Saturday, December 20, 2008
Homo God Bless Rachel Maddow
Posted by Dan Savage on Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 5:02 PM
Props to Maddow for hammering away at this—and for suggesting that Obama could drop Warren. But... oh... my... gawd. The look on Anne Curry's face when Rick Warren says he's inclined to have sex with every beautiful woman he sees. Curry, a beautiful woman, is very clearly tormented by some unwelcome mental images at that moment. Priceless. And I love how Warren equates a heterosexual man resisting the urge to jump every beautiful woman he sees with a homosexual man's responsibility to refrain from all intimate contact for life. I don't know how that qualifies as "delayed gratification"—not unless gay celibates are rewarded with 70 virgins when they go to paradise.
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2
Rachel's doing a great job covering this, bless her heart. John Aravosis at Americablog has been doing a good job as well (he's dug up some stuff like his hagiography of Archbishop Peter Akinola - a great Christian who is implicated in the massacre of over 600 Muslims four years ago), and I'd love to hear about other news sources that are taking this issue head on.
3
I really do think Warren is another in a long line of closet evangelist gay haters.
He just sounds so phony talking about his 'heterosexuality' ...and no straight guys I know that are secure in their own sexuality feel a need to continually denigrate gays.
He just sounds so phony talking about his 'heterosexuality' ...and no straight guys I know that are secure in their own sexuality feel a need to continually denigrate gays.
4
My wife and I just e-mailed Barack Obama to ask him to invite Episcopal Bishop Gene Robinson or some other prominent Gay religious leader to give an inaugural invocation. I encourage others to make similar requests.
P Kropotkin
P Kropotkin
5
It's interesting that Maddow is suddenly interested in this issue considering that she flat-out refused to challenge Huckabee on it.
6
Now now now...I was told on Slog by many many people that us little faggots shouldn't get our panties in an uproar over all of this. We should shut up and just be damn glad we even got a place near the bus of the Obama Administration.
Remember how the big tarnish on FDR was the internment camps? Well, we know what the tarnish is for Barack Obama: history will call him a closeted homophobic black man.
BTW, I thought he would appoint a gay or lesbian to his administration. You know, to something more than the Presidental Hair Stylist.
Remember how the big tarnish on FDR was the internment camps? Well, we know what the tarnish is for Barack Obama: history will call him a closeted homophobic black man.
BTW, I thought he would appoint a gay or lesbian to his administration. You know, to something more than the Presidental Hair Stylist.
7
@2: Maybe she has different expectations for Obama as opposed to Huckabee? Not to mention that the latter isn't the President-Elect.
8
It is a really really poor idea to push this and raise enough heat to make Obama rescind the invitation.
It has nothing to do with the fact that Warren is a creep, he is.
However if homosexuals generate enough heat to force Obama to back down:
1- It will be another DADT; a new Democratic Administration stumbling and losing momentum over a gay issue.
2- Obama will be seen by the 99.5% of America that doesn't feel as strongly about this issue as Maddow and Savage as having to back down to gays and will be weakened politically for it. It will be the first vulnerability and defeat for a President who seemed to have the mojo but gee, evidently doesn't. Don't see how that helps gays.
3- The people who like Warren (this Republican doesn't know any but there must be some or else Obama wouldn't have invited the guy) will be livid. Had Obama not invited the guy his (Warren's) fans would not have ever noticed or cared because it was for sure unexpected but now to uninvite him would really tick a lot of people off (at gays and) at Obama. It is surely going to steam Obama big time if it blows up in his face that way and he will be steamed at the homosexuals. You may not mind pissing Warrens people off but is it really in your interest to piss off Obama?
It really is time for the head to take over and control the temper, folks.
Sure you have the power to make Obama dump Warren, and it would feel great to do it, but the itchy redness and discharge that will follow that good time won't go away soon.
It has nothing to do with the fact that Warren is a creep, he is.
However if homosexuals generate enough heat to force Obama to back down:
1- It will be another DADT; a new Democratic Administration stumbling and losing momentum over a gay issue.
2- Obama will be seen by the 99.5% of America that doesn't feel as strongly about this issue as Maddow and Savage as having to back down to gays and will be weakened politically for it. It will be the first vulnerability and defeat for a President who seemed to have the mojo but gee, evidently doesn't. Don't see how that helps gays.
3- The people who like Warren (this Republican doesn't know any but there must be some or else Obama wouldn't have invited the guy) will be livid. Had Obama not invited the guy his (Warren's) fans would not have ever noticed or cared because it was for sure unexpected but now to uninvite him would really tick a lot of people off (at gays and) at Obama. It is surely going to steam Obama big time if it blows up in his face that way and he will be steamed at the homosexuals. You may not mind pissing Warrens people off but is it really in your interest to piss off Obama?
It really is time for the head to take over and control the temper, folks.
Sure you have the power to make Obama dump Warren, and it would feel great to do it, but the itchy redness and discharge that will follow that good time won't go away soon.
9
@4
That will go over well in the half of the country that has already banned gay marriage by 75-80% margins.
Obama could just blow his brains out now and get it over with quicker rather than linger for 4 years as a crippled impotent tool of the militant gay lobby.
That will go over well in the half of the country that has already banned gay marriage by 75-80% margins.
Obama could just blow his brains out now and get it over with quicker rather than linger for 4 years as a crippled impotent tool of the militant gay lobby.
10
Ok, we get it. Move on, get over it. I'm sorry but gays should be trying to sway people who are bigots, but instead all you do is bitch and quite frankly you sound really gay.
11
What are the ways we can persuade people to stop counting the number of out gays in the U.S. versus the number of out born-agains?
12
Obama could see this as a 'Sister SoulJa' issue; the more gays squeal over it the more moderates and conservatives see him as a brave stand-up guy.
Obama may feel that whatever the degree of heat is raised will bring greater benefit (in the 55% of Americans that credit him for standing up to the pressure vs the 2% who feel passionate about getting Warren out) than harm.
Obama may feel that whatever the degree of heat is raised will bring greater benefit (in the 55% of Americans that credit him for standing up to the pressure vs the 2% who feel passionate about getting Warren out) than harm.
13
@6: He has appointed an out lesbian to his administration. Nancy Sutley has been appointed chair of the White House Council on Environmental Quality.
14
Obama may even see this as a 'air controller strike' moment.
Just like Reagan established his chops by standing up to and crushing the air controllers union Obama may feel that totally stiffing gays over Warren will establish him in the eyes of 2/3 of the country as tough, centrist, morale etc etc. In that case the more gays squeal the more payoff for Obama.
The more I think about it the more brilliant I realize this guy is!
Do gays really want to be roadkill before the new administration is even sworn in??
(ps- Maddow is one smug smarmy bitch. With friends like that who needs enemies?)
Just like Reagan established his chops by standing up to and crushing the air controllers union Obama may feel that totally stiffing gays over Warren will establish him in the eyes of 2/3 of the country as tough, centrist, morale etc etc. In that case the more gays squeal the more payoff for Obama.
The more I think about it the more brilliant I realize this guy is!
Do gays really want to be roadkill before the new administration is even sworn in??
(ps- Maddow is one smug smarmy bitch. With friends like that who needs enemies?)
15
Mr. Ricky is a big snake oil salesperson and a sexist pig asshole. So he has a biological urge to have sex w/every beautiful woman he sees does he? What about all the ugly women he sees? We are spared apparently. He is a poorly educated nobody, a publicity seeker and fraud. Luckily invokators only get a short turn at the microphone. Maybe he'll get smote. Organized religion is a special brand of mental illness.
16
"Obama is redefining politics not by driving left or right, but by redefining patriotism. What does it mean to love your country?
To be convinced you know what's right and therefore to sneer at those who disagree with you? Or does loving your country in practice mean finding what's best in all your fellow citizens?
Obama's got an answer to that question. It's where hope comes from.
And if you don't know that, if you still only look through the lens of left and right, blue and red, you really have not been listening."
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story…
author: http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/people/dwei…
To be convinced you know what's right and therefore to sneer at those who disagree with you? Or does loving your country in practice mean finding what's best in all your fellow citizens?
Obama's got an answer to that question. It's where hope comes from.
And if you don't know that, if you still only look through the lens of left and right, blue and red, you really have not been listening."
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story…
author: http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/people/dwei…
17
Warren didn't say that there's no difference between gay relationships and incest or child abuse. He said none of them can form the basis of a marriage. There is a difference. One is a a point of view about marriage, and the other is really a point of view about gays.
When our spokesgays get that difference, we'll be more effective.
When our spokesgays get that difference, we'll be more effective.
18
On the one hand, this guy gets my hackles up! As the only het-kid out of four, I desire equal rights with an intense fire, and I have such little patience for such ignorance and bigotry.
By the same token, tolerance goes both ways. We demand tolerance from people for our differing views, yet we shut out those with differing views? We are in fact the ones who need to make the first steps to be tolerant of what we perceive as their ignorance. I don't think Obama should rescind his invitation. I think it is a gesture of tolerance, and an example to the world.
By the same token, tolerance goes both ways. We demand tolerance from people for our differing views, yet we shut out those with differing views? We are in fact the ones who need to make the first steps to be tolerant of what we perceive as their ignorance. I don't think Obama should rescind his invitation. I think it is a gesture of tolerance, and an example to the world.
19
Does Maddow really want to make Obama back down now and make the inauguration be about him giving in?
Does she think that is the way Obama wants to kick off his administration?
I think this would be like cutting off the nose and gouging both eyes out to spite the face.
Does she think that is the way Obama wants to kick off his administration?
I think this would be like cutting off the nose and gouging both eyes out to spite the face.
20
Oh, and Maddow just put together a real hit piece on Obama. She suggests that Obama's professed ignorance about Wright was largely bullshit. If that's true, it and people still care about Wright, it could get picked up by wingnuts to really damage Obama.
So thanks Maddow. Obama picks Warren, and you use it as an excuse to put Wright's face on the TV and talk about Obama's relationship with Wright. Way to fuck the guy over way out of proportion.
So thanks Maddow. Obama picks Warren, and you use it as an excuse to put Wright's face on the TV and talk about Obama's relationship with Wright. Way to fuck the guy over way out of proportion.
21
"Rick Warren says he's inclined to have sex with every beautiful woman he sees."
Never have I been more relieved to be homelier than a mud fence.
Never have I been more relieved to be homelier than a mud fence.
22
Karl Rove (hee, hee, hee BTW) @ 14,
Crushing the air controllers union and deregulation of the airlines was moronic. As moronic as deregulation of the financial and real estate markets.
Crushing the air controllers union and deregulation of the airlines was moronic. As moronic as deregulation of the financial and real estate markets.
24
My big question is: why Warren? There are thousands of high-profile pastors in the country that supported the Obama administration. Why not choose one of them? Someone safe, someone neutral. I'm a bit torn, half of me thinks that this is indeed a "whatever, Warren's a news-maker, the gays can take the hit to their pride" or "I've gotta make it clear that I can be as red as anyone". The world may never know...
Oh, and Dan, 70 virgins is nice, but one sexy, dirty bastard is better.
Oh, and Dan, 70 virgins is nice, but one sexy, dirty bastard is better.
25
@22
Those are two separate issues, but even if you are right the strike was seen as a political victory for Reagan.
I think it is indisputable that inviting Warren was 'wrong', it could, however, turn out to be politically astute.
Those are two separate issues, but even if you are right the strike was seen as a political victory for Reagan.
I think it is indisputable that inviting Warren was 'wrong', it could, however, turn out to be politically astute.
26
Here's something you could do...tell Rick Warren that every speaker at the Inauguration gets a free cruise ticket to a tropical destination.
Then hand him a boarding pass to one of these:
http://www.atlantisevents.com/cruises_20…
Then hand him a boarding pass to one of these:
http://www.atlantisevents.com/cruises_20…
27
Besides all the other shit Warren said, what truly startled me was when he said that his "gay friends" were trying to justify having sex with multiple partners, and how Warren thought that was wrong. Waren is basically saying that gays are incapable of being monogamous. (Unfortunately Dan has said similar things right here in the Slog.)
Rachel is right. It is a lose-lose situation for Obama because he already tried justifying Warren's inclusion and Obama cannot plead ignorance about Warren's beliefs.
The only way I see that Obama can dig himself out of this mess is, in his inaugural speech, repudiate Warren and his beliefs and pledge to guarantee everyone equal rights under the law regardless of their gender preferences.
Rachel is right. It is a lose-lose situation for Obama because he already tried justifying Warren's inclusion and Obama cannot plead ignorance about Warren's beliefs.
The only way I see that Obama can dig himself out of this mess is, in his inaugural speech, repudiate Warren and his beliefs and pledge to guarantee everyone equal rights under the law regardless of their gender preferences.
28
"Well, we know what the tarnish is for Barack Obama: history will call him a closeted homophobic black man."
Thanks for this info. Can you tell us all what else you learned on your trip to the future? I know there are rules about disturbing the timeline and all, but a few hints won't hurt. Also, what are the lotto numbers going to be next week?
Thanks for this info. Can you tell us all what else you learned on your trip to the future? I know there are rules about disturbing the timeline and all, but a few hints won't hurt. Also, what are the lotto numbers going to be next week?
29
Let's remember media people, incl. Dan and Rachel MARKET themselves a great deal.
Obama will not - can not back down. To do so because of a group now famed for anger who can't win elections - would make him the political laughing stock of the world.
California cost us a great deal at the the moment and now is costing us more.
Mr Warren was on the winning side in Calif. - spoke during the campaign representing Evangelicals, far more numerous that Mormons in California and in greater America..
He won, we loose. And I am sure the Clinton people have told him the saga of how Bill got creamed on gay issues in his first year. He did. And Obama will not repeat that mistake.
There is much at stake in this election - I think our turn will come in the second term, not much before. One issue, ENDA might get passed in the second session of congress. Might, voters are OK with ENDA.
Time to get smart, quit whining and begin to win our political battles on the ground. Or loose by just handfuls of votes. California will haunt us for a generation.
Another thought - by telling us NO, Obama tells anyone who feels he is in their pocket NO ... good start to the hard road when all comers want a piece of you for their agenda.
Karl Rove, am I right?
Yesterday, our VP, JoeBiden, bright guy, let slip that the GREAT DEPRESSION is on its way, mid a possible total collapse of the global economy. His thinking is not alone. Seeking a piece of paper to confirm your love might seem trivial in the coming chaos, or, rate low on the priority list of most Americans.
Obama will not - can not back down. To do so because of a group now famed for anger who can't win elections - would make him the political laughing stock of the world.
California cost us a great deal at the the moment and now is costing us more.
Mr Warren was on the winning side in Calif. - spoke during the campaign representing Evangelicals, far more numerous that Mormons in California and in greater America..
He won, we loose. And I am sure the Clinton people have told him the saga of how Bill got creamed on gay issues in his first year. He did. And Obama will not repeat that mistake.
There is much at stake in this election - I think our turn will come in the second term, not much before. One issue, ENDA might get passed in the second session of congress. Might, voters are OK with ENDA.
Time to get smart, quit whining and begin to win our political battles on the ground. Or loose by just handfuls of votes. California will haunt us for a generation.
Another thought - by telling us NO, Obama tells anyone who feels he is in their pocket NO ... good start to the hard road when all comers want a piece of you for their agenda.
Karl Rove, am I right?
Yesterday, our VP, JoeBiden, bright guy, let slip that the GREAT DEPRESSION is on its way, mid a possible total collapse of the global economy. His thinking is not alone. Seeking a piece of paper to confirm your love might seem trivial in the coming chaos, or, rate low on the priority list of most Americans.
30
As a Hillary supporter, turned Obama supporter, as a gay man I'm appalled and offended that he has asked Rich Warren to deliver the invocation.
31
I wrote to the pres-elect and told them I was appalled. We should all do so.
http://change.gov/page/s/civilrights
Go for it. It's only change if it's "change."
http://change.gov/page/s/civilrights
Go for it. It's only change if it's "change."
32
Rachel Maddow is to MSNBC as Bill O'Rielly is to FOX. Smarmy, smug, one-dimensional, bullying, completely oblivious to any opinion other than her own. It never ceases to amaze me how hacks like her can get their own show, and once they have it how the uninformed masses flock to them like hungry sheep.
34
please quit complaining about a 2 min prayer. the country is in financial trouble and your issues are the least of this countries worries. I worry more about people losing jobs,homes,401k,businesses,going hungry,etc. as a afro american the more you complain about what obama is doing the more you will lose our votes. if i here one more gay rights person blaming the blacks and other minorities for prop. 8 i will be sick. you lost prop. 8 because some of us are for social issues but gay marriage is not one of them. rachel is a complete hypocrite. the far left has lost so many elections because people like you don't know how to grow up. the world does not revolve around you. maybe rachel should complain about the non-diversity her network has. i guess you didn't pay attention from the beginning obama has always said a marriage is between a man and woman. we afro americans are tired of groups blaming us for everything we they don't win a fight.
35
@29
You are right.
Seriously, Obama faces a plateful of problems worse than any President since Roosevelt in 1933.
The whole invocation brouhaha has to seem to Obama like an incredibly stupid trivial pain in the ass.
Those who take advantage of the situation to make Obama's life miserable do the nation and themselves a disservice.
Do homosexuals want a place at the grown-ups' table or in the nursery with the other screaming babies?
If this went away now and whomever speaks for gays said, 'Warren irks us but we are playing nice for the good of the team' Obama would be grateful and appreciative and there would be chips to cash in later.
But hey, that would be the smart responsible thing to do. Don't hold your breath.
You are right.
Seriously, Obama faces a plateful of problems worse than any President since Roosevelt in 1933.
The whole invocation brouhaha has to seem to Obama like an incredibly stupid trivial pain in the ass.
Those who take advantage of the situation to make Obama's life miserable do the nation and themselves a disservice.
Do homosexuals want a place at the grown-ups' table or in the nursery with the other screaming babies?
If this went away now and whomever speaks for gays said, 'Warren irks us but we are playing nice for the good of the team' Obama would be grateful and appreciative and there would be chips to cash in later.
But hey, that would be the smart responsible thing to do. Don't hold your breath.
37
#36
boy oh boy - have you forgotten all the pussy talk among ALL straight guys
in sports, in the Navy, in college, at work --- where the hell have you been lurking
course gay men are just as bad -- exceptin' it is cock
please enter the real world at ground level
boy oh boy - have you forgotten all the pussy talk among ALL straight guys
in sports, in the Navy, in college, at work --- where the hell have you been lurking
course gay men are just as bad -- exceptin' it is cock
please enter the real world at ground level
38
Brian @ 37: The point is that the Porcine Evangelical Bastard doesn't sound too convincing when he talks about his 'heterosexuality.'
39
Are you jealous that there is someone who is for your cause that can actually speak and write in coherent sentences, SAVAGE? Go fuck off and die. The Gay community outside of Seattle DESPISES you. Just tend to your child.
40
32 Maddow is not bullying. She is more considerate of her guests than anyone else in cable news. You obviously don't watch her show.
41
Why does there have to be a prayer (sorry, invocation) at the inauguration, anyway?
I'm going to be offended, no matter who does it.
Why can't church and state really be separate?
I'm going to be offended, no matter who does it.
Why can't church and state really be separate?
42
It really sucks that Dan was right - LGBT community has to tolerate this guy and all the bullshit that spews from his mouth, but he doesn't have to tolerate them. What a fuckin double standard.
46
By all means, let's keep wasting time, energy, and potential political capital on who gets to say grace that the Obama coronation.
By all means, let's not focus on the more important issues ahead--such as ENDA (a battle we could win TODAY--check out the polling) and DADT and DOMA--no, let's burn our bridges over symbolism, let's put this pastor front and center, so that he continues to get more and more coverage and we pour gasoline on the fire to light up his life and work. Let's make a spectacle of ourselves at the Inauguration, with-hold support in the form of money and volunteer time, and let's appear as immature as possible, and then wonder why Rahm Emmanuel isn't taking calls from HRC or NGLTF when it comes time for the above issues--you know, the ones that actually affect the lives and livelihoods of queers--come up for votes or executive orders. Or judicial appointments. Or nominations to the administration.
Or...
Sure, we can let the Obama folks know this a bad idea and we're don't at all approve, but that we look forward to working with him on the issues he's pledged to support us with--you know, like job discrimination, equal opportunities in government and the military, civil unions benefits, as well as other progressive issues that aren't specifically queer-related. You know, like mature members of the political process who understand bones thrown to the other side, how symbolism factors in the larger scheme of actual political access and attention, and what battles to fight and where not to waste time or energy.
Or we could just keep making this story as big as possible, hurting our own self-interests in the end, and wondering why we get shut out of the political process in the future because we couldn't act show political smarts but just had to throw drama-queen tantrums that far outweight the actual insult instead of communicating a simple, rational disagreement about an invitation.
How about we queers and queer-friendly allies quietly turn our backs when Warren talks--no whistles, no boos, no ACT-UP tactic cuz folks ain't dying here--and then enjoy the rest of the Inauguration, with the knowledge that we're still on the inside with Obama, and working hard to stay there and hold his feet to the fire over what counts, because we know what really counts.
Or should we act like the dolts during the campaign that shouted "kill 'im" at the Palin rallies?
More...
By all means, let's not focus on the more important issues ahead--such as ENDA (a battle we could win TODAY--check out the polling) and DADT and DOMA--no, let's burn our bridges over symbolism, let's put this pastor front and center, so that he continues to get more and more coverage and we pour gasoline on the fire to light up his life and work. Let's make a spectacle of ourselves at the Inauguration, with-hold support in the form of money and volunteer time, and let's appear as immature as possible, and then wonder why Rahm Emmanuel isn't taking calls from HRC or NGLTF when it comes time for the above issues--you know, the ones that actually affect the lives and livelihoods of queers--come up for votes or executive orders. Or judicial appointments. Or nominations to the administration.
Or...
Sure, we can let the Obama folks know this a bad idea and we're don't at all approve, but that we look forward to working with him on the issues he's pledged to support us with--you know, like job discrimination, equal opportunities in government and the military, civil unions benefits, as well as other progressive issues that aren't specifically queer-related. You know, like mature members of the political process who understand bones thrown to the other side, how symbolism factors in the larger scheme of actual political access and attention, and what battles to fight and where not to waste time or energy.
Or we could just keep making this story as big as possible, hurting our own self-interests in the end, and wondering why we get shut out of the political process in the future because we couldn't act show political smarts but just had to throw drama-queen tantrums that far outweight the actual insult instead of communicating a simple, rational disagreement about an invitation.
How about we queers and queer-friendly allies quietly turn our backs when Warren talks--no whistles, no boos, no ACT-UP tactic cuz folks ain't dying here--and then enjoy the rest of the Inauguration, with the knowledge that we're still on the inside with Obama, and working hard to stay there and hold his feet to the fire over what counts, because we know what really counts.
Or should we act like the dolts during the campaign that shouted "kill 'im" at the Palin rallies?
47
Odd that a church that receives tax-exempt status can exclude a portion of the American population.
48
How are we not past the point in debates about homosexuality where we stop accepting comparisons between homosexuality and some level of "unacceptable sexual perversion"? How is having a loving relationship with a member of the same sex equivalent to nymphomania?
Just because bigots are braindead doesn't mean that the media should be letting them get away with that.
Just because bigots are braindead doesn't mean that the media should be letting them get away with that.
49
@39 Did you read that in the gay communities monthly newsletter? The one that goes out to everyone but Seattle? Is that where you found out about how everyone felt?
It is totally weird that America has a minister at their evocation. Does Obama need to get the approval of the great god in the sky?
It is totally weird that America has a minister at their evocation. Does Obama need to get the approval of the great god in the sky?
50
@49, yes, Jamie it's weird, as are a lot of things about America. Having a witch doctor or a tarot-card reader or someone reading Obama's Astrological Chart at the ceremony would seem about as rational... to me.
Unfortunately we don't live in the Rational States of America.
Wouldn't it be nice, though, if we progressives could set the example and respond rationally to this kerfuffle?
Unfortunately we don't live in the Rational States of America.
Wouldn't it be nice, though, if we progressives could set the example and respond rationally to this kerfuffle?
51
Yes, it could be that Obama is using Warren and the outcry against him to symbolically make himself more appealing to the two thirds of the country or whatever that may see him standing up to gays as a sign of strength. But Obama could have engineered something like this after he got into office. He didn't have to soil what should have been an amazingly emotional and historic ceremony with someone like Warren. There are literally dozens of religious folk he could have chosen from and everyone could have felt togetherness for this one golden moment of the inauguration ceremony.
But he didn't and it really is too late now. I think there's no way he can go back on his choice without shooting himself in the foot very publicly. I'm willing to wait and see if in fact this choice to use Warren is a brilliant machination.
Do I think the Obama machine is capable of this degree of politically sophisticated machination? Yes. Do I think 'teh gayz' and 'libruls' could make a big enough stink to get really ugly and maybe even make him blink and rescind the invitation? Possibly, but unlikely. At this point I think the damage to Obama's cred of rescinding the invitation would be worse than whatever the cost of not rescinding the invitation. What is not known is just how ugly 'teh gayz' and 'libruls' will get - and I think we have the right to do so.
But here's the stickler - at this point, as much as I think Obama made a not great choice with Warren - even in spite of whatever potentially brilliant machination may or may not be in play - I am (at least as of right now) not convinced this is worth getting as all out ugly over as we may be able to get with Obama.
It may be that someone or several someones in Obama's circle truly underestimated the potential backlash in this choice, and to the best of Obama's calculations thought this would have been a low cost opportunity to implement whatever brilliant machination he is up to, and he/his people may be a bit surprised by the reaction. This may be the point at which Obama realizes that whoever advised him (that this would be an acceptably low cost move) doesn't know enough about what they're talking about and he may reappraise or change who he listens to for advice on gay issues - for the better - in future calculations.
I try to keep in mind that for his amazingness, Obama is relatively young politically speaking, and he has never put together a presidential transition together before. I'm prepared for him to fumble around some as he figures out the best way to work his agenda - even to make some mistakes. That is what he said on the election night - that he will make mistakes but he will always tell us where he stands. I'm ready to take him at his word on that - for now.
So what should we - 'teh gayz' and 'libruls' do? I think we should continue to put up some grumble about this and definitely be e-mailing him what we really think,and we should continue to dig up and highlight the odious character traits of Warren. But I'm not convinced that this is the line in the sand worth taking down Obama about.
Yes, I realize we are all hurting pretty badly from the Prop 8 thing and that fresh pain is factoring into our reactions to this Warren thing, and yes, he is the president elect and has got to be ready to take all this into account - but I saying let him have some time and allow him to stumble a bit - for a while . . .
I'm willing to trust the man I voted for on November 4 and I'm willing to trust my own instincts that led me to pull the lever for him, and I'm asking my fellow gays to do the same - for a while. There'll be plenty of time to go all Armageddon on him if it turns out he's shining us on.
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But he didn't and it really is too late now. I think there's no way he can go back on his choice without shooting himself in the foot very publicly. I'm willing to wait and see if in fact this choice to use Warren is a brilliant machination.
Do I think the Obama machine is capable of this degree of politically sophisticated machination? Yes. Do I think 'teh gayz' and 'libruls' could make a big enough stink to get really ugly and maybe even make him blink and rescind the invitation? Possibly, but unlikely. At this point I think the damage to Obama's cred of rescinding the invitation would be worse than whatever the cost of not rescinding the invitation. What is not known is just how ugly 'teh gayz' and 'libruls' will get - and I think we have the right to do so.
But here's the stickler - at this point, as much as I think Obama made a not great choice with Warren - even in spite of whatever potentially brilliant machination may or may not be in play - I am (at least as of right now) not convinced this is worth getting as all out ugly over as we may be able to get with Obama.
It may be that someone or several someones in Obama's circle truly underestimated the potential backlash in this choice, and to the best of Obama's calculations thought this would have been a low cost opportunity to implement whatever brilliant machination he is up to, and he/his people may be a bit surprised by the reaction. This may be the point at which Obama realizes that whoever advised him (that this would be an acceptably low cost move) doesn't know enough about what they're talking about and he may reappraise or change who he listens to for advice on gay issues - for the better - in future calculations.
I try to keep in mind that for his amazingness, Obama is relatively young politically speaking, and he has never put together a presidential transition together before. I'm prepared for him to fumble around some as he figures out the best way to work his agenda - even to make some mistakes. That is what he said on the election night - that he will make mistakes but he will always tell us where he stands. I'm ready to take him at his word on that - for now.
So what should we - 'teh gayz' and 'libruls' do? I think we should continue to put up some grumble about this and definitely be e-mailing him what we really think,and we should continue to dig up and highlight the odious character traits of Warren. But I'm not convinced that this is the line in the sand worth taking down Obama about.
Yes, I realize we are all hurting pretty badly from the Prop 8 thing and that fresh pain is factoring into our reactions to this Warren thing, and yes, he is the president elect and has got to be ready to take all this into account - but I saying let him have some time and allow him to stumble a bit - for a while . . .
I'm willing to trust the man I voted for on November 4 and I'm willing to trust my own instincts that led me to pull the lever for him, and I'm asking my fellow gays to do the same - for a while. There'll be plenty of time to go all Armageddon on him if it turns out he's shining us on.
52
@51 well-put (and I grew up and did gay activism in Idaho, the reddest of the northern Red States, and I ain't giving up yet). He hasn't throw us under any bus--that causes HARM. His choice sprinkled some salt in the Prop 8 wound, and it wasn't the best decision--from our point of view. But the real tests on queer issues are yet to come. Let's stay in them to win them. To do so, we have to stay on the inside.
53
Rick Warren is weird.
He actually said on national telly that he wants to have sex with every beautiful woman he sees?
He did not have to say that. It is way too personal. Guys in their right mind NEVER say shit like that, unless...
He is gay.
Wow.
Rick Warren is a closeted queer.
Now the creepy, Stepford-esque tones in his sermons make sense.
He actually said on national telly that he wants to have sex with every beautiful woman he sees?
He did not have to say that. It is way too personal. Guys in their right mind NEVER say shit like that, unless...
He is gay.
Wow.
Rick Warren is a closeted queer.
Now the creepy, Stepford-esque tones in his sermons make sense.
54
Rick Warren is a great Christian patriot in the tradition of Sarah Palin, and I hope he will be able to heal Barack Hussein Obama of his Marxism, and his homosexuality.
55
This is the 21st Century. Do we really care what shaman is at the sidelines rattling bones to a god that doesn't exist?
57
Ha ha, Lord Basil. The irony of your posts always shines like a bright star on the gloom of our lives under King George the Retard.
Thank Jeebus we can see your sarcasm.
Thank Jeebus we can see your sarcasm.
58
For a second I thought that pic of Warren was one of Michael Savage. But that's because they're sisters under the skin...
60
Cato, you really are a fucking idiot. Assuming you aren't actually retarded, how can you compare the forced internment of Japanese Citizens in WWII to gay marriage?
A self-righteous pouty fag is one thing. A STUPID self-righteous pouty fag with absolutely no knowledge of history, and no sense of proportion is another.
Yes, it's bad that gays can't marry. But that is not the moral equivalent of slavery, the holocaust, the Japanese internment, Rwanda, or anything else horrific that has happened in world history. Gays who use these arguments make themselves, and all of us by extension, look like morons.
A self-righteous pouty fag is one thing. A STUPID self-righteous pouty fag with absolutely no knowledge of history, and no sense of proportion is another.
Yes, it's bad that gays can't marry. But that is not the moral equivalent of slavery, the holocaust, the Japanese internment, Rwanda, or anything else horrific that has happened in world history. Gays who use these arguments make themselves, and all of us by extension, look like morons.
61
I like it when Christians show their true colors. The Bible is anti-gay, and people who claim to believe that it is the word of God have to be anti-gay as well. Also, anti-woman. And pro-stoning. And all kinds of other fucking crazy things.
So, Rick Warren is the perfect guy to lead this totally inappropriate inaugural prayer bullshit. Let's keep holding people like him up as examples of what it means to be part of the Christian Right.
We knew Obama was only kinda-sorta on our side. His insensitivity, and willingness to tolerate hatred against us as a political token to evangelicals, is disappointing. But not surprising.
So, Rick Warren is the perfect guy to lead this totally inappropriate inaugural prayer bullshit. Let's keep holding people like him up as examples of what it means to be part of the Christian Right.
We knew Obama was only kinda-sorta on our side. His insensitivity, and willingness to tolerate hatred against us as a political token to evangelicals, is disappointing. But not surprising.
63
#49 -- Congress opens with prayer - where have you been?
Weird, hardly. Tradition. 60 per cent of Americans go to church, one kind or another - there are thousands of variations - sorry to shock you.
Weird, hardly. Tradition. 60 per cent of Americans go to church, one kind or another - there are thousands of variations - sorry to shock you.
64
Don't agree Warren is a closet case - can't get a single idea why some think so - it is weird to me that all these fuck heads become closet cases .... now that is weird.
Even gay men who just a little bi like to think aboaut fucking pretty women - how is that so strange. He just said it, of course, from him it becomes a sermon against the actual act.
He is one of the most influential Evangelicals in the world. No fool, and played against us in Calif. He is not afraid of the gay movement. Just a tad smarter than some of the right wing fools.
Gay, I think not. Possible big time pussy hound, you bet.
Even gay men who just a little bi like to think aboaut fucking pretty women - how is that so strange. He just said it, of course, from him it becomes a sermon against the actual act.
He is one of the most influential Evangelicals in the world. No fool, and played against us in Calif. He is not afraid of the gay movement. Just a tad smarter than some of the right wing fools.
Gay, I think not. Possible big time pussy hound, you bet.
65
If Obama rescinds this invitation, an olive branch to the 50% of the country that dislike him intently, watch all the shit that the democrats will not be able to get done. It will be one tiny battle won that will lose hundreds more later.
Obama is doing exactly what he said he was going to do which is to reach out and try and work with the other side. This is just a necessary step if Obama is to accomplish half of his stated goals.
Having this fat fuck bigot speak is a very smart move. Fighting this is retarded.
Obama is doing exactly what he said he was going to do which is to reach out and try and work with the other side. This is just a necessary step if Obama is to accomplish half of his stated goals.
Having this fat fuck bigot speak is a very smart move. Fighting this is retarded.
66
@1 -- the church is named after a nearby mountain. Apparently *not* Brokeback Mountain, even though both conjure the image of a swayback.
One of Maddow's banners said "Rick Warren says that homosexuality is evidence that evolution doesn't exist." Now Warren's an idiot about science too. Obama should DTMFA.
One of Maddow's banners said "Rick Warren says that homosexuality is evidence that evolution doesn't exist." Now Warren's an idiot about science too. Obama should DTMFA.
67
@1: Saddleback Church? As in California? Because if it is, it is NOT gay! Rachel is gay and who the hell cares? But Jesus, her hair is freakin UGLY.
68
well, this thread makes it clear that some here are just as ignorant about christians as some christians are abou teh gays.
i'm shocked anyone is surprised by the news that you cannot be gay and a member of warren's church. hello? 90% of churches in washington outside of the seattle city limits have this rule. this isn't some wacko philosophy... it is mainstream christianity.
here's the thing: we all have to get along. how do you recommend throwing them a bone if not a purely ceremonial (not a policy making position) one?
i want equal rights for all, especially regarding the current cause of marriage. but i also want freedom of religion as well. that creates a difficult tension. one argument is that churches are afraid they'll have to perform gay weddings... and we say: no you won't. but are we saying they have to have gay members?
maybe they do. maybe we'll be there at some point. maybe there will be no religion at some point. but in 2008, we still have to get along.
i'm shocked anyone is surprised by the news that you cannot be gay and a member of warren's church. hello? 90% of churches in washington outside of the seattle city limits have this rule. this isn't some wacko philosophy... it is mainstream christianity.
here's the thing: we all have to get along. how do you recommend throwing them a bone if not a purely ceremonial (not a policy making position) one?
i want equal rights for all, especially regarding the current cause of marriage. but i also want freedom of religion as well. that creates a difficult tension. one argument is that churches are afraid they'll have to perform gay weddings... and we say: no you won't. but are we saying they have to have gay members?
maybe they do. maybe we'll be there at some point. maybe there will be no religion at some point. but in 2008, we still have to get along.
69
Not breaking any new ground here, but I'm snowed in and opinionated so...
* It's a shame Obama invited Warren, and it's right we voiced our anger at the choice.
* We need to modulate our response for the long-term. If Obama is half the political genius he appears to be, he'll have gotten the message and we now have even more present and urgent grounds for a constructive dialogue with him about gay rights going forward.
* Therefore, we do not need to go into a boil-over that pressures him to rescind his invitation. I agree it will turn the bright beginning of the administration into another ludicrous sideshow a la DADT, where pundits on both sides vie for outrage points and nothing substantive comes from any of it. Modulation of response and allocation of finite resources are the backbone of any victory, military, intellectual, or otherwise.
* Ann Curry is becoming an ever more accomplished broadcast journalist.
* Rachel Maddow is so smug as to be unwatchable. That arched eyebrow and tone of self-satisfaction render her a cable clown. This is exceptionally disappointing because, as a fellow gay, I want her to be successful. She is not.
* It's a shame Obama invited Warren, and it's right we voiced our anger at the choice.
* We need to modulate our response for the long-term. If Obama is half the political genius he appears to be, he'll have gotten the message and we now have even more present and urgent grounds for a constructive dialogue with him about gay rights going forward.
* Therefore, we do not need to go into a boil-over that pressures him to rescind his invitation. I agree it will turn the bright beginning of the administration into another ludicrous sideshow a la DADT, where pundits on both sides vie for outrage points and nothing substantive comes from any of it. Modulation of response and allocation of finite resources are the backbone of any victory, military, intellectual, or otherwise.
* Ann Curry is becoming an ever more accomplished broadcast journalist.
* Rachel Maddow is so smug as to be unwatchable. That arched eyebrow and tone of self-satisfaction render her a cable clown. This is exceptionally disappointing because, as a fellow gay, I want her to be successful. She is not.
75
Hey ELSWINGER. You're right, I don't watch Maddow's show. Just like I don't read your blog. But I have watched it, and have seen her interview style in action. Just like I've read your blog, and have seen paragraphs upon paragraphs of your lonely meanderings. Having experienced both, I feel confident in saying Rachel Maddow is a closed-minded bully, and you're kind of pathetic.
Hey #60, well fucking said. Directed to one Cato fellow, but applies to all the mis-led drama conjured up by this unbelievably inconsequential event.
Uh-mazing.
Hey #60, well fucking said. Directed to one Cato fellow, but applies to all the mis-led drama conjured up by this unbelievably inconsequential event.
Uh-mazing.
77
@64
A substantial majority of my male friends are queer, and I feel like I have decent gaydar at this point. That dude trips it. Hard to say why. . . it's subconscious pattern-recognition (for me). Maybe not, who knows.
But . . . he just kinda fits the mold of pastors-who-will-later-be-caught-stuffed-full-of-dick. Again, hard to articulate WHY, but wait and see. :)
A substantial majority of my male friends are queer, and I feel like I have decent gaydar at this point. That dude trips it. Hard to say why. . . it's subconscious pattern-recognition (for me). Maybe not, who knows.
But . . . he just kinda fits the mold of pastors-who-will-later-be-caught-stuffed-full-of-dick. Again, hard to articulate WHY, but wait and see. :)
78
Thank you, Rachael for covering this important issue.
The more that we learn about Warren, the less appropriate he is as a choice to deliver the invocation at the inauguration.
If Warren does keep his slot at the inauguration, I hope that he is joined by other professional haters. I want to see the Grand Dragon of the KKK - in full gear - standing behind Warren. I want to see David Duke, also in full Nazi dress - standing alongside Warren.
If the theme is to give a voice to everyone - no matter how abhorrent their views - then let's include EVERYONE who bases their lives on hating and excluding others.
Be sure and bring in Palin's witchdoctor, too, so that he can pray away all of the gay that may be in the area. He can also chase away those pesky liberals too. Heck, why doesn't Obama just hand over the White House to McCain and Palin? Hell, their inauguration would be a lot less controversial.
The more that we learn about Warren, the less appropriate he is as a choice to deliver the invocation at the inauguration.
If Warren does keep his slot at the inauguration, I hope that he is joined by other professional haters. I want to see the Grand Dragon of the KKK - in full gear - standing behind Warren. I want to see David Duke, also in full Nazi dress - standing alongside Warren.
If the theme is to give a voice to everyone - no matter how abhorrent their views - then let's include EVERYONE who bases their lives on hating and excluding others.
Be sure and bring in Palin's witchdoctor, too, so that he can pray away all of the gay that may be in the area. He can also chase away those pesky liberals too. Heck, why doesn't Obama just hand over the White House to McCain and Palin? Hell, their inauguration would be a lot less controversial.
79
NO Rick Warren at the inauguration! Help our voice to be heard! Please kindly circulate this!
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeactio…
http://www.new.facebook.com/profile.php?…
http://www.eqca.org/siteapps/advocacy/Ac…
https://secure.pfaw.org/site/SPageServer…
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeactio…
http://www.new.facebook.com/profile.php?…
http://www.eqca.org/siteapps/advocacy/Ac…
https://secure.pfaw.org/site/SPageServer…
82
Maddow is annoyingly smug. She is becoming rather irritating. As for Warren, he is simply expressing a religous view shared by Orthodox Jews, Christians and Muslims. Maddow is not interested in dialogue. She is a typical hack left lesbian with a big mouth who is in love with the sound of her own blather.
84
Rachel grow up and quit bitching about Obama's choice of someone to lead a 2 min. prayer. HE'S THE (soon to be)COMMANDER IN CHIEF. Just because someone doesn't care for your choice of lifestyle isn't a homophobe or prone to sling hate speech no more than you are. Fucking grow up you'll never get prop 8 passed with your whining screaming and crying about it night after night. And really, cut the McCarthyism.. it's annoying and not helping either.
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