Friday, December 19, 2008
Politics / Homo Andrew Sullivan on Rick Warren
Posted by Dan Savage on Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 12:45 PM
I think Obama is different. I think the earnestness and sincerity of his campaign, and its generational force, have given us a chance for something new, and I fear that in responding too viscerally to the Warren choice, we may be throwing something very valuable away far too prematurely. There is no question that gays and lesbians have made enormous strides in explaining who we are in the last couple of decades. There is equally no question that Obama has substantively committed his administration to more gay inclusion and gay equality than any president in history. We absolutely do need to be vigilant on this. But we should also understand Obama's attempt to bridge some gaps in America that the Clintons, with their boomer baggage and Dick Morris cynicism, couldn't and didn't. This is what matters. Do gays and lesbians want to be a part of this—or sit fuming on the sidelines at symbolic slights?
We'll find out if this was a symbolic slight after Obama is inaugurated. How quickly will he move on his promises to gay and lesbian voters? Obama promised to let gays and lesbians serve openly in the military; he pledged to repeal DOMA; he said he would push for federal civil unions legislation that would provide same-sex couples with all the rights and responsibilities of marriage; he backed the rights of same-sex couples to foster and adopt children; and he said he would use the bully pulpit of the presidency to push for gay equality.
Obama did use the bully pulpit of the, er, president-electency to back gay rights; Obama stated, for the record at press conference, that he is a "fierce advocate" of equality for gay and lesbian Americans. Great. But Obama said that in response to the controversy kicked up by selecting Warren to give the invocation at his inauguration—a controversy kicked up by Obama honoring Warren. If angry gays and lesbians—and it's not just gay bloggers who are pissed (see Barney Frank's statement, and the head of the play-it-safe HRC's furious op-ed in the Washington Post)—Obama wouldn't have had to answer questions about Warren and wouldn't have made that "fierce advocate" statement. So our outrage got Obama to go on the record and firmly restate his support for gay equality.
Great.
But we won't found out who has been badly used here—Obama's gay and lesbian supporters or Rick Warren—until after Obama is president and he acts or fails to act on the promises he made to gay and lesbian Americans.
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1
Obama is on his way to becoming a truly indispensable politician, which is one who can inspire gratitude in his broad constituency while simultaneously keeping them fearful that he might remove his patronage. It's a Daley thing.
2
I'm pretty hopeful that it's the evangelicals that are getting played here. They have a long and storied history of being played by Republicans, so how come the Dems can't get in on the act? 'Course, us gays got played by Clinton with Don't Ask Don't Tell, so the historical precedent isn't entirely clear cut...
3
Remember the primaries. Remember the presidential campaign. Remember the number of times Obama supporters panicked for nothing.
Obama is ninja, do not doubt the awesomeness of his ultimate powers.
Obama is ninja, do not doubt the awesomeness of his ultimate powers.
4
If you really REALLY want to take this, to own this, starting telling all your gay friends "It's fitting that the man giving the last rites to Bush's administration is an evangelical."
6
Meanwhile, the U.S joins the company of such bastions of human rights as Saudi Arabia and Syria in rejecting a UN resolution calling for the decriminalization of homosexuality. The U.S. was the only major Western nation to oppose the resolution, claiming that the declaration was "not compatible with the division between between state and federal law."
The current administration cannot even agree to a non-binding resolution calling for homosexuals to have basic human rights. I know that the marriage debate may have leap-frogged over discussions about more basic rights, but it's worth noting that there is still much progress to be made on that front, given that our government's current position seems to be that the issue of whether or not homosexuals should be treated as human beings should be decided on a case-by-case basis.
The current administration cannot even agree to a non-binding resolution calling for homosexuals to have basic human rights. I know that the marriage debate may have leap-frogged over discussions about more basic rights, but it's worth noting that there is still much progress to be made on that front, given that our government's current position seems to be that the issue of whether or not homosexuals should be treated as human beings should be decided on a case-by-case basis.
7
I bet Hillary would not have invited Warren. So stop your bitching. I knew Obama was likely to do things like this and I bet others who supported him did too. You got the guy you wanted, warts and all. And don't think I'm not pissed as well. I am. But I'm not the least bit surprised. Take a deep breath and a wait and see attitude.
9
This is a fine line. I understand, or assume I do, Obama's intention. I'm just unsure what he will actually accomplish with this. He could easily reach out to Warren in a myriad of different ways at different times. The message he seems to be sending isn't that there is room for everyone in America, it's that LGBT rights aren't a serious issue, at least not as serious as racial or gender discrimination. This is a potentially very harmful message. One I honestly don't think Obama gets.
Listen everyone, homophobia is equivilant to racism. Warren's anti gay message is equal to David Duke's anti Black/ Jew message.
Everyone who cares about civil rights and understands the above should be opposed to Warren being given this platform. Of course if you don't see that homophobia=racism, then I guess you can excuse this.
Listen everyone, homophobia is equivilant to racism. Warren's anti gay message is equal to David Duke's anti Black/ Jew message.
Everyone who cares about civil rights and understands the above should be opposed to Warren being given this platform. Of course if you don't see that homophobia=racism, then I guess you can excuse this.
10
@9: Do you honestly and seriously think he's going to say "Lord, protect us on this day and destroy the gays"? That's the extent of an invocation. Think "The Lord's Prayer" but with an injection of Americanism.
11
My fear: Is this really how the next four years are gonna play out?
We’ll be told for the next two years that there’s no time for GLBT rights because Obama and Congress have to deal with Serious Issues That Matter.
The Dems will keep caving to the Retardicans and the right-wing of their party and the nation’s sinking situation only mildly improves. They barely survive the 2010 mid-terms, then tell us they can’t help us until after the 2012 presidential election.
The public becomes fed up again, and Obama is narrowly re-elected in 2012 with large Republitard majorities in the House and Senate. The Obama Adminstration spends the next four years consumed in scandals both real and imaginary generated by the Right Wing Noise Machine.
GLBTQBLT issues are permanently Off. The. Table.
We’ll be told for the next two years that there’s no time for GLBT rights because Obama and Congress have to deal with Serious Issues That Matter.
The Dems will keep caving to the Retardicans and the right-wing of their party and the nation’s sinking situation only mildly improves. They barely survive the 2010 mid-terms, then tell us they can’t help us until after the 2012 presidential election.
The public becomes fed up again, and Obama is narrowly re-elected in 2012 with large Republitard majorities in the House and Senate. The Obama Adminstration spends the next four years consumed in scandals both real and imaginary generated by the Right Wing Noise Machine.
GLBTQBLT issues are permanently Off. The. Table.
12
Meinert - You are spot-on with the homophobia=racism analogy. Now let's take a trip back in time, to 1964, which LBJ signed the Civil Rights Act into law. He said at the time, "We've just lost the South for a generation." The South, which had previously been a solid Democratic voting block, instantly turned red and is now the stronghold of bigots in this country.
Now it's easy to say "fuck the South", but really, the South has been doing all the fucking for the last 40 years, and it's because they were told to sit down and shut up. No, it's not OK for them to continue being racists. But shunning small-minded bigots just makes them angrier. So resentment built up. The result has been Nixon, Reagan, Bush I, Clinton (DOMA), Bush II, and we're just now starting to get out of the woods from that action. Shutting out people who hate you and your friends, especially as you take power, is a sure-fire way for them to become worse and worse bigots, then when they come back to power, they want revenge.
I believe that in the long term, we'll be OK - in 20-40 years gay rights will be a given, just because of where demographics are headed. But as they say, in the long term we're all dead. The only way to avoid the mistake of the Civil Rights Act is to hold hands with the bigots as we show them why they're wrong.
Now it's easy to say "fuck the South", but really, the South has been doing all the fucking for the last 40 years, and it's because they were told to sit down and shut up. No, it's not OK for them to continue being racists. But shunning small-minded bigots just makes them angrier. So resentment built up. The result has been Nixon, Reagan, Bush I, Clinton (DOMA), Bush II, and we're just now starting to get out of the woods from that action. Shutting out people who hate you and your friends, especially as you take power, is a sure-fire way for them to become worse and worse bigots, then when they come back to power, they want revenge.
I believe that in the long term, we'll be OK - in 20-40 years gay rights will be a given, just because of where demographics are headed. But as they say, in the long term we're all dead. The only way to avoid the mistake of the Civil Rights Act is to hold hands with the bigots as we show them why they're wrong.
13
@11: Yeah, because people like you keep saying they're giving up because a Reverend is saying a few words to some magic guy in the sky. Seriously? We got Obama to give us a firm date when DADT is back on the table-- if you're giving up now, then that date doesn't matter since nobody's going to fight for it.
If you think in the midst of hundreds of thousands of people losing their jobs, rising infant mortality and a war we can't seem to divorce ourselves from that the President is going to drop everything, you're wrong. Squeaky wheel, meet grease.
If you think in the midst of hundreds of thousands of people losing their jobs, rising infant mortality and a war we can't seem to divorce ourselves from that the President is going to drop everything, you're wrong. Squeaky wheel, meet grease.
14
@12: You call it holding hands, I call it close-quarters combat. It beats the previous standard: getting sniped from afar by the right wing.
15
Warren's anti gay message is equal to David Duke's anti Black/ Jew message.
I see this sentiment expressed over & over in the comments on all the "Warren" posts. The difference is, like it or not, Warren's homophobia is still WAY more mainstream than Duke's racism. That is an important distinction. Thankfully, Duke's ideology is breathing its last putrid breath. Unfortunately, we still have to engage Warren's homophobia. butting heads is never going to work, mainly because there is still WAY more of them than there is of us, even counting our straight allies.
I hate Warren, his people and christians in general, but this move makes sense.
I see this sentiment expressed over & over in the comments on all the "Warren" posts. The difference is, like it or not, Warren's homophobia is still WAY more mainstream than Duke's racism. That is an important distinction. Thankfully, Duke's ideology is breathing its last putrid breath. Unfortunately, we still have to engage Warren's homophobia. butting heads is never going to work, mainly because there is still WAY more of them than there is of us, even counting our straight allies.
I hate Warren, his people and christians in general, but this move makes sense.
16
@ AJ,
Who said I'm giving up? I wouldn't have contacted the transition team to express my anger if that were the case.
No, what I'm saying is we're not gonna get anywhere just by hoping that Obama rides in on his magic Unicorn that shits sunshine and rainbows and makes it all better. We're gonna have to keep pressuring him and those worthless dickheads in Congress non-stop.
And unlike the trillion dollar solutions needed for the wars and the economy, simple changes in the law to help the GLBT community should be relatively cheap and cost effective to implement.
Who said I'm giving up? I wouldn't have contacted the transition team to express my anger if that were the case.
No, what I'm saying is we're not gonna get anywhere just by hoping that Obama rides in on his magic Unicorn that shits sunshine and rainbows and makes it all better. We're gonna have to keep pressuring him and those worthless dickheads in Congress non-stop.
And unlike the trillion dollar solutions needed for the wars and the economy, simple changes in the law to help the GLBT community should be relatively cheap and cost effective to implement.
17
@16 - I totally agree. We can't take anything for granted, which is why everyone needs to keep the pressure on Obama to follow through with his promises.
18
Also, check out who's giving the benediction: Civil Rights icon Joe Lowery, who supports gay clergy and gay marriage:
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/ken-shepher…
See what he's doing there?
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/ken-shepher…
See what he's doing there?
19
What I find most alarming, is the fact that either Obama just made a dumb decision and stuck to it or it's a consious effort to piss off the far left to appease the far right.
20
How many times did you think to yourself, "Wow, Obama totally blew it/did it wrong/is making a mistake here" during the election?
How many times did he prove you wrong?
How many times did he prove you wrong?
21
@12
David, you flattering dog.
But you're behind the times.
The South has moved past racism.
Homosexuality is our new project.
We have amended our state constitutions to make same sex hand holding a capital crime.
Come and see us.
David, you flattering dog.
But you're behind the times.
The South has moved past racism.
Homosexuality is our new project.
We have amended our state constitutions to make same sex hand holding a capital crime.
Come and see us.
22
18
you've posted this a dozen times
how bout you tell us what he's doing here, clever guy, cause it just looks like he's screwing us over
you've posted this a dozen times
how bout you tell us what he's doing here, clever guy, cause it just looks like he's screwing us over
23
@21 - That's my point. (Well, actually, the South STILL isn't over racism, but whatever.) It took us 40 years to get to this point. Do you want to wait another 40 years before we can get gay marriage?
26
I'm really sick and tired of all the Obama-can-do-no-wrong apologists. Obama used the bully pulpit of the presidency to validate the acceptability of Rick Warren's virulent bigotry. He knew he was doing it. He knew it would marginalize gay people. He did it anyway. There are a thousand ministers he could have chosen who haven't shot off their mouths about how gay people are morally identical to child rapists. Instead, Obama chose for the moment of his inauguration an extremely divisive and polarizing figure.
And in response to criticism, he says to shut up because he gave us a gay marching band and lectures us about how equating a whole group of people with child rapsists is, apparently, his idea of disagreeing without being disagreeable. So much for hope, change, and unity! We're now outsiders at the inauguration of the president we worked so hard to elect, who campaigned on an ideal of inclusion. I resent Obama for his intensely exclusionary act, and there is nothing he can to do repair the breach.
As far as I'm concerned, he can henceforth cut the bullshit about hope, unity, blah, blah, blah. It's empty, meaningless rhetoric. It's now nothing but a crass political/financial transaction. He signs our bills and adopts our regulations, and we'll give him more money and support in 2012. Or he vetoes our bills and refuses to adopt our regulations, and we dog him with visceral protests that would embarrass ACT-UP. But the ideal of some kind of new politics or new era, well, he just put a stake in the heart of that.
All that people like AJ want is the same old triangulating sell-out politics of the Clintons, but that's exactly why plenty of us refused to vote for the Clintons in the primaries. Obama promised something different. Clearly, it was all a big snow job or, in other words, a complete lie.
More...
And in response to criticism, he says to shut up because he gave us a gay marching band and lectures us about how equating a whole group of people with child rapsists is, apparently, his idea of disagreeing without being disagreeable. So much for hope, change, and unity! We're now outsiders at the inauguration of the president we worked so hard to elect, who campaigned on an ideal of inclusion. I resent Obama for his intensely exclusionary act, and there is nothing he can to do repair the breach.
As far as I'm concerned, he can henceforth cut the bullshit about hope, unity, blah, blah, blah. It's empty, meaningless rhetoric. It's now nothing but a crass political/financial transaction. He signs our bills and adopts our regulations, and we'll give him more money and support in 2012. Or he vetoes our bills and refuses to adopt our regulations, and we dog him with visceral protests that would embarrass ACT-UP. But the ideal of some kind of new politics or new era, well, he just put a stake in the heart of that.
All that people like AJ want is the same old triangulating sell-out politics of the Clintons, but that's exactly why plenty of us refused to vote for the Clintons in the primaries. Obama promised something different. Clearly, it was all a big snow job or, in other words, a complete lie.
27
I wrote in Hillary's name because I could smell Obama phoniness all during the campaign. Yup, there will always be more important issues that gay equality because Obama doesn't give a rat's ass about gay equality.
28
Mr. Sullivan, this issue of Rick Warren cannot be discussed without acknowledging recent history. The same day that an African American won the Presidency, gays and lesbians were defeated a crushing blow in Prop 8. There was a WAVE of protests, outraged citizens taking to the streets, the way African American's have in the past. JFK took an upopular stand at the time by coming out against racism on MORAL grounds and would not have given a platform to a preacher espousing Bible-endorsed Racism on the day of his inauguration. He understood that African American's were fighting for their lives - their rights. That they were not 'a differing opinion' but rather human beings with families and children. We just witnessed an outpouring of pain, grief and injustice as expressed in the protests following Prop 8. If that hadn't have happened, Rick Warren's inclusion would not be that big of a deal. So one is left wondering - Obama, did you notice us and our placards, thousands of people marching in Los Angeles, San Francisco, all over the world? Did it mean nothing? Where is the openly Gay minister if we are to truly endorse opposing views? Perhaps an Anti-Straight Aethist?
29
And Mr. Sullivans comments ring too much like that of a political strategist, trying to imagine that perhaps this move is a kind of reverse psychology with the Christian Right. Tell that to the fifteen year old gay kid who sees this endorsement and wonders if Warren is right. He may not have time for reverse psychology to play out in this game of political chess.
30
I agree with Steve. What a bunch of Obamapologists. If it was McCain choosing Warren for this event, I doubt you'd all be saying, "Ooohh...this is very clever strategy of McCain." You'd simply be stating, "I guess McCain thinks it's perfectly fine to legitimize and popularize a homophobe." That's what you should also be saying about Obama.
31
OBama has been against Gay marriage from the beginning. He fully and openly stated that marriage is between a man and a woman - which to me is a cowardly act of underhanded biggotry. He is not PRO GAY - he is just not Against the gays. There is a difference. He is religious and is not only using his religion for his inauguration which frankly - is offensive enough..(.when will the separation of church and state ever kick in?) But - he can please the Right - cause he isn't pro gay and please the left and say he is not against us either. His new administration may be diverse, but there is no GLBT representation in his cabinet, and I am so happy he is "bridging" America together, He is just throwing the Gays off the side, just like everyone else.
32
Obama is dishonest and in denial. Only a politician could claim to be a "fierce advocate for equality" and against gay marriage- for separate and not equal AND silent on P8 when it mattered. He is on the wrong side of this issue and history will record it as so. Hardly the change and hope many of us voted for. It's politically expedient and disrespectful to honor such a champion of the anti-Gay industry. Shameful, really.
33
yeah i'm pissed too. but i live in the deep south in a town with no red light, and the stereotype of the southern backward asshole is no stereotype. i'm surrounded by them. it was almost dangerous for me to say that i supported obama. people around here honestly still think obama is a muslim, the antichrist,baby murderer and any other vile thing that any right wing dumb ass makes up. i'm 52, white, democrat, open-minded, female and isolated. i pulled up beside the only other vehicle at the local gym and noticed an obama sticker on the far side of the bumper. when i walked in i said "i like your bumper sticker. there's not many of us around who support obama." she got very angry and said loudly "that says nobama. i would never support a muslim, and you better do some investigating. he is against everything we as christians stand for." she kept talking and i finally walked off. you cannot argue with a fool. i hope i see her again. it'll be interesting to see if she has a different attitude since he has chosen rick warren. by the way her husband is a pastor of a small baptist church. big surprise. i lost my only child not long ago. people are so blind to what's really important.
34
OBAMA TEAM TO INCLUDE KLANSMEN AT INAUGURATION
by Ruby O'Butler - NYT 18 Dec 2008
In a surprising move, surrounded by much secrecy, Sen. Diane Feinstein [D-Ca] (who is in charge of a $1.24 million budget for the 56th quadrennial presidential inauguration) announced today that President-elect Obama would host the Grand Wizard of the KKK at the inauguration.
When asked about the mixed messages such a gesture might send, the Senior Senator said "it's sends a message of inclusion that even the dimmest bulb will understand" she went on to say "we want to reach out to all the cracks and crevices in America, even if means looking under slimy rocks". While the Senior Senator distanced herself from the outreach search committee due to her aversion to manual labor, she did offer up "that whatever the search committee found, ought to be included".
When asked what Obama and a head Klansman might do together, she offered that while the two originally planned to drink beer and shoot some hoops, the plan was changed when the Wizard complained that being seen on a basketball court might send the "wrong" message to the KKK members. Instead, the two will sit around and practice knots, finishing with a bonfire specifically built by the Grand Wizard for the ceremony.
While this meeting might seem alienating to one of President-elect Obama's biggest support groups, it is thought that the political jujitsu of this move should leave Gays who complained about the President-elect including a Preacher who insults gays and wants to deny equal rights speechless. So far, the Washington consensus seems to support view, "this as a very clever move that should be seen as "real change" by the American public" a well respected Washington insider close to the administration was quoted as saying.
Also appearing by special invitation to the presidential inauguration will be the Hell's Angels from California, along with assorted Somali Warlords and representatives of the Sudanese Government. For the record Sen. Diane Feinstein [D-Ca] was asked if she had personally extended a warm welcome to the Brown Shirt Organization of Greater America, but she declined comment specifically on that invitation, saying that "it's a real mixed bag" and "including everybody, regardless of their background, had left a lot on her plate...and she wasn't sure if it would come clean in time for the big event"
More...
by Ruby O'Butler - NYT 18 Dec 2008
In a surprising move, surrounded by much secrecy, Sen. Diane Feinstein [D-Ca] (who is in charge of a $1.24 million budget for the 56th quadrennial presidential inauguration) announced today that President-elect Obama would host the Grand Wizard of the KKK at the inauguration.
When asked about the mixed messages such a gesture might send, the Senior Senator said "it's sends a message of inclusion that even the dimmest bulb will understand" she went on to say "we want to reach out to all the cracks and crevices in America, even if means looking under slimy rocks". While the Senior Senator distanced herself from the outreach search committee due to her aversion to manual labor, she did offer up "that whatever the search committee found, ought to be included".
When asked what Obama and a head Klansman might do together, she offered that while the two originally planned to drink beer and shoot some hoops, the plan was changed when the Wizard complained that being seen on a basketball court might send the "wrong" message to the KKK members. Instead, the two will sit around and practice knots, finishing with a bonfire specifically built by the Grand Wizard for the ceremony.
While this meeting might seem alienating to one of President-elect Obama's biggest support groups, it is thought that the political jujitsu of this move should leave Gays who complained about the President-elect including a Preacher who insults gays and wants to deny equal rights speechless. So far, the Washington consensus seems to support view, "this as a very clever move that should be seen as "real change" by the American public" a well respected Washington insider close to the administration was quoted as saying.
Also appearing by special invitation to the presidential inauguration will be the Hell's Angels from California, along with assorted Somali Warlords and representatives of the Sudanese Government. For the record Sen. Diane Feinstein [D-Ca] was asked if she had personally extended a warm welcome to the Brown Shirt Organization of Greater America, but she declined comment specifically on that invitation, saying that "it's a real mixed bag" and "including everybody, regardless of their background, had left a lot on her plate...and she wasn't sure if it would come clean in time for the big event"
35
You know Andrew we get that you don't like HRC, but even when they do stand up you still have to be a JERK and make a backhanded remark criticizing them. Get over yourself and stop having a hard on for this organization--oh wait, that means you will have to stop having that hard on for the Clintons too. Then what will you do for a living?You sir are also part of the reason LGBT rights drag along, and not just the HRC.
Get a new act!
Get a new act!
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