Thursday, December 18, 2008
Politics More on Rick Warren
Posted by Erica C. Barnett on Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 2:32 PM
Here's what Obama inauguration pastor Rick Warren's "ministry toolbox," written by Warren and other church leaders, has to say about wives submitting to their husbands:
Submission does not mean women are under the authority of men in general. I love the King James Version's rendition of Ephesians 5:22 "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands." Guess what? Wives aren't asked to submit to anyone else's husband! Just their own!While I make this point somewhat tongue-in cheek, many women assume the Bible teaches their general inferiority and subjection to men. Untrue. Paul is talking about marriage as a matter between each husband and wife.
It is a relief to know that as a wife and mother I am not totally responsible for my family. I have a husband to look to for counsel and direction. I can rely on his toughness when I am too soft and his logic when I am too emotional.
About why men don't like to come to church:
Before men climb aboard, they want to see a man — a real man — at the helm. Men appreciate a pastor who's bold and outspoken — one who shoots from the hip now and then. They also like pastors who do guy stuff. The more outdoorsy, athletic, or risky things you do, the more comfortable your men will be..Most church buildings are adorned with quilts, flowers, lace, and banners. How do we expect men to connect with God in a room that looks like a beauty parlor?
Redecorate your worship space with men in mind. Take down the quilts and lace. Repaint using the colors of the field. Change your lighting. If you've got the guts, cover the walls with swords, shields, or maybe even mounted animal trophies.
Many women prefer a homespun, family-oriented service, warts and all. Gals enjoy hearing nine-year-old Allison play the offertory on her clarinet, even if she misses most of the notes. A lengthy testimony from Sister Marge doesn't bother the ladies. They don't seem to mind when Sister Blanche requests prayer for her aunt's gall bladder.
Years ago, I attended a church where everyone held hands across the aisles while singing a unity hymn. Men hate this — especially when they have to hold hands with other men
About a proposed US Constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage:
Unless people of faith want to see a judicially decreed, same-sex “marriage” hegemony imposed on our nation, we must translate our outrage, conviction and concern into phone calls to our senators, congressmen and the president.With the lukewarm support the amendment is currently getting, it is evident that not enough U.S. Senators feel the heat. Unless Washington senses the pressure from a groundswell of protest, they won’t see the light, and marriage, as we have known it in America, will be further imperiled.
About porn:
I went for a while thinking I could handle it on my own. Frankly, who wants to admit this kind of sin? With my years of experience in ministry and my seminary degree, I thought I could figure a way out of this one.But I kept falling into a cycle of despair — perhaps you’re familiar with it? Falling on my face before God, I’d swear I’d never do it again. But then I’d convince myself that one last time wouldn’t hurt, and quickly I’d be stuck right back in the briar patch of pornography that plagues the World Wide Web.
My wife is also an ally in this battle, and you need yours as well. Sherry set "locks” on my computer, and I do not know the password. This means I am blocked from most pornographic sites because my wife’s settings recognize them as such. I also — and, yes, this was embarrassing — handed my wife a list of Internet addresses for the pornographic sites I tended to visit.
She created specific blocks for them, so I can no longer access them. Once again, this eliminated a lot of my temptation. I now feel comfortable using my own computer, but nervous when I use an unprotected computer. I’m glad my wife established these blocks.
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1
News flash: At least 40% of America is homophobic and antifeminist. Maybe it's time to start doing something about that. Like, maybe just telling them they're wrong all the time (no matter how wrong they actually are) isn't the way to win them over. Like, just maybe sidling up to them and showing them you're not the enemy they think you are, while still not budging on your principles, might actually be something to try for once.
2
The Apostle Paul is hardly a good source for healthy male/female relations. He believed in marriage only as a last resort for those who could not sustain their chastity, which he believed was the correct lifestyle.
4
I fear one of my fainting spells t when I imagine this man's wicked hands on the mighty, mighty levers of power that come with giving the invocation at the inauguration. Oh my... Oh--
* * *
...oh my. There. Right there. I just fainted. Someone be a dear bring me a glass of sherry.
* * *
...oh my. There. Right there. I just fainted. Someone be a dear bring me a glass of sherry.
5
I think that he wouldn't sound like such a moron if he would have his wife take the blocks off his computer and put a chastity belt on him. That way she could "submit" to his manly authority as much or as little as she cares to, while he could look at all the porn he can stand without being able to, um, embarrass himself before the Eyes Of The Lord.
The animal trophy's on the church walls is still a bit over the top, even if the big guy has his little guy under his wife's lock and key.
The animal trophy's on the church walls is still a bit over the top, even if the big guy has his little guy under his wife's lock and key.
7
Obama isn't starting this drama; attention starved bloggers are starting it.
No one in the real world gives a shit.
No one in the real world gives a shit.
8
I always love the bits about submitting to your husband. There is some movement that I have been reading about called the True Woman movement. It's all about "biblical womanhood" (i.e., purity, modesty, submission, meekness). I think I am the anti-True Woman.
9
Re: making churches more "manly" - I always thought this was what fraternal lodges were for.
After all, just how "manly" CAN a man get, when he's constantly surrounded by, not just the artifacts of femininity, but actual females?
No, better to lock them out entirely, and commune in the fraternal company of other men only.
I'll bet Paul would've been all OVER that, like Dan on a skinny twink in snow-white BVD's...
After all, just how "manly" CAN a man get, when he's constantly surrounded by, not just the artifacts of femininity, but actual females?
No, better to lock them out entirely, and commune in the fraternal company of other men only.
I'll bet Paul would've been all OVER that, like Dan on a skinny twink in snow-white BVD's...
10
If women have to submit to their own husbands, wouldn't that mean that men can do whatever they damn please on their own time? The last guy's situation with his wife controlling his access to porn sure sounds like the husband is submitting to the wife.
11
Yall are the one who elected a dude who went to an insane ethnocentric quasi-black nationalist Christian church for over 20 years. WTF did you expect, dumbasses? You look like a bunch of naive wimpy dupes!!!!
13
It seems they have a perverted sense what it means to be a human being. Like we need something or someone to control our every thought and action. That anything other than what they believe is just wrong because...well because. This is a simple minded view of everything and everyone. That's it, simple minded. They are simple minded and they think they should run everyone elses life for them.
14
Gays, meet Mr. Obama. He does not like you as much as you assumed he did. Oh, and he has wedges, and knows how to use them as well as Mr. Clinton ever did. Now, talk amongst yourselves.
17
```, ````````` ````` ```````` ``````` HRC; ```````````````````````` , ````````````````````````` ````````````````````````````` , `````````````, ``````````, Obama ```````````````Warren ````````````````````politician, but better than most.
Unity--
Unity--
19
really? are we still upset about this? He's throwing evangelicals a bone. He's not giving him a fucking cabinet position, he's letting the spoksman for his enemies give a speech. Can we not all see the political value for Obama here? How about we all chill out a little bit and see this for what it really is.
20
I'm not particularly happy with any official xtian participation in the inaugural. Maybe at one time xtians were leaders in the fight for equal rights for all, but that was a long time ago. Now days the so called "liberal" xtains stay quiet in the face of their more out spoken and less tolerant brethren. And the intolerant crowd are certainly able to find bible verses to support their arguments. In my opinion the whole faith thing is extremely suspect.
But like it or not, we're a predominantly xtian nation. So my real question is what does Obama get out of this? If he can call in a favor six months from now that makes the difference on a significant congressional vote, then perhaps this is all worthwhile.
But like it or not, we're a predominantly xtian nation. So my real question is what does Obama get out of this? If he can call in a favor six months from now that makes the difference on a significant congressional vote, then perhaps this is all worthwhile.
21
Reverend Joseph Lowery is giving the benediction. Warren is giving the invocation. Does anyone out there know which is generally considered the more prestigious of the two?
22
This makes me furious. Though I am not surprised. One of the reasons I was a HRC supporter was this exact fear - that Obama would not recognize gay rights as human rights, and that some of his Christian ties would affect his decisions.
Still better by a million miles than the last 8 years.
Still better by a million miles than the last 8 years.
24
24: Warren is a pussy, just like a lot of the people posting here about how horrified they are by what amounts to a meaningless prefunctory speech.
25
22: I'm so glad you supported Clinton. You're very enlightened. You alone could predict this kind of thing happening under Obama.
27
Fortunately, Warren won't be speaking on any of these subjects at the invocation so who the fuck cares? And also, what did you expect? Warren believes the same thing that 99.9 percent of pastors believe. Odds were, the pastor he picked would believe all this stuff.
28
@8: Julie, I have been reading about the "True Woman" thing too, and all I have to say is that the further I get AWAY from that ideal, the happier I am and the better the world around me will be.
And to Rick Warren, and to Team Obama for picking this slovenly shit eating wretch--fuck you. A lot.
And to Rick Warren, and to Team Obama for picking this slovenly shit eating wretch--fuck you. A lot.
29
The best way to express our rage is to not attend the inaguration event for the nigger elect at the Triple Door. You see I am a gay Aryan Nation with religious objections to the inferior niggers. I hope that my beliefs can be respected. This is the niggers perspective on choosing Warren.
31
Yes, Warren is a class A douche.
Yes, it was stupid for Obama to pick him for the inauguration.
But... I'm having a really hard time getting all worked up over this. It isn't like Obama picked him as a policy advisor or named him to a cabinet position. He's just reciting the stupid invocation that I couldn't give 2 shits about. He'll be on and off the air in 5 minutes. I have more pressing worries than this idiot.
Yes, it was stupid for Obama to pick him for the inauguration.
But... I'm having a really hard time getting all worked up over this. It isn't like Obama picked him as a policy advisor or named him to a cabinet position. He's just reciting the stupid invocation that I couldn't give 2 shits about. He'll be on and off the air in 5 minutes. I have more pressing worries than this idiot.
34
@21,
Nope, but I do know that Lowery is very pro-gay. I also know that he used his platform at Coretta Scott King's funeral to rail against Bush to Bush's face. Anyone who thinks that Obama is a pussy or hates the gays should keep that in mind.
Nope, but I do know that Lowery is very pro-gay. I also know that he used his platform at Coretta Scott King's funeral to rail against Bush to Bush's face. Anyone who thinks that Obama is a pussy or hates the gays should keep that in mind.
35
stupid choice
strupid
a george bush type of choice
stupid
I am very un happy
Canada, oh Canada
is that you calling?
strupid
a george bush type of choice
stupid
I am very un happy
Canada, oh Canada
is that you calling?
36
What Obama has done which is so disastorious is that he just anointed Rick Warren the new Billy Graham. He is the face of prostatant christanity until his death. The Billy Graham spot is a lifetime appointment.
37
This was an idiotic choice by Obama. Tone deaf. And to the Obamaniacs who are whistling past the graveyard extolling this as political brilliance - you are the same people who if they were to see Obama shoot an Al Qaeda captive in the head with a handgun would crow "what a brilliant political move - he's appealing to the NRA and the hawks! ... Stunningly clever!"
38
@37 - Dude, no, you still don't get it. Killing someone is one thing, like passing or proposing or endorsing legislation to take someone's rights away, or even failing to take initiative to act to restore people's rights. Talking to and reaching out to small-minded people is a different thing. It's not a betrayal, in fact, it's a necessary step in the right direction, and if you stop to take the long view, ONLY this sort of thing will get us there.
I do think though that this would be a good time for Obama to throw a bone to the gay community. We'll see what happens after he's actually in office and has the power to do stuff. At this point it can only be symbolic, but what he's got up at change.gov is promising. Patience.
I do think though that this would be a good time for Obama to throw a bone to the gay community. We'll see what happens after he's actually in office and has the power to do stuff. At this point it can only be symbolic, but what he's got up at change.gov is promising. Patience.
39
Not being a Seattle Big Thinker nor a kneejerk sort of homo, I am torn on this whole reverend thing. After all, it's just a dumb prayer offered to a deity that I don't believe in, in a ceremony that will not be remembered for its religious significance.
I do believe in civil rights for all, and that includes gay rights, but I admit to some ambivalence about "marriage" (On account of that whole not-believing-in-God thing. I don't think the government should be in the sacrament sanctioning business, no matter who is hooking up with who)
I suppose I could feel insulted or betrayed, but I never expected Obama to be a particularly "gay-friendly" president, nor would I particularly want him to be - at least not to the exclusion of others. He's got too many pressing issues that affect the very future of the planet to be tilting after windmills - particularly as I believe the windmill of gay predjudice is going to fall on its own in the next generation or so.
And I never thought Obama was perfect, or that his presidency would be perfect. I respect and admire him very much, but let's face it - a housecat would be a better president than Bush. Obama is yet another toehold in the long long struggle to return this country to some sort of normalcy.
So let him put some TV minister up on the national stage. All I really want, at least at this stage in my life, is survivor rights for both my partner and I's pensions, so that we can both have some security (Besides social security) in our old age. I believe that Obama is the sort of person who can be reasoned with on bread-and-butter issues like this.
I do believe in civil rights for all, and that includes gay rights, but I admit to some ambivalence about "marriage" (On account of that whole not-believing-in-God thing. I don't think the government should be in the sacrament sanctioning business, no matter who is hooking up with who)
I suppose I could feel insulted or betrayed, but I never expected Obama to be a particularly "gay-friendly" president, nor would I particularly want him to be - at least not to the exclusion of others. He's got too many pressing issues that affect the very future of the planet to be tilting after windmills - particularly as I believe the windmill of gay predjudice is going to fall on its own in the next generation or so.
And I never thought Obama was perfect, or that his presidency would be perfect. I respect and admire him very much, but let's face it - a housecat would be a better president than Bush. Obama is yet another toehold in the long long struggle to return this country to some sort of normalcy.
So let him put some TV minister up on the national stage. All I really want, at least at this stage in my life, is survivor rights for both my partner and I's pensions, so that we can both have some security (Besides social security) in our old age. I believe that Obama is the sort of person who can be reasoned with on bread-and-butter issues like this.
40
I am not torn about this at all. I unsubscribed from the Obama email list-serve, which then asks for a reason why (optional). I will never donate to a candidate again. This is not change.
41
@40, yeah that will show them! Is there a medal of honor for civilians, because you sure deserve it!
42
Jesus, what a bunch of whiny knee-jerk reactionaries Stranger readers are. Obama has to do everything in step with your every desire or he loses his halo? Is this the first election that you've cast a ballot? Are you really that politically naive?
Get your heads out of your asses and look at (1) the real issues this administration is spending time on, (2) what our reality would be if your fallen idol hadn't won the election in the first place, and (3) the true change this administration can bring after america's last 8 putrid years of leadership.
This scumbag is speaking for 2 or 3 minutes and will be forgotten in a week. They're not going to invite your Mars Hill pastor no matter how much you bitch about it. Shut the fuck up already.
Get your heads out of your asses and look at (1) the real issues this administration is spending time on, (2) what our reality would be if your fallen idol hadn't won the election in the first place, and (3) the true change this administration can bring after america's last 8 putrid years of leadership.
This scumbag is speaking for 2 or 3 minutes and will be forgotten in a week. They're not going to invite your Mars Hill pastor no matter how much you bitch about it. Shut the fuck up already.
43
So, last week I was watchin' my favorite TV show, "Heroes", when I got this fierce itch right on my balls. You know, like on the back of my balls, right up near my asshole. So I started diggin' around up there, because it was really itchin', and I got hold of this thing that looked like a little crab. Now, did I mention I was watching my favorite TV show, "Heroes", and eatin' my favorite TV dinner "Manwich Meal", and I just got hold of this little crab, and grabbed it off my asshole. Well, it was bitin' my finger and I tried to shake it off, but it just held on for dear life, and was really pinchin' my finger. But I was still hungry, so I kept eatin' my TV dinner, and I got so fed up I just flicked that little crab right on the floor. So my question is, do you think there are more crabs up there behind my balls, or was it just that one, and I can go back to watchin' my favorite shows?
44
@1
"News flash: At least 40% of America is homophobic and antifeminist. Maybe it's time to start doing something about that. Like, maybe just telling them they're wrong all the time (no matter how wrong they actually are) isn't the way to win them over. Like, just maybe sidling up to them and showing them you're not the enemy they think you are, while still not budging on your principles, might actually be something to try for once."
This makes more sense than all of the hand wringing on the rest of this thread combined.
I get why some people are upset about this, but maybe this is what Obama talked about during the campaign. Ultimately, don't actions speak louder than righteous words?
"News flash: At least 40% of America is homophobic and antifeminist. Maybe it's time to start doing something about that. Like, maybe just telling them they're wrong all the time (no matter how wrong they actually are) isn't the way to win them over. Like, just maybe sidling up to them and showing them you're not the enemy they think you are, while still not budging on your principles, might actually be something to try for once."
This makes more sense than all of the hand wringing on the rest of this thread combined.
I get why some people are upset about this, but maybe this is what Obama talked about during the campaign. Ultimately, don't actions speak louder than righteous words?
45
(42) They're not going to invite your Mars Hill pastor no matter how much you bitch about it.
I haven't seen anybody advocating for any Mars Hill pastor. His views would be pretty much the same as Warren's.
I haven't seen anybody advocating for any Mars Hill pastor. His views would be pretty much the same as Warren's.
46
what's so strange about churches having "feminine" decorations? Women do most of the work within the church, if not in the actual ministry, so why wouldn't they honor the Lord with beautiful adornments. I mean, who cleans the church? Who sets up the potlucks, the prayer groups, makes sure the programs and bulletins go out? Who visits the sick, provides childcare and elder respite? For the most part, it's WOMEN. If the ladies want any power in the church, they should step down and watch the few men that participate try to pick up their slack.
Oh, and for all his meek-speak and pseudo-inclusiveness, Warren sucks
Oh, and for all his meek-speak and pseudo-inclusiveness, Warren sucks
47
Redecorate your worship space with men in mind. Take down the quilts and lace. Repaint using the colors of the field. Change your lighting. If you've got the guts, cover the walls with swords, shields, or maybe even mounted animal trophies.
Odiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinnnnnn!
Odiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinnnnnn!
48
Jon Walker (one of the authors) said... I’m confessing this to you today because I want you to know you’re not alone. A few weeks ago, we conducted a confidential survey on Pastors.com and the results suggest that a significant portion of you might struggle with Internet pornography. It’s a problem rampant within the church and among church leadership.
And so a life of sexual ignorance and deprivation comes home to roost.
It's amazing, but these kind of people who know so little about sex and what is perfectly normal actually have the nerve to council couples on problems in their personal lives. Talk about the blind leading the blind.
And so a life of sexual ignorance and deprivation comes home to roost.
It's amazing, but these kind of people who know so little about sex and what is perfectly normal actually have the nerve to council couples on problems in their personal lives. Talk about the blind leading the blind.
49
Repaint using the colors of the field.
That way, while the women are chatting after the service, "Oh, I'm a Summer. My sister's an Autumn." The men can compare, too, "See, my boss is a Moose, but me, I'm more of a Duck Hunting Season."
More seriously, this feminine-environment thing must be a mega-church problem. Is there anything more masculine than a Gothic cathedral with its strong, solid columns and soaring arches?
That way, while the women are chatting after the service, "Oh, I'm a Summer. My sister's an Autumn." The men can compare, too, "See, my boss is a Moose, but me, I'm more of a Duck Hunting Season."
More seriously, this feminine-environment thing must be a mega-church problem. Is there anything more masculine than a Gothic cathedral with its strong, solid columns and soaring arches?
50
What the heck. Warren's god is so small, intolerant, unsure, bigoted, jealous, and unsexed that its pretty worthless. So let him pray to it. Won't hurt anybody anyway. Animal skins, porn, fearing other mens' hands, etc are not exactly traits I want in my pastor. I worship the One True God, the Creator of the universe, whose love is encompassing as the stretches of space. That's one of Jesus' fathers. I presume he learned his 'manly' traits from his earthly dad. Carpenters aren't known for their wussiness! One thing not in Jesus DNA; he didn't have a preacher for a father. Warren does. Ever heard of the preacher's kid who knocked........?
51
He has his wife put locks on his computer because he can't stop looking at porn? Gotta love his self-control. “porn in moderation” works for me. Actually, most porno is just sexual fast food, much like the theological fast food that folks like Warren serve up.
I wonder how many people are attracted to fundamentalism because they lack self-discipline. To solve one's own problems is a sign of great inner-strength. The desire for a savior is based on weakness. The greater the inner-conflict, the greater the need for external strictures. Underneath the piety, often lies a pervert waiting to come out.
I wonder how many people are attracted to fundamentalism because they lack self-discipline. To solve one's own problems is a sign of great inner-strength. The desire for a savior is based on weakness. The greater the inner-conflict, the greater the need for external strictures. Underneath the piety, often lies a pervert waiting to come out.
53
20: No matter what percent of Americans are Christian, this is NOT a Christian nation. Yes, even if 99.99% of Americans are Christian, this is still—fundamentally—a secular nation. There is no state religion. There is no requirement to attend church. Our constitution forbids a religious test to determine eligibility to hold office.
Why do we need a Christian spokesman speaking at a secular ceremony, anyway?
Why do we need a Christian spokesman speaking at a secular ceremony, anyway?
54
@53
gotta admire your math and reasoning skill, big ben.
you must work for 'No on Prop 8'.
(could we have our $37 million back?)
gotta admire your math and reasoning skill, big ben.
you must work for 'No on Prop 8'.
(could we have our $37 million back?)
55
Would you please doublecheck your research and take at least the porn quote off this site? If you take the porn part and put it into a search engine, you will discover that it was not even said by Warren, but by another pastor altogether.
Didn't the fact that it said "wife Sherry" raise a red flag? After all, a quick search at Wikipedia or any other informational site would show you that Rick Warren's wife's name is not Sherry.
This type of outright lying does not help your cause. It only makes you look dumb.
-JulieF
Didn't the fact that it said "wife Sherry" raise a red flag? After all, a quick search at Wikipedia or any other informational site would show you that Rick Warren's wife's name is not Sherry.
This type of outright lying does not help your cause. It only makes you look dumb.
-JulieF
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