Friday, December 19, 2008
Politics / The Ladies More Fun with Pastor Rick Warren
Posted by Erica C. Barnett on Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 2:15 PM
From his sermon, "Let There Be Life":
From a human viewpoint we may have unplanned pregnancies. But there are no accidental conceptions. God says a fetus is not a tissue; it's a life I planned.Ninety-seven percent of abortions are not because of rape or incest or not because the life of the mother is threatened, which would be a legitimate issue, but simply because the mother said it's inconvenient. "I chose not to have it because it's not in my lifestyle at this time."
I think it's ironic that the feminists who have been so active in promoting abortion and the right to choose abortion are now complaining because more baby girls are being aborted than boys now that you can find out the sex. More babies are being aborted if they are not boys. Bumper sticker: "Support unborn women's rights."
God says abortion is killing. If you don't want to believe that then you'd better cut that verse out of the Bible because God said it.
There's the argument, "No child should be brought into this world unwanted." I say the fallacy of that is maybe the parents don't want the child, but God does. There is no unwanted child. God wants that child born. That's why He allowed that conception.
From his sermon, "Affair-Proofing Your Marriage":
The top five needs of most men are:1. Sexual fulfillment
2. Recreational companionship
3. An attractive spouse
4. Domestic support
5. AdmirationThe top five needs of most women are:
1. Affection
2. Conversation
3. Honesty and openness
4. Financial support
5. Family commitmentDid you see any similarities between those two lists? No. No wonder we have so much trouble adjusting in marriage.
On the various types of men, from his sermon, "God's Model for Manhood":
The third type is the World Class Whimp. [sic] These are the Dagwood Bumstead's [sic] of life. They are so inept that they are constantly outwitted by their children, wives, their dogs. Nobody takes them serious. Their motto is "Blessed are the passive for they will avoid conflict at all costs."The fourth image is the Gender Blenders. They are the Michael Jacksons and Boy Georges that don't even pretend to be masculine. They have a complete reversal of roles and identity.
What is the alternative to this? God's Model for Manhood. Being a male is a matter of your birth
but being a man is a matter of choice.
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1
what's wrong with having an attractive spouse? Attractiveness means different things to different people. And, besides, beauty is subjective.
This is the last straw. I cannot tolerate all this reactionaryism about Warren. I shall no longer read slog.
This is the last straw. I cannot tolerate all this reactionaryism about Warren. I shall no longer read slog.
2
I am not a Christian, and have asked this many times but never got an answer.
What is the verse in the Bible that says abortion is killing? I can't find it. All I can find is a verse that saya one is only alive when blood is flowing. Which would imply that abortions is ok, as long as it is before the heart has formed.
Some Christian here please tell me.
What is the verse in the Bible that says abortion is killing? I can't find it. All I can find is a verse that saya one is only alive when blood is flowing. Which would imply that abortions is ok, as long as it is before the heart has formed.
Some Christian here please tell me.
4
I'm sometimes told that we should tolerate Christianitis because only a small portion of the afflicted are harmful fundamentalists. This seems to be wishful thinking on the part of liberal Christians, however. Rick Warren is mainstream. This disease should be treated with sympathy, but not tolerated.
5
AHH! I hope Obama is doing this *only* in order to keep him in office for 8 years.
Pastor Rick Warren is just as sick of a human being as all the other pay-to-pray, spread-your Jesus-seed conmen.
Obama has lost some credibility on this with me. If this ends up being repeat behavior I'm writing in Rachael Maddow 2012...
Pastor Rick Warren is just as sick of a human being as all the other pay-to-pray, spread-your Jesus-seed conmen.
Obama has lost some credibility on this with me. If this ends up being repeat behavior I'm writing in Rachael Maddow 2012...
6
@4: "Christianitis"? Dammit, I've never been a Christian, but I still find that offensive. Go home.
7
@3. How is this in any way whining? All she did was post excerpts of his sermons, which, to me, would be interesting regardless of the whole Obama thing.
Frankly, I love reading stuff like this. I am totally fascinated by all of the weird ideas that many fundamentalists have about gender roles and marriage. On a long drive to Michigan, I once flipped past a Christian radio station and didn't stop listening for an hour because some woman was on talking about the what it means to be a "biblical woman" and the implications for how women should act...
So, keep it up, ECB....
Frankly, I love reading stuff like this. I am totally fascinated by all of the weird ideas that many fundamentalists have about gender roles and marriage. On a long drive to Michigan, I once flipped past a Christian radio station and didn't stop listening for an hour because some woman was on talking about the what it means to be a "biblical woman" and the implications for how women should act...
So, keep it up, ECB....
8
How about this. A movement to have everyone on the Capitol Mall to boo when Warren speaks. Everyone everywhere get out on your balconys and boo at that moment.
9
gross. i like obama a little bit less now. and that's too bad.
"I say the fallacy of that is maybe the parents don't want the child, but God does."
Not all of us believe in God! You have no proof he exists! Herego, you have no right to force the laws and morals of an unproven entity on my body! It's my choice!
"I say the fallacy of that is maybe the parents don't want the child, but God does."
Not all of us believe in God! You have no proof he exists! Herego, you have no right to force the laws and morals of an unproven entity on my body! It's my choice!
10
@6: Deal with it. We have come to a time when we need to distinguish between different types of tolerance. Tolerance is okay, if it means I allow you to exist without violence. Tolerance is not okay, when it means we treat absurd ideas as the equals of rational ones. These two types of tolerance are not the same. The former does not mean that I won't hold your ideas to be fucked up and wrong.
Also, I *am* home. Transits fucked up, remember? :P
Also, I *am* home. Transits fucked up, remember? :P
11
i'm not too worked up over this guy giving the invocation, but i'm glad other people are because this kind of shit needs to get more circulation outside christianist* circles (*a sub-set of christians who think their scripture should determine public policy). thanks for digging it up, and don't quit whining.
13
So how do we contact the Obama camp and tell them we're livid and will vote Green next time if he keeps this shit up?
14
Rick Warren is the model of masculinity now? No, sorry BtmBear69xX, you'd be laughed off of Bear411 in a heartbeat if you tried to lecture any single person about masculinity.
16
My preference for a relationship more closely matches the men's list. Shit. Do I need to get a sex change?
Well then I guess God should have arranged for a couple that wants kids right at that moment to get pregnant, eh?
I say the fallacy of that is maybe the parents don't want the child, but God does.
Well then I guess God should have arranged for a couple that wants kids right at that moment to get pregnant, eh?
17
@2:
"What is the verse in the Bible that says abortion is killing?"
Thou shalt not kill?
I think that it's more than a little ridiculous to claim that life could begin at any point *other than* conception. I think it's massive intellectual dishonesty on the part of pro-choicers who try to claim otherwise.
Of course, as an atheist, I don't believe there's anything wrong with abortion whatsoever. I do think, though, that it's pretty clear an abortion is an act that is terminating a developing human.
If you expect people to tolerate your views, you need to tolerate theirs. The main issue is that Christianists need to stop trying to make the legal system conform to their beliefs.
"What is the verse in the Bible that says abortion is killing?"
Thou shalt not kill?
I think that it's more than a little ridiculous to claim that life could begin at any point *other than* conception. I think it's massive intellectual dishonesty on the part of pro-choicers who try to claim otherwise.
Of course, as an atheist, I don't believe there's anything wrong with abortion whatsoever. I do think, though, that it's pretty clear an abortion is an act that is terminating a developing human.
If you expect people to tolerate your views, you need to tolerate theirs. The main issue is that Christianists need to stop trying to make the legal system conform to their beliefs.
18
@1
Physical attractiveness is not so relative. Ignoring personality and behavior and etc., most people agree when they see someone good looking and when they see someone ugly.
Physical attractiveness is not so relative. Ignoring personality and behavior and etc., most people agree when they see someone good looking and when they see someone ugly.
19
I'm with Julie in Chicago. I think this stuff is fascinating and creepy.
His "Top 5 Needs List" would actually be decent advice if it were a top 10, and not divided by gender. But then, he points out this Men Are From Mars bullshit, and totally misses the point. Of life.
Warren knows nothing of what it means to be a man. He's an insecure coward, hoping to keep the world in tune with his boundaries, rather than actually stepping out into it.
His "Top 5 Needs List" would actually be decent advice if it were a top 10, and not divided by gender. But then, he points out this Men Are From Mars bullshit, and totally misses the point. Of life.
Warren knows nothing of what it means to be a man. He's an insecure coward, hoping to keep the world in tune with his boundaries, rather than actually stepping out into it.
20
"maybe the parents don't want the child, but God does."
Well then, by getting an abortion, the parents are simply giving god the child, right?
Well then, by getting an abortion, the parents are simply giving god the child, right?
21
I can't believe Obama is such a devout member of Rick Warren's church. Wait ... he's not. Warren is an dumbfuck bigot, we all know this. No surprise there.
Let Obama use him as the olive branch, and then let us get the fuck over it.
Let Obama use him as the olive branch, and then let us get the fuck over it.
23
Stupid knuckle-dragging bigot troglodyte asshole.
Do we have to "tolerate" David Duke's ideas, too? Why doesn't Obama invite him to speak at his inauguration in order to "reach out" to those white supremacists who were so upset by the outcome of the election?
Do we have to "tolerate" David Duke's ideas, too? Why doesn't Obama invite him to speak at his inauguration in order to "reach out" to those white supremacists who were so upset by the outcome of the election?
24
I'm sure that all the randy, young Christian married men at Saddleback were overjoyed when Warren got up to the pulpit and told their wives that job #1 is to satisfy their husband's sexual needs.
25
So, does this mean parents of "unplanned children" can sue God for support payments? After all, if HE wants that kid so badly, why doesn't HE pay for it?
26
@25 Totally! And this is the problem with that rhetoric!
On the one hand, God wants all unplanned pregnancies.
On the other hand, the people with the unplanned pregancies don't have the resources to raise a child.
So...does that mean that if I get my girlfriend knocked up, Saddleback Church will give me money to support the child? If the answer is "no", that means he's not willing to put his money where his mouth is.
On the one hand, God wants all unplanned pregnancies.
On the other hand, the people with the unplanned pregancies don't have the resources to raise a child.
So...does that mean that if I get my girlfriend knocked up, Saddleback Church will give me money to support the child? If the answer is "no", that means he's not willing to put his money where his mouth is.
27
I'm sick to my stomach of assholes who tell me what "God" wants. Let "God" tell me to my face, assholes!
28
@2 Psalm 139:
13 For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother's womb.
14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.
15 My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place.
When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,
16 your eyes saw my unformed body.
All the days ordained for me
were written in your book
before one of them came to be.
It's a stretch, but you expected that. It certainly doesn't have the authoritative ring of Mark 10:21, "Jesus looked at him and loved him. 'One thing you lack," he said. "Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.'" Somehow that one manages to escape those who get hung up on the Psalm.
13 For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother's womb.
14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.
15 My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place.
When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,
16 your eyes saw my unformed body.
All the days ordained for me
were written in your book
before one of them came to be.
It's a stretch, but you expected that. It certainly doesn't have the authoritative ring of Mark 10:21, "Jesus looked at him and loved him. 'One thing you lack," he said. "Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.'" Somehow that one manages to escape those who get hung up on the Psalm.
29
21
you're totally right
Obama isn't a member of Warren's church
Now, whose church was Obama a member of for 20 years....?
you're totally right
Obama isn't a member of Warren's church
Now, whose church was Obama a member of for 20 years....?
30
Thanks, one last guestion then
If...
16 your eyes saw my unformed body.
All the days ordained for me
were written in your book
before one of them came to be.
Didn't God know that the book would be enpty of days? He sure should have know that the mother was going to get an abortion.
If...
16 your eyes saw my unformed body.
All the days ordained for me
were written in your book
before one of them came to be.
Didn't God know that the book would be enpty of days? He sure should have know that the mother was going to get an abortion.
31
@30 I'm not trying to defend these nut jobs, just trying to shed some light on their nut jobbery.
32
Thanks, youth worker. At least I finally got an answer. My Christian friends never could come up with one.
33
Regarding the lists of what husbands and wifes want: did he cite a source? I have a feeling he didn't pull it out of his ass.
34
I wonder what examples one and two are in his list of male subtypes. Are they those paragons of Christian masculinity known as Promise Keepers, as in "I promise not to hit my wife so hard next time she burns the meat loaf"?
And...seriously, Dagwood Bumstead? Yes, I know who he is, but that's only because I'm old. How many of you under 30 Slogheads are asking yourselves "Who the fuck is Dagwood Bumstead?"
And...seriously, Dagwood Bumstead? Yes, I know who he is, but that's only because I'm old. How many of you under 30 Slogheads are asking yourselves "Who the fuck is Dagwood Bumstead?"
35
I want the citation for the verse that says Abortion is killing. I have a feeling that verse was cut out of the Bible a long time ago, because it's not in my King James Version.
36
20, you beat me to it. And as for this @17:
"I think that it's more than a little ridiculous to claim that life could begin at any point *other than* conception."
I think it's more than a little ridiculous to claim that a life that can't sustain itself ON ITS OWN is nothing more than a parasite. It's only "life" when it can live outside its host's body.
"I think that it's more than a little ridiculous to claim that life could begin at any point *other than* conception."
I think it's more than a little ridiculous to claim that a life that can't sustain itself ON ITS OWN is nothing more than a parasite. It's only "life" when it can live outside its host's body.
37
God loves and wants all the little children? Really
In 2 Kings 15:16 I thought he commanded Menahem to kill everyone and even "rip open the women who were with child". God doesn't seem to mind those fetuses dying.
In Joshua 8:25-26, didn't God allow Joshua to triumph over the city of Ai and kill all 12,000 inhabitants with no mercy for the elderly, women, or children? Ditto 1 Sam. 15:3, when the Lord said, "slay both man and woman, infant and suckling..." I guess those newborns aren't the same as embryos or fetuses, huh?
How about that "...Wrath of the LORD; I am weary of holding it in. Pour it out upon the children in the street..." in Jeremiah 6:11? Doesn't look as if God cared about the suffering of those little children.
Please kindly stop spouting crapola about God/Jesus saying that every child, every life is a blessing. I've read the bible and THAT. IS. NOT. IN. THERE!
Kthnxbai!
In 2 Kings 15:16 I thought he commanded Menahem to kill everyone and even "rip open the women who were with child". God doesn't seem to mind those fetuses dying.
In Joshua 8:25-26, didn't God allow Joshua to triumph over the city of Ai and kill all 12,000 inhabitants with no mercy for the elderly, women, or children? Ditto 1 Sam. 15:3, when the Lord said, "slay both man and woman, infant and suckling..." I guess those newborns aren't the same as embryos or fetuses, huh?
How about that "...Wrath of the LORD; I am weary of holding it in. Pour it out upon the children in the street..." in Jeremiah 6:11? Doesn't look as if God cared about the suffering of those little children.
Please kindly stop spouting crapola about God/Jesus saying that every child, every life is a blessing. I've read the bible and THAT. IS. NOT. IN. THERE!
Kthnxbai!
38
Too funny Erica. Ricky is nicknamed Tubby on zee Internetz. His wife is a chubby-chaser! I bet it was fucking painful for him to give those donuts away to the No on 8 protesters outside his compound.
39
@2 @28
It's my understanding that Christian and Jewish tradition have held for centuries that life begins 7 days after birth. That's when boys are circumcised, and more importantly, when boy and girl babies receive their names; before that, the chances of mortality were so high that they didn't get a name.
It's for this reason that we celebrate New Years 7 days after Christmas-it's the festival of Jesus' circumcision. When Jesus was a week old is when "A.D." is considered to begin. Before that, it was still "Before Christ (B.C.)" because Christ wasn't considered a living human.
If Christianity really thinks abortion is a sin, why do Christians not date our years starting at Jesus' conception? I've never heard a good explanation of that, and it seems a pretty strong implication that historically, neither Christianity nor the Bible condemned abortion.
Certainly, modern Christianity has evolved different moral standards, but it's a stretch to claim that the Bible condemns abortion.
It's my understanding that Christian and Jewish tradition have held for centuries that life begins 7 days after birth. That's when boys are circumcised, and more importantly, when boy and girl babies receive their names; before that, the chances of mortality were so high that they didn't get a name.
It's for this reason that we celebrate New Years 7 days after Christmas-it's the festival of Jesus' circumcision. When Jesus was a week old is when "A.D." is considered to begin. Before that, it was still "Before Christ (B.C.)" because Christ wasn't considered a living human.
If Christianity really thinks abortion is a sin, why do Christians not date our years starting at Jesus' conception? I've never heard a good explanation of that, and it seems a pretty strong implication that historically, neither Christianity nor the Bible condemned abortion.
Certainly, modern Christianity has evolved different moral standards, but it's a stretch to claim that the Bible condemns abortion.
42
If God allowing a conception is proof that God wants that child, then God allowing an abortion is proof that God didn't want that child.
44
@43
Yes, of course you're right, sorry, my mistake. January 1 is still, however, the day of Jesus' circumcision, perhaps if you start counting from Christmas Eve on the 24th? According to the Wikipedia article "Feast of the Circumcision of Christ":
"Until 1960, the General Roman Calendar gave 1 January as the Feast of the Circumcision of the Lord and the Octave of the Nativity. In the 1960 revision by Pope John XXIII....1 January is denominated simply the Octave of the Nativity. Since 1969, the General Roman Calendar celebrates 1 January as the Solemnity of Mary, the Mother of God, referring to it also as the Octave of the Nativity."
Yes, of course you're right, sorry, my mistake. January 1 is still, however, the day of Jesus' circumcision, perhaps if you start counting from Christmas Eve on the 24th? According to the Wikipedia article "Feast of the Circumcision of Christ":
"Until 1960, the General Roman Calendar gave 1 January as the Feast of the Circumcision of the Lord and the Octave of the Nativity. In the 1960 revision by Pope John XXIII....1 January is denominated simply the Octave of the Nativity. Since 1969, the General Roman Calendar celebrates 1 January as the Solemnity of Mary, the Mother of God, referring to it also as the Octave of the Nativity."
45
@10: "We have come to a time when we need to distinguish between different types of tolerance. Tolerance is okay, if it means I allow you to exist without violence. Tolerance is not okay, when it means we treat absurd ideas as the equals of rational ones. These two types of tolerance are not the same. The former does not mean that I won't hold your ideas to be fucked up and wrong."
I'm trying to figure out how to sum that up for t-shirt purposes. Nice.
Also, anybody notice #4 on the list of top five needs of men? "Domestic support". Presumably that means, "a maid". Because making your own sammich after you cum all over your sporty, attractive wife is, like, a total drag. SHE should do it. Clearly.
I'm trying to figure out how to sum that up for t-shirt purposes. Nice.
Also, anybody notice #4 on the list of top five needs of men? "Domestic support". Presumably that means, "a maid". Because making your own sammich after you cum all over your sporty, attractive wife is, like, a total drag. SHE should do it. Clearly.
46
The top five needs of most men are:
1. Sexual fulfillment
2. Recreational companionship
3. An attractive spouse
4. Domestic support
5. Admiration
I actually agree with this completely.What is wrong with a man wanting an attractive partner by the way?
1. Sexual fulfillment
2. Recreational companionship
3. An attractive spouse
4. Domestic support
5. Admiration
I actually agree with this completely.What is wrong with a man wanting an attractive partner by the way?
47
@45
I took domestic support to mean emotional support.Such as being there to talk to, give advice, etc.
I was just scrolling and this one part caught my eye.I didn't see it was from a Warren speech.Therefore I didn't pre-judge it to be a bunch of BS as clearly some here have.
I definitely think the rest of this is silly.But as a straight male I look for a a lover who fullfills those five things and I don't see what the problem is.
I took domestic support to mean emotional support.Such as being there to talk to, give advice, etc.
I was just scrolling and this one part caught my eye.I didn't see it was from a Warren speech.Therefore I didn't pre-judge it to be a bunch of BS as clearly some here have.
I definitely think the rest of this is silly.But as a straight male I look for a a lover who fullfills those five things and I don't see what the problem is.
48
Hey! Little Girl
Comb your hair, fix your makeup
Soon he will open the door
Don't think because there's a ring on your finger
You needn't try anymore
For wives should always be lovers too
Run to his arms the moment he comes home to you
I'm warning you...
Day after day
There are girls at the office
And men will always be men
Don't send him off with your hair still in curlers
You may not see him again
For wives should always be lovers too
Run to his arms the moment he comes home to you
He's almost here...
Hey! Little girl
Better wear something pretty
Something you'd wear to go to the city and
Dim all the lights, pour the wine, start the music
Time to get ready for love
Time to get ready
Time to get ready for love
Comb your hair, fix your makeup
Soon he will open the door
Don't think because there's a ring on your finger
You needn't try anymore
For wives should always be lovers too
Run to his arms the moment he comes home to you
I'm warning you...
Day after day
There are girls at the office
And men will always be men
Don't send him off with your hair still in curlers
You may not see him again
For wives should always be lovers too
Run to his arms the moment he comes home to you
He's almost here...
Hey! Little girl
Better wear something pretty
Something you'd wear to go to the city and
Dim all the lights, pour the wine, start the music
Time to get ready for love
Time to get ready
Time to get ready for love
49
@25,26 etc
God doesn't want all unplanned pregnancies. He doesn't even want all planned pregnancies. I don't know what the spontaneous abortion rate is, but it's pretty damn high -- and a lot of women aren't even aware that they've gotten pregnant and then unpregnant. Any sperm-egg combination might be a "developing human" but many don't have what it takes to develop into a human. So the embryo stops developing and falls out.
Why does God make so many of them like that? Why doesn't he filter the sperm-egg combinations so only the ones that will survive 9 months in the womb combine? Why is God so mean to so many unborn babies?
God doesn't want all unplanned pregnancies. He doesn't even want all planned pregnancies. I don't know what the spontaneous abortion rate is, but it's pretty damn high -- and a lot of women aren't even aware that they've gotten pregnant and then unpregnant. Any sperm-egg combination might be a "developing human" but many don't have what it takes to develop into a human. So the embryo stops developing and falls out.
Why does God make so many of them like that? Why doesn't he filter the sperm-egg combinations so only the ones that will survive 9 months in the womb combine? Why is God so mean to so many unborn babies?
50
@47:
I don't think so! On the girlie list, the top three are:
1. Affection
2. Conversation
3. Honesty and openness
These things do not, apparently, constitute "domestic support". The term "domestic" is sometimes used to refer to servants. It think that's the meaning behind the manly #4.
I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting the stuff on either list. But the division between the two seems, to me, to codify stupid old gender stereotypes. The men AND women I've know have needed sex AND affection, play AND conversation. Cuz we're all, you know, people.
I don't think so! On the girlie list, the top three are:
1. Affection
2. Conversation
3. Honesty and openness
These things do not, apparently, constitute "domestic support". The term "domestic" is sometimes used to refer to servants. It think that's the meaning behind the manly #4.
I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting the stuff on either list. But the division between the two seems, to me, to codify stupid old gender stereotypes. The men AND women I've know have needed sex AND affection, play AND conversation. Cuz we're all, you know, people.
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