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News & ArtsMonday, December 29, 2008
Homo Today's Parenting Tips: Don't Make Your Straight Kids Take Virginity Pledges...
Posted by Dan Savage on Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 9:28 AM
...and don't treat your gay kids like shit. AP:
Young gay people whose parents or guardians responded negatively when they revealed their sexual orientation were more likely to attempt suicide, experience severe depression and use drugs than those whose families accepted the news, according to a new study.... [The] study showed that teens who experienced negative feedback were more than eight times as likely to have attempted suicide, nearly six times as vulnerable to severe depression and more than three times at risk of drug use.
The gay haters—Concerned Women for America, Family Research Council, American Family Association, Rick Warren, et al—point to higher rates of suicide, depression, and drug use among gays and lesbians as evidence of the destructiveness of the "gay lifestyle," and as proof that there's something wrong with gay people. The opposite seems to be the case: higher rates of suicide, depression, and drug use is proof that there's something wrong with straight people (or straight parents). Another interesting finding from this study:
More significantly, Ryan said, ongoing work at San Francisco State suggests that parents who take even baby steps to respond with equanimity instead of rejection can dramatically improve a gay youth's mental health outlook.
So parents whose child just came out can reduce their kid's chances for suicide, depression, and drug use simply by refraining from being a total douchebag about it. No need to slap a rainbow sticker on the family car. Just don't be complete assholes, mom & dad. Unless, of course, you happen to agree with the Concerned Women for America and believe it's better to have a suicide in the family than a happy, well-adjusted gay kid.
1
Did anybody see that South Park where Butters is sent to a gay conversion camp to cure him of being bi-curious? And then all the kids in the camp keep committing suicide ("we've got another one in room 222")? Good times.
5
It's insufferable of me to look down my nose at the kind of parents who drive their gay kids to suicide.
I am a bad, bad man. Please don't read my blog.
I am a bad, bad man. Please don't read my blog.
9
I think we're all feeding trolls, people. But I guess if the trolls don't get their breakfast from us, they're likely to go impregnate a teenager, so carry on.
11
Dan is obsessed with sexuality. He's the type of a guy who tells a story and he'll tell you the sexuality of everyone in this story. "I know this guy, he's straight". Get over it Dan, don't you wanna be treated equally?
13
I have a problem with "there's something wrong with straight people (or straight parents)".
I feel like I'm the devil sometimes when I read Slog... shame on me for being straight.
I feel like I'm the devil sometimes when I read Slog... shame on me for being straight.
14
Again, I like how people study this. Out & out rejection of a child by a parent over something so personal & volitile as sexuality will often result in suicide at worst, depression & drug use at best. Wow, how did they ever figure that out?
I just hate that there are those out there that don't understand this.
I just hate that there are those out there that don't understand this.
15
#6,
Agreed, but not a particularly intelligent hack.
Having said that, Dan has actually brought up a serious matter, instead of nattering on about Rick Warren (pointless) or "How the entire rest of the world that doesn't agree with Dan Savage 100 percent RIGHT NOW is a homophobe."
Kids need support, gay or straight. My closest friend in high school came out of the closet while still in high school. Both his parents had passed away, and he was being raised by his older siblings, which actually, ironically, made it somewhat easier.
He had strong support in our community, but not all kids do. It would have been nice if some of the $38 million that the HRC campaign literally pissed away fighting Prop 8 (need I remind you - unsuccessfully?) could have been spent on....
...the ACTUAL members of the gay community who need support, not failure-to-separate-church-and-state gay marriage (when you could have gone for civil unions and we would BE there by now.)
Oh, I forgot. A large part of the actual gay community that needs our support is non-white, and thereby dismissed or ignored by Dan Savage.
I'm sorry, but like everyone else, myself included, there are aspects of the largely white gay leadership that could really use some self-criticism. But especially after they lose, while spending $38 million of peoples' hard-earned money.
Agreed, but not a particularly intelligent hack.
Having said that, Dan has actually brought up a serious matter, instead of nattering on about Rick Warren (pointless) or "How the entire rest of the world that doesn't agree with Dan Savage 100 percent RIGHT NOW is a homophobe."
Kids need support, gay or straight. My closest friend in high school came out of the closet while still in high school. Both his parents had passed away, and he was being raised by his older siblings, which actually, ironically, made it somewhat easier.
He had strong support in our community, but not all kids do. It would have been nice if some of the $38 million that the HRC campaign literally pissed away fighting Prop 8 (need I remind you - unsuccessfully?) could have been spent on....
...the ACTUAL members of the gay community who need support, not failure-to-separate-church-and-state gay marriage (when you could have gone for civil unions and we would BE there by now.)
Oh, I forgot. A large part of the actual gay community that needs our support is non-white, and thereby dismissed or ignored by Dan Savage.
I'm sorry, but like everyone else, myself included, there are aspects of the largely white gay leadership that could really use some self-criticism. But especially after they lose, while spending $38 million of peoples' hard-earned money.
16
It's a little freaky to contemplate, but to a lot of severe Xtians suicide is a logical result of kids tormenting themselves by refusing to turn their troublesome sexuality over to Gawd. It makes perfect sense to them that such children should wickedly kill themselves if they refuse Jesus long enough, and is easily blamed on the forces that keep kids from surrendering, the same forces that twist them into thinking they are gay.
Chilling, but there ya go.
Chilling, but there ya go.
17
God, that would be awesome if Dan Savage actually did have his own blog. If he did I never would have read this sentence:
The opposite seems to be the case: higher rates of suicide, depression, and drug use is proof that there's something wrong with straight people (or straight parents).
18
@13 he was pointing out that there is something wrong with straight parents not straight people in general. I am willing to bet by your assholiness that you are not a straight parent so don't worry, you are in the clear.
19
@15, I've got to know, why do you bother reading a blog, or posts on a blog written by someone whom you consider not particularly intelligent? What does that say about you, that you can't just skip over them? Why do you find Dan so compelling?
20
Dan, you miss the connection...
Shitty parents are more prone to fail in raising their kids, who thus turn out gay more often, and also kill themselves more often, because their parents are shitty.
It's the Circle of Queer Life.
Elton wrote a song about it.
Shitty parents are more prone to fail in raising their kids, who thus turn out gay more often, and also kill themselves more often, because their parents are shitty.
It's the Circle of Queer Life.
Elton wrote a song about it.
23
Never mind the fact that he took a shitty, unsound argument out of the mouth of Rick Warren, then made the exact same shitty, unsound argument just to take a cheap shot at straight parents.
24
#19,
That's a good question, thanks for asking it.
I would answer that with a question:
What does it say about Dan Savage that he doesn't just skip over things he disagrees with?
Maybe... because he sees people with influence writing, saying and doing things he disagrees with.
As a liberal with a lot more in common with Savage's politics, I see a value in voicing my opposition to what I think is his confrontational and ultimately counterproductive methods.
I also think that there is an inherent racism in gay culture that should be examined, and Dan's criticism of the AA community post-Prop 8 was not well-considered.
What are your thoughts on this?
That's a good question, thanks for asking it.
I would answer that with a question:
What does it say about Dan Savage that he doesn't just skip over things he disagrees with?
Maybe... because he sees people with influence writing, saying and doing things he disagrees with.
As a liberal with a lot more in common with Savage's politics, I see a value in voicing my opposition to what I think is his confrontational and ultimately counterproductive methods.
I also think that there is an inherent racism in gay culture that should be examined, and Dan's criticism of the AA community post-Prop 8 was not well-considered.
What are your thoughts on this?
26
And it's our duty as citizens to respond to, "um", "such things."
Unless you think that non-white, non-male people should not have the right to dissent?
I note that, despite offering two "ums" you neglected to address to any of the points I suggested in the first post that you responded to.
Do you find a total absence of racism in gay culture?
Is it possible that the push to make gay marriage THE gay rights issue was in effort to address the concerns not of the most needy gay people, but of the upper-middle-class white people who determine which direction gay rights should move?
Do you not have concerns about the comments Dan Savage made about the AA community post-Prop 8?
Unless you think that non-white, non-male people should not have the right to dissent?
I note that, despite offering two "ums" you neglected to address to any of the points I suggested in the first post that you responded to.
Do you find a total absence of racism in gay culture?
Is it possible that the push to make gay marriage THE gay rights issue was in effort to address the concerns not of the most needy gay people, but of the upper-middle-class white people who determine which direction gay rights should move?
Do you not have concerns about the comments Dan Savage made about the AA community post-Prop 8?
28
Haterosexuals causing trouble, that's new! Not.
feh, you don't know what you are talking about. You want to enforce haterosexual notions onto gay people to further marginalize them. Fact: gay people are more likely to live near people of different ethnicities than haterosexuals. Fact: gay people are more likely to be in love with a person of a different race than haterosexuals. Fact: gay people are more likely to be in love with a person from a different country than haterosexuals. Fact: gay couples are more likely to adopt children of a different race or with a disability than haterosexuals. I could go on and on but all those facts counter your (haterosexual derived and ignorant) beliefs about gay people.
feh, you don't know what you are talking about. You want to enforce haterosexual notions onto gay people to further marginalize them. Fact: gay people are more likely to live near people of different ethnicities than haterosexuals. Fact: gay people are more likely to be in love with a person of a different race than haterosexuals. Fact: gay people are more likely to be in love with a person from a different country than haterosexuals. Fact: gay couples are more likely to adopt children of a different race or with a disability than haterosexuals. I could go on and on but all those facts counter your (haterosexual derived and ignorant) beliefs about gay people.
29
True,
As someone who voted no on 8, and who will continue to support marriage equality but would prefer for everyone's progress that this is done through civil unions, I have to say I am glad that 99% of gay people have more common sense and more of a happy outlook on life than to use the term "haterosexuals." I note that you have managed to squeeze that term into your post no less than seven times?
I would like to know what Dan Savage thinks of that, or is he afraid to criticize his own rabid (and somewhat irrational) fans?
It's not a very effective way to get your point across.
I also note that you've failed to provide any source for your stated facts. The term "likely" in all of your stated facts does not actually mean anything.
Do they adopt in children of a different race or with a disability, or are they simply more "likely" to? Also: does being "in love with a person of a different race" mean anything? A lot of guys in the early '60's would have told you that they were "in love" with Diana Ross - they still wouldn't cross the cultural line to marry her, or even a Harvard-educated, equally attractive black woman with a large trust fund.
What do your facts mean when they are phrased so airily?
As someone who voted no on 8, and who will continue to support marriage equality but would prefer for everyone's progress that this is done through civil unions, I have to say I am glad that 99% of gay people have more common sense and more of a happy outlook on life than to use the term "haterosexuals." I note that you have managed to squeeze that term into your post no less than seven times?
I would like to know what Dan Savage thinks of that, or is he afraid to criticize his own rabid (and somewhat irrational) fans?
It's not a very effective way to get your point across.
I also note that you've failed to provide any source for your stated facts. The term "likely" in all of your stated facts does not actually mean anything.
Do they adopt in children of a different race or with a disability, or are they simply more "likely" to? Also: does being "in love with a person of a different race" mean anything? A lot of guys in the early '60's would have told you that they were "in love" with Diana Ross - they still wouldn't cross the cultural line to marry her, or even a Harvard-educated, equally attractive black woman with a large trust fund.
What do your facts mean when they are phrased so airily?
30
@26, Wow! It's your duty? You have every right to respond, but it just amazes me how Dan is able to captivate people, that they feel it is their duty to respond to him. They call him names, they insult him, but they keep coming back day after day.
Racism isn't a gay thing, no matter how much you want to try it make it so. There is no total absence of racism in ANY culture. Gay people are no more racist than anyone else. (Funny, you making blanket statements about a group of people, and while complaining about racism.)
In my circle of friends, there are people from all walks of life.
Who do you consider the "most needy gay people"? Are not middle class homosexuals worthy?
Please point out Dan's posts about prop 8, and African Americans with which you have trouble. Please tell me specifically where you take issue?
Racism isn't a gay thing, no matter how much you want to try it make it so. There is no total absence of racism in ANY culture. Gay people are no more racist than anyone else. (Funny, you making blanket statements about a group of people, and while complaining about racism.)
In my circle of friends, there are people from all walks of life.
Who do you consider the "most needy gay people"? Are not middle class homosexuals worthy?
Please point out Dan's posts about prop 8, and African Americans with which you have trouble. Please tell me specifically where you take issue?
31
#30,
You're surprised that people want to speak truth to power?
Dan Savage has installed himself in the bully pulpit. We have the right and the duty as citizens to respond. That duty is reinforced for liberals, who voted for marriage equality, but think (and now have proof) that the gay leadership and its bully-pulpit men (e.g. Savage) used counterproductive methods and FAILED.
Yes, I think that middle class homosexuals are worthy, but they have hijacked the gay rights movement and made it, in the last ten years, almost entirely focused on gay marriage, when they were more URGENT (urgent!) issues to address, and when gay marriage was clearly not the most efficient route to marriage equality. (Civil unions anyone?)
I'm glad you have people from all walks of life in your circle of friends. I have gay friends who are not white, and have witnessed how they have been treated not just by white gay men, but by the largely white leadership of the gay rights movement, which - notably and fairly - is being criticized for utterly failing to listen to non-white gays who warned "we need outreach in our communities to fight Prop 8."
I was offended by the snarkiness of the comments Dan made about African American men on television (I've forgotten which show he appeared on, but can look it up.) It was counterproductive to our SHARED goals. Hello? We as liberals, and many of us non-white, supported gay marriage this election, but we also have the right and the duty as liberals to try to steer the movement and its bully-pulpit-ers in a productive direction.
Why does it so upset you that people criticize Dan Savage? Are you unwilling to admit the possibility that he is not right 100% of the time, or that his methods (note: methods) MAY ACTUALLY BE WORKING AGAINST THE LARGER CAUSE OF GAY RIGHTS?
Did you, uh, notice that Prop 8 passed? Why? Is it all the fault of the "fundies?" Or maybe the strategy of pushing gay marriage as THE gay rights issue was deeply flawed in the first place? Or was it too easy to alienate people who voice mild concerns about the strategy?
Let's face it - condemning anyone who disagrees with the likes of Dan did not work this election.
Shouldn't you be asking yourself why you and your strategy failed?
And please correct yourself - for me to say that there is racism within the gay community is not to make a blanket statement about a group of people, or to say that racism doesn't exist within other groups. There are many non-white people within the LGBT community who have written on this subject.
Please bear in mind that your denial of the problem does not fix the problem.
More...
You're surprised that people want to speak truth to power?
Dan Savage has installed himself in the bully pulpit. We have the right and the duty as citizens to respond. That duty is reinforced for liberals, who voted for marriage equality, but think (and now have proof) that the gay leadership and its bully-pulpit men (e.g. Savage) used counterproductive methods and FAILED.
Yes, I think that middle class homosexuals are worthy, but they have hijacked the gay rights movement and made it, in the last ten years, almost entirely focused on gay marriage, when they were more URGENT (urgent!) issues to address, and when gay marriage was clearly not the most efficient route to marriage equality. (Civil unions anyone?)
I'm glad you have people from all walks of life in your circle of friends. I have gay friends who are not white, and have witnessed how they have been treated not just by white gay men, but by the largely white leadership of the gay rights movement, which - notably and fairly - is being criticized for utterly failing to listen to non-white gays who warned "we need outreach in our communities to fight Prop 8."
I was offended by the snarkiness of the comments Dan made about African American men on television (I've forgotten which show he appeared on, but can look it up.) It was counterproductive to our SHARED goals. Hello? We as liberals, and many of us non-white, supported gay marriage this election, but we also have the right and the duty as liberals to try to steer the movement and its bully-pulpit-ers in a productive direction.
Why does it so upset you that people criticize Dan Savage? Are you unwilling to admit the possibility that he is not right 100% of the time, or that his methods (note: methods) MAY ACTUALLY BE WORKING AGAINST THE LARGER CAUSE OF GAY RIGHTS?
Did you, uh, notice that Prop 8 passed? Why? Is it all the fault of the "fundies?" Or maybe the strategy of pushing gay marriage as THE gay rights issue was deeply flawed in the first place? Or was it too easy to alienate people who voice mild concerns about the strategy?
Let's face it - condemning anyone who disagrees with the likes of Dan did not work this election.
Shouldn't you be asking yourself why you and your strategy failed?
And please correct yourself - for me to say that there is racism within the gay community is not to make a blanket statement about a group of people, or to say that racism doesn't exist within other groups. There are many non-white people within the LGBT community who have written on this subject.
Please bear in mind that your denial of the problem does not fix the problem.
32
Racism in the LGBT community
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Examples:
According to a study conducted in 2008, racism against gay Asian/Pacific Islander men leads to socially and contextually prescribed sexual roles for that may also contribute to the practice of unsafe sex among this group. [1]
According to a survey conducted of LGBT African-Americans in nine U.S. cities in 2000, a third of respondents reported negative experiences in predominantly white LGBT organizations and with white LGBT persons in bars and clubs.[2]
In 2005, Les Natali, the owner of a gay bar named Badlands located in San Francisco, was criticized by the city's Human Rights Commission who determine that 13 instances of racial discrimination by the staff occurred. Examples include refusal for entry by African-Americans, white patrons being served first even though African-Americans were first in line among others.[3]
In 2006, there were reports of some verbal attacks on gay Latinos by gay whites in The Castro district of San Francisco. John Mendoza, a protest organizer against racism in the Castro, said he was told by a gay white male to "go back to Mexico, you fucking wetback, where you belong".[4]"
Rob - no one is saying that the LGBT community is more or less racist than any other group. But denial of a problem does not make it go away. And the reality is that the LGBT community's racism and failure to conduct outreach did, in fact, come back to bite you on Prop 8. If you had only listened to us, who were supporting you, but had advice on how to win. But nooooo.... you can't criticize Dan or the largely white gay leadership.
Well, now that you've pissed $38 million down the drain, I think it's fair to criticize Dan and the largely white gay leadership.
Stop blaming others - figure out a strategy that works.
Then stop alienating your supporters enough so that they'll get the non-supporters on board for you.
Sound fair?
Or do you just have this weird need to protect Dan? He's a big boy, he can handle rational criticism.
More importantly, the movement needs self-criticism if it is going to reach its goals.
More...
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Examples:
According to a study conducted in 2008, racism against gay Asian/Pacific Islander men leads to socially and contextually prescribed sexual roles for that may also contribute to the practice of unsafe sex among this group. [1]
According to a survey conducted of LGBT African-Americans in nine U.S. cities in 2000, a third of respondents reported negative experiences in predominantly white LGBT organizations and with white LGBT persons in bars and clubs.[2]
In 2005, Les Natali, the owner of a gay bar named Badlands located in San Francisco, was criticized by the city's Human Rights Commission who determine that 13 instances of racial discrimination by the staff occurred. Examples include refusal for entry by African-Americans, white patrons being served first even though African-Americans were first in line among others.[3]
In 2006, there were reports of some verbal attacks on gay Latinos by gay whites in The Castro district of San Francisco. John Mendoza, a protest organizer against racism in the Castro, said he was told by a gay white male to "go back to Mexico, you fucking wetback, where you belong".[4]"
Rob - no one is saying that the LGBT community is more or less racist than any other group. But denial of a problem does not make it go away. And the reality is that the LGBT community's racism and failure to conduct outreach did, in fact, come back to bite you on Prop 8. If you had only listened to us, who were supporting you, but had advice on how to win. But nooooo.... you can't criticize Dan or the largely white gay leadership.
Well, now that you've pissed $38 million down the drain, I think it's fair to criticize Dan and the largely white gay leadership.
Stop blaming others - figure out a strategy that works.
Then stop alienating your supporters enough so that they'll get the non-supporters on board for you.
Sound fair?
Or do you just have this weird need to protect Dan? He's a big boy, he can handle rational criticism.
More importantly, the movement needs self-criticism if it is going to reach its goals.
33
@31, you have yet to prove you're speaking truth to anything.
Dan Savage is a columnist, and blog contributor to the Stranger. He was hired. He didn't install himself.
Again amazed you feel it's your duty to rant against him.
What other issues are more URGENT!?
Specifically how have your not white gay friends (your terms, not mine) been treated by white gay men? Are you suggesting that "not white" gay people don't have and interest in marriage?
Please give me some specifics about what Dan said that offended you. If you saw it on TV, it's bound to be on the internet somewhere. How can I make a judgment about his statements, if you can't provide them?
If CNN, or any other news organization asks him to appear, why shouldn't he? It not like he's running onto the set unannounced.
It doesn't upset me that anyone criticizes Dan. He's a big boy, and has shown he can take it. Could you point out where I ever said he was 100% right? Please stop putting words in my mouth. (Could it be you're putting words in Dan's mouth as well?) I have said I find it amazing that he can captivate people like you, that you feel it's your duty to keep coming back. No wonder the Stranger keeps him on board.
Yes, I did notice that prop 8 passed, and yes it was the due mainly to the huge amounts of money spent by the groups who were against prop 8. They won...for now.
Where did I condemn anyone? Again you imagine that I said something, when I did not.
You are making blanket statements about gay people. Is there prejudice in the gay community? Yes. Is there prejudice in the black community? Yes. Is there prejudice in the Asian community? Yes. Is racism a gay, black, or Asian thing, NO. There is prejudice and racism in EVERY culture, but for some reason you want to define the gay community with it. You make prejudice statements while complaining about prejudice.
When you think of ironic denial, look in the mirror.
More...
Dan Savage is a columnist, and blog contributor to the Stranger. He was hired. He didn't install himself.
Again amazed you feel it's your duty to rant against him.
What other issues are more URGENT!?
Specifically how have your not white gay friends (your terms, not mine) been treated by white gay men? Are you suggesting that "not white" gay people don't have and interest in marriage?
Please give me some specifics about what Dan said that offended you. If you saw it on TV, it's bound to be on the internet somewhere. How can I make a judgment about his statements, if you can't provide them?
If CNN, or any other news organization asks him to appear, why shouldn't he? It not like he's running onto the set unannounced.
It doesn't upset me that anyone criticizes Dan. He's a big boy, and has shown he can take it. Could you point out where I ever said he was 100% right? Please stop putting words in my mouth. (Could it be you're putting words in Dan's mouth as well?) I have said I find it amazing that he can captivate people like you, that you feel it's your duty to keep coming back. No wonder the Stranger keeps him on board.
Yes, I did notice that prop 8 passed, and yes it was the due mainly to the huge amounts of money spent by the groups who were against prop 8. They won...for now.
Where did I condemn anyone? Again you imagine that I said something, when I did not.
You are making blanket statements about gay people. Is there prejudice in the gay community? Yes. Is there prejudice in the black community? Yes. Is there prejudice in the Asian community? Yes. Is racism a gay, black, or Asian thing, NO. There is prejudice and racism in EVERY culture, but for some reason you want to define the gay community with it. You make prejudice statements while complaining about prejudice.
When you think of ironic denial, look in the mirror.
34
@32, um, you do know that anyone can write and edit wikipedia entries. For all I know, you, or someone from the American Family Association wrote what you cut and pasted. Lets find some credible sources please.
35
Rob,
Dan Savage is the Sarah Palin of the LGBT community.
He energizes the base.
But he also energizes the opposition, and those of us in the middle, who would like a more conciliatory outreach so that we can achieve what people like you insisted was THE civil rights issue of the moment. (Which many of us disagree with, but you have our support on civil unions, and this year you had my support to fight Prop 8.)
That Sarah Palin "energizes the base" without reaching out to the opposition is why McCain lost, and that same effort to "energize the base" that Dan advocates is why Prop 8 won.
Think. About. It. You didn't do any outreach to the voters whose support you needed. Then you insulted people whose support you failed to garner.
Not very productive. Which is why you lost.
You are in deep denial about the money - you and the pro Prop 8 crowd spent an equal amount of money.
So your argument that it was the money is completely invalid.
It was your failed leadership, your failed Dan Savages, and your failed strategy.
Some people who, when they fail, look inward, and seek answers. Others just blame outside forces.
You won't win if you keep blaming others, and especially if you keep attacking people who supported your needs this past election. (Doh.)
Wise up, brother, and reach out. It's not too late.
Dan Savage is the Sarah Palin of the LGBT community.
He energizes the base.
But he also energizes the opposition, and those of us in the middle, who would like a more conciliatory outreach so that we can achieve what people like you insisted was THE civil rights issue of the moment. (Which many of us disagree with, but you have our support on civil unions, and this year you had my support to fight Prop 8.)
That Sarah Palin "energizes the base" without reaching out to the opposition is why McCain lost, and that same effort to "energize the base" that Dan advocates is why Prop 8 won.
Think. About. It. You didn't do any outreach to the voters whose support you needed. Then you insulted people whose support you failed to garner.
Not very productive. Which is why you lost.
You are in deep denial about the money - you and the pro Prop 8 crowd spent an equal amount of money.
So your argument that it was the money is completely invalid.
It was your failed leadership, your failed Dan Savages, and your failed strategy.
Some people who, when they fail, look inward, and seek answers. Others just blame outside forces.
You won't win if you keep blaming others, and especially if you keep attacking people who supported your needs this past election. (Doh.)
Wise up, brother, and reach out. It's not too late.
36
#34,
I can't believe you're in denial about racisim within the gay community. Read any James Baldwin? Ever? Any Allan Berube?
How about this?
http://gaycitynews.com/site/index.cfm?ne…
"In one of the more compelling presentations by the panelists, David Noh spoke on the racism many Asian men suffer within the gay community. Noh, a writer and journalist, with a regular column in the New York Blade, detailed findings from research he conducted on the Internet, in which blatantly racist comments are targeted at gay men of Asian and Pacific Islands descent. “New to L.A. and wanna know where I can go clubbing without being harassed by tons of creepy Asians… I am into white/Latin/Mideast men, i.e. eyelids and real noses. Plz. advise,” was one of the examples to which Noh pointed."
Or, Rob, how about this:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/81067…
or:
http://connection.ebscohost.com/content/…
just go to google scholar or pub med and type in a search for racism within the LGBT community.
As I've stated before, the LGBT community isn't that different in its racism, but to deny there's a problem is to deny literally decades of non-white gays saying, "hey, there's a problem."
Denial, it's not working for you.
I can't believe you're in denial about racisim within the gay community. Read any James Baldwin? Ever? Any Allan Berube?
How about this?
http://gaycitynews.com/site/index.cfm?ne…
"In one of the more compelling presentations by the panelists, David Noh spoke on the racism many Asian men suffer within the gay community. Noh, a writer and journalist, with a regular column in the New York Blade, detailed findings from research he conducted on the Internet, in which blatantly racist comments are targeted at gay men of Asian and Pacific Islands descent. “New to L.A. and wanna know where I can go clubbing without being harassed by tons of creepy Asians… I am into white/Latin/Mideast men, i.e. eyelids and real noses. Plz. advise,” was one of the examples to which Noh pointed."
Or, Rob, how about this:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/81067…
or:
http://connection.ebscohost.com/content/…
just go to google scholar or pub med and type in a search for racism within the LGBT community.
As I've stated before, the LGBT community isn't that different in its racism, but to deny there's a problem is to deny literally decades of non-white gays saying, "hey, there's a problem."
Denial, it's not working for you.
37
Really, Sarah Palin. For what office is he running?
You said "But he also energizes the opposition, and those of US in the middle..", but then you say you opposed prop 8. Which is it?
Exactly how do you feel you were slighted? How were you insulted? Specifically, in what way did you expect to have us reach out to you, that we did not?
Denial about money? I wonder why companies spend so much money advertising. Are they in denial too?
You sure throw a lot of blame around for someone complaining about others placing blame.
Gay marriage IS here, Massachusetts, Connecticut, and will continue to spread. If you think it's not, you are in denial.
You said "But he also energizes the opposition, and those of US in the middle..", but then you say you opposed prop 8. Which is it?
Exactly how do you feel you were slighted? How were you insulted? Specifically, in what way did you expect to have us reach out to you, that we did not?
Denial about money? I wonder why companies spend so much money advertising. Are they in denial too?
You sure throw a lot of blame around for someone complaining about others placing blame.
Gay marriage IS here, Massachusetts, Connecticut, and will continue to spread. If you think it's not, you are in denial.
38
@36, No, I fully admit that is racism in the gay community, just like there is racism in the black community, the Asian community, and any other community you want to name. (Why do you keep making things up, and then attributing them to me.) It doesn't mean any of those groups are inherently racist.
You are the one making prejudice statements, while complaining about prejudice.
You are the one making prejudice statements, while complaining about prejudice.
39
Rob,
This is where you're getting confused:
"You said "But he also energizes the opposition, and those of US in the middle..", but then you say you opposed prop 8. Which is it?"
The fact that you think it is impossible for someone who is "in the middle" to vote in favor of what you think your needs are is EXACTLY the problem.
Of course I opposed Prop 8. These were privileges provided by the CA supreme court. There was no reason to revoke those privileges. Even those of us who are "in the middle" (e.g., we would prefer to move toward civil unions with full rights in 30 states before reaching for pie-in-the-sky gay marriage) support you.
But we do not support this endless nitpicking and haggling that Dan Savage engages in, whether it's over Rick Warren as the lousy invocation speaker (not exactly a CABINET position!) or the need for marriage over civil unions or the denial of any criticism of
1) anyone in the gay community
2) the HRC campaign (which FAILED)
3) the unbelievably foolish expenditure of 38 million dollars on fighting prop 8 when there are much more obvious needs within the gay community.
$38 million would have built a great facility to house gay teenage runaways from less enlightened areas of the country - we could have provided them counseling, drug abuse prevention programs, etc.
And in that way, we could have seriously reduced gay teen suicides.
But nooooo. It's all about marriage, all the time, and anyone who disagrees with this particular line is BAD, BAD, BAD.
Dan Savage is incredibly unable at this point in time to reflect on mistakes within this push for gay marriage.
What I'm advising you is that it's counterproductive to fail to reflect on why this didn't pass, or to assign, as many in the gay community did, all the blame to Mormons, blacks, Hispanics, fill-in-the-blank, instead of asking, "Hey, maybe in the middle of a massive economic downturn, people thought there were bigger issues on the table."
But nooooo....
I'm looking for the clip of Dan Savage.
Here's one from Dan Savage v. Tony Perkins.
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/th…
Is Dan Savage incapable of letting the other person speak? Even if the other person is truly hateful?
I understand he was upset. I totally understand that. But at what point do you acknowledge that you're not getting through to the other side?
At what point do you acknowledge that the remarkable strides toward gay rights took place during a huge economic upswing? And that in hard economic times, we will all have problems that put the push for gay marriage into a brutally realistic perspective.
Things are changing. Reach out. Stop alienating people who supported you. The middle is not a bad place to be - in fact, for gays who claim marriage is SO important, it is actually where they are fighting to get.
More...
This is where you're getting confused:
"You said "But he also energizes the opposition, and those of US in the middle..", but then you say you opposed prop 8. Which is it?"
The fact that you think it is impossible for someone who is "in the middle" to vote in favor of what you think your needs are is EXACTLY the problem.
Of course I opposed Prop 8. These were privileges provided by the CA supreme court. There was no reason to revoke those privileges. Even those of us who are "in the middle" (e.g., we would prefer to move toward civil unions with full rights in 30 states before reaching for pie-in-the-sky gay marriage) support you.
But we do not support this endless nitpicking and haggling that Dan Savage engages in, whether it's over Rick Warren as the lousy invocation speaker (not exactly a CABINET position!) or the need for marriage over civil unions or the denial of any criticism of
1) anyone in the gay community
2) the HRC campaign (which FAILED)
3) the unbelievably foolish expenditure of 38 million dollars on fighting prop 8 when there are much more obvious needs within the gay community.
$38 million would have built a great facility to house gay teenage runaways from less enlightened areas of the country - we could have provided them counseling, drug abuse prevention programs, etc.
And in that way, we could have seriously reduced gay teen suicides.
But nooooo. It's all about marriage, all the time, and anyone who disagrees with this particular line is BAD, BAD, BAD.
Dan Savage is incredibly unable at this point in time to reflect on mistakes within this push for gay marriage.
What I'm advising you is that it's counterproductive to fail to reflect on why this didn't pass, or to assign, as many in the gay community did, all the blame to Mormons, blacks, Hispanics, fill-in-the-blank, instead of asking, "Hey, maybe in the middle of a massive economic downturn, people thought there were bigger issues on the table."
But nooooo....
I'm looking for the clip of Dan Savage.
Here's one from Dan Savage v. Tony Perkins.
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/th…
Is Dan Savage incapable of letting the other person speak? Even if the other person is truly hateful?
I understand he was upset. I totally understand that. But at what point do you acknowledge that you're not getting through to the other side?
At what point do you acknowledge that the remarkable strides toward gay rights took place during a huge economic upswing? And that in hard economic times, we will all have problems that put the push for gay marriage into a brutally realistic perspective.
Things are changing. Reach out. Stop alienating people who supported you. The middle is not a bad place to be - in fact, for gays who claim marriage is SO important, it is actually where they are fighting to get.
42
If you feel so strongly that the leadership of the "gay community" is failing to address your issues, and you have the time to comment at such length here, why aren't you out getting the "gay community" interested in what you think is important? Dan started as an advice columnist in alternative weeklies. People call him up because his writings have made his name recognizable.
Instead of bitching about how Dan ruined Prop. 8, and how he caused the "gay community" to focus on white middle class fags, go raise the voices of the non-white "gay community"-the one that lives in the closet much of the time, unwilling to confront their "black community's" hatred and fear. Show that the "gay community" is a media myth, that homosexuals of all stripes have all sorts of opinions and that all sorts of issues need attention.
Don't just sit there and complain that Dan isn't doing what you want him to. GO do it yourself.
Instead of bitching about how Dan ruined Prop. 8, and how he caused the "gay community" to focus on white middle class fags, go raise the voices of the non-white "gay community"-the one that lives in the closet much of the time, unwilling to confront their "black community's" hatred and fear. Show that the "gay community" is a media myth, that homosexuals of all stripes have all sorts of opinions and that all sorts of issues need attention.
Don't just sit there and complain that Dan isn't doing what you want him to. GO do it yourself.
43
@18 I think what curious @13 is trying to say is while there IS something wrong with vast majority of straight parents, not ALL straight parents are terrible human beings. There are a few good ones out there but just few and far between.
44
42, thank you so much for your post. While I've been reading post after post after post after post by feh, I was thinking the same thing. Complaint after complaint, but no substance and nothing constructive.
Feh, you say over and over, "I'll vote for marriage equality," but every time, you feel the need to say something along the lines that we should just shut the fuck up and settle for Civil Unions. Why?
You won't find any TV appearances where Dan insulted the AA community, so you might as well stop trying. He didn't do that. And he didn't do that here either. He pointed out bigotry in the AA community, just as you feel the deep need to point it out in the gay community. So, you're even, OK?
I'm hesitant to speak for Dan, so I'll speak only for myself. The fact that homophobia exists in the AA community is a given. Anyone trying to deny that will look foolish. The fact that racism exists in the gay community is a given. And anyone trying to deny that will look foolish. What happened in November, however, is that black people exercised their homophobia in record large amounts at the polls. There's a world of difference between that and some of us not wanting to date blacks or Asians. That you think it's wrong for any of us to be upset and complain about it is extremely unfair of you. We have every right to be angry. We shouldn't have to "outreach" to anyone for our civil rights. I get that we will eventually have to. That doesn't make it any less of a bitter pill to swallow.
And you feh, would do well to back off. If you want to be an apologist for black homophobia, so be it. But expecting the rest of us to take it like good little subs is asking a bit too much.
Finally, referring to those of us who happen to agree with Dan on this one issue as blind "fans" and Sarah Palin equivalents is unforgivably insulting and actually lost me. I was reading your posts with an open mind, simply because this blog is one of the few places where I can find well-reasoned arguments from both sides. But not yours. Not if you're going to refer to me as the left equivalent of Palin.
So . . . good job there, you duty-bound activist, you.
More...
Feh, you say over and over, "I'll vote for marriage equality," but every time, you feel the need to say something along the lines that we should just shut the fuck up and settle for Civil Unions. Why?
You won't find any TV appearances where Dan insulted the AA community, so you might as well stop trying. He didn't do that. And he didn't do that here either. He pointed out bigotry in the AA community, just as you feel the deep need to point it out in the gay community. So, you're even, OK?
I'm hesitant to speak for Dan, so I'll speak only for myself. The fact that homophobia exists in the AA community is a given. Anyone trying to deny that will look foolish. The fact that racism exists in the gay community is a given. And anyone trying to deny that will look foolish. What happened in November, however, is that black people exercised their homophobia in record large amounts at the polls. There's a world of difference between that and some of us not wanting to date blacks or Asians. That you think it's wrong for any of us to be upset and complain about it is extremely unfair of you. We have every right to be angry. We shouldn't have to "outreach" to anyone for our civil rights. I get that we will eventually have to. That doesn't make it any less of a bitter pill to swallow.
And you feh, would do well to back off. If you want to be an apologist for black homophobia, so be it. But expecting the rest of us to take it like good little subs is asking a bit too much.
Finally, referring to those of us who happen to agree with Dan on this one issue as blind "fans" and Sarah Palin equivalents is unforgivably insulting and actually lost me. I was reading your posts with an open mind, simply because this blog is one of the few places where I can find well-reasoned arguments from both sides. But not yours. Not if you're going to refer to me as the left equivalent of Palin.
So . . . good job there, you duty-bound activist, you.
45
I kinda wish I wasn't partaking in this argument, but here goes.
I've had some eerie, unexplainable fan-boy-ism surrounding Dan Savage for a while. He talks about sex in a relatively public forum and has made a name (and I would assume a pretty good living) off of doing so. I'm envious, and in a lot of ways I respect and like the man.
But yes, he comes off as racist. He was one of the first bloggers to point the finger at the "seven out of ten blacks" who voted against Prop 8, a statistic that while factual, was totally irrelevant since blacks did not make up the majority of the votes that lost us Prop 8. White people voted against gay marriage.
Also, as much as gay marriage is a no brainer and of course we should have it, all the energy that's being devoted towards pushing forward Gay marriage really takes away from energy that could be directed towards education, outreach, hate crime legislation (read the story about the lesbian woman who was gang-raped in San Francisco recently for being a lesbian?), or any number of other, likely more important and crucial causes. Hell, this article which mentions teen suicide... a more important issue than the Gay marriage debate.
Feh is right. I still like Dan Savage, but he's made mistakes. Comparable to how I still like and support Obama despite the fact that he's made a mistake with Warren. It's called being reasonable, but holding people accountable.
I've had some eerie, unexplainable fan-boy-ism surrounding Dan Savage for a while. He talks about sex in a relatively public forum and has made a name (and I would assume a pretty good living) off of doing so. I'm envious, and in a lot of ways I respect and like the man.
But yes, he comes off as racist. He was one of the first bloggers to point the finger at the "seven out of ten blacks" who voted against Prop 8, a statistic that while factual, was totally irrelevant since blacks did not make up the majority of the votes that lost us Prop 8. White people voted against gay marriage.
Also, as much as gay marriage is a no brainer and of course we should have it, all the energy that's being devoted towards pushing forward Gay marriage really takes away from energy that could be directed towards education, outreach, hate crime legislation (read the story about the lesbian woman who was gang-raped in San Francisco recently for being a lesbian?), or any number of other, likely more important and crucial causes. Hell, this article which mentions teen suicide... a more important issue than the Gay marriage debate.
Feh is right. I still like Dan Savage, but he's made mistakes. Comparable to how I still like and support Obama despite the fact that he's made a mistake with Warren. It's called being reasonable, but holding people accountable.
46
45.
You mean he was one of the first bloggers with the balls big enough to say out loud what everyone already knew.
But Dan never, ever said or implied that the AA community made up the majority of votes that passed Prop 8. That was never his point, and it had nothing to do with his point. Many people made the connection in their own minds, then applied it to what Dan said. But it doesn't mean that Dan said or implied it. He didn't. I can't believe that people still think he did, but this is why Feh will never find a YouTube link with Dan criticizing black people. He's going on made up hearsay.
Hundreds (thousands?) of people misunderstood Dan's original post, because they kneejerked on the fact that it shined a light on a difficult topic about a particular race of people: a race of people who is itself sensitive to criticism, and who has a large, white, liberal group of champions who is also sensitive to any criticism applied toward it. So reading comprehension took a backseat.
Why does pointing out the statistic cause Dan to "come off as racist"? And why is that statistic not important to you? I would guess it's because marriage equality isn't all that important to you.
The statistic is important to me because it starkly highlights that an entire race of American citizens--if it had the power to pass civil rights legislation--would overwhelmingly vote against marriage equality for gays and lesbians. That is relevant. At least it's relevant to some of us, and it's stunning that accusations of racism are applied because of this.
You want it both ways: you want us to spend the thousands of hours and money it will take for "outreach" toward the black community, but you don't want the reasons for the necessity of that outreach to be stated out loud.
More...
He was one of the first bloggers to point the finger at the "seven out of ten blacks" who voted against Prop 8, a statistic that while factual, was totally irrelevant since blacks did not make up the majority of the votes that lost us Prop 8. White people voted against gay marriage.
You mean he was one of the first bloggers with the balls big enough to say out loud what everyone already knew.
But Dan never, ever said or implied that the AA community made up the majority of votes that passed Prop 8. That was never his point, and it had nothing to do with his point. Many people made the connection in their own minds, then applied it to what Dan said. But it doesn't mean that Dan said or implied it. He didn't. I can't believe that people still think he did, but this is why Feh will never find a YouTube link with Dan criticizing black people. He's going on made up hearsay.
Hundreds (thousands?) of people misunderstood Dan's original post, because they kneejerked on the fact that it shined a light on a difficult topic about a particular race of people: a race of people who is itself sensitive to criticism, and who has a large, white, liberal group of champions who is also sensitive to any criticism applied toward it. So reading comprehension took a backseat.
Why does pointing out the statistic cause Dan to "come off as racist"? And why is that statistic not important to you? I would guess it's because marriage equality isn't all that important to you.
The statistic is important to me because it starkly highlights that an entire race of American citizens--if it had the power to pass civil rights legislation--would overwhelmingly vote against marriage equality for gays and lesbians. That is relevant. At least it's relevant to some of us, and it's stunning that accusations of racism are applied because of this.
You want it both ways: you want us to spend the thousands of hours and money it will take for "outreach" toward the black community, but you don't want the reasons for the necessity of that outreach to be stated out loud.
47
46
"Hundreds (thousands?) of people misunderstood Dan's original post..."
no-wait, there were MILLIONS!!!
try a dozen readers, tops...
"Hundreds (thousands?) of people misunderstood Dan's original post..."
no-wait, there were MILLIONS!!!
try a dozen readers, tops...
48
Well, Neilson, I have no idea how big Slog is, but there are a lot of responses to his article. Hell, Gay USA even criticized him. Again, though, I don't know how big its audience is either.
But the Anti-Savage Facebook only has around 100 members, so you may have a point.
But the Anti-Savage Facebook only has around 100 members, so you may have a point.
49
Dan, this post would have been helped greatly by saying there's a problem w/SOME straight people & SOME straight parents. I dig your POV usually, but let's not make like a school dance over here, w/ poor gays on one side of the gym & big evil straights on the other. There's plenty of kind, compassionate parents of gay kids. There's some assholes too, but I really think if the message is - let's get some equality for gays, we won't get there by being divisive ALL the time.
The main point is good though. Be patient w/ your kids, gay & straight.
The main point is good though. Be patient w/ your kids, gay & straight.
51
Meh,
speaking as a straight parent, I was not insulted by Dan's post. I assumed he was referring to the asshole straight parents, not to the normal ones. In this day and age, most straight parents don't disown their gay kids, you know. I think Dan's mom was straight, and he seemed to think fairly highly of her. (and he came out back when it was harder for parents to accept homosexuality in their kids.)
Now the guy who used the term "haterosexuals" would have offended me if I knew enough about him to care about his opinion. But I don't.
speaking as a straight parent, I was not insulted by Dan's post. I assumed he was referring to the asshole straight parents, not to the normal ones. In this day and age, most straight parents don't disown their gay kids, you know. I think Dan's mom was straight, and he seemed to think fairly highly of her. (and he came out back when it was harder for parents to accept homosexuality in their kids.)
Now the guy who used the term "haterosexuals" would have offended me if I knew enough about him to care about his opinion. But I don't.
52
Yeah, there's a ton of racism within the gay community in terms of marginalizing people of colour or fetishizing race, and it's a fact and it needs to be examined and I think Dan's actually prety cognizant of it--I wish I remember the podcast number but he talked to a gay asian kid who was upset about his white fag friends using the term "rice queen" about how there are some white homos who think that because they are in some way oppressed they can get away with shit like this.
But as a queer person of color, I have to say that the thing about white gay racism, while real, and which should be examined, is, I think, a less pressing problem than homophobia within certain communities of color--mostly because straight communities of people of color are more numberous and powerful--no, the AA vote wouldn't have flipped the outcome of prop 8, but there were lots of latinos (my own community) out there too who voted against 8 as well. This did a lot more hurt to queers in California, some, I'm sure, queers of color, than a few racist white fags making bigoted comments are serving whites their drinks first can do.
And you want to talk about un-safe sex practices in the Asian community because of racism? What about the DL phenomenon within the AA community, which is resulting in the spread of STDs not just among black men having sex with other men but also among the wives they take the diseases home to. This is the result of homophobia within the AA community.
And yes, I think that people should take a closer look at where that homophobia comes from, my theory is that it has it's roots in the larger racist, sexist culture, a culture where white men called black men "boy" and claimed monopoly on manhood. I think there is a connection with this and with what feels to me like a need of some poeople in AA and latino communities to come down hard on anybody who steps outside gender roles. And the idea that only white people are gay isn't something that only racist whites are propogating--it comes from within communities of color as well, and I can't tell you how many Indians, Asians, Arabs etc I've heard say that there are no gays in their country, and to a lesser extent it happens with AA and latino communities as well, insofar as being gay is sometimes looked at as a certain kind of race betrayal.
And the people it hurts the most are the queers of color, who get hit by racism and homophobia on all sides. Me personally, I feel more comfortable with the queers, because while I can't say I've never encountered a bigot, I've never heard of racist fags beating anybody to death.
What needs to happen is what I remember doing in college on a smaller scale--the gay straight aliance and the african american student union members sat down and respectively hashed out the racism/homophobia issues. It has to happen in this country on larger scale. But feh, it doesn't work if you are demanding that just the gays look in the mirror about their racism problem and aren't willing to face the homophobia problem within the community of color.
More...
But as a queer person of color, I have to say that the thing about white gay racism, while real, and which should be examined, is, I think, a less pressing problem than homophobia within certain communities of color--mostly because straight communities of people of color are more numberous and powerful--no, the AA vote wouldn't have flipped the outcome of prop 8, but there were lots of latinos (my own community) out there too who voted against 8 as well. This did a lot more hurt to queers in California, some, I'm sure, queers of color, than a few racist white fags making bigoted comments are serving whites their drinks first can do.
And you want to talk about un-safe sex practices in the Asian community because of racism? What about the DL phenomenon within the AA community, which is resulting in the spread of STDs not just among black men having sex with other men but also among the wives they take the diseases home to. This is the result of homophobia within the AA community.
And yes, I think that people should take a closer look at where that homophobia comes from, my theory is that it has it's roots in the larger racist, sexist culture, a culture where white men called black men "boy" and claimed monopoly on manhood. I think there is a connection with this and with what feels to me like a need of some poeople in AA and latino communities to come down hard on anybody who steps outside gender roles. And the idea that only white people are gay isn't something that only racist whites are propogating--it comes from within communities of color as well, and I can't tell you how many Indians, Asians, Arabs etc I've heard say that there are no gays in their country, and to a lesser extent it happens with AA and latino communities as well, insofar as being gay is sometimes looked at as a certain kind of race betrayal.
And the people it hurts the most are the queers of color, who get hit by racism and homophobia on all sides. Me personally, I feel more comfortable with the queers, because while I can't say I've never encountered a bigot, I've never heard of racist fags beating anybody to death.
What needs to happen is what I remember doing in college on a smaller scale--the gay straight aliance and the african american student union members sat down and respectively hashed out the racism/homophobia issues. It has to happen in this country on larger scale. But feh, it doesn't work if you are demanding that just the gays look in the mirror about their racism problem and aren't willing to face the homophobia problem within the community of color.
53
#16 has a point. A real tragic point. I'v seen sucidal tendency with DV women I worked with, in response to being rejected by their church. So, I believe it is a real issue for gay children (because rejection by those we trust to love and protect is devastating, not because the issues are the same). We need to be aware, that this desperation often leads to risky behavior long into adulthood. Abusive behaviors, physical, emotional, and sexual leads to high risk behaviors. See 24, Dec. 2008 issue of the Oregonian "Research sees abuse as factor in HIV/AIDS. Other parents like me need to keep our eyes and arms open to all children.
54
How did this go from being about an innocuous comment encouraging straight parents to not be assholes to their gay kids to being a referendum on Dan Savage and his stranglehold over the racist white gay movement?
Oh yeah, because a couple of jerks went out of their way to hijack the conversation and steer it into Completely Irrelevant Country.
What does Prop 8 have to do with suicidal gay kids (other than the fact that they both seem to stem from a certain segment of ignorant and hateful straight people)?
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