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News & ArtsTuesday, December 23, 2008
Media Seattle Times to Puget Sound: Drop Dead
Posted by Dan Savage on Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 1:27 PM
From Susan Kelleher's front-page editorial in today's Seattle Times:
The icy streets are the result of Seattle's refusal to use salt, an effective ice-buster used by the state Department of Transportation and cities accustomed to dealing with heavy winter snows.... By ruling out salt and some of the chemicals routinely used by snowbound cities, Seattle has embraced a less-effective strategy for clearing roads, namely sand sprinkled on top of snowpack along major arterials, and a chemical de-icer that is effective when temperatures are below 32 degrees.
And why does the city refuse to use salt and other chemicals on its roads? Back to the Seattle Times:
"If we were using salt, you'd see patches of bare road because salt is very effective," [said Alex Wiggins, chief of staff for the Seattle Department of Transportation]. "We decided not to utilize salt because it's not a healthy addition to Puget Sound."
From the introduction to the "Failing Our Sound" special report published by the Seattle Times way back in May of 2008:
Despite all we've learned about Puget Sound over the years, and all the promises we keep making to do better, we haven't met the challenge.The Sound is by no means dead. By some measures it's cleaner and healthier than it was 30 years ago. Yet that progress is at risk because we're still betraying Puget Sound with the choices we make...
The "Failing Our Sound" series focused on development, not snowy streets, but in May the Seattle Times called for developers, homeowners, and our local elected officials to make sacrifices to protect the health of Puget Sound. Today the Seattle Times is howling at the city for pausing to consider the health of Puget Sound in the wake of this week's snowstorm.
So which is it, Seattle Times? Make sacrifices to protect Puget Sound? Or to hell with Puget Sound—dump salt and chemicals on our streets every time it snows? Was Frank's commute in from Mercer Island really that bad?
1
I got cornered today by KIRO 7 Radio on 6th and Stewart and they were trying to interview people. I tried to ignore the little prick who was asking "What do you think of Seattle not salting streets?" I told the prick three times (he really wanted me to hate the fact we did not salt the streets), that I was fine with it: salt rusts out the bottoms of vehicles and we don't get enough snow to make a non-issue an issue.
Screw salt; USE SAND!!!!!
Screw salt; USE SAND!!!!!
2
Bend, Oregon doesn't use salt either. Neither does Spokane, where there is 33 inches of snow on the ground. That's all I have to offer.
3
Did you actually read the article? It explains that there are also environmental problems with sand, on top of its being less effective. It creates air pollution, goes into waterways, etc.
4
Don't whine when your newspaper isn't delivered, Dumbass Dan. The Seattle Times also delivers The New York Times and The Wall Street Journal.
5
Maybe the Seattle Times Editorial Board is still smarting from their lack of influence in convincing voters to back their hero, "Mr. Smarm" Dino Rossi?
6
Since Puget Sound is an adjunct of the Pacific Ocean, there already IS salt in the Sound. The little salt required - once or twice a year - to make this alleged world-class city's streets navigable - is negligible. As trite as it sounds, what most of us would like is "to get a grip"...
7
Not EVERY time it snows, Savage you moron! Only at times like this, once in ten years. Once in ten years isn't going to fuck over the Sound OR people's cars. It IS going to clear the streets.
8
Fact error in the first quoted sentence.
Seattle's icy streets are actually a result of snow melting, then freezing. Writing like Kelleher's does little to dispel the notion that newspaper journalism cannot be objective.
Seattle's icy streets are actually a result of snow melting, then freezing. Writing like Kelleher's does little to dispel the notion that newspaper journalism cannot be objective.
9
@4 - On Sunday, my neighbor received his regularly delivered NYTimes; however, I did not receive my Sunday Seattle Times/P-I. 'Splain that, Lucy!
10
HAHA, WHO CALLED THIS?!? (To be fair it was guessed that ECB would pull this backflip)
Slog contributors complain about not enough being done for the snow
Slog contributors complain about things being done causing a negative secondary effect.
and the hyperbole makes it sound like the stranger is the enquirer.
Slog contributors complain about not enough being done for the snow
Slog contributors complain about things being done causing a negative secondary effect.
and the hyperbole makes it sound like the stranger is the enquirer.
11
Dan, are you on crack? You surely know that it is complete and utter nonsense that the limited use of salt required for most Seattle winters would cause any significant damage to Puget Sound. I have never heard anyone lament that the salt used in Chicago damages Lake Michigan, nor in fact have I heard anyone outside of the Pacific Northwest decry salt for this reason.
13
I XC skied to work today because the roads are to iffy for biking. Sand really slows down the skis and sand and salt eat away at bike drive trains.
14
To the Seattle Times Editorial Board:
As one who grew up in Chicago, I don't ever want to see the City of Seattle using salt on our roads. It is bad for cars, roads, bridges, wildlife, flora & fauna (which Chicago has precious little of) and the fragile & complex Puget Sound ecosystem.
And rather than ignorantly & smugly lecture the City, I'd like to see the Seattle Times get back to its priorities, and stem the tide of (not quite involuntary) layoffs of cool local arts people like Melinda Bargreen and Patrick MacDonald. Sure, times are tough in the newspaper business, but many of us support you because of your local arts & event coverage. That IS your value to our community.
We can't even keep track of who is left on your staff. I urge you to do your best to keep on board such local treasures as senior reporter Lynda Mapes, who time after time has made local stories come vibrantly alive for me.
As one who grew up in Chicago, I don't ever want to see the City of Seattle using salt on our roads. It is bad for cars, roads, bridges, wildlife, flora & fauna (which Chicago has precious little of) and the fragile & complex Puget Sound ecosystem.
And rather than ignorantly & smugly lecture the City, I'd like to see the Seattle Times get back to its priorities, and stem the tide of (not quite involuntary) layoffs of cool local arts people like Melinda Bargreen and Patrick MacDonald. Sure, times are tough in the newspaper business, but many of us support you because of your local arts & event coverage. That IS your value to our community.
We can't even keep track of who is left on your staff. I urge you to do your best to keep on board such local treasures as senior reporter Lynda Mapes, who time after time has made local stories come vibrantly alive for me.
15
LISTEN UP FUCKHEADS! What will bitching about this do? Nothing, cuase we wont see snow like this (unless the changing climate totally fucks us) again for another 16 years. I hear shit about the 92' storms and what not, but the last time it was this bad was 1974. its not a 16 year storm its a fucking 34 year storm. Sink in and enjoy it while it last. Next year we will probably bitch about the lack of snow.
16
About de-icing salt and the environment: http://www.enviroliteracy.org/article.ph…
Lake Michigan is already more polluted than we'd ever allow our ecosystem here. Seattle draws people here because of its relatively pristine environment, unlike Chicago or New Jersey.
Lake Michigan is already more polluted than we'd ever allow our ecosystem here. Seattle draws people here because of its relatively pristine environment, unlike Chicago or New Jersey.
17
"Road salt delivering a toxic shock; saline runoff into streams may harm aquatic animals."
Where? Lake Michigan.
Where? Lake Michigan.
18
uh, why hasn't Ask Mr Science guy chimed in on this...will using a little salt on icy hills the 4 to 6 times a year we have icy roads destroy the ever so fragile Puget Sound?
(which is a saltwater body of water.)
(which is a saltwater body of water.)
19
enjoy what?
the cold, the ice, the bleak whiteness that blinds the eye, the threat of breaking your leg, the loss of work and money because you can't make it into work, the enormous heat bills, chapped lips and cabin fever?
you can keep it.
the cold, the ice, the bleak whiteness that blinds the eye, the threat of breaking your leg, the loss of work and money because you can't make it into work, the enormous heat bills, chapped lips and cabin fever?
you can keep it.
20
A tasty omelet can only be made with broken eggs.
A healthy Sound is no tasty omelet if the Public Good, if everyones safety and well-being is at risk due to inaction. The city has to keep public roads open and passable to the public. In this case, let anything less be damned.
The government has everyones interest at stake. Private citizens, developers, homeowners, elected official have their self interests at stake. They should not pollute the Puget Sound for their own self interest. If those private folks did not pollute, there self-interest to pollute be damned, then Puget Sound could handle the once or twice a year that road salt in seattle is necessary.
The city puts everyone at risk by packing down the snow into ice. The city puts everyone at risk when that ice is allowed to remain for days. The city should not put people in danger because of there actions, even an action as noble as trying to reverse Puget Sound pollution.
\
Sorry, I am not making a case for government run amuck, but only for this narrow, narrow event of sanding streets.
21
If you dont like all that fun winter atmosphere you can always move south. I hear that the foreclosed home in CA and NV are great this time of year. Or do you want to keep you insulate Seattle Economy as well. Oh you want to have you cake and eat it too.
Well isn't that nice...........
Well isn't that nice...........
22
seriously, you can't use chicago and jersey as a frame of reference as to the amount and extent that salting would take place here.
23
Holy crap. Salt kills trees and poisons wells too.
"Portland, OR regularly replaces trees that are killed by salt that soaks into their roots. The state spends about $250,000 a year providing clean drinking water to residents whose wells exceed limits for salt because of road treatments."
"Portland, OR regularly replaces trees that are killed by salt that soaks into their roots. The state spends about $250,000 a year providing clean drinking water to residents whose wells exceed limits for salt because of road treatments."
26
@Dan Savage. Put a dick back in your mouth and shut the fuck up. For those of us beyond Cap Hill/Downtown, this snow went from pretty white stuff to the scourge of our daily lives in the week we've been stuck with it. Nickels, nut up and bring on the fucking salt!
28
Salt and de-icer aren't used in many places in Eastern WA either, mainly because it corrodes the undersides of your car and you'll end up with a rusty undercarriage come spring, unless you want to take your car to a car wash every other day.
Cities like Spokane and Pullman use coarse gravel as well as sand--gravel is effective in giving traction and breaking up ice, but you can probably expect a dinged up windshield in no time. There aren't any easy fixes, but gravel is a lot more environmentally safe, and as effective as salt.
Cities like Spokane and Pullman use coarse gravel as well as sand--gravel is effective in giving traction and breaking up ice, but you can probably expect a dinged up windshield in no time. There aren't any easy fixes, but gravel is a lot more environmentally safe, and as effective as salt.
29
@ 14:
Melinda Bargreen was not laid off. She has plenty of dough and didn't need either the job OR the aggravation that comes with working at the Times.
Patrick MacDonald likewise was not laid off. He was approaching retirement age anyway, and the buyout package they offered him made it worth his while to leave a few months early. My source for this is Patrick MacDonald.
Melinda Bargreen was not laid off. She has plenty of dough and didn't need either the job OR the aggravation that comes with working at the Times.
Patrick MacDonald likewise was not laid off. He was approaching retirement age anyway, and the buyout package they offered him made it worth his while to leave a few months early. My source for this is Patrick MacDonald.
30
For once, I agree with a Times editorial.
The vague assertion "because it's not healthy for Puget Sound" sounds more like an excuse than a logical inference. Months upon months of salt run-off (from winter roads and streets) doesn't seem to adversely affect fresh water habitats in the Midwest and Northeast. So how would (extremely rare) seeping of salt into Puget Sound negatively effect a gigantic body of salt water?
Seattle rarely gets snow and so gets caught unprepared. I understand. But the idea that the city is not salting the roads for some high-minded enviromental reason is laughable.
The vague assertion "because it's not healthy for Puget Sound" sounds more like an excuse than a logical inference. Months upon months of salt run-off (from winter roads and streets) doesn't seem to adversely affect fresh water habitats in the Midwest and Northeast. So how would (extremely rare) seeping of salt into Puget Sound negatively effect a gigantic body of salt water?
Seattle rarely gets snow and so gets caught unprepared. I understand. But the idea that the city is not salting the roads for some high-minded enviromental reason is laughable.
31
@17: Actually, the article says that salt levels in Lake Michigan are still well below acceptable levels. And none of these articles place the use of road salt in any sort of context. Obviously, human activities affect the environment and often in bad ways, but is salt really one of the worst offenders. And finally, is Puget Sound really cleaner than
Lake Michigan?
Lake Michigan?
32
Sorry, Ivan @29:
I know it's slightly off-topic, but Melinda Bargreen & Partick MacDonald both left under *threat* of layoff (I did say 'not quite involuntary').
They both intimated in their farewell columns that they would not have left if the buyout weren't offered and if it weren't likely they would have been cut anyway.
I know it's slightly off-topic, but Melinda Bargreen & Partick MacDonald both left under *threat* of layoff (I did say 'not quite involuntary').
They both intimated in their farewell columns that they would not have left if the buyout weren't offered and if it weren't likely they would have been cut anyway.
33
@ 32:
I read their columns, too, so what you think they "intimated" is one thing. What Patrick told me directly is something else altogether.
The positions of classical music critic and rock music critic might have been eliminated, but both of them would have been protected from layoffs by seniority language in the Guild contract, just reassigned to other beats.
Some people take a hike under those circumstances. Others do not.
I read their columns, too, so what you think they "intimated" is one thing. What Patrick told me directly is something else altogether.
The positions of classical music critic and rock music critic might have been eliminated, but both of them would have been protected from layoffs by seniority language in the Guild contract, just reassigned to other beats.
Some people take a hike under those circumstances. Others do not.
34
@23
wrong again -- your quote fraudulently iserts the two little letters OR -- standing for ORegon -- suggesting even a tiny bit of snow and commensurate salting can be devastating -- when in fact the link you cite isn't about ORegon IT'S ABOUT MAINE.
where they put salt down about 4 months long all winter.....
and you know what?
They still harvest lobstahs....because the salt doesn't hurt the SALTY OCEAN.
So it won't hurt the salty puget sound here if we do it like one time a year -- no one is saying do it 50x a year.
wrong again -- your quote fraudulently iserts the two little letters OR -- standing for ORegon -- suggesting even a tiny bit of snow and commensurate salting can be devastating -- when in fact the link you cite isn't about ORegon IT'S ABOUT MAINE.
where they put salt down about 4 months long all winter.....
and you know what?
They still harvest lobstahs....because the salt doesn't hurt the SALTY OCEAN.
So it won't hurt the salty puget sound here if we do it like one time a year -- no one is saying do it 50x a year.
35
Nazi's are evil. pffftttt....
(actually, it was my typing that was off. I am really too busy not killing myself on the ice to proof today)
(actually, it was my typing that was off. I am really too busy not killing myself on the ice to proof today)
36
lack of salt means slippery roads for longer, which also means most of the idiots wind up in the ditch in the first few days. Stay home until the idiots get selected out by nature, then proceed with caution.
Also, @12 is right. A salt truck and snow plow are the same thing. So, no plows, no salt. Works for me.
Also, @12 is right. A salt truck and snow plow are the same thing. So, no plows, no salt. Works for me.
37
I don't understand how we can have it both ways:
Either A.) It never snows here, this is a once in a lifetime event, stop complaining, there's no point in being prepared.
or B.) OMG!!!! If we use salt on the roads the Earth will DIE!!!!
If this really is a rarity, I doubt one week of salt use is going to create a significant impact. If it is a common occurrence than we need to be more prepared with plowing. It's either/or.
Either A.) It never snows here, this is a once in a lifetime event, stop complaining, there's no point in being prepared.
or B.) OMG!!!! If we use salt on the roads the Earth will DIE!!!!
If this really is a rarity, I doubt one week of salt use is going to create a significant impact. If it is a common occurrence than we need to be more prepared with plowing. It's either/or.
38
It seems as if not using salt is making certain types to hyperventilate a bit, why don't you pigs just sprinkle your Doritos leftovers out the window as you drive?
39
Such a pity Puget Sounders don't see snow often enough to actually learn how to drive in it. Used to live there, and have seen the madness first hand, like putting chains on with less than 1/16" of snow.
In Spokane, they let the snow compact down and sand, makes for fine driving. In Rochester NY, they salt like crazy, which makes your car last about 5 years unless you like daily car washes.
Problem with salt is once it melts all the snow and ice, any further snowfall requires more and more salt, otherwise the remaining salt on the road with turn the new snow into water, which freezes, and makes the ice problem worse.
And really, there are times when you can't pull a hill, nor should you try. That's what lengthy detours are for.
In Spokane, they let the snow compact down and sand, makes for fine driving. In Rochester NY, they salt like crazy, which makes your car last about 5 years unless you like daily car washes.
Problem with salt is once it melts all the snow and ice, any further snowfall requires more and more salt, otherwise the remaining salt on the road with turn the new snow into water, which freezes, and makes the ice problem worse.
And really, there are times when you can't pull a hill, nor should you try. That's what lengthy detours are for.
40
What can we do to hasten the demise of the Seattle Times? They're totally out of step with our city's values.
I haven't got it since the early 1990s. I stopped reading it online. Is it time to start boycotting its advertisers?
I haven't got it since the early 1990s. I stopped reading it online. Is it time to start boycotting its advertisers?
41
I personally feel that a little salt will make no difference to the Sound, however, I also agree with @39 that salt is no real answer in this situation. Salt simply converts snow to water and then reforms it overnight to ice if there is no drainage to get rid of the water. During the day the wet salty spray interferes with driving. If you have no plows salting makes less sense because you have to remove the heavy snow before salt has a chance to be effective. In New England they throw the snow well clear of the streets to prevent reforming of water to ice.
I recommend you clear off your cars at home and not contribute to the problem. Also recommend cinders. They are dirty but their dark color absorbs the heat from the day time sun. Additionally they will not hurt the Sound.
I recommend you clear off your cars at home and not contribute to the problem. Also recommend cinders. They are dirty but their dark color absorbs the heat from the day time sun. Additionally they will not hurt the Sound.
42
I've lived places where they salt the roads. Your muffler lasts two years before it rusts out. Bushes near the road die. Cars are caked with white stuff, and they rust out fast.
Salt sucks.
Salt sucks.
43
Maybe its snow getting to my head but everything has been pissing me off today.... and this stupid debate about the salty-streets is the latest to do so.
I recently moved back to the burbs after living in the city for a year.. and I have to say. It's been a humbling and refreshing experience to not be engulfed in such meaningless debates as 'to salt or not to salt', in the name of the environment, or in simply to play a blame game against city officials or the pick on hypocrisy of the Seattle Times... seriously?
Think about the PEOPLE.. I don't even celebrate X-mas but isn't this the season to be considering of our fellow man? Think about the people that suffer the most when you can't transport: people who need medical attention and paramedics cant get to them cuz of shit roads. people who HAVE to work and can't take time off cuz they need that money to pay the bills and feed their family and make payments on their toxic mortgages.
Anyways.. I'm not discounting the importance of this debate and I love my city, and it WAS annoying to drive in it today and I drove because last time I tried to commute it took me four hours to get to work. I appreciate the environmentally conscious city I live in, it's made a difference in the choices I make in my life, but coming from a lower middle-class immigrant family I also sometimes get REALLY annoyed by these debates that just sound like one cocky sob trying to out-prove the other smarty pants sob all for the same 'cause', when the actual 'cause' isn't even being looked at.
Salt is just one aspect, there are MANY other things polluting our sound and our world, so check yourself.
Happy Holidays.
I recently moved back to the burbs after living in the city for a year.. and I have to say. It's been a humbling and refreshing experience to not be engulfed in such meaningless debates as 'to salt or not to salt', in the name of the environment, or in simply to play a blame game against city officials or the pick on hypocrisy of the Seattle Times... seriously?
Think about the PEOPLE.. I don't even celebrate X-mas but isn't this the season to be considering of our fellow man? Think about the people that suffer the most when you can't transport: people who need medical attention and paramedics cant get to them cuz of shit roads. people who HAVE to work and can't take time off cuz they need that money to pay the bills and feed their family and make payments on their toxic mortgages.
Anyways.. I'm not discounting the importance of this debate and I love my city, and it WAS annoying to drive in it today and I drove because last time I tried to commute it took me four hours to get to work. I appreciate the environmentally conscious city I live in, it's made a difference in the choices I make in my life, but coming from a lower middle-class immigrant family I also sometimes get REALLY annoyed by these debates that just sound like one cocky sob trying to out-prove the other smarty pants sob all for the same 'cause', when the actual 'cause' isn't even being looked at.
Salt is just one aspect, there are MANY other things polluting our sound and our world, so check yourself.
Happy Holidays.
44
I live in Anchorage and we only use gravel on our streets here. The amount of salt that would be needed to melt our snow would turn our Cook Inlet into the frickin Dead Sea. Even if we didn't get much snow, I'd still vote gravel over salt. Though city streets aren't salted here, private parking lots and driveways often are (or they use this scary ice melt granules that are blue colored and only look like salt- lord knows what is in that) The private use of salt still causes a big problem with our fresh water streams and lakes as well as the Inlet.
To all you saying what's the big deal about salt getting into Puget Sound because it is a salt water body - how about checking your science facts first? Just because it is salt doesn't mean it is the same as salt in the ocean or the fact that nature maintains a delicate balance - even a little bit of something harmful or overdone can devastate an ecosystem.
Not to mention you have to realize salt they put on roads isn't just salt. There are chemicals they put in it to make it more effective on streets. If you think it is so harmless, try a taste. It's "just salt" afterall (anyone too stupid to recognize sarcasm, please don't actually taste it). Meanwhile yes gravel adds sediment to water supplies and gets ground up into dust by cars adding to the atmosphere and damaging air quality. But since you guys in Seattle only get snow every few years, gravel makes much more sense towards not fucking up the environment more than you have to.
I consider the Pacific Northwest, along with Alaska, one of the few parts of the country we still have a chance of keeping from turning into environmental wastelands. Let's not give in to the urge of convenience over nature
To all you saying what's the big deal about salt getting into Puget Sound because it is a salt water body - how about checking your science facts first? Just because it is salt doesn't mean it is the same as salt in the ocean or the fact that nature maintains a delicate balance - even a little bit of something harmful or overdone can devastate an ecosystem.
Not to mention you have to realize salt they put on roads isn't just salt. There are chemicals they put in it to make it more effective on streets. If you think it is so harmless, try a taste. It's "just salt" afterall (anyone too stupid to recognize sarcasm, please don't actually taste it). Meanwhile yes gravel adds sediment to water supplies and gets ground up into dust by cars adding to the atmosphere and damaging air quality. But since you guys in Seattle only get snow every few years, gravel makes much more sense towards not fucking up the environment more than you have to.
I consider the Pacific Northwest, along with Alaska, one of the few parts of the country we still have a chance of keeping from turning into environmental wastelands. Let's not give in to the urge of convenience over nature
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