Find Your Valentine
Slog
News & ArtsTuesday, December 23, 2008
2008 / Religion How the Mormons Raised Their Prop-8 Millions
Posted by David Schmader on Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 11:41 AM
It's a subject I've slogged about before: the creepy tactics used by the Mormon Church to get its followers to donate money to Proposition 8.
Whenever I've broached the subject, defensive LDSers have weighed in with objections—"The church has never ordered me to do anything!," etc, etc. This is unsurprising—the inability to recognize when they're operating under duress is a key trait of cult members.
But this past weekend gave me another glimpse into just how the Mormon Church got its followers to cough up a reported $20 million to strip same-sex California couples of equal marriage rights. The source: My uncle- and aunt-in-law, California Mormons who shared their tale of getting a visit from a ward authority figure, whose exact title and position I don't know, but who ranked high enough to have access to my aunt- and uncle-in-law's tithing information. Good Mormons tithe ten percent of their gross earnings to the church, and by multiplying a good Mormon's family's tithings by ten, church leaders can roughly estimate what a family's annual gross earnings are.
According to my aunt- and uncle-in-law, this was the information the ward authority figure showed up with, along with Prop 8 horror stories claiming that gays wouldn't stop their attacks on marriage until they forced Mormons to let them marry in the Temple, etc etc, and considering that the family earned $XXX,XXX last year, certainly that meant they could donate at least $XXX to Prop 8, couldn't they?
They could, and did, and fuck them too. (Especially since my uncle-in-law Joe is a former Jew, which makes his recent hiding behind "I was just following orders!" all the more reprehensible.)
1
If anything in this article should have been bolded, it was this:
"the inability to recognize when they're operating under duress is a key trait of cult members"
great post
"the inability to recognize when they're operating under duress is a key trait of cult members"
great post
2
All religions are cults. Just some are accepted by society as other may not be.
I for one think we should bring back the Roman Gods as the official Gods of America. HAIL JUPITER!!!!!
I for one think we should bring back the Roman Gods as the official Gods of America. HAIL JUPITER!!!!!
3
Do these types of posts get you in trouble with your in-laws? Airing the family dirty laundry publicly seems like it might strain things around the holiday dinner table.
4
I had honestly never thought of the Mormons as a cult, until your posts on this subject, David. I had previously just thought of them as just some kooky religion -- perhaps a bit kookier than most, but nothing to get worked up about.
But, the post about your sister (or sister-in-law?) who said something like "if it were just me, I would be firmly against Prop 8", but then donated to Yes on Prop 8 anyways.... well, that changed my mind a bit.
I just can't imagine a pro-birth control Catholic giving money to outlaw birth control, for example. The sign of a cult is when it's not okay to disagree with your religion on an issue. When disagreeing means you can't still have your faith.
But, the post about your sister (or sister-in-law?) who said something like "if it were just me, I would be firmly against Prop 8", but then donated to Yes on Prop 8 anyways.... well, that changed my mind a bit.
I just can't imagine a pro-birth control Catholic giving money to outlaw birth control, for example. The sign of a cult is when it's not okay to disagree with your religion on an issue. When disagreeing means you can't still have your faith.
6
Julie: Agreed on everything, and I didn't have such firm judgments re: LDS = cult before Prop 8 myself. Groups show their true selves in crisis, it seems, and Prop 8 is, among many other things, a crisis for the Mormon Church.
Cowboy: Thanks to Prop 8, things are already strained enough around the family dinner table. Also, it helps immensely that a number of my key in-laws are Mormons of sanity and bravery, who refused to donate to Prop 8 and marched against the church in the wake of its passage. These Mormons are some of my favorite people on earth, who are learning to use their church for what it is--a comforting, fully legal drug.
I love drugs. Just don't force me to do yours.
Cowboy: Thanks to Prop 8, things are already strained enough around the family dinner table. Also, it helps immensely that a number of my key in-laws are Mormons of sanity and bravery, who refused to donate to Prop 8 and marched against the church in the wake of its passage. These Mormons are some of my favorite people on earth, who are learning to use their church for what it is--a comforting, fully legal drug.
I love drugs. Just don't force me to do yours.
7
Speaking of cults, here is a "Cult Danger Evaluation Framework" assessment chart that has been in common use for over 20 years: The full description is at:
http://www.neopagan.net/ABCDEF.html
You can rate any organized group on the 18 points below and determine to what extent they engage in "cult" behavior as opposed run-of-the-mill, perhaps well-intentioned, or just goofy religious behavior. (Note: it also works when applied to Scientology.)
The categories are:
1) Internal Control: Amount of internal political and social power exercised by leader(s) over members; lack of clearly defined organizational rights for members.
2) External Control: Amount of external political and social influence desired or obtained; emphasis on directing members’ external political and social behavior.
3) Wisdom/Knowledge Claimed by leader(s); amount of infallibility declared or implied about decisions or doctrinal/scriptural interpretations; number and degree of unverified and/or unverifiable credentials claimed.
4) Wisdom/Knowledge Credited to leader(s) by members; amount of trust in decisions or doctrinal/scriptural interpretations made by leader(s); amount of hostility by members towards internal or external critics and/or towards verification efforts.
5) Dogma: Rigidity of reality concepts taught; amount of doctrinal inflexibility or “fundamentalism;” hostility towards relativism and situationalism.
6) Recruiting: Emphasis put on attracting new members; amount of proselytizing; requirement for all members to bring in new ones.
7) Front Groups: Number of subsidiary groups using different names from that of main group, especially when connections are hidden.
8) Wealth: Amount of money and/or property desired or obtained by group; emphasis on members’ donations; economic lifestyle of leader(s) compared to ordinary members.
9) Sexual Manipulation of members by leader(s) of non-tantric groups; amount of control exercised over sexuality of members in terms of sexual orientation, behavior, and/or choice of partners.
10) Sexual Favoritism: Advancement or preferential treatment dependent upon sexual activity with the leader(s) of non-tantric groups.
11) Censorship: Amount of control over members’ access to outside opinions on group, its doctrines or leader(s).
12) Isolation: Amount of effort to keep members from communicating with non-members, including family, friends and lovers.
13) Dropout Control: Intensity of efforts directed at preventing or returning dropouts.
14) Violence: Amount of approval when used by or for the group, its doctrines or leader(s).
15) Paranoia: Amount of fear concerning real or imagined enemies; exaggeration of perceived power of opponents; prevalence of conspiracy theories.
16) Grimness: Amount of disapproval concerning jokes about the group, its doctrines or its leader(s).
17) Surrender of Will: Amount of emphasis on members not having to be responsible for personal decisions; degree of individual disempowerment created by the group, its doctrines or its leader(s).
18) Hypocrisy: amount of approval for actions which the group officially considers immoral or unethical, when done by or for the group, its doctrines or leader(s); willingness to violate the group’s declared principles for political, psychological, social, economic, military, or other gain.
More...
http://www.neopagan.net/ABCDEF.html
You can rate any organized group on the 18 points below and determine to what extent they engage in "cult" behavior as opposed run-of-the-mill, perhaps well-intentioned, or just goofy religious behavior. (Note: it also works when applied to Scientology.)
The categories are:
1) Internal Control: Amount of internal political and social power exercised by leader(s) over members; lack of clearly defined organizational rights for members.
2) External Control: Amount of external political and social influence desired or obtained; emphasis on directing members’ external political and social behavior.
3) Wisdom/Knowledge Claimed by leader(s); amount of infallibility declared or implied about decisions or doctrinal/scriptural interpretations; number and degree of unverified and/or unverifiable credentials claimed.
4) Wisdom/Knowledge Credited to leader(s) by members; amount of trust in decisions or doctrinal/scriptural interpretations made by leader(s); amount of hostility by members towards internal or external critics and/or towards verification efforts.
5) Dogma: Rigidity of reality concepts taught; amount of doctrinal inflexibility or “fundamentalism;” hostility towards relativism and situationalism.
6) Recruiting: Emphasis put on attracting new members; amount of proselytizing; requirement for all members to bring in new ones.
7) Front Groups: Number of subsidiary groups using different names from that of main group, especially when connections are hidden.
8) Wealth: Amount of money and/or property desired or obtained by group; emphasis on members’ donations; economic lifestyle of leader(s) compared to ordinary members.
9) Sexual Manipulation of members by leader(s) of non-tantric groups; amount of control exercised over sexuality of members in terms of sexual orientation, behavior, and/or choice of partners.
10) Sexual Favoritism: Advancement or preferential treatment dependent upon sexual activity with the leader(s) of non-tantric groups.
11) Censorship: Amount of control over members’ access to outside opinions on group, its doctrines or leader(s).
12) Isolation: Amount of effort to keep members from communicating with non-members, including family, friends and lovers.
13) Dropout Control: Intensity of efforts directed at preventing or returning dropouts.
14) Violence: Amount of approval when used by or for the group, its doctrines or leader(s).
15) Paranoia: Amount of fear concerning real or imagined enemies; exaggeration of perceived power of opponents; prevalence of conspiracy theories.
16) Grimness: Amount of disapproval concerning jokes about the group, its doctrines or its leader(s).
17) Surrender of Will: Amount of emphasis on members not having to be responsible for personal decisions; degree of individual disempowerment created by the group, its doctrines or its leader(s).
18) Hypocrisy: amount of approval for actions which the group officially considers immoral or unethical, when done by or for the group, its doctrines or leader(s); willingness to violate the group’s declared principles for political, psychological, social, economic, military, or other gain.
9
I never really cared much about the Mormons before--you know, freedom of religion, live and let live, all that shit--then along came Prop 8, and now I sincerely hope that they all get teh cancer.
10
You wimps are just buttsore (still) that the Mormons kicked your complacent asses all over California (twice) even though gays outnumber Mormons 10 to 1 in California and raised more money on Prop 8.
Being losers is bad enough.
Being eternally sore losers is just PATHETIC.
get a life.
Being losers is bad enough.
Being eternally sore losers is just PATHETIC.
get a life.
11
maybe your unk and auntie just wanted to shut you up so they made up a juicy story to get you out of their hair.
maybe they're too nice to tell you to your face that your perverted disgusting 'lifestyle' makes them SICK and the only bright spot is that you'll never reproduce and they actually mortgaged their home and donated the entire $233,000 to Prop 8 passage.
maybe.
maybe they're too nice to tell you to your face that your perverted disgusting 'lifestyle' makes them SICK and the only bright spot is that you'll never reproduce and they actually mortgaged their home and donated the entire $233,000 to Prop 8 passage.
maybe.
12
LDSers hate it when anyone hears what goes on behind closed doors. Latest proof: The ridiculous hate sputtering at 10 and 11.: "Don't fuck with MY cult, faggot!"
13
If a religion makes your chant "Pay! Lay! Ale!" during a temple ceremony and make a slashing movement over your throat to symbolize what might happen if you reveal the secrets of the temple ceremony--- then you *might* be in a cult up until 1991.
14
#6
IF you are the one to tell SLC they have a crises, I guess I would believe it.
BUT, it is not you. Queer theory about Mormon affairs, laced with our one side opinions, can hardly be accurate or of great interest to SLC.
On the other hand, converting Evangelicals and Fundies might be driving the whole strategy.
IF you are the one to tell SLC they have a crises, I guess I would believe it.
BUT, it is not you. Queer theory about Mormon affairs, laced with our one side opinions, can hardly be accurate or of great interest to SLC.
On the other hand, converting Evangelicals and Fundies might be driving the whole strategy.
15
@10 & @11: W Bush was elected twice--who loves him now? Jim Crow lasted for decades, slavery for centuries in this country--good luck justifying the Mormon refusal to admit blacks to the priesthood today. Women didn't get the vote until the early 1900s. Mormons are on the wrong side of Prop. 8. They may have won this round, but they're going down in history on the same page as Bull Connor. Fry in hell, fuckers. Hah hah.
16
David,
Let your aunt and uncle-in-law know that the penance for contributing $XXX to Yes on 8 is a contribution of $XXX+$1 to some good LGBT organization, such as Equality Utah, which is trying to get the LDS church to live up to the statements it made just after the November election, and pass some gay rights legislation in Utah.
They could also contribute to their local LGBT community center.
(IMHO HRC has enough money already; Joe Solomonese don't need their money nearly as much as local organizations doing real, impactful work do...)
Let your aunt and uncle-in-law know that the penance for contributing $XXX to Yes on 8 is a contribution of $XXX+$1 to some good LGBT organization, such as Equality Utah, which is trying to get the LDS church to live up to the statements it made just after the November election, and pass some gay rights legislation in Utah.
They could also contribute to their local LGBT community center.
(IMHO HRC has enough money already; Joe Solomonese don't need their money nearly as much as local organizations doing real, impactful work do...)
17
The Mormon church demands copies of their member's W-2 forms, to remain in 'good standing'. There's no guesswork involved regarding what a member makes. How else would they know whether or not one is tithing the proper amount? If you are not tithing your 10%, you get a visit from the elders.
David- I wish you could get the *real* facts about Mormonism since you're so closely related to them. My father recently converted to Mormonism since he's been married to one for 24 years; he is now in the process of re-writing our family history to say that my grandparents would have wanted to be Mormons if only they'd known.
This is total slander to my grandparents who never would have allowed their religion to dictate their decisions for them.
David- I wish you could get the *real* facts about Mormonism since you're so closely related to them. My father recently converted to Mormonism since he's been married to one for 24 years; he is now in the process of re-writing our family history to say that my grandparents would have wanted to be Mormons if only they'd known.
This is total slander to my grandparents who never would have allowed their religion to dictate their decisions for them.
18
@15
>>>"Women didn't get the vote until the early 1900s."<<<
Actually Mormon women were among the first to receive the vote.
Women's suffrage was granted first in 1869 by the Utah territorial legislature but revoked by Congress in 1887 as part of a national effort to rid the territory of polygamy. It was restored in 1895, when the right to vote and hold office was written into the constitution of the new state.
With no dissenting votes, the territorial legislature passed an act giving the vote to women in February 1869. No states permitted women to vote at the time.
Despite efforts of national suffrage leaders to protect the vote for Utah women from congressional action, it was taken away by the Edmunds-Tucker antipolygamy act in 1887.
Women's suffrage was written into the new Utah Constitution adopted in November 1895. Utah women succeeded in 1895 where women elsewhere had failed because their efforts were approved by leaders of the main political force in the state--the Mormon church.
In contrast California women didn’t recieve the vote until 1911, Illinois in 1913 and nationally in 1920.
>>>"Women didn't get the vote until the early 1900s."<<<
Actually Mormon women were among the first to receive the vote.
Women's suffrage was granted first in 1869 by the Utah territorial legislature but revoked by Congress in 1887 as part of a national effort to rid the territory of polygamy. It was restored in 1895, when the right to vote and hold office was written into the constitution of the new state.
With no dissenting votes, the territorial legislature passed an act giving the vote to women in February 1869. No states permitted women to vote at the time.
Despite efforts of national suffrage leaders to protect the vote for Utah women from congressional action, it was taken away by the Edmunds-Tucker antipolygamy act in 1887.
Women's suffrage was written into the new Utah Constitution adopted in November 1895. Utah women succeeded in 1895 where women elsewhere had failed because their efforts were approved by leaders of the main political force in the state--the Mormon church.
In contrast California women didn’t recieve the vote until 1911, Illinois in 1913 and nationally in 1920.
19
@17
David- we all wish you could get the 'real facts' about Mormonism since you seem determined not to let your ignorance and bigotry get in the way of spreading misinformation.
David- we all wish you could get the 'real facts' about Mormonism since you seem determined not to let your ignorance and bigotry get in the way of spreading misinformation.
20
19: My facts come from "real Mormons." But maybe in your estimation, real Mormons are the ones who don't tell the secrets of the church (like the facts of the money-grubbing home visits from ward higher-ups) to outsiders. How very cultish.
21
Also, to be fair, the facts of the home visit were NOT directly related to me, an outsider, but to one of the admirably evolved Mormons alluded to above—my father-in-law, who shared the aunt-and-unc's story with me.
Also, the flipping out 10, 11, and 19 is exactly why I'll keep writing posts like these, with as much insider information as I'm provided. Like most cults, the Mormons are absolutely fanatical about "controlling the story" (rewriting history if need be) and getting real stories out there, to help balance out the "Real Story," is important.
Also, the flipping out 10, 11, and 19 is exactly why I'll keep writing posts like these, with as much insider information as I'm provided. Like most cults, the Mormons are absolutely fanatical about "controlling the story" (rewriting history if need be) and getting real stories out there, to help balance out the "Real Story," is important.
22
@4
" The sign of a cult is when it's not okay to disagree with your religion on an issue. When disagreeing means you can't still have your faith."
What a load of shit.
What you mean is any religion that teaches something different from your personal set of prejudices and bigotries must be a cult.
We realize it is fashionable for modern so-called 'religions' to make it up as they go, to vote and poll and caucus to decide what (if anything) they will believe in and to never ever demand anything of their members or challenge them. But in the old days religions stood for something, they didn't ask you what you wanted to believe, they told you. If you didn't agree you were free to hit the road.
A religion that sticks to its principles is not a cult, you stupid bitch. No more than someone who opposes gay marriage is a bigot. Borrow a dictionary.
" The sign of a cult is when it's not okay to disagree with your religion on an issue. When disagreeing means you can't still have your faith."
What a load of shit.
What you mean is any religion that teaches something different from your personal set of prejudices and bigotries must be a cult.
We realize it is fashionable for modern so-called 'religions' to make it up as they go, to vote and poll and caucus to decide what (if anything) they will believe in and to never ever demand anything of their members or challenge them. But in the old days religions stood for something, they didn't ask you what you wanted to believe, they told you. If you didn't agree you were free to hit the road.
A religion that sticks to its principles is not a cult, you stupid bitch. No more than someone who opposes gay marriage is a bigot. Borrow a dictionary.
23
Honestly, could I verify this? Could I actually contact your aunt and uncle and verify this very thing? Why am I asking this? Because this is just YOUR WORD. And, if it can't be supported, nor substantiated, then it has no bearing on reality and only based upon your own self-cognitive delusions because of your own bigotry and bias.
Yes, I am asking for empirical evidence for your "slog" can you pony it up and provide it? If you can't then there is evidence to disprove your notion.
As for cults, anyone who studies Ancient religions understands the academic usage of the term. Unfortunately, this definition is perverted to be used as a negative connotation for those who disagree with the Protestant Christian notion of Christianity.
Besides, if Christ were to come down from heaven and declare that Homosexual is wrong and abominable, those of the GBLT community would be like the pious self-righteous first century Jews; only difference would be the GBLT members would not take up stones, but bemoan and cry how homophobic Christ is and how wrong he is.
Who are you to say to God what is right and just? You have no such authority.
The reality that people won't say here and in other pro-gay activist news media is that the same-sex unions NEVER LOST THEIR CIVIL RIGHTS, NOR HAD THEIR CIVIL RIGHTS REMOVED, but the definition is substantiated that marriage is sacred and between a man and a woman.
While David and others comment here about how "Cultic" the Mormon Church is in their promoting members to stand for the sacred covenant of marriage, what they are not willing and refuse to tell people with open honesty is that they are worse than the Mormon Leaders because many of the Gay Activists use lies, deceitful tactics to sway their very own followers into believing that there was a great injustice done with the passing of proposition 8. No, there was no great injustice done. What was done were people who stood up and said "We define marriage as being between a man and a woman, not between a man and a man or a woman between a woman".
Next time, people like David need to post facts rather than their own biased bigoted opinions. Until then, they are misleading their own followers with soured milk and spoiled meat.
More...
Yes, I am asking for empirical evidence for your "slog" can you pony it up and provide it? If you can't then there is evidence to disprove your notion.
As for cults, anyone who studies Ancient religions understands the academic usage of the term. Unfortunately, this definition is perverted to be used as a negative connotation for those who disagree with the Protestant Christian notion of Christianity.
Besides, if Christ were to come down from heaven and declare that Homosexual is wrong and abominable, those of the GBLT community would be like the pious self-righteous first century Jews; only difference would be the GBLT members would not take up stones, but bemoan and cry how homophobic Christ is and how wrong he is.
Who are you to say to God what is right and just? You have no such authority.
The reality that people won't say here and in other pro-gay activist news media is that the same-sex unions NEVER LOST THEIR CIVIL RIGHTS, NOR HAD THEIR CIVIL RIGHTS REMOVED, but the definition is substantiated that marriage is sacred and between a man and a woman.
While David and others comment here about how "Cultic" the Mormon Church is in their promoting members to stand for the sacred covenant of marriage, what they are not willing and refuse to tell people with open honesty is that they are worse than the Mormon Leaders because many of the Gay Activists use lies, deceitful tactics to sway their very own followers into believing that there was a great injustice done with the passing of proposition 8. No, there was no great injustice done. What was done were people who stood up and said "We define marriage as being between a man and a woman, not between a man and a man or a woman between a woman".
Next time, people like David need to post facts rather than their own biased bigoted opinions. Until then, they are misleading their own followers with soured milk and spoiled meat.
24
SeattleGhostWriter: Thank you, your response is my favorite yet. (LDSers get so freaked out when inside stories get told they become babbling fools.) Isn't it enough that same-sex couples will suffer in eternal damnation? Why do you have to fight against equal rights on earth? We'll get our come-uppance someday, if your beliefs are accurate, so just chill the fuck out.
Speaking of which: I love how you demand hard evidence for an interpersonal family story but accept your religious beliefs wholesale. You wrote: "If it can't be supported, nor substantiated, then it has no bearing on reality and only based upon your own self-cognitive delusions because of your own bigotry and bias." God how I wish you would dare to apply this criteria to your religion.
Good luck.
Speaking of which: I love how you demand hard evidence for an interpersonal family story but accept your religious beliefs wholesale. You wrote: "If it can't be supported, nor substantiated, then it has no bearing on reality and only based upon your own self-cognitive delusions because of your own bigotry and bias." God how I wish you would dare to apply this criteria to your religion.
Good luck.
25
SeattleGhostWriter: Thank you, yours in my favorite response yet. (LDSers get so twitchy when inside stories get told, and you're a wonderful example of that.)
I especially love how you demand hard evidence for an interpersonal family story, but present your religious beliefs as fact. You write: "If it can't be supported, nor substantiated, then it has no bearing on reality and only based upon your own self-cognitive delusions because of your own bigotry and bias." God I wish you had the courage to apply this to your own religion.
Re: claims of gays' "bigotry": When same-sex marriage supporters fund an initiative to strip Mormons of actual rights (not just their "rights" to deprive others of equal rights) , then you can claim retaliatory bigotry. Until then, isn't it enough that all us gays and those who support us will never know the eternal glory awaiting true believers like yourself? Isn't this punishment enough? Why do you have to mess with our earthly existences too?
I especially love how you demand hard evidence for an interpersonal family story, but present your religious beliefs as fact. You write: "If it can't be supported, nor substantiated, then it has no bearing on reality and only based upon your own self-cognitive delusions because of your own bigotry and bias." God I wish you had the courage to apply this to your own religion.
Re: claims of gays' "bigotry": When same-sex marriage supporters fund an initiative to strip Mormons of actual rights (not just their "rights" to deprive others of equal rights) , then you can claim retaliatory bigotry. Until then, isn't it enough that all us gays and those who support us will never know the eternal glory awaiting true believers like yourself? Isn't this punishment enough? Why do you have to mess with our earthly existences too?
Advertisement
Most Commented on Slog
-
SL Letter of the Day: Life Sentence by Dan Savage
-
SL Letter of the Day: Daddy Loves Who? by Dan Savage
-
Required Listening: Howard Stern on Ellen, JC Penney, Bullied Gay Kids, Rosie, Santorum, Bachmann, et al by Dan Savage
-
Crowdsourcing Uncut Police Video from the Dec. 12 Occupy Protest at the Port of Seattle by Eli Sanders
-
State Legislator Testifies That His Opposition to Same-Sex Marriage Came to Him from a Commercial for Jack in the Box by Christopher Frizzelle
-
"Let me be the first one to say: My business will refuse to participate in a same-sex marriage ceremony," by Republican Representative Matt Shea of the Spokane Valley by Eli Sanders
-
The Onion Is on a Roll: "Iran Worried U.S. Might Be Building 8,500th Nuclear Weapon" by Charles Mudede
-
"I don't know if I want to be here [if gay marriage passes]," by Republican State Senator Jay Rodne of North Bend by Eli Sanders
-
Announcing The Stranger's Tournament of Dunces! Who's the Dumbest Representative in the State House? by Christopher Frizzelle
-
Republicans Put Gay Marriage on the Ballot at Their Own Risk by Goldy
RSS
Facebook
Twitter
Comments (26) RSS