billion (always bump up a billion) on the table. Rumors are the Obama folk are looking at 600->800 billion in spending, so if my math is right, at is at most 2.6% of the Obama budget.
The only catch would be if Obama split the money evenly across all state (which I doubt). If he did, a $600 billion dollar budget would mean only $12 billion for us, so that would be the entirety of our states share. However, I'd imagine the budget would be divied up proportional to population, so basically split it proportional to something like electoral votes. We get 11 out of 538 votes, so about 2.1%. Still, that leaves us with about $12.25 billion out of $600 (a trillion dollar budget would give our state something like $20.45 billion). But even then, our state would probably have to pony up at least 50% of the cost. So of a $16 billion on those three projects, we'd take up $8 billion, the feds would take the other 8, leaving us with 4.25 billion for other. That is all fuzzy math, obviously, but you can see how the numbers would pan out. I doubt the feds would take even 50% of these projects--most are already mostly funded, we'd basically be asking for the gold plated options.
So tunnel it? Sure, what the hell. If it creates jobs, improves the urban mesh and makes a more livable city for future generations, why the hell not? After all, we aren't paying for it, the Chinese are!
9
This delay gives space to try to keep the Governor from ordering up another elevated freeway. Her DOT highway devotees, and particularly some big regional businesses whose names start with "M" and "B", are adamant that a surface/transit option doesn't "work", even though the numbers show it does. Seems to me that Nickels and Sims are both on the right side here, trying to defend us against another elevated disaster.
10
Of course it doesn't work. The surface option will replace a world class view from your H2 hummer with street bums who will spray your windshield at every traffic light. A tunnel is liberal plot to keep me from listening to the only unbiased source of news--AM talk radio. You can't get it in a tunnel, which is just what those hippies want.
12
For a group of people who constantly say the Times and PI suck, you sure do get a lot of your news there.
13
Correction: Keep asking the question until you get the CORPORATE WELFARE you want. The cost IS the benefit to these so called 'experts' and 'stakeholders'.
This is a pre-eminent failure of leadership, of the Greater Seattle Chamber of Commerce, the Governor, The Mayor, and the King County Executive - not to mention the Seattle media and legal profession.
I too am a sceptic regarding the surface option having the capacity needed, BUT it works and it is simple. This option does not rule out either a viaduct, Chopp style, regular, or hybrid, nor a deep bore tunnel.
The surface option is the responsible way to PUNT on this decision - the way it's been played is a failure. Grading the decision, given the time, it's maybe a D+.
The only redeeming fact is that it is possible that downtown financing might emerge as Chamber President Tayloe Washburn has suggested.
But, if you consider the fact that Washburn's law firm also structured WAMU his financial credibility is zero.
This decision not only gets an 'F' it gets you pulled out of class and kicked out school with your file getting sent to the police.
Gregoire, Nickels, Sims, don't sell out the future of Washington State to the highest contributor. In giving credibility to the WAMU scammers you have shown yourself to be as corrupt as Blagoyevich.
This is a pre-eminent failure of leadership, of the Greater Seattle Chamber of Commerce, the Governor, The Mayor, and the King County Executive - not to mention the Seattle media and legal profession.
I too am a sceptic regarding the surface option having the capacity needed, BUT it works and it is simple. This option does not rule out either a viaduct, Chopp style, regular, or hybrid, nor a deep bore tunnel.
The surface option is the responsible way to PUNT on this decision - the way it's been played is a failure. Grading the decision, given the time, it's maybe a D+.
The only redeeming fact is that it is possible that downtown financing might emerge as Chamber President Tayloe Washburn has suggested.
But, if you consider the fact that Washburn's law firm also structured WAMU his financial credibility is zero.
This decision not only gets an 'F' it gets you pulled out of class and kicked out school with your file getting sent to the police.
Gregoire, Nickels, Sims, don't sell out the future of Washington State to the highest contributor. In giving credibility to the WAMU scammers you have shown yourself to be as corrupt as Blagoyevich.
14
tjc @1:
I agree that it wouldn't be surprising if the technology has advanced on these tunnels. And I agree with your "but." The extra billions we spend on a waterfront tunnel is billions we can't spend on higher-impact corridors; we don't have a limitless pot of magical money.
The operating phrase here is "if the numbers pencil out." And rest assured, they will find a way to make the numbers pencil out--just like Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld found a way to make the numbers pencil out for that little Iraq adventure, Shinseki's troop level estimates be damned. Here's the telltale sign that something's up. From the Times:
For a tunnel to event be in the same ballpark as the other options is patently ludicrous. It's like telling somebody they can buy a Lexus SUV for the price of a Toyota car.
Seriously, it's better than it was. But I'm not convinced it was the best way to spend BILLIONS of dollars.
I agree that it wouldn't be surprising if the technology has advanced on these tunnels. And I agree with your "but." The extra billions we spend on a waterfront tunnel is billions we can't spend on higher-impact corridors; we don't have a limitless pot of magical money.
The operating phrase here is "if the numbers pencil out." And rest assured, they will find a way to make the numbers pencil out--just like Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld found a way to make the numbers pencil out for that little Iraq adventure, Shinseki's troop level estimates be damned. Here's the telltale sign that something's up. From the Times:
The surface option is estimated to cost $3.3 billion, and the elevated version $3.5 billion.
In November, the state said a deep-bore tunnel could cost as much as $3.5 billion, not including money needed for the work north and south of the existing viaduct or the temporary transit improvements.
Tunnel supporters have said that estimate is too high.
For a tunnel to event be in the same ballpark as the other options is patently ludicrous. It's like telling somebody they can buy a Lexus SUV for the price of a Toyota car.
15
Had Rossi been govenor all this time, the replacement project (whatever it would have been) would be about 2 years ahead of schedule!
16
Tim Ceis:
Consensus? Among whom? If there's anything we've learned about the politics of the viaduct, it's that of all three major options out there, a tunnel is the least popular. The only significant support that there's been for a tunnel has been among Nickels and Ceis's small circle of downtown developer contributors, who have always wanted a tunnel, but not badly enough that they themselves would actually pay for it.
And how can you have a combination of surface and tunnel? It's either one or the other. It's like claiming you can be a little bit pregnant. Oh, but Ceis doesn't use that language because he's a fool; he uses that language because he takes us for fools.
It's time to plead for Peter Steinbrueck to run for mayor.
"There's definitely been a consensus coming around the idea of a combination of surface and deep-bore-tunnel options that meet most of the people's interest in the viaduct issue," Ceis said. "We're taking that input seriously and doing the work necessary to see if it can work."
Consensus? Among whom? If there's anything we've learned about the politics of the viaduct, it's that of all three major options out there, a tunnel is the least popular. The only significant support that there's been for a tunnel has been among Nickels and Ceis's small circle of downtown developer contributors, who have always wanted a tunnel, but not badly enough that they themselves would actually pay for it.
And how can you have a combination of surface and tunnel? It's either one or the other. It's like claiming you can be a little bit pregnant. Oh, but Ceis doesn't use that language because he's a fool; he uses that language because he takes us for fools.
It's time to plead for Peter Steinbrueck to run for mayor.
18
In Taiwan they built a bullet train pretty quickly. It goes very fast and links many commuters with Taipei. It's elevated.
In Switzerland they built a longish tunnel 6 miles under the Alps pretty quickly --I think it's about 20 miles -- for just a few billion, about the same as the proposed bored tunnel here.
It allowed them to end lots of trucks carrying freight over the high mountain pass linking Germany and Italy.
Other places do seem to solve these problems; we should probably just invite a bunch of Swiss and Taiwanese politicians to come take over and make decisions for us, as we are incapable of (a) deciding things or (b) building things at reasonable cost.
In Switzerland they built a longish tunnel 6 miles under the Alps pretty quickly --I think it's about 20 miles -- for just a few billion, about the same as the proposed bored tunnel here.
It allowed them to end lots of trucks carrying freight over the high mountain pass linking Germany and Italy.
Other places do seem to solve these problems; we should probably just invite a bunch of Swiss and Taiwanese politicians to come take over and make decisions for us, as we are incapable of (a) deciding things or (b) building things at reasonable cost.
19
Actually, we've been studying this since WSDOT first proposed replacing the AWV with a public-private toll tunnel in the early/mid 1990's (along with the Tacoma Narrows Bridge) and State Senator Mike Heavey killed the project in the legislature.
@16,
I think if you put it to a vote (and there's a reason the City Council didn't), "Surface/Transit" would probably do about as badly citywide as a tunnel, but I think we can probably agree that there isn't majority support for any of the three options.
Punt!
@16,
I think if you put it to a vote (and there's a reason the City Council didn't), "Surface/Transit" would probably do about as badly citywide as a tunnel, but I think we can probably agree that there isn't majority support for any of the three options.
Punt!
20
Fortunately, we didn't build the monorail for $2.2 billion -- a "surface option" for $3 billion or a tunnel at $4-5 billion are wiser choices.
21
The additional cost of the tunnel would be offset by the savings of not having to plow and salt that road. You're all welcome.
22
Cressona - if you want to go to town you go on the surface - if you want to go by town you go in the tunnel.
My bet is that Obama's WPA won't be doing Big Digs but rather will back economical projects. He wants to fix the infrastructure not build vanity projects. He wants to make the USA work not provide retirement villages for the wealthy by the shore.
The one thing the deep bore has going for it is that it is backed by the loony creationist Cascadia/Discovery group and we all know how much Obama likes loony religious types.
My bet is that Obama's WPA won't be doing Big Digs but rather will back economical projects. He wants to fix the infrastructure not build vanity projects. He wants to make the USA work not provide retirement villages for the wealthy by the shore.
The one thing the deep bore has going for it is that it is backed by the loony creationist Cascadia/Discovery group and we all know how much Obama likes loony religious types.
23
they deliberately chose an unworkable surface solution. with the viaduct gone, alaskan way (currently 4 lanes wide) will be able to add another 4 lanes. don't forget there's a trolley right of way & a bike/ped lane already there.
therefore:
2 lanes general traffic each direction.
1 lane transit/freight each direction.
1 lane for the streetcar.
1/2 lane each direction for bicycles.
freight pullouts for deliveries.
this isn't fucking rocket science.
therefore:
2 lanes general traffic each direction.
1 lane transit/freight each direction.
1 lane for the streetcar.
1/2 lane each direction for bicycles.
freight pullouts for deliveries.
this isn't fucking rocket science.
24
Seems like only a couple of years ago, the price tag for a new viaduct was $2.8 billion.
Oh. Wait. It was only a couple of years ago.
Seattle isn't a world-class city. It's a world-class joke.
Oh. Wait. It was only a couple of years ago.
Seattle isn't a world-class city. It's a world-class joke.
25
@23, there are only four lanes, and room for four lanes, in the Battery Street Tunnel and the approach to it. The surface option doesn't propose to replace or expand that tunnel.
The complaint about the viaduct is the separation of downtown from the waterfront for pedestrian traffic (which there is a lot of) and it is an audible and visual assault. The surface solution, especially expanded to eight lanes is just as much a separator on the horizontal plane as the viaduct is vertically and will be just as noisy and horrible to look at.
The complaint about the viaduct is the separation of downtown from the waterfront for pedestrian traffic (which there is a lot of) and it is an audible and visual assault. The surface solution, especially expanded to eight lanes is just as much a separator on the horizontal plane as the viaduct is vertically and will be just as noisy and horrible to look at.
26
About the only way the viaduct is ever going to get replaced is when an earthquake takes it down. Until then it will be as it is, and the politicians will continue talking, having meetings, making decisions, changing decisions, and spending money on nothing. Oh, and go tunnel! Some things are worth the money.
27
How about Free Wifi for the entire city, Free Healthcare for a year for all that need it. More food and Shelter for the homeless instead. Make the viaduct into a bike and walking path, with an outdoor market for street vendors. 1 billion dollars plus for a tunnel is rediculous!
28
I'd rather see a beautiful Elliot Bay Bridge from Myrtle Edwards to Duwamish Head. It would knit W. Seattle and the NW Seattle together, and be great for industry.
30
Mr. X @19:
Mr. X, I don't deny that--when we had that advisory vote back in early 2007--if there had been a surface route choice, it would have fared worse than the viaduct choice. I think it would have fared better than the tunnel option's dismal showing, but who knows? Since then, however, I think the surface route has gained a lot of support, especially among the anti-new-viaduct crowd. That's what makes this recent tunnel revival so incongruous.
And notice how tunnel supporters keep giving new names to the tunnel option. "Hybrid." "Deep-bore." And with the new names and allegedly new technologies comes license to throw out all the old political failures and enormous price tags.
I think if you put it to a vote (and there's a reason the City Council didn't), "Surface/Transit" would probably do about as badly citywide as a tunnel, but I think we can probably agree that there isn't majority support for any of the three options.
Mr. X, I don't deny that--when we had that advisory vote back in early 2007--if there had been a surface route choice, it would have fared worse than the viaduct choice. I think it would have fared better than the tunnel option's dismal showing, but who knows? Since then, however, I think the surface route has gained a lot of support, especially among the anti-new-viaduct crowd. That's what makes this recent tunnel revival so incongruous.
And notice how tunnel supporters keep giving new names to the tunnel option. "Hybrid." "Deep-bore." And with the new names and allegedly new technologies comes license to throw out all the old political failures and enormous price tags.
31
@7 is correct. There will be Federal money for our projects that wasn't available under Bush.
That has always been the catch on our major transit projects, whether it's tunnels, bridges, or monorails. The State tries to make the numbers work out, and they don't, because Federal funding was either unavailable or insufficient.
That has always been the catch on our major transit projects, whether it's tunnels, bridges, or monorails. The State tries to make the numbers work out, and they don't, because Federal funding was either unavailable or insufficient.
32
@28: Why would you drop a bridge onto the less populated side of the Duwamish River? How does that solve any problem? I agree that a well-placed signature bridge could solve some problems, and could be architecturally spectacular. But it was rejected out-of-hand by the DOT folks.
33
People should stop and think before they start talking so much trash. It looks to me like local politicians are being smart about this. A tunnel is the best option if money is not a back-breaking issue. Why not wait to see if more federal money is available under the new stimulus bill?
34
People are fleeing Seattle in droves.
"Urban professionals" are eyeing those low condo rates in Frisco and saying "I can get a better class of lay there, what I am I doing with these mountain folk"...
"Urban professionals" are eyeing those low condo rates in Frisco and saying "I can get a better class of lay there, what I am I doing with these mountain folk"...
35
Let me just say one thing.
Matching.
Federal.
Grants.
All the tunnel options DO NOT QUALIFY for the double match in the Rebuilding America plan by Obama - whereas both the Surface Plus Transit and Elevated Viaduct rebuild do.
Therefore, if faced between a double match (Surface/Elevated) and a single match (TunnelForRichJerks) it's a NO-BRAINER.
Matching.
Federal.
Grants.
All the tunnel options DO NOT QUALIFY for the double match in the Rebuilding America plan by Obama - whereas both the Surface Plus Transit and Elevated Viaduct rebuild do.
Therefore, if faced between a double match (Surface/Elevated) and a single match (TunnelForRichJerks) it's a NO-BRAINER.
37
A tunnel is the best option for opening up the waterfront and keeping traffic moving. Want proof? Take a look at the transit tunnel we already have. I'm talking about the railroad tunnel that starts in Pioneer Sq. and comes out at Myrtle Edwards park. It runs right underneath downtown and was built almost 100 years ago. That tunnel moves people and freight and as far as I know, it has never shut down for an earthquake. And unlike the viaduct, it's quiet. I'll bet most people don't even know it's there.
39
@37 - great, get Paul Allen or Bill Gates to pony up 150 percent of the money for it, and to purchase the carbon tax global warming credits for the energy usage for a tunnel and you can have it.
Otherwise ... NO.
Otherwise ... NO.
41
And, we'll keep studying the options until the damn thing falls down or someone finds the money to pay for it.
Dear Obama,
Please send money soon.
Love,
Chris, Greg and Ron
P.S. XOXO (apply liberally to butt cheeks)
Dear Obama,
Please send money soon.
Love,
Chris, Greg and Ron
P.S. XOXO (apply liberally to butt cheeks)
42
@7 31
What makes anyone think the new administration will be eager to pour Federal Billion$ into Seattle?
Oh wait, I remember; it's because Seattle Gays stuck with me loyally when there was heat over Warren!
Screw You.
You filthy animals.
What makes anyone think the new administration will be eager to pour Federal Billion$ into Seattle?
Oh wait, I remember; it's because Seattle Gays stuck with me loyally when there was heat over Warren!
Screw You.
You filthy animals.
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