Monday, December 22, 2008
Religion / Homo / Politics What He Said
Posted by Dan Savage on Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 9:02 AM
I've been scratching my head for several days now, trying to figure out why practically every news story about Rick Warren explains that he's not anti-gay, and in fact quite progressive and moderate, because he's worked on AIDS in Africa. Well, bully for him. But there are two problems there:1. I'm not African; and
2. AIDS in Africa is a predominantly heterosexual disease.
There's a reason that evangelicals work on AIDS in Africa. Because that way they don't have to deal with the "gay" ick-factor. And even better, as Jesse Helms once said—Helms was also a big fan of working on AIDS in Africa—the African AIDS crisis is especially affecting a large number of children, the "innocent victims," as Helms called them.
So, yes, right-wing bigots like to work on AIDS in Africa because there's no major homo component to the disease over there, and even better, a number of the "victims" are "innocent," unlike the "guilty" AIDS sufferers in America who are g-a-y.
Don't get me wrong, I'm glad for anyone who wants to help the AIDS crisis in Africa. But spare us the condescending crap about how Rick Warren is a friend of gay Americans because he works on a heterosexual disease in a continent far far away.
1
Being angry beats being motivated!
2
I'm... no fan of Rick Warren. But a few things occur to me:
1) Treating AIDS patients, or treating those without medical care in impoverished African countries should be a higher priority goal than gay marriage, regardless of where you live. The notion that gay marriage became either the number one human rights issue or the number one civil rights issue to liberal Californians is a sorry statement, given the life-or-death civil rights struggles in this state alone, let alone the larger US or in other nations.
2) Rick Warren, for all his "ugh-where-do-I-start-with-this-berzerkazoid-preacher" has nevertheless done some good in the world - and no doubt in a more critical capacity than Dan Savage has. I'm sorry - but getting medicine and volunteers out there is arguably more good for the world than typing on a blog, and those of us who've done the hard work of patient care should at least appreciate what Warren has organized - EVEN IF I don't agree with all of Warren's work in Africa.
3) We - gays, straights, blacks, whites - are really facing more important problems than the horror that the Pres Elect has chosen someone for a lousy invocation who doesn't make the PC cut.
For Pete's sake, let's acknowledge that continuing to harp on this works against the ultimate goal of marriage equality.
I regret to say this, but this appears to be more of Savage's self-aggrandizement to his largely dittohead fans. I'm against dittoheadism, whether it comes from Rush or Savage.
1) Treating AIDS patients, or treating those without medical care in impoverished African countries should be a higher priority goal than gay marriage, regardless of where you live. The notion that gay marriage became either the number one human rights issue or the number one civil rights issue to liberal Californians is a sorry statement, given the life-or-death civil rights struggles in this state alone, let alone the larger US or in other nations.
2) Rick Warren, for all his "ugh-where-do-I-start-with-this-berzerkazoid-preacher" has nevertheless done some good in the world - and no doubt in a more critical capacity than Dan Savage has. I'm sorry - but getting medicine and volunteers out there is arguably more good for the world than typing on a blog, and those of us who've done the hard work of patient care should at least appreciate what Warren has organized - EVEN IF I don't agree with all of Warren's work in Africa.
3) We - gays, straights, blacks, whites - are really facing more important problems than the horror that the Pres Elect has chosen someone for a lousy invocation who doesn't make the PC cut.
For Pete's sake, let's acknowledge that continuing to harp on this works against the ultimate goal of marriage equality.
I regret to say this, but this appears to be more of Savage's self-aggrandizement to his largely dittohead fans. I'm against dittoheadism, whether it comes from Rush or Savage.
3
Anybody read the War Room post on Salon today?
http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/
http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/
4
So if you don't care about African heterosexuals with AIDS because you're a white homosexual would all nonhomosexual Americans be justified if they decide they don't care about AIDS in homosexuals?
5
While I agree with some of #2 comments I would like to add that I dont know that calling Rick Warren a rightwing bigot is totally correct. After all look at his followers, books, and etc. he has to represent (as much as i hate it) a certain element of mainstream america. we need to focus on the fact that science will soon prove that sexuality is no more a choice than eye color. and in the meantime I think the "gays" would be better served doing outreach into these bigoted communities. afterall it is the human response to fear the unknown and with Homosexuals being a small percentage it is both the gays and their friends responsibility to educate and influence.
6
Sorry, the one about Melissa Etheridge meeting Rick Warren.
http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/2…
http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/2…
7
Evangelicals interest in "AIDS in Africa" seems to mainly be the opportunity to lecture black people about their sexual practices. Their reveling in the supposed immorality and licentiousness of Africans is racist and unseemly. The taking up of the issue by evangelicals and W. has blocked effective efforts to slow or stop the spread of the disease in Africa.
8
@2 - this post isn't Savage talking, it's John Aravosis (whoever that is). Not that it COULDN'T be,-- it just isn't this time.
IMHO this level of self-centeredness seems a little over the top, *even* for Dan.
IMHO this level of self-centeredness seems a little over the top, *even* for Dan.
9
The Evangelical movement, like most other mainstream Christian religions, has a long history of doing "good deeds" in Africa. But, while the immediate goal may be laudable (e.g. working to reduce the spread of communicable diseases), the long-term goal has always been, and continues to be, to convert as much of the African population to Christianity as possible.
So, good on Rick and all, but let us not forget the implicit "Manifest Destiny" component at work here as well.
So, good on Rick and all, but let us not forget the implicit "Manifest Destiny" component at work here as well.
10
Yes, we should fight AIDS everywhere. But why do they get to pick and choose who's worthy of saving? Or, at least, why do we think it gives them the moral highground to do so?
As much as Rick Warren has done to fight AIDS in Africa, his ilk has promoted it here.
As much as Rick Warren has done to fight AIDS in Africa, his ilk has promoted it here.
11
#8, doh, sorry.
#7,
I agree that I don't like their approach. But the reality is that getting nurses and health care teams into underserved areas does more than fight AIDS.
Some of those health care workers who went in with an "evangelist" attitude will be learning something from the people they are serving.
They will not emerge exactly as they went in. Their faith will have strengthened, but they may also grasp that there are other approaches that may be more effective.
Also - there is a moral good in recognizing that our wants and needs are pretty petty when compared to the level of suffering we have largely allowed ourselves to ignore. As it is for evangelists, so should it be for ourselves.
#7,
I agree that I don't like their approach. But the reality is that getting nurses and health care teams into underserved areas does more than fight AIDS.
Some of those health care workers who went in with an "evangelist" attitude will be learning something from the people they are serving.
They will not emerge exactly as they went in. Their faith will have strengthened, but they may also grasp that there are other approaches that may be more effective.
Also - there is a moral good in recognizing that our wants and needs are pretty petty when compared to the level of suffering we have largely allowed ourselves to ignore. As it is for evangelists, so should it be for ourselves.
12
@5-
Are you aware that Warren is on record as saying that it wouldn't matter to him if it is proven that homosexuality is not a "choice?" choice or not, it is all the same to him, homosexuality is a sin, to be banned from membership in his church and hell-bound. In an interview, he states that if homosexuality is "natural" such as other human "faults" as how "men want to have sex with every beautiful woman they see" (his words, not mine), then gays should just RESIST all sexual urges and be celibate for life. And go to hell if they don't.
Defense of this man is lame.
Are you aware that Warren is on record as saying that it wouldn't matter to him if it is proven that homosexuality is not a "choice?" choice or not, it is all the same to him, homosexuality is a sin, to be banned from membership in his church and hell-bound. In an interview, he states that if homosexuality is "natural" such as other human "faults" as how "men want to have sex with every beautiful woman they see" (his words, not mine), then gays should just RESIST all sexual urges and be celibate for life. And go to hell if they don't.
Defense of this man is lame.
13
comte,
fair enough, but there are also many christian missionaries who are doing valuable work in Africa and elsewhere - ask Nicholas Kristof (not Bill Kristol) at the NYTimes who's written quite a bit about the real contributions they have made.
Raphael, #10 wrote:
"As much as Rick Warren has done to fight AIDS in Africa, his ilk has promoted it here."
huh? How has Rick Warren promoted AIDS here? I don't know anyone, of any political stripe, who is "promoting" AIDS.
To quote Cleavon Little in Blazing Saddles, you're making a german spectacle of yourself...
replace german, insert liberal
As a liberal, I just want to keep our side rational, not descend into the muckymuck of Limbaugh style.
fair enough, but there are also many christian missionaries who are doing valuable work in Africa and elsewhere - ask Nicholas Kristof (not Bill Kristol) at the NYTimes who's written quite a bit about the real contributions they have made.
Raphael, #10 wrote:
"As much as Rick Warren has done to fight AIDS in Africa, his ilk has promoted it here."
huh? How has Rick Warren promoted AIDS here? I don't know anyone, of any political stripe, who is "promoting" AIDS.
To quote Cleavon Little in Blazing Saddles, you're making a german spectacle of yourself...
replace german, insert liberal
As a liberal, I just want to keep our side rational, not descend into the muckymuck of Limbaugh style.
14
@2 Warren can help the poor and the sick without making his help conditional on keeping gay people 2nd class.
Below are Warren's priorities. Do you think they are in order? Do you see the poor and the sick among his priorities?
http://www.rightwingwatch.org/2008/08/wa…
"5 issues that are non-negotiable"
[snip]
"Here are five questions to ask when considering who to vote for in this election:
1. What does each candidate believe about abortion and protecting the lives of unborn children?
2. What does each candidate believe about using unborn babies for stem-cell harvesting?
3. What does each candidate believe about homosexual marriage?
4. What does each candidate believe about human cloning?
5. What does each candidate believe about euthanasia - the killing of elderly and invalids?"
Below are Warren's priorities. Do you think they are in order? Do you see the poor and the sick among his priorities?
http://www.rightwingwatch.org/2008/08/wa…
"5 issues that are non-negotiable"
[snip]
"Here are five questions to ask when considering who to vote for in this election:
1. What does each candidate believe about abortion and protecting the lives of unborn children?
2. What does each candidate believe about using unborn babies for stem-cell harvesting?
3. What does each candidate believe about homosexual marriage?
4. What does each candidate believe about human cloning?
5. What does each candidate believe about euthanasia - the killing of elderly and invalids?"
15
I dunno, Feh, your arguments just seem to result in some kind of demand that we ignore one suffering to attend to the other. Let those who want to point out the suffering that Warren's views cause, and just attend to your own agenda.
Warren is a P-R-I-C-K. This does not mean that I think that fighting AIDS in Africa is a bad thing.
Warren is a P-R-I-C-K. This does not mean that I think that fighting AIDS in Africa is a bad thing.
16
#12,
Are you aware that Rick Warren says that gay couples should have equal rights? That was on the beliefnet interview.
Please stop alienating the people you will need to get the legislation you specifically requested.
As Prop 8 proves, we need the support of the religious community - or we will continue to throw money down the rabbit hole of the HRC campaign. And this will continue to be an "issue" instead of a "goal reached."
Look, you won't lose your dignity if you sit with the unpopular slimy kid from homeroom for the inauguration. You will possibly make a friend who can help you toward your goal.
Too much of this anti-Rick-Warren hype smacks of unresolved childhood issues. We all have them. It's entirely understandable. It's just totally counterproductive to our shared goals, of which marriage equality is one.
Are you aware that Rick Warren says that gay couples should have equal rights? That was on the beliefnet interview.
Please stop alienating the people you will need to get the legislation you specifically requested.
As Prop 8 proves, we need the support of the religious community - or we will continue to throw money down the rabbit hole of the HRC campaign. And this will continue to be an "issue" instead of a "goal reached."
Look, you won't lose your dignity if you sit with the unpopular slimy kid from homeroom for the inauguration. You will possibly make a friend who can help you toward your goal.
Too much of this anti-Rick-Warren hype smacks of unresolved childhood issues. We all have them. It's entirely understandable. It's just totally counterproductive to our shared goals, of which marriage equality is one.
17
@2 (feh).. I'm pretty sure Dan Savage has done more than type on a blog. And I'm pretty sure that, if dan savage was in a position to give his money away (cuz let's remember here, warren probably has more money to give than dan...), he probably gives his money to organizations that are actually going to HELP people with aids, not to proselytize first, then give medicine. and i'm pretty sure rick warren probably gives all his money to church based organizations who are teaching the africans abstinence only sex education, which we all know, ain't working.
18
The trolls, the apologists, the breeders who know best, and the kool-aid drinkers can have the words put plainly before them and they still respond as if something else was written. The post from Americablog that Dan has posted here on Slog is very clear. Tubby Warren's AIDS work in Africa does NOT exonerate him from his anti-gay bigotry here in the United States. What is so fucking hard about understanding that?!
19
#14,
Those five points are part of Rick Warren's belief system. This is what he believes.
You have another set of beliefs.
I respect both, although I probably have a lot more in common with you, politically and culturally.
To give you some perspective, I lived in a neighborhood with a lot of Muslim immigrants with fundamentalist views for several years. They did not have a problem with me, nor I with them, even though we disagreed on some serious matters. We were good neighbors, and found points on which we could agree.
This is how you strengthen a civil society. If I had called out my neighbors as misogynistic, anti-semitic homophobes (and brother, did I hear some doozy conspiracy theories from them over the years), it wouldn't have gotten any of us anywhere.
I feel a bit ridiculous having to point this out. I worry that the internet is providing a place for us to corral hatred toward the "other" - whether that be gays or evangelists.
Stop the cycle of hate. Reach out.
Those five points are part of Rick Warren's belief system. This is what he believes.
You have another set of beliefs.
I respect both, although I probably have a lot more in common with you, politically and culturally.
To give you some perspective, I lived in a neighborhood with a lot of Muslim immigrants with fundamentalist views for several years. They did not have a problem with me, nor I with them, even though we disagreed on some serious matters. We were good neighbors, and found points on which we could agree.
This is how you strengthen a civil society. If I had called out my neighbors as misogynistic, anti-semitic homophobes (and brother, did I hear some doozy conspiracy theories from them over the years), it wouldn't have gotten any of us anywhere.
I feel a bit ridiculous having to point this out. I worry that the internet is providing a place for us to corral hatred toward the "other" - whether that be gays or evangelists.
Stop the cycle of hate. Reach out.
20
Per until.org, 74% of the 42 million people living with HIV/AIDS live in sub-saharan Africa. So that's 31 million Africans with HIV/AIDS.
Pinning down the gay population of the U.S. is pretty hard to do, but the HRC put it at around 5%. Erring on the side of caution and going with a full "traditional" 10% of the U.S. population...That's 30 million gays in the U.S.
So what's more important, gay marriage or AIDS in Africa?
Trick fucking question. They aren't either/or propositions.
We should be fighting for civil rights and against bigotry in the U.S., we should be fighting for effective AIDS prevention and research in Africa, the U.S., and the rest of the world.
If a couple of assholes support one cause, but not the other, we can and should call them on it. But it doesn't mean the cause itself is lesser, or worthless because some of the people working for it are dicks.
Pinning down the gay population of the U.S. is pretty hard to do, but the HRC put it at around 5%. Erring on the side of caution and going with a full "traditional" 10% of the U.S. population...That's 30 million gays in the U.S.
So what's more important, gay marriage or AIDS in Africa?
Trick fucking question. They aren't either/or propositions.
We should be fighting for civil rights and against bigotry in the U.S., we should be fighting for effective AIDS prevention and research in Africa, the U.S., and the rest of the world.
If a couple of assholes support one cause, but not the other, we can and should call them on it. But it doesn't mean the cause itself is lesser, or worthless because some of the people working for it are dicks.
21
Yes, and feh @16, you should also note that Warren's comments about equal rights are also included with his statements using the term "lifestyle" (implying choice) and his reluctance to flat-out state agreement to the idea of civil unions or domestic partnerships (in lieu of marriage). I guess we each see what we want to, huh feh?
22
Sidenote to my earlier post: "But we're fighting AIDS in Africa" absolutey does not give anti-gay bigots an out. Even worse, most of the AIDS prevention that the evangelicals support is more of the ever-so-effective abstinence education.
23
#21,
Mark, sure, everyone sees what they want to see. In Rashomon as it is in life.
I'm simply suggesting that the tactics already taken have failed.
They have failed with the christian community and the minority community.
You can continue to go on about what assholes they are, and it makes you feel better, maybe it makes you feel like your community is tighter. But it's not an approach that is WORKING. Ask yourself: why?
Maybe reaching out, letting them get to know you as a person instead of a label is a way forward.
It's gotta beat what you've been doing until now.
Mark, sure, everyone sees what they want to see. In Rashomon as it is in life.
I'm simply suggesting that the tactics already taken have failed.
They have failed with the christian community and the minority community.
You can continue to go on about what assholes they are, and it makes you feel better, maybe it makes you feel like your community is tighter. But it's not an approach that is WORKING. Ask yourself: why?
Maybe reaching out, letting them get to know you as a person instead of a label is a way forward.
It's gotta beat what you've been doing until now.
24
@13, "I don't know anyone, of any political stripe, who is "promoting" AIDS."
Uh, the pope promoted AIDS by telling Africans to NOT wear condoms (to be fair, he was promoting abstinence), but the side-effect was more AIDS.
Uh, the pope promoted AIDS by telling Africans to NOT wear condoms (to be fair, he was promoting abstinence), but the side-effect was more AIDS.
25
@2feh,
Another good insight. It is good to examine the whole picture. As awful as this sounds and after having lived in Africa, many Africans find the gay lifestyle and gay marriage at least a "sexual luxury" if not unacceptable considering their own plight. Granted, it may come from ignorance or misinformation but huge numbers of people believe that. Yes, I believe that many people in the developing world find gay (especially male) sex repellent. Consider that NY Times piece on the young gay male from Senegal in NYC. He was hounded and threatened by mostly African immigrants when he came out!
Many Africans believe that we have "luxuries" (including sexual "rights") while they need just "basics" (including health care especially AIDS interventions). They just see us as overindulgent. One time when I was at post, an African (I lived in Cameroon) asked why I was feeding a dog. I said "because it's hungry". He said "well, so am I and my brothers. Shouldn't that food go to us". Dogs appear very emaciated in Africa. Critters are low on the totem pole of priorities.
Another good insight. It is good to examine the whole picture. As awful as this sounds and after having lived in Africa, many Africans find the gay lifestyle and gay marriage at least a "sexual luxury" if not unacceptable considering their own plight. Granted, it may come from ignorance or misinformation but huge numbers of people believe that. Yes, I believe that many people in the developing world find gay (especially male) sex repellent. Consider that NY Times piece on the young gay male from Senegal in NYC. He was hounded and threatened by mostly African immigrants when he came out!
Many Africans believe that we have "luxuries" (including sexual "rights") while they need just "basics" (including health care especially AIDS interventions). They just see us as overindulgent. One time when I was at post, an African (I lived in Cameroon) asked why I was feeding a dog. I said "because it's hungry". He said "well, so am I and my brothers. Shouldn't that food go to us". Dogs appear very emaciated in Africa. Critters are low on the totem pole of priorities.
26
Dear Feh.
I am not aware of Rick Warren's support for equal rights. I'm very aware of his crusade against equal rights. If you can bring this interview to our attention, I'd appreciate it.
And evangelicals promote AIDS when they promote homophobia and fight sex education.
I am not aware of Rick Warren's support for equal rights. I'm very aware of his crusade against equal rights. If you can bring this interview to our attention, I'd appreciate it.
And evangelicals promote AIDS when they promote homophobia and fight sex education.
27
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0FHg_mbB…
In this video, RW answers the question:
Which is worse, gay marriage or divorce.
He says: no-brainer, it's divorce.
He says: We always like to talk about other people rather than ourselves. We'd rather talk about drug use than about being overweight. It's saying: my sins are perfectly acceptable, your sins are evil.
He says he supports full equal rights for everybody in America. What about partnership benefits? "No problem with me."
His problem is semantic.
He says a lot of things in here that you and I will disagree with.
I repeat:
He says a lot of things in here that you and I will disagree with.
I disagree with fundamentalists on most things. I even, if you will, disagree with liberal fundamentalists. That is, if you don't agree 100 percent with my pc agenda, I'm not playing with you.
It is shooting ourselves in the foot to shun someone who gives us ways to work with the other side.
We need them as much as they need us, and in this economy, with this debt level, that's a big mutual need, whether you're yet aware of it or not.
Don't forget the amount of flack RW is taking from the right for even doing this invocation. And that, to me, is a great indication of compromise ON BOTH SIDES, which we need.
In this video, RW answers the question:
Which is worse, gay marriage or divorce.
He says: no-brainer, it's divorce.
He says: We always like to talk about other people rather than ourselves. We'd rather talk about drug use than about being overweight. It's saying: my sins are perfectly acceptable, your sins are evil.
He says he supports full equal rights for everybody in America. What about partnership benefits? "No problem with me."
His problem is semantic.
He says a lot of things in here that you and I will disagree with.
I repeat:
He says a lot of things in here that you and I will disagree with.
I disagree with fundamentalists on most things. I even, if you will, disagree with liberal fundamentalists. That is, if you don't agree 100 percent with my pc agenda, I'm not playing with you.
It is shooting ourselves in the foot to shun someone who gives us ways to work with the other side.
We need them as much as they need us, and in this economy, with this debt level, that's a big mutual need, whether you're yet aware of it or not.
Don't forget the amount of flack RW is taking from the right for even doing this invocation. And that, to me, is a great indication of compromise ON BOTH SIDES, which we need.
28
i really hate hearing people cite the P.E.A.C.E. plan as proof that warren is progressive.
when you name egocentric leadership as one of the five "global goliaths" you're trying to fight, and then give the first international peace medal to BUSH, that's not progressive. that's deluded.
http://thinkprogress.org/2008/12/01/bush…
when you name egocentric leadership as one of the five "global goliaths" you're trying to fight, and then give the first international peace medal to BUSH, that's not progressive. that's deluded.
http://thinkprogress.org/2008/12/01/bush…
29
I don't know, Feh. I think our approach IS working, and we don't really need people like Warren. Look at how far we've come in the last twenty years. We've been CRUSHING the Christian opposition to homosexuality. Yes, we've had some very painful losses recently, but if you look at the big picture their numbers are falling fast. They are losing, we are winning. And all without the kind of "dialogue" with fundamentalists that you recommend.
Compromise and being civil are matters of degree. Some people are worth the effort, and some just aren't - Warren and his ilk fall in that latter group. I would much rather wait a few more years and see the look of crestfallen disappointment on his face when he realizes his view and culture are gradually dying than debase myself by reaching out to him now. I will only grovel when I have no choice, and right now I have one.
Compromise and being civil are matters of degree. Some people are worth the effort, and some just aren't - Warren and his ilk fall in that latter group. I would much rather wait a few more years and see the look of crestfallen disappointment on his face when he realizes his view and culture are gradually dying than debase myself by reaching out to him now. I will only grovel when I have no choice, and right now I have one.
30
Yeek,
I hear you. I really do.
But I must also caution you to forces beyond the control of both yourself and Rick Warren.
The gains we have made in the last twenty and thirty and thirty-five years have come with a cost. More importantly, they also came during a time of great economic opportunity in this country, whether it seemed like it or not.
You need to make the connection between the economy and fundamentalism. Worse economy = stronger religious fundamentalism.
The fact that we are now in hock up to and above our eyeballs to foreign investors is going to make the current economic crisis look like a walk in the park.
We have never had this level or this proportion of debt before. Even superstar foreign companies like Toyota are taking a hit. Things are not getting better soon, if they get better at all. We are in for a very long downturn, and that's the best case scenario.
The tougher things get, the more people will head to church. The Times has already covered record-breaking church attendance in the wake of the current economic crisis. And the economy is only falling farther.
Weak economy = greater fundamentalism. Look at the Arab countries as an example. Arab fundamentalists are not inherently assholes. They are merely responding to the market environment.
Think about it.
Our shared progress is likely not sustainable.
Think. Reach out. Make friends, not enemies. I don't disagree there hasn't been progress. I do disagree if you suggest it hasn't come at a cost. Nixon was the first to take advantage of the rift between progressives and people who otherwise would have been economic progressives, but were too rooted in the white southern churches.
From our perches on the West Coast, it is easy to overlook how far we can stumble.
Your comment here spoke volumes to me:
"I would much rather wait a few more years and see the look of crestfallen disappointment on his face when he realizes his view and culture are gradually dying than debase myself by reaching out to him now."
Deja vu. I well remember the certainty of my friends in California in the months before the 2004 election, and a series of emails that read, "Have no doubt, Bush is going down this fall." I knew, from talking with people beyond my immediate circle, that this was unlikely.
Four years later than the West Coast pronounced, Bush may be headed out. But the reality of Bush has not yet left and will return - the reality of dishonest government, of fundamentalism, of greater debt and economic disparity.
The economy is more integral to your civil rights and your survival than anyone is willing to consider.
Bubble, bubble.... it has burst, in some places faster and more painfully than on the West Coast.
More...
I hear you. I really do.
But I must also caution you to forces beyond the control of both yourself and Rick Warren.
The gains we have made in the last twenty and thirty and thirty-five years have come with a cost. More importantly, they also came during a time of great economic opportunity in this country, whether it seemed like it or not.
You need to make the connection between the economy and fundamentalism. Worse economy = stronger religious fundamentalism.
The fact that we are now in hock up to and above our eyeballs to foreign investors is going to make the current economic crisis look like a walk in the park.
We have never had this level or this proportion of debt before. Even superstar foreign companies like Toyota are taking a hit. Things are not getting better soon, if they get better at all. We are in for a very long downturn, and that's the best case scenario.
The tougher things get, the more people will head to church. The Times has already covered record-breaking church attendance in the wake of the current economic crisis. And the economy is only falling farther.
Weak economy = greater fundamentalism. Look at the Arab countries as an example. Arab fundamentalists are not inherently assholes. They are merely responding to the market environment.
Think about it.
Our shared progress is likely not sustainable.
Think. Reach out. Make friends, not enemies. I don't disagree there hasn't been progress. I do disagree if you suggest it hasn't come at a cost. Nixon was the first to take advantage of the rift between progressives and people who otherwise would have been economic progressives, but were too rooted in the white southern churches.
From our perches on the West Coast, it is easy to overlook how far we can stumble.
Your comment here spoke volumes to me:
"I would much rather wait a few more years and see the look of crestfallen disappointment on his face when he realizes his view and culture are gradually dying than debase myself by reaching out to him now."
Deja vu. I well remember the certainty of my friends in California in the months before the 2004 election, and a series of emails that read, "Have no doubt, Bush is going down this fall." I knew, from talking with people beyond my immediate circle, that this was unlikely.
Four years later than the West Coast pronounced, Bush may be headed out. But the reality of Bush has not yet left and will return - the reality of dishonest government, of fundamentalism, of greater debt and economic disparity.
The economy is more integral to your civil rights and your survival than anyone is willing to consider.
Bubble, bubble.... it has burst, in some places faster and more painfully than on the West Coast.
31
Another question:
Has anyone looked at the countries we're now in debt to, and what gay rights look like in those countries?
Top two countries we're now most in debt to:
1) Saudi Arabia
2) China.
#2 used to be Japan; four weeks ago, China surpassed Japan.
If you think we will not become more like the countries we owe money to, then you are not looking at the global history of national debt.
It may seem boring, but it is essential to understanding what is likely to occur.
While we have all been screaming about our individual rights, we have assigned away enormous power to countries that don't give a crap about individual rights for us, because they don't care about individual rights for their own people.
There is not a happy disconnect between debt and the rights of individuals. This is reality.
And if you dislike Rick Warren's work in Africa, oh baby, take a look at what China's been doing there lately.
Here's a clue: 1) buy up rights 2) colonize with no regard for Africans.
Now those are some human rights issues that my fellow liberals prefer to keep their heads in the sand over.
Especially since calling Rick Warren a fat stooge lets us ignore our own complicity in signing away power so we could buy Land Rovers and McMansions. Or, how we ignored the needs of Africans for generations. Whoops - turns out there are a lot of natural resources there that China will make use of. And unlike us, they have the cash to do so.
Real human rights issues loom. Rick Warren isn't actually an issue, except for your having made him so.
Has anyone looked at the countries we're now in debt to, and what gay rights look like in those countries?
Top two countries we're now most in debt to:
1) Saudi Arabia
2) China.
#2 used to be Japan; four weeks ago, China surpassed Japan.
If you think we will not become more like the countries we owe money to, then you are not looking at the global history of national debt.
It may seem boring, but it is essential to understanding what is likely to occur.
While we have all been screaming about our individual rights, we have assigned away enormous power to countries that don't give a crap about individual rights for us, because they don't care about individual rights for their own people.
There is not a happy disconnect between debt and the rights of individuals. This is reality.
And if you dislike Rick Warren's work in Africa, oh baby, take a look at what China's been doing there lately.
Here's a clue: 1) buy up rights 2) colonize with no regard for Africans.
Now those are some human rights issues that my fellow liberals prefer to keep their heads in the sand over.
Especially since calling Rick Warren a fat stooge lets us ignore our own complicity in signing away power so we could buy Land Rovers and McMansions. Or, how we ignored the needs of Africans for generations. Whoops - turns out there are a lot of natural resources there that China will make use of. And unlike us, they have the cash to do so.
Real human rights issues loom. Rick Warren isn't actually an issue, except for your having made him so.
32
Religion is the solution to nothing. Religion is the problem. Just look at the history of religion and you understand how ever greater numbers of Africans are being murdered by each other. I'd say murdering ethnic groups are responsible for most of the misery in Africa today, and religion only makes that worse. What they need is education and they won't get that from religion. Religion teaches ignorance and delusion.
33
Right, Vince.
So without religion, people would not go to war for territory and resources?
Then what was that cold war all about? Surely the USSR wasn't religious. They had eliminated the Russian Orthodox Church fairly viciously.
What was the Pelopponesian War about, if not about colonialism and superpower status?
Was the fighting between France and England about Catholicism vs. Anglicanism, or was it about power and territory and expansion?
Religion can serve as the catalyst, but we have easily found substitutes to incite people, like nationalism. Or an early "rational player" theory, as Athens promoted as an excuse to escalate war with Sparta. (not that Athens wasn't devout, but most accounts show that they were more concerned about maintaining their colonial hold over neighboring states, and their #1 status over Sparta.)
Of course religion is the solution to nothing. But that doesn't mean you can snap your fingers and fundamentalism will go away. The question is, with an almost certainty of rising religious fundamentalism, how do you make inroads with the fanatics? Because last time I checked, they had more guns and more bullets than us peace-loving liberals.
BTW, has anyone checked the level of gun and ammo sales recently?
So without religion, people would not go to war for territory and resources?
Then what was that cold war all about? Surely the USSR wasn't religious. They had eliminated the Russian Orthodox Church fairly viciously.
What was the Pelopponesian War about, if not about colonialism and superpower status?
Was the fighting between France and England about Catholicism vs. Anglicanism, or was it about power and territory and expansion?
Religion can serve as the catalyst, but we have easily found substitutes to incite people, like nationalism. Or an early "rational player" theory, as Athens promoted as an excuse to escalate war with Sparta. (not that Athens wasn't devout, but most accounts show that they were more concerned about maintaining their colonial hold over neighboring states, and their #1 status over Sparta.)
Of course religion is the solution to nothing. But that doesn't mean you can snap your fingers and fundamentalism will go away. The question is, with an almost certainty of rising religious fundamentalism, how do you make inroads with the fanatics? Because last time I checked, they had more guns and more bullets than us peace-loving liberals.
BTW, has anyone checked the level of gun and ammo sales recently?
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