Slog
News & ArtsTuesday, December 30, 2008
City Woonerful!
Posted by Erica C. Barnett on Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 11:45 AM
The Daily Journal of Commerce reports that the development proposed at Greenwood Ave. N. and N. 85th Street in Greenwood will be centered on a "woonerf," which the DJC describes as "a street designed to slow cars and give pedestrians precedence over vehicles." (The P-I described it as a "private road," which falsely implies exclusivity and limited access; this street, if done right, will actually be accessible to far more people than one reserved for cars.)
And woonerfs as implemented in the Netherlands and Finland go much further. There, pedestrians have legal priority over drivers, who are limited to a speed limit of "walking pace." Counterintuitive as that may seem, woonerfs work. When people have priority over cars, drivers behave more sensibly—a phenomenon called "shared space," which I've written about over here.
Plans for the first phase of the development also include 12,000 square feet of retail, 46 apartments, and a pervious 161-space parking lot that will allow rainwater to drain into the ground rather than running off.
1
Note that this woonerf would be a new road a half block north of NW 85th that would run west from Greenwood Ave to 1st Ave NW. The new development doesn't impact any of the existing buildings at the intersection of 85th and Greenwood.
It's a good--but still flawed--design, and would not be nearly as revolutionary as retrofitting parts of 85th or Greenwood as woonerfs.
It's a good--but still flawed--design, and would not be nearly as revolutionary as retrofitting parts of 85th or Greenwood as woonerfs.
2
It's a fine idea in theory, but it'll never catch on unless they call it something, anything, besides 'woonerf'.
3
What? You mean I'll have to be satisfied with running pedestrians over at only 20 MPH instead of 35? Bummer. 35 works so much better for separating extremities from the torso.
5
Hopefully people check the comments to read #1 since you didn't include this vital information in your o.p.
6
@1, you want to retrofit two of the most important arterials in the city as woonerfs. Good luck with that.
As implemented in Greenwood, the correct translation of "woonerf" is "driveway" or "parking lot", but if they called it that they wouldn't get all those delicious green brownie points. This isn't really a whole lot different than all those seventies apartments in the burbs with long snaking parking lot access to the various unit clusters. The fanciful illustration, with its lively shops'n'galleries pipe dream, doesn't really reflect reality.
Also, are you sure you mean "Netherlands and Finland"? Are you sure it isn't Flanders?
Even where there are real woonerfs or "home zones" the effectiveness is pretty doubtful. In actual reality, no one wants to "share space" with a car, even at 7 MPH. If you are looking for lively civic spaces, whether in Holland, the UK, or Germany, you won't find them in these artificial arrangements, but in the classic street zones with parking and mixed (but segregated) use.
The closest thing to a real woonerf in Seattle is probably Pike Place, the street that idiot drivers try to drive down all day long, only to discover that they're going to spend the next half-hour there, inching forward. But that's de facto; there's still a proper division between street, sidewalk, building. And there's stuff on both sides. Piper Village isn't going to look much like that.
As implemented in Greenwood, the correct translation of "woonerf" is "driveway" or "parking lot", but if they called it that they wouldn't get all those delicious green brownie points. This isn't really a whole lot different than all those seventies apartments in the burbs with long snaking parking lot access to the various unit clusters. The fanciful illustration, with its lively shops'n'galleries pipe dream, doesn't really reflect reality.
Also, are you sure you mean "Netherlands and Finland"? Are you sure it isn't Flanders?
Even where there are real woonerfs or "home zones" the effectiveness is pretty doubtful. In actual reality, no one wants to "share space" with a car, even at 7 MPH. If you are looking for lively civic spaces, whether in Holland, the UK, or Germany, you won't find them in these artificial arrangements, but in the classic street zones with parking and mixed (but segregated) use.
The closest thing to a real woonerf in Seattle is probably Pike Place, the street that idiot drivers try to drive down all day long, only to discover that they're going to spend the next half-hour there, inching forward. But that's de facto; there's still a proper division between street, sidewalk, building. And there's stuff on both sides. Piper Village isn't going to look much like that.
7
Perhaps "mews" is the word?
Off topic: the Blago appointee is Roland Burris 3x comptroller elected statewide and 1x attorney general of Illinois, they are on TV right now, and guess who's vouching for Burris right now on TV -- Bobby Rush.
(The guy Obama tried to oust from Congress, and failed.)
That's Chicago. The Rush faction sees a way to swoop in and make a soft deal with a weakened Blago.n Rush is the man.
It's not a huge dish, but it's nice and cold.
Off topic: the Blago appointee is Roland Burris 3x comptroller elected statewide and 1x attorney general of Illinois, they are on TV right now, and guess who's vouching for Burris right now on TV -- Bobby Rush.
(The guy Obama tried to oust from Congress, and failed.)
That's Chicago. The Rush faction sees a way to swoop in and make a soft deal with a weakened Blago.n Rush is the man.
It's not a huge dish, but it's nice and cold.
8
It's all fairly moot as this lane will be continually backed up with cars trying to turn onto Greenwood (a—as fnarf pointed out—major arterial these days) less than a block from the 85th traffic signal. That intersection's miserably backed up in general. What's the word for a combination street/parking lot? I'll happily carry my groceries past those cars and their annoyed occupants and laugh as I hold them up longer crossing Greenwood at the Crosswalk.
9
@8 Your comment is right on.
The key for successful "woonerfs" or so-called "shared space zones" is density. As you point out, the closest Seattle has to one is Pike Place, where commercial space that spills out onto the sidewalk encourages the ample foot-traffic into the street, effectively slowing traffic and encouraging a relatively safe interplay of peds and and cars. The two requirements are (1) dense retail space at the sidewalk, and (2) a critical mass of peds.
Creating these artificial spaces in places like Greenwood doesn't completely recreate the classic street zones of Europe, and you're right, it is just a fancy driveway. However, it does slowly move us towards densifying our built environment, and hopefully creates an urban appetite for something other than the sprawling auto-dependent blight that afflicts our cities.
The key for successful "woonerfs" or so-called "shared space zones" is density. As you point out, the closest Seattle has to one is Pike Place, where commercial space that spills out onto the sidewalk encourages the ample foot-traffic into the street, effectively slowing traffic and encouraging a relatively safe interplay of peds and and cars. The two requirements are (1) dense retail space at the sidewalk, and (2) a critical mass of peds.
Creating these artificial spaces in places like Greenwood doesn't completely recreate the classic street zones of Europe, and you're right, it is just a fancy driveway. However, it does slowly move us towards densifying our built environment, and hopefully creates an urban appetite for something other than the sprawling auto-dependent blight that afflicts our cities.
10
@6: Bwwaaahhahahaah yeah, the drivers through the pike place market are an endless source of amusement. During the summer crush of tourists, I spent many lunches laughing at the frustrated drivers trying to get through there. Too funny!
11
The plural is "woonerven." I'm sure no one cares. But I'd love to see oodles of woonerven in Seattle.
13
From the look of the pic the "woonerf" in question looks more like a fancy crosswalk than a pedestrian causeway; hardly very greeny and/or old world European a'tall.
But if this is sets the standard for you, ECB, than you must find University Village to be just eine woonerfin' wunderland!
15
@13, exactly. People who think they can just invent new ways of being "European" end up with U Village. If they're lucky; if they're not, they get "strip mall".
There are actually thousands of "shared spaces" in the Seattle area where cars are required to drive 5 MPH and pedestrians have priority. They're called parking lots, and they surround every mall and line every strip mall. The good folks at Piper Village have just found a way to get "green" credit for theirs.
There are actually thousands of "shared spaces" in the Seattle area where cars are required to drive 5 MPH and pedestrians have priority. They're called parking lots, and they surround every mall and line every strip mall. The good folks at Piper Village have just found a way to get "green" credit for theirs.
16
There's a development very like this one on 100th and 116th in Juanita. Does it magically make cars and pedestrians get along? No.
17
Greg @ 16. You're missing the point. All of this rah rah rah is about motorist identity vs. pedestrian identity. Cars and pedestrians getting along is hardly the concern here.
20
@15 - yeah. and they suck big time.
Do like we do in the U Dist and Fremont and make cars second place whether they want to be or not.
P.S.: Skateboards work great on car hoods.
Do like we do in the U Dist and Fremont and make cars second place whether they want to be or not.
P.S.: Skateboards work great on car hoods.
24
This has already been done in North Seattle @ Linden Place.
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&ge…
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&ge…
25
This is a great concept. The City of Redmond has an Innovative Housing program and this concept would be a good type of project that they might embrace. The Eastside needs this kind of community!
26
In Groningen, the Netherlands, many roads in the altstadt divide walkers from bikers from drivers with different pavers but no physical barriers (curbs etc.). It allows flexibility for bikers and walkers to get around each other, and as Erika has noted, things work themselves out.
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