Slog
News & ArtsFriday, December 12, 2008
Politics Senate Republicans to the Automobile Industry: Drop Dead
Posted by Christopher Frizzelle on Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 12:27 AM
The failure to reach agreement on Capitol Hill raised a specter of financial collapse for General Motors and Chrysler, which say they may not be able to survive through this month....
“It’s over with,” the Senate majority leader, Harry Reid of Nevada, said on the Senate floor, after it was clear that a deal could not be reached. “I dread looking at Wall Street tomorrow. It’s not going to be a pleasant sight.”
Mr. Reid added: “This is going to be a very, very bad Christmas for a lot of people as a result of what takes place here tonight.”
2
Message from this Seattle mostly-liberal guy to Auto Industry: Drop Dead. American car makers have been unable to sell cars and make money in the richest, most car country crazy on the planet and we're supposed to bail them out? Fuck that. As soon as UAW members give up their $30 an hour starting wage, maybe I'll be ready to start listening to some bailout talk. Until then, fuck them too.
3
Bush/Paulson will provide the money from the earlier bailout package. Do they want to? No. But will they do so to avoid wholesale carnage one month prior to leaving town? Yes.
4
Who the fuck wants to buy an American car? Not this guy. I've been reading car magazines like Road & Track, Motor Trend, and Car and Driver since I was 12 in 1989. I've never heard a convincing argument in favor of a 'Murrican car since then. This business model and design school has been dying since well before then. I'm not proud that my country is going to be in the shitter soon, but hey, we did it to ourselves. You think Joe the Riveter is really proud of the Hummers, Oldsmobiles, Buicks, Cavaliers, Cirruses, Aspens, Azteks, Neons, PT Cruisers, Camaros and Avalanches he's been building all these years? Fuck that. He drives a fucking Corolla.
5
You know, I am not bright enough to know which way is the right decision regarding the bail out, but the fact that the Republicans are using this opportunity to try to crush the unions in this country makes me want to give the big three more money than they asked for.
There is something fishy going on when rich desk jockeys keep their jobs and salaries while Wall Street gets bailed out; meanwhile, the working man, whose companies are asking for a fraction of the money the financial companies got, were kicked in the ass and shown the door by Republican Senators, unless the workers all but disband the UAW.
There is something fishy going on when rich desk jockeys keep their jobs and salaries while Wall Street gets bailed out; meanwhile, the working man, whose companies are asking for a fraction of the money the financial companies got, were kicked in the ass and shown the door by Republican Senators, unless the workers all but disband the UAW.
8
I think the Republicans ultimately have it right. Unless there is fundamental change in these companies (management and union contracts), throwing money in their direction is a waste. Management can be fired. The unions have said they will not entertain wage concessions. Just like at Eastern Airlines, the union workers prefer to take their companies down rather than take any reduction in their very healthy wages.
9
When John McCain stopped his campaign to orchestrate a bailout -- SLOGers villified him.
When Republicans stepped in to stop a bailout -- SLOGers heaped calumny on them.
Seattle Lib nincompoops -- wanting it both ways...as always.
When John McCain stopped his campaign to orchestrate a bailout -- SLOGers villified him.
When Republicans stepped in to stop a bailout -- SLOGers heaped calumny on them.
Seattle Lib nincompoops -- wanting it both ways...as always.
11
@2 & others
The UAW is not the problem here; the problem here is that the American auto industry has been cutting corners on re-engineering and retooling for 40 years; so they've been getting by selling impractical novelty cars since the '70s and now they're going to pay for it.
The wage that auto workers demand is a career wage for skilled workers in the American labor market.
The biggest problem with the American auto industry is the same problem that applies to all American industry; American workers are expensive compared to workers in other countries. American environmental regulations are expensive to work under, compared to the environmental regulations in other countries. It's impossible for American industry to compete with foreign industry in American markets -- let alone foreign markets -- unless we either abandon our standards and aspire to Chinese-style labor exploitation and resource destruction, or protect our native industries with reciprocal trade agreements that force countries like China to equalize costs against our labor and environmental standards if they want to sell in our markets. Which would mostly cause them to drop out our markets.
Which would be all kinds of trouble, but the disaster we're facing now is the alternative, so I'm inclined to believe we should take the trouble while we can.
Ah, but don't mind me. Quick! Find a bad guy to blame!
The UAW is not the problem here; the problem here is that the American auto industry has been cutting corners on re-engineering and retooling for 40 years; so they've been getting by selling impractical novelty cars since the '70s and now they're going to pay for it.
The wage that auto workers demand is a career wage for skilled workers in the American labor market.
The biggest problem with the American auto industry is the same problem that applies to all American industry; American workers are expensive compared to workers in other countries. American environmental regulations are expensive to work under, compared to the environmental regulations in other countries. It's impossible for American industry to compete with foreign industry in American markets -- let alone foreign markets -- unless we either abandon our standards and aspire to Chinese-style labor exploitation and resource destruction, or protect our native industries with reciprocal trade agreements that force countries like China to equalize costs against our labor and environmental standards if they want to sell in our markets. Which would mostly cause them to drop out our markets.
Which would be all kinds of trouble, but the disaster we're facing now is the alternative, so I'm inclined to believe we should take the trouble while we can.
Ah, but don't mind me. Quick! Find a bad guy to blame!
12
@11
The UAW has something to do with it; Honda, Subaru, and other automakers are using non-union labor and therefore don't have to factor in cushy retirement plans and high base pay into their bottom line.
The UAW has something to do with it; Honda, Subaru, and other automakers are using non-union labor and therefore don't have to factor in cushy retirement plans and high base pay into their bottom line.
14
@11: Your environmental regulation arguments don't apply to EU countries, who have some of the world's toughest regs. (ever heard of REACH? No? http://assets.panda.org/downloads/reachi… )
I do agree that US auto companies can't be competitive with those in sane countries until we decouple our health insurance from our employment. Otherwise, we will continue to pay a huge premium for worker health care when buying our cars.
I do agree that US auto companies can't be competitive with those in sane countries until we decouple our health insurance from our employment. Otherwise, we will continue to pay a huge premium for worker health care when buying our cars.
17
re: story headline
Frizzle- get a clue!
don't be a tool of the Democrats forever
actual headline:
UAW to the Automoblie Industry:Drop Dead
Frizzle- get a clue!
don't be a tool of the Democrats forever
actual headline:
UAW to the Automoblie Industry:Drop Dead
18
The deal fell apart because unions wouldn't budge an inch. They ,make the Republicans case that as long as the unions insist on business as usual nothing else will help the auto industry.
1 Declare bankruptcy.
2 Flush the UAW.
3 Start over.
1 Declare bankruptcy.
2 Flush the UAW.
3 Start over.
19
This is the first time in a long time that I find myself in agreement with the republicans in congress. Thomas Friedman had a great analogy for this bailout in his column on Wednesday: it would be like bailing out the typewriter companies at the dawn of the personal computer. GM, Chrysler (management and unions) have sealed their own fate and I see no reason to reward their behavior. The world is changing without them and no amount of money (now or later) is going to save them.
20
Republicans are union busting. The unions agreed to make sacrifices. If you notice, southern Republicans have Japanese auto companies working in their states, so they stand to profit if American companies go under. To me, this is treason. Republicans have shown how un-American they really are and how low they can go. We will all pay.
21
All you pathetic little sheep who are bitching about the unions better hope someone intelligent steps in and saves this thing. Or else when you're standing in the food bank line (because this WILL have an echo effect that will carry well over into our little high-tech enclave) you will wish you had been smart and brave enough to unionize.
And when you're old and eating cat food you'll think about the days you made money and really REALLY wish you'd been smart and brave enough to unionize.
And when you're old and eating cat food you'll think about the days you made money and really REALLY wish you'd been smart and brave enough to unionize.
22
Oh my, I can see the big thinkers are out in force this morning. It's good to know that a complete lack of knowledge of a situation doesn't stop some people. All they need is a scapegoat, and a simple-minded solution, and all is fine. That's what I call plucky!
And an extra-special gold star to the one who cited Milton Friedman. After all, it was he and his fellow braintrusters who bought us this current economy. It's nice to see someone who still finds him relevant.
And an extra-special gold star to the one who cited Milton Friedman. After all, it was he and his fellow braintrusters who bought us this current economy. It's nice to see someone who still finds him relevant.
23
Oops, sorry. Thomas Friedman. Not Milton. Still a major tool though. "Lexus and the Olive Tree" is as big of a pipe dream as anything of Rand's, only without the rapes and romance novel underpinnings.
24
To all the "liberals" who are supporting the failure of the American auto industry and unions:
I HOPE that you lose your jobs and that you and your families suffer terribly as a result. Now that will be something to celebrate!
I HOPE that you lose your jobs and that you and your families suffer terribly as a result. Now that will be something to celebrate!
25
If we had nationalized health care this would be a non-issue. GM is paying out health care benefits at a ratio of 3 to 1 in favor of retired workers vs active workers.
26
@21 - It takes neither brains nor bravery to unionize. All it takes is the insecurity to negotiate for yourself and the realization that your job is very replaceable.
27
@26: Fuck you. Seriously. You're proposing that people should get exploited so that the assholes that put us in this mess can bail out with a golden parachute.
When all else fails, Republicans will NEVER hesitate to blame problems on the poor, minorities, or blue-collar workers.
When all else fails, Republicans will NEVER hesitate to blame problems on the poor, minorities, or blue-collar workers.
28
@25 wins -- this is the actual answer.
This is why GM Europe will be just fine.
I presume all of you blaming the evil unions won't be lazily taking a weekend off from work...?
This is why GM Europe will be just fine.
I presume all of you blaming the evil unions won't be lazily taking a weekend off from work...?
29
The big powerful unions are cement shoes on American industry at a time when you must be nimble to survive (forget thrive). Prosperous industries can survive the bloodsucking for a while but eventually they all die (steel, airlines, now auto) The only 'industries' where unions remain viable are those that are not actual businesses, Teachers and government employees, who survive by sticking up the taxpayer (with an assist from the Democratic Party)
30
Wow. The anti-union trolls are out in force this morning. I wonder how much these people get paid to post on blogs like this.
31
@25 - you beat me. I was about to say that. The difference between Japan, Germany and the US is that they have national health care as well as a national pension program. In other words, people are taxed alot for it but benefit from it later in life. Unfortunately, it's not like that in this country. If we had national health care in addition to a better social security program (again this involves raising the taxes of 250K+, which Republicans HATE thinking about), Unionized workers wouldn't start out making 30/hr and probably start out at 10-12USD/hr less.
The Republicans basically want the Unions to forgo the healthcare and pensions so that people are on their own when they're sick or when they get old. Basically the Republicans don't give a shit out the people, just about the corps and investors who fund their elections.
The Republicans basically want the Unions to forgo the healthcare and pensions so that people are on their own when they're sick or when they get old. Basically the Republicans don't give a shit out the people, just about the corps and investors who fund their elections.
32
30
"it burnses! it burnses!"-
the gollum-like liberal wailed as he held his hands over his ears.
the truth hurts, but it will set you free if you embrace it.
"it burnses! it burnses!"-
the gollum-like liberal wailed as he held his hands over his ears.
the truth hurts, but it will set you free if you embrace it.
33
True, the Repubs may have come out against the bailout, but what does it say about the ability for the Dems to get anything passed? Don't they have a slim majority?
34
This is a No Brain-er. Time for the Auto industry to push hard, REAL hard for Monorail and light rail systems. They will build the cars, the systems, the infrastructure just like they did with the road system. Easy fix.
35
Union busters... oh please.
The big 3 have been building less reliable cars that get worse milage than the Japanese and European competitors for 30 years. How is that the UAW's fault?
The big 3 built a business model around selling profitable gas guzzlers and ignoring small fuel efficient cars. Then oil went to $145 a barrel, and the sales of gas guzzlers went in the toilet. How is that the UAW's fault?
Then the credit market froze up. This makes it hard for consumers to get car loans. And it makes it hard for the big 3 to get business loans to bridge them over. How is this the UAW's fault?
The US is the only major country in the world that has no national health plan. Japanese and European companies don't have to pay medical for their employees because healthcare is provided by the government. How is this the UAW's fault?
The unions have almost nothing whatsoever to do with the predicament the US auto industry now finds itself in. And gutting the unions will do nothing to save the big 3.
The big 3 have been building less reliable cars that get worse milage than the Japanese and European competitors for 30 years. How is that the UAW's fault?
The big 3 built a business model around selling profitable gas guzzlers and ignoring small fuel efficient cars. Then oil went to $145 a barrel, and the sales of gas guzzlers went in the toilet. How is that the UAW's fault?
Then the credit market froze up. This makes it hard for consumers to get car loans. And it makes it hard for the big 3 to get business loans to bridge them over. How is this the UAW's fault?
The US is the only major country in the world that has no national health plan. Japanese and European companies don't have to pay medical for their employees because healthcare is provided by the government. How is this the UAW's fault?
The unions have almost nothing whatsoever to do with the predicament the US auto industry now finds itself in. And gutting the unions will do nothing to save the big 3.
38
Reverse Polarity -- Detroit auto workers are overpaid AND the companies are carrying too much in pension obligations. So, no, the UAW is not alone at fault, but it did its part to create the current mess.
The Slog's support for this bailout plan is frankly disgusting.
It now appears that Bush, who is wrong about pretty fucking much everything, will bail out GM and Chrysler using TARP funds. This ensures that this liberal will never, fucking EVER buy a car from one of those companies -- even an electric one.
The Slog's support for this bailout plan is frankly disgusting.
It now appears that Bush, who is wrong about pretty fucking much everything, will bail out GM and Chrysler using TARP funds. This ensures that this liberal will never, fucking EVER buy a car from one of those companies -- even an electric one.
39
@35
plus don't forget when the dog ate their homework.
What a bunch of malarkey.
excuses excuses excuses
Car companies that aren't mugged by the UAW do fine in America. UAW labor cost twice what other American auto workers receive.
UAW health benefits bankrupted the big three, now you want the taxpayers to pick up the tab?
no thanks
plus don't forget when the dog ate their homework.
What a bunch of malarkey.
excuses excuses excuses
Car companies that aren't mugged by the UAW do fine in America. UAW labor cost twice what other American auto workers receive.
UAW health benefits bankrupted the big three, now you want the taxpayers to pick up the tab?
no thanks
40
The Slog to American Manufacturers of Non-American Cars: Drop Dead.
Oh, and while we're on the subject of the Slog's approach to this subject -- it's been reliably reprehensible -- Senate Republicans didn't tell the "auto industry" to drop dead. GM and Chrysler are not the "auto industry". They're two particularly weak players in the auto industry.
When the federal government puts a business on life support, it deprives that business's competitors of the advantages they'd naturally enjoy because of their exercise of superior efficiency. Put another way: to aid GM workers is to fuck Toyota's American workforce.
Christopher Frizzelle is a sloppy thinker.
Oh, and while we're on the subject of the Slog's approach to this subject -- it's been reliably reprehensible -- Senate Republicans didn't tell the "auto industry" to drop dead. GM and Chrysler are not the "auto industry". They're two particularly weak players in the auto industry.
When the federal government puts a business on life support, it deprives that business's competitors of the advantages they'd naturally enjoy because of their exercise of superior efficiency. Put another way: to aid GM workers is to fuck Toyota's American workforce.
Christopher Frizzelle is a sloppy thinker.
41
Why don’t the auto companies declare bankruptcy, do some major restructuring over a two or three year period, and come out the other end leaner, meaner and ready to compete? If their business model is even remotely viable, this should be an option on the table (and if it’s not, then why would we throw money at them?).
The Wall Street bailout was intended to free up the credit markets so that financial institutions would start lending again and the economy wouldn’t come to a screeching halt (the degree to which it has achieved this is up for debate, of course). And, what, exactly is the auto industry bailout supposed to do? Best guess is it will prop them up in the short-term, but how will it make them viable in the long-term?
The airline companies all had to go through bankruptcy re-structuring processes (jury is still out on how viable these companies will be in the long-term, of course). So, how exactly is the auto industry different?
The Wall Street bailout was intended to free up the credit markets so that financial institutions would start lending again and the economy wouldn’t come to a screeching halt (the degree to which it has achieved this is up for debate, of course). And, what, exactly is the auto industry bailout supposed to do? Best guess is it will prop them up in the short-term, but how will it make them viable in the long-term?
The airline companies all had to go through bankruptcy re-structuring processes (jury is still out on how viable these companies will be in the long-term, of course). So, how exactly is the auto industry different?
42
Let Chrysler die, sell its few viable divisions, keep manufacturers of parts in business for ten years to supply current owners of Chrysler vehicles (idiots).
Take a controlling interest in Ford and GM with a bailout.
Fire the executives.
This is what would happen in a sane country. Unfortunately, we don't live in a sane country.
Take a controlling interest in Ford and GM with a bailout.
Fire the executives.
This is what would happen in a sane country. Unfortunately, we don't live in a sane country.
43
Um, you guys realize the UAW jobs are the only thing that needs to be saved, right? We don't need to save the executive jobs or the endless supply of Hummer H2's. Just the good union jobs. Getting rid of the UAW would make any bailout pointless.
44
you don't have to be anti-union to be anti-bailout. i'm glad the republicans stopped this even though i'm not 100% keen on the rationale. that said, the UAW should have been open to compromise, and there should have been prohibitions against golden parachutes, etc...
also funny is the pro-union sentiment. it's like criticizing america in texas. what?!?! what did you say about the union! how dare you! if you don't like unions, why don't you work on weekends! one can appreciate the past contributions of unions while still criticizing the role they play in modern america.
this discussion is almost like an abortion thread on a christian site.
also funny is the pro-union sentiment. it's like criticizing america in texas. what?!?! what did you say about the union! how dare you! if you don't like unions, why don't you work on weekends! one can appreciate the past contributions of unions while still criticizing the role they play in modern america.
this discussion is almost like an abortion thread on a christian site.
46
"Good. Let's let GM & Chrysler go belly-up, and sack all those lazy, over-paid, money-grubbing blue-collar unionistas - after all, what have labor unions EVER done for decent, hard-working, nose-to-the-grindstone computer programmers and municipal funds managers, eh?"
"Well, there's the eight hour work day."
"Oh. Yeah, yeah. They did give us that. Uh, that's true. Yeah."
"And weekends"
"Oh, yeah, weekends. Remember what the work week used to be like? Oh, right."
"Yeah. All right. I'll grant you the the eight-hour work day and weekends are two things that the unions have done."
"And workplace safety."
"Well, yeah. Obviously workplace safety. I mean, that goes without saying, don't it? But apart from the eight-hour workday, weekends, and workplace safety -- "
"Collective Bargaining."
"Health and retirement benefits."
"Yeah, yeah. All right. Fair enough."
"And protection from unfair disciplinary actions."
"Oh, yes. Yeah."
"A living wage."
"And upward mobility for the middle-class."
"All right, but apart from the eight-hour work day, paid vacations, weekends, workplace safety, collective bargaining, health and retirement benefits, worker protections, a living wage, and upward mobility for the middle-class - what have the unions ever done for us?"
"Well, there's the eight hour work day."
"Oh. Yeah, yeah. They did give us that. Uh, that's true. Yeah."
"And weekends"
"Oh, yeah, weekends. Remember what the work week used to be like? Oh, right."
"Yeah. All right. I'll grant you the the eight-hour work day and weekends are two things that the unions have done."
"And workplace safety."
"Well, yeah. Obviously workplace safety. I mean, that goes without saying, don't it? But apart from the eight-hour workday, weekends, and workplace safety -- "
"Collective Bargaining."
"Health and retirement benefits."
"Yeah, yeah. All right. Fair enough."
"And protection from unfair disciplinary actions."
"Oh, yes. Yeah."
"A living wage."
"And upward mobility for the middle-class."
"All right, but apart from the eight-hour work day, paid vacations, weekends, workplace safety, collective bargaining, health and retirement benefits, worker protections, a living wage, and upward mobility for the middle-class - what have the unions ever done for us?"
47
@43. I’m not sure “good union jobs” can continue to exist in their current form given the environment the US auto industry faces. Even the UAW has begun to realize that unless there are concessions made, the companies will fail and none of their workers will have jobs. The rationale is that it’s better to have a “mediocre union job” than no job at all.
50
@40
Don't be too hard on the girls at slug.
They aren't really journalist, they just play one on the internet.
Anytime the topic moves beyond depravity, perversion and institutional homosexual whining they are way over their heads.
Don't be too hard on the girls at slug.
They aren't really journalist, they just play one on the internet.
Anytime the topic moves beyond depravity, perversion and institutional homosexual whining they are way over their heads.
52
I should add to my earlier pessimistic posts and say that I think “good union jobs” can exist in other, new industries (many of the future green economy jobs that have been so highly touted) OR in some new iteration of the auto companies. But, if revolutionary change in their business model and/or products doesn’t happen, I think the “good union jobs” go away. And, I don’t see how the bailout helps them in this regard…
53
When unions get powerful they extort terms that are ruinous to their industry.
EVERYONE agrees concessions UAW forced on automakers were too lavish.
The piper is here to be paid.
If by "good union jobs" people mean jobs and benefits like UAW forced on Detriot then NO industry can survive that, the only question is how long they would linger before going bust.
The greed of powerful entrenched unions rivals that of Wall Street, with similar results.
EVERYONE agrees concessions UAW forced on automakers were too lavish.
The piper is here to be paid.
If by "good union jobs" people mean jobs and benefits like UAW forced on Detriot then NO industry can survive that, the only question is how long they would linger before going bust.
The greed of powerful entrenched unions rivals that of Wall Street, with similar results.
54
@51
Worker saftey, 8 hour workday, health benefits etc are not 'so 20th century'.
Extortionist unions are.
Try to keep up.
Worker saftey, 8 hour workday, health benefits etc are not 'so 20th century'.
Extortionist unions are.
Try to keep up.
55
It takes two parties to enter into a contract: Management and labor. If management is too STUPID or INCOMPETENT to know it's a bad contract, or to not enforce contractural obligations that they AGREED to, why is that labor's fault?
And for all the functional retards out there who think auto workers make $77 an hour, and that they don't pay into their pension plan, please pull your head out and do some research.
Lastly, if this industry fails, think of where that pension obligation is going to land. Think of all the tax revenue that will be lost. Not only sales tax, but property tax and social security tax.
Don't be a dumbass conservative. We can't afford shitheads like that anymore. We need to be adults now.
And for all the functional retards out there who think auto workers make $77 an hour, and that they don't pay into their pension plan, please pull your head out and do some research.
Lastly, if this industry fails, think of where that pension obligation is going to land. Think of all the tax revenue that will be lost. Not only sales tax, but property tax and social security tax.
Don't be a dumbass conservative. We can't afford shitheads like that anymore. We need to be adults now.
56
15
I agree that the UAW is the most coddled and catered to of all unions, except maybe the Teamsters, but without Unions the Republican voting owners would not give workers anything. No retirement, no health benefits, no nothing.
The Republicans are trying to bust the unions in hopes that, if successful, the owners will contribute heavily to Republican candidates in 2010 and 2012.
I agree that the UAW is the most coddled and catered to of all unions, except maybe the Teamsters, but without Unions the Republican voting owners would not give workers anything. No retirement, no health benefits, no nothing.
The Republicans are trying to bust the unions in hopes that, if successful, the owners will contribute heavily to Republican candidates in 2010 and 2012.
58
@27 - I didn't propose anything. All I said was that it doesn't take any formidable qualities to unionize.
59
@56 thats a fallacy. you don't know what would happen if the remaining 25% of workers who were unionized suddenly become un-unionized. we already live in a primarily un-unionized labor market
the one thing that I think needs to be a mandate for unions going forward is to push management not only on the benefits for employee but also push management to create sustainable business. it is in their member's best interest.
unions definitely have a role, but by and large they are losing that role because of technological improvement (thus leading to less skills needed), cheap international labor, and improved reliability of international transport. Back in the 20th century a union could exert market power because they had a monopoly on local labor. Take away that monopoly and you can see why unions are anachronistic in the way that most union supporters view them.
the one thing that I think needs to be a mandate for unions going forward is to push management not only on the benefits for employee but also push management to create sustainable business. it is in their member's best interest.
unions definitely have a role, but by and large they are losing that role because of technological improvement (thus leading to less skills needed), cheap international labor, and improved reliability of international transport. Back in the 20th century a union could exert market power because they had a monopoly on local labor. Take away that monopoly and you can see why unions are anachronistic in the way that most union supporters view them.
60
also any argument as to what unions HAVE done provides nothing in support for their place in the future. referencing 19th century labor reforms doesn't have any relevance to how unions operate now, or how our modern economy operates.
61
@55
If auto workers have been paying into their pension plan then I guess we don't have to worry about where that pension obligation is going to land.
I feel better already!
If auto workers have been paying into their pension plan then I guess we don't have to worry about where that pension obligation is going to land.
I feel better already!
62
@56. I would argue that the teachers unions are the most coddled and catered to, but I don't want to hijack the thread... :>
63
@60:
And just what exactly do you think is going to happen to all those "19th Century labor reforms" once unions are completely busted and pushed out of the picture?
The first thing will be that you can kiss all those worker benefits buh-bye, just as non-unionized employers in the South have pretty much already done, with the exception of those that are federally mandated.
"Welcome to the 21st Century Labor Market. Just like 19th Century Sweat-Shops - only newer!"
And just what exactly do you think is going to happen to all those "19th Century labor reforms" once unions are completely busted and pushed out of the picture?
The first thing will be that you can kiss all those worker benefits buh-bye, just as non-unionized employers in the South have pretty much already done, with the exception of those that are federally mandated.
"Welcome to the 21st Century Labor Market. Just like 19th Century Sweat-Shops - only newer!"
65
@63, I dont think theyre going anywhere because the leverage that unions have now is already weak. You think unions have a lot more power than they currently do. If 25% share of the labor market hasn't caused a collapse of those benefits I dont think a 50% drop from that number will change it.
And how much have unions done for ALL people, not just their dues paying members since the FAA debacle? one criticism that can be levied against the UAW and many other unions is that they are no longer societal advocates, merely they are membership based arbitrator corporations.
And how much have unions done for ALL people, not just their dues paying members since the FAA debacle? one criticism that can be levied against the UAW and many other unions is that they are no longer societal advocates, merely they are membership based arbitrator corporations.
66
@63
You are so right.
By all means let's borrow $ome more from the Chinese so we can keep paying those benefits.
You are so right.
By all means let's borrow $ome more from the Chinese so we can keep paying those benefits.
67
The powerful union SCREW the rest of America's workers (and even new workers in their own industries) in order to mantain the extravagent benefits for older existing members.
68
also, good thing harry reid isn't a stock trader or broker; the market has already priced in the failure of GM
71
That's not how ERISA works. The government will be on the hook for a tiny fraction of automakers' pension obligations, assuming that the burden doesn't completely crush the system and retired workers get left with nothing.
Lastly, if this industry fails, think of where that pension obligation is going to land. Think of all the tax revenue that will be lost.
That's not how ERISA works. The government will be on the hook for a tiny fraction of automakers' pension obligations, assuming that the burden doesn't completely crush the system and retired workers get left with nothing.
72
...aaand the first shoe drops:
"General Motors Corp., which is involved in a last-ditch effort to garner federal funds to help it survive through January, confirmed this morning that it is slashing approximately 250,000 units of production in the first quarter by shutting down most North American assembly plants for about 30 percent of the first quarter."
Read more here.
73
Bunch of spoiled brats.
Someone's going to get a spanking when Frat Boy leaves and Dad shows up.
That's for darned sure ...
Someone's going to get a spanking when Frat Boy leaves and Dad shows up.
That's for darned sure ...
75
@65:
See, that's the whole point: that 25% of the labor market that HAS union protections has had to fight tooth-and-nail to preserve every gain made over the last 75 or so years; while those industries or geographic areas where union solidarity has been eradicated have already seen most of those gains evaporate.
And of course with unions out of the picture at the federal level, the only ones holding the line against corporations, which will continue to press for even more workplace concessions, all in the name of "competitiveness" (read: increasing profitability at the expense of workers) will be a handful of elected officials, who will themselves be pressured to cave if they want to stay in office, since those same corporations will pour tens of millions of dollars into funding candidates who WILL give them everything they want, including significant roll-backs of federally mandated workplace health and safety regulations, Social Security and Medicare benefits, and anything else they can get away with - and all with absolutely NOTHING and NO ONE to stand in their way.
So, who's going to protect workers if they can't protect themselves?
As far as the pension issue goes, the biggest problem facing the auto industry is the fact that The Big Three have woefully under capitalized their pension plans - to the tune of 40 - 50% of the amount needed for long-term solvency. It's not that they didn't have the money to fully fund these plans, it's that over the past 20 or so years, they deliberately neglected to adequately fund them when they could have, and instead re-purposed tens of billions of dollars for things like executive benefits packages, advertising, paying lawyers to fight fuel-efficiency and safety standards, etc., etc.
Now the chickens have come home to roost, as it were, and the fiscal irresponsibility of the auto makers has come back to bite them in their collective asses. If they'd done the right thing in the first place, they wouldn't be in this situation today, but instead what will most likely happen is they'll be rewarded for their incompetence, while the workers, who in fact DID see the writing on the wall several years ago when they agreed to massive rollbacks in contracted benefits, will AGAIN take it in the shorts.
Of course, they're all just filthy, greedy Trotskyites anyway, right? Meanwhile the ENTIRELY BLAMELESS executives will hold onto their Golden Parachutes, their cushy corner offices, and their lucrative bonus packages, while those scum-sucking workers can just go fend for themselves in the soup lines, which is better than they deserve for having the audacity to not know their place, and the temerity to demand they share in the profits made as a result of their labor.
More...
See, that's the whole point: that 25% of the labor market that HAS union protections has had to fight tooth-and-nail to preserve every gain made over the last 75 or so years; while those industries or geographic areas where union solidarity has been eradicated have already seen most of those gains evaporate.
And of course with unions out of the picture at the federal level, the only ones holding the line against corporations, which will continue to press for even more workplace concessions, all in the name of "competitiveness" (read: increasing profitability at the expense of workers) will be a handful of elected officials, who will themselves be pressured to cave if they want to stay in office, since those same corporations will pour tens of millions of dollars into funding candidates who WILL give them everything they want, including significant roll-backs of federally mandated workplace health and safety regulations, Social Security and Medicare benefits, and anything else they can get away with - and all with absolutely NOTHING and NO ONE to stand in their way.
So, who's going to protect workers if they can't protect themselves?
As far as the pension issue goes, the biggest problem facing the auto industry is the fact that The Big Three have woefully under capitalized their pension plans - to the tune of 40 - 50% of the amount needed for long-term solvency. It's not that they didn't have the money to fully fund these plans, it's that over the past 20 or so years, they deliberately neglected to adequately fund them when they could have, and instead re-purposed tens of billions of dollars for things like executive benefits packages, advertising, paying lawyers to fight fuel-efficiency and safety standards, etc., etc.
Now the chickens have come home to roost, as it were, and the fiscal irresponsibility of the auto makers has come back to bite them in their collective asses. If they'd done the right thing in the first place, they wouldn't be in this situation today, but instead what will most likely happen is they'll be rewarded for their incompetence, while the workers, who in fact DID see the writing on the wall several years ago when they agreed to massive rollbacks in contracted benefits, will AGAIN take it in the shorts.
Of course, they're all just filthy, greedy Trotskyites anyway, right? Meanwhile the ENTIRELY BLAMELESS executives will hold onto their Golden Parachutes, their cushy corner offices, and their lucrative bonus packages, while those scum-sucking workers can just go fend for themselves in the soup lines, which is better than they deserve for having the audacity to not know their place, and the temerity to demand they share in the profits made as a result of their labor.
76
I'd argue that the real problem is that the union doesn't have enough power. We should nationalize the automakers and then convert 50% of shares to worker control. That cuts out the management that has been responsible for all the bad decision-making, and puts decision-making in the hands of the people most affected, as well as the broader public interest.
And offer the same deal to foreign automakers--recapitalization in exchange for shares owned by the US government, with 50% controlled by worker representatives. Then the workers can introduce common union-level pay across all American factories.
And offer the same deal to foreign automakers--recapitalization in exchange for shares owned by the US government, with 50% controlled by worker representatives. Then the workers can introduce common union-level pay across all American factories.
78
So, to summarize the conservative anti-union arguments: Incompetent, millionaire golden-parachute-having, private-jet-riding management = the very soul of American enterprise. Workers who earn enough to buy a house, put their kids through college, have medical coverage and retirement benefits = BREAKING THE BACK OF AMERICAN BUSINESS.
Oh, please. Same old argument we've been hearing for 100 years and then some. Very popular among the William Randolph Hearst set -- the people who publish the news that tells us that these things are so, in case you're paying attention.
Oh, please. Same old argument we've been hearing for 100 years and then some. Very popular among the William Randolph Hearst set -- the people who publish the news that tells us that these things are so, in case you're paying attention.
79
Republicans were fine with bailing out their bank buddies because those people make money simply by screwing around with other people's money. They create nothing of real-world value.
Republicans don't want to bail out the car companies because the majority of those who benefit will be people who actually PRODUCE something. God forbid we save the jobs of people who provide us with an actual product. Couldn't a 12 year old working 80 hours a week for $3 a day in China make it for us at a lower cost? And with only a minor reduction in the size of the polar caps??? And if that product is less than state of the art it's because of the assholes running the companies who for too long have provided not their best, but what they thought (mistakenly as it turns out) to be good enough.
It's just like taxes. Republicans don't want to tax capital gains because that's how the rich get super rich, that or thru compensation packages full of stock- the value of which is manipulated for their benefit. Poor guys who just work and get paid by the hour? They get hammered by the tax code in comparison
It figures the Republicans in the Senate would seize this (last?) opportunity to destroy unions in this country by holding the big three hostage. Instead let's pour our resources into saving AIG so all it's top execs can enjoy their $50,000 spa trips.
Republicans don't want to bail out the car companies because the majority of those who benefit will be people who actually PRODUCE something. God forbid we save the jobs of people who provide us with an actual product. Couldn't a 12 year old working 80 hours a week for $3 a day in China make it for us at a lower cost? And with only a minor reduction in the size of the polar caps??? And if that product is less than state of the art it's because of the assholes running the companies who for too long have provided not their best, but what they thought (mistakenly as it turns out) to be good enough.
It's just like taxes. Republicans don't want to tax capital gains because that's how the rich get super rich, that or thru compensation packages full of stock- the value of which is manipulated for their benefit. Poor guys who just work and get paid by the hour? They get hammered by the tax code in comparison
It figures the Republicans in the Senate would seize this (last?) opportunity to destroy unions in this country by holding the big three hostage. Instead let's pour our resources into saving AIG so all it's top execs can enjoy their $50,000 spa trips.
81
Could someone on this list please explain why the unions result in cars that get shitty gas mileage? Was selling of the Hummer and focusing on SUVs, rather than cheaper, more fuel efficient, *attractive* cars, was that somehow written into the union contract? I'm sorry -- I'm just a bit confused.
82
@81: Comment @11 has the best summary of this on this thread. Short answer: line workers make whatever cars they're told to make. Blaming the union for Detroit's bad decisions on what cars to push is a red herring -- the fact is the people making those arguments will seize on whatever justification for attacking unions they can and this one just happens to be handy.
83
82
and furthermore UAW workers were getting screwed by only getting paid $77 an hour-
they deserve MUCH MORE!
It's time for the taxpayers of America (89% of whom make less than UAW line workers) to pony up to keep the UAW gravy train flowing.
(and don't even THINK of showing your INGRATITUDE by complaining about the inevitable higher taxes, YOU CRETINS!)
and furthermore UAW workers were getting screwed by only getting paid $77 an hour-
they deserve MUCH MORE!
It's time for the taxpayers of America (89% of whom make less than UAW line workers) to pony up to keep the UAW gravy train flowing.
(and don't even THINK of showing your INGRATITUDE by complaining about the inevitable higher taxes, YOU CRETINS!)
84
There are two ways Senate Republicans could help the auto executives to bust the auto unions.
The first was to hold the bailout hostage to union concessions.
The second is to send it to bankruptcy so the union contracts (including retirement pensions) will become in-executable contracts.
Plan A didn't work. Plan B is proceeding as desired.
The first was to hold the bailout hostage to union concessions.
The second is to send it to bankruptcy so the union contracts (including retirement pensions) will become in-executable contracts.
Plan A didn't work. Plan B is proceeding as desired.
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