Monday, December 22, 2008
Religion / Homo "Unrepentant" Gays Now Welcome At Saddleback Church?
Posted by Dan Savage on Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 2:44 PM
Is that what this means? Or are gays still banned from membership at Saddelback but the church is scrubbing their website of anti-gay rhetoric as part of Rick Warren's disagree-without-being-disagreeable offensive?
Or are we welcome at Saddelback if, like so many good Christian pastors, we do our gay shit on the down low?
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1
Gays not welcome in Fundamentalist Christian Church!? My God, you're kidding?! When did this start? Alert the media!!
Keep those cameras on Rick Warren, give him as much press and political attention as possible!? Heaven forbid he fall into obscurity like Anita Bryant, John Briggs, etc....
Keep those cameras on Rick Warren, give him as much press and political attention as possible!? Heaven forbid he fall into obscurity like Anita Bryant, John Briggs, etc....
2
On the plus side, this means that the backlash is having an effect on him (and hopefully Obama). Fear the liberal left, you tubby bitch.
3
Or, Hernandez, maybe by including people, you get cooperation?
Think about it.
If the backlash has any effect, it has to be initiated by an invitation to the table - which is the opposite of shunning everyone who doesn't agree with us 100%.
Think about it.
If the backlash has any effect, it has to be initiated by an invitation to the table - which is the opposite of shunning everyone who doesn't agree with us 100%.
4
I don't understand these calls for embracing Rick Warren and "opening a dialogue". WTF, did African-Americans open up a dialogue with David Duke because they had so much in common except for the little issue of race? I don't seem to remember Jewish groups reaching out to Tom Metzger and White Aryan Resistance so they could have friendly talks and get-togethers.
5
Well, "fear us, you tubby bitch" is obviously sarcastic, but I am happy that the outrage expressed by us on the left has at least given Warren pause moving forward.
He (Warren) needs to understand that Obama is inviting him to a table that already has gays, lesbians and liberals who don't agree with most of his views sitting at it. He needs to understand that his rhetoric regarding gay marriage, abortion rights and gender equality ain't gonna fly if he's truly interested in working with folks across the aisle.
He (Warren) needs to understand that Obama is inviting him to a table that already has gays, lesbians and liberals who don't agree with most of his views sitting at it. He needs to understand that his rhetoric regarding gay marriage, abortion rights and gender equality ain't gonna fly if he's truly interested in working with folks across the aisle.
6
I wish I could see it that way. What I see is that Obama and his guys just used us to get the fundies on board his agenda. All over the MSM the talking heads are congratulating Obama on standing up against the demands of gays, mostly they are giddy Obama has Barney Frank mad as it shows he's really more on the side of the religious right. It's as cynical a move as McCain's pick of Palin. I suspect bad karma will follow for the Obama team because surely Warren hasn't changed his mind about us getting equal civil rights, he just hid the real agenda by removing wording from his website.
7
Dear Dan: Apropos of everything, I thought you might like to know that everyone's favorite D-list patriot, Chuck Norris, has penned commentary at WND entitled "Jacking Jesus" (it's actually about the theft of baby Jesuses from nativity scenes around the country and how it's clearly a sign of liberal depravity). For reals.
8
acolyte,
something tells me that in between dan savage and chuck norris, there are actually people in the middle who would like to ensure that we have marriage equality, so that we can move forward with the much more pressing problems facing this country.
Please do not allow gay rights to be hijacked by a collective hissy fit.
Chuck Norris is a distraction. And very often, so is Dan Savage. They are also very good at ensuring their own publicity by picking fights with "ideological opponents."
Basta. Let's move on.
something tells me that in between dan savage and chuck norris, there are actually people in the middle who would like to ensure that we have marriage equality, so that we can move forward with the much more pressing problems facing this country.
Please do not allow gay rights to be hijacked by a collective hissy fit.
Chuck Norris is a distraction. And very often, so is Dan Savage. They are also very good at ensuring their own publicity by picking fights with "ideological opponents."
Basta. Let's move on.
9
Someone must have made this joke already, but doesn't "Saddleback" Church seem like something that would be on Brokeback Mountain?
10
hey feh, it's fine if you want to collaborate, and it's all good that you feel that being "inclusive" is the better way. But maybe you should be addressing that shit to the right, since they are the ones that are denying rights. This really isn't the time for the touchy feely blue dog dem"lets get behind the new leader rhetoric". It's time that we need to lead the leaders, and not let them compromise on rights issues with those who are never going to be anything but "disagreeable" as Warren and his minions are. They're not gonna give an inch and play nice until the law makes 'em. hell, probably not even then.
11
I bet the Rev has a scoreboard showing how many times his name appears in the press, mainstream and otherwise.
14
Flamingbanjo @12 - I agree it's a good thing.
This is how things change. One step at a time.
Just maybe Obama had this in mind from the beginning??
This is how things change. One step at a time.
Just maybe Obama had this in mind from the beginning??
15
You've got to admit, Dan, the issues around Obama's selection of Warren are complicated.
It certainly is maddening, especially after the passing of Prop 8. However, there isn't any practical consequence to having Warren at the ceremony. His role and the issues surrounding it are largely symbolic (unlike, for example, Prop 8, which directly impacts civil liberties).
On the other hand, Obama's strategy of engaging the religious right might pay off. The appointment has forced Warren to examine his beliefs about gays much more deeply than ever before. He has been forced to listen to the other side tear apart his flimsy reasoning. He has definitely felt some heat. And now they've removed the text from their web site banning gays.
As good as it feels, trying to coerce the religious right with the proverbial stick will only strenghten their resolve and increase their turnout rate on election day. Perhaps offering a symbolic carrot here and there will soften them a bit, in which case Obama would be negligent not to try it.
It certainly is maddening, especially after the passing of Prop 8. However, there isn't any practical consequence to having Warren at the ceremony. His role and the issues surrounding it are largely symbolic (unlike, for example, Prop 8, which directly impacts civil liberties).
On the other hand, Obama's strategy of engaging the religious right might pay off. The appointment has forced Warren to examine his beliefs about gays much more deeply than ever before. He has been forced to listen to the other side tear apart his flimsy reasoning. He has definitely felt some heat. And now they've removed the text from their web site banning gays.
As good as it feels, trying to coerce the religious right with the proverbial stick will only strenghten their resolve and increase their turnout rate on election day. Perhaps offering a symbolic carrot here and there will soften them a bit, in which case Obama would be negligent not to try it.
16
Seandr, My problem with that is that the rr will demand inaction on our issues, DADT, DOMA etc as the carrot. Beleive me if Obama goes anywhere near these issues the rr will turn and run. Now they will go along with his agenda on other issues like global warming/energy policy but gay/stem cell/reproductive rights issues no way. So to get them along on the global warming Obama has to jettison the others. Steep price to pay for a few fundy votes.
17
jersey-
it is the other way around.
gay marriage is a steep price to pay for action on global warming, which is actually a life-or-death issue.
Please.
Let's all get some perspective.
I fear that the gay rights movement has been hijacked by the delusional "marriage-is-a-social-good" movement, which is, ironically, a very conservative position.
it is the other way around.
gay marriage is a steep price to pay for action on global warming, which is actually a life-or-death issue.
Please.
Let's all get some perspective.
I fear that the gay rights movement has been hijacked by the delusional "marriage-is-a-social-good" movement, which is, ironically, a very conservative position.
18
@15:
"On the other hand, Obama's strategy of engaging the religious right might pay off"
it won't. not in the ways those concerned about equal rights want it to.
"The appointment has forced Warren to examine his beliefs about gays much more deeply than ever before. He has been forced to listen to the other side tear apart his flimsy reasoning. He has definitely felt some heat. And now they've removed the text from their web site banning gays."
sure, I really bet they've had a real change of heart about the abomination in the eyes of god thing. They'll forsake the ingrained traditions of over 2500 years of bigotry cause the homos decided to sit down and play nice for a while. yeah, thats how they do things... being reasonable is a fundamental tenet of monotheistic religion, right?
As good as it feels, trying to coerce the religious right with the proverbial stick will only strenghten their resolve and increase their turnout rate on election day.
of course they're gonna get more entrenched & radical as their numbers shrink and they start to lose influence, thats some poly-sci 101, but that does not mean that as a society we bow down to their whims, it means they're scared that their bigoted ideas are going to be relegated to the dust bin of history, where they belong.
"On the other hand, Obama's strategy of engaging the religious right might pay off"
it won't. not in the ways those concerned about equal rights want it to.
"The appointment has forced Warren to examine his beliefs about gays much more deeply than ever before. He has been forced to listen to the other side tear apart his flimsy reasoning. He has definitely felt some heat. And now they've removed the text from their web site banning gays."
sure, I really bet they've had a real change of heart about the abomination in the eyes of god thing. They'll forsake the ingrained traditions of over 2500 years of bigotry cause the homos decided to sit down and play nice for a while. yeah, thats how they do things... being reasonable is a fundamental tenet of monotheistic religion, right?
As good as it feels, trying to coerce the religious right with the proverbial stick will only strenghten their resolve and increase their turnout rate on election day.
of course they're gonna get more entrenched & radical as their numbers shrink and they start to lose influence, thats some poly-sci 101, but that does not mean that as a society we bow down to their whims, it means they're scared that their bigoted ideas are going to be relegated to the dust bin of history, where they belong.
19
@16: Gotta agree with 17. I was right there marching in the streets for the right of gays to marry, but global warming affects the future of all human life on Earth. So I'm unwilling to wait another 30 years while both sides keep fighting this Culture War that's claimed the entirety of the public debate since the 60's. We simply don't have time.
Similarly, the economy affects my continued ability to have food to eat and a roof over my head. This makes economic issues something of a priority for me.
If large segments of the Religious Right can be brought on board to address Climate Change and some of the Social Justice issues surrounding poverty in America, that would be a historic development.
Similarly, the economy affects my continued ability to have food to eat and a roof over my head. This makes economic issues something of a priority for me.
If large segments of the Religious Right can be brought on board to address Climate Change and some of the Social Justice issues surrounding poverty in America, that would be a historic development.
20
#16,
As stated with admittedly nauseating regularity, I voted no on 8 - I'm on your side.
But I have my limits.
Trust me, as a so-called "minority", I have a lot of reservations about the use and abuse of identity politics.
I think the gay rights movement, like the black power movement decades ago, has been hijacked by people who live in an echo chamber.
And who profit off of the culture war.
This makes the people they supposedly represent more vulnerable in an economic downturn than ever before. Meanwhile, by pointing the finger outward instead of inward, they miss the chance to build strength within the community. Gay rights proponents lost, and I mean it was a waste of, upwards of $38 million fighting Prop 8.
That's money that should have gone to AIDS prevention and treatment within the gay community. Instead, it went to picking a fight that was totally unnecessary if we had just moved for civil unions.
I do not appreciate having the inauguration hijacked by single-issue people over a fat, goofy preacher who's been invited not because Obama particularly agrees with him, but because Obama has enough common sense to realize he needs to build bridges because the challenges facing us are huge right now.
How obvious is it that not everything is about gay marriage right now? For most of us, political leadership has never been about marriage, period, gay or straight. It should be about life-or-death, bread-and-butter issues.
I will always support you for marriage equality. I will support you even more for basic civil rights like job protection and partnership benefits. But do not expect me not to criticize you when I fear you are jeopardizing our chance to get something done in this administration - things that actually are critical for our economic and physical survival on this planet.
More...
As stated with admittedly nauseating regularity, I voted no on 8 - I'm on your side.
But I have my limits.
Trust me, as a so-called "minority", I have a lot of reservations about the use and abuse of identity politics.
I think the gay rights movement, like the black power movement decades ago, has been hijacked by people who live in an echo chamber.
And who profit off of the culture war.
This makes the people they supposedly represent more vulnerable in an economic downturn than ever before. Meanwhile, by pointing the finger outward instead of inward, they miss the chance to build strength within the community. Gay rights proponents lost, and I mean it was a waste of, upwards of $38 million fighting Prop 8.
That's money that should have gone to AIDS prevention and treatment within the gay community. Instead, it went to picking a fight that was totally unnecessary if we had just moved for civil unions.
I do not appreciate having the inauguration hijacked by single-issue people over a fat, goofy preacher who's been invited not because Obama particularly agrees with him, but because Obama has enough common sense to realize he needs to build bridges because the challenges facing us are huge right now.
How obvious is it that not everything is about gay marriage right now? For most of us, political leadership has never been about marriage, period, gay or straight. It should be about life-or-death, bread-and-butter issues.
I will always support you for marriage equality. I will support you even more for basic civil rights like job protection and partnership benefits. But do not expect me not to criticize you when I fear you are jeopardizing our chance to get something done in this administration - things that actually are critical for our economic and physical survival on this planet.
21
@ 20,
holy hell! thats a lot of spewing, to merely explain that you are a selfish ass that likes to profess tolerance, but only up to a point. good on ya then! smiley face smooch.
holy hell! thats a lot of spewing, to merely explain that you are a selfish ass that likes to profess tolerance, but only up to a point. good on ya then! smiley face smooch.
22
#21,
What's more selfish, insisting gay marriage is more important than addressing the economy and global warming? Or acknowledging that life-or-death issues take priority?
But you're right, it was long. (Although I think you could refrain from calling others an "ass.")
Let me cut that down for you:
"I both support you politically, AND I criticize your obsessive focus on Rick Warren, when the country is facing two wars and an economic crisis that may dwarf the Great Depression of the 1930's. Your insistence that people who support you must do so to your exact identity-politics specifications is not only highly unrealistic, it is counterproductive toward your stated goals as it alienates those supporters. It is also eerily reminiscent of W's 'with us or against us' line, which harmed everyone, not just Americans."
What's more selfish, insisting gay marriage is more important than addressing the economy and global warming? Or acknowledging that life-or-death issues take priority?
But you're right, it was long. (Although I think you could refrain from calling others an "ass.")
Let me cut that down for you:
"I both support you politically, AND I criticize your obsessive focus on Rick Warren, when the country is facing two wars and an economic crisis that may dwarf the Great Depression of the 1930's. Your insistence that people who support you must do so to your exact identity-politics specifications is not only highly unrealistic, it is counterproductive toward your stated goals as it alienates those supporters. It is also eerily reminiscent of W's 'with us or against us' line, which harmed everyone, not just Americans."
23
I think your heterophobic. Bounce Warren because he is a Christian fanatic period.
How about myself ,a racist but an atheist. I have dialogued with Black individuals and groups. I have talked to many homosexuals and don't feel threatened but dont squeal because I beleive in hetero life. I am pretty leftist but also Racist.
Why does everyone work so hard at being a victim? Only weak people cling to PC.
Tom Metzger
How about myself ,a racist but an atheist. I have dialogued with Black individuals and groups. I have talked to many homosexuals and don't feel threatened but dont squeal because I beleive in hetero life. I am pretty leftist but also Racist.
Why does everyone work so hard at being a victim? Only weak people cling to PC.
Tom Metzger
24
Still you don't get it, but that's o.k. Many people don't, or are even much less open than you.
Civil/human/equal rights are the building block and the touchstone on which just and right policies and societies are built. And it's not like we can't make them a first priority and work on those other issues concurrently, we can. It would be much easier for the rest of the issues to be worked out, cause we're doing right by the constitution, and all of ourselves.
Sorry about the ass part. But, it's not some pie to be divided up. We can have more than one agenda at a time, to be taken care of. If the basic ones are not in order how can we expect any other to follow suit?
Civil/human/equal rights are the building block and the touchstone on which just and right policies and societies are built. And it's not like we can't make them a first priority and work on those other issues concurrently, we can. It would be much easier for the rest of the issues to be worked out, cause we're doing right by the constitution, and all of ourselves.
Sorry about the ass part. But, it's not some pie to be divided up. We can have more than one agenda at a time, to be taken care of. If the basic ones are not in order how can we expect any other to follow suit?
25
No the point about the global warming/energy policy and even stem cell research is that we don't even need the fundies to go along with them to get them passed. These things passed with resounding majorities but Bush vetoed in the past. We don't need to pander to those fuckwads but I fear Obama is going to end up neutered because he's trying to appease them. I just don't get it.
26
Ok, Obama won't be neutered, he's straight and happily married. I'll be the one neutered, never being able to marry my partner of 8 years unless we pack it up and move elsewhere.
27
thanks 25:
Yeay!!! oh Yeay!! lets abandon the traditions of science and reason for the constituency of myth and intolerance... boy we're forward thinking now!
Yeay!!! oh Yeay!! lets abandon the traditions of science and reason for the constituency of myth and intolerance... boy we're forward thinking now!
29
A few points.
1) Global warming, the economy, and ending the war ARE gay issues. As it turns out, gay people do in fact breath air, pay rent, and serve in/pay for the Iraq war.
2) Don't underestimate the power of dialog. Within any evangelical congregation, you'll find both hardened conservatives who are totally unreachable, and people who are there because their spouse or parents are hardened conservatives. The latter group can be persuaded, but if all you have for them are stereotypes and insults, they'll just become hardened conservatives.
3) Evangelicals may not respond to reason, but like most members of our species, they will respond to self interest and social pressure. If Rick Warren thought that cutting the homophobia would increase his income and esteem, he would cut the homophobia.
1) Global warming, the economy, and ending the war ARE gay issues. As it turns out, gay people do in fact breath air, pay rent, and serve in/pay for the Iraq war.
2) Don't underestimate the power of dialog. Within any evangelical congregation, you'll find both hardened conservatives who are totally unreachable, and people who are there because their spouse or parents are hardened conservatives. The latter group can be persuaded, but if all you have for them are stereotypes and insults, they'll just become hardened conservatives.
3) Evangelicals may not respond to reason, but like most members of our species, they will respond to self interest and social pressure. If Rick Warren thought that cutting the homophobia would increase his income and esteem, he would cut the homophobia.
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