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News & ArtsTuesday, December 9, 2008
Film / Homo Why Is It Still News When Two Male Actors Kiss?
Posted by Erica C. Barnett on Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 2:42 PM
The Washington Post's Hank Steuver has a thing or two to say about men kissing. Specifically, straight men kissing on film, as James Franco and Sean Penn did in the movie Milk.
He isn't against it—as readers of the Stranger probably know, Steuver's gay—but he is getting pretty sick of listening to idiotic film writers ask straight actors... you know (snicker)... what was it like to kiss a GUY?
Wasn't it really difficult to kiss another man? Implied: Without throwing up, seeing as you're so obviously straight? What were you thinking as you kissed? Did you rehearse it? What was it liiiiiike?Underlying the questions (and the answers) is this notion that a gay kissing scene must be the worst Hollywood job hazard that a male actor could face, including stunt work, extreme weather or sitting through five hours of special-effects makeup every day.
Take, for example, this exchange on Letterman, quoted by Steuver:
"I didn't want to screw it up," Franco told Letterman on "Late Show" last week."See, if it's me, I'm kind of hoping I do screw it up," Letterman shot back. "That's what you want, isn't it?"
"To screw it up?" Franco asked.
"I mean, do you really want to be good at kissing a guy?" Letterman said as his audience howled with delight.
In one way, it's hard to believe this kind of casually homophobic machismo still exists. In a world where Katy Perry's "I Kissed a Girl" tops the charts, Lindsay Lohan's maybe-gayness spawns a rash of publicity-hungry copycats, and making out with your friends for men's titillation is a sex-ay college rite of passage, Steuver wonders, why are people still so freaked out when two straight guys suck face?
"No one ever asks Neil Patrick Harris what it's like to play a straight guy who sleeps with lots of women" on the sitcom "How I Met Your Mother," [Corey Scholibo, entertainment editor for the Advocate magazine] says. "No one ever asks him how 'gross' it is to kiss a woman."To answer this, Scholibo takes off his gay media hat and puts forth the biggest academic "duh" in cultural studies: "Everything in culture is rooted in the idea of masculinity, patriarchy . . . hegemony. You have to be disgusted by two men kissing, otherwise there goes [your] masculinity. If an actor were to say he enjoyed a scene where he kisses another man, then he's somehow less of a man."
And the answers actors routinely give to these questions don't do much to combat that idea:
Straight actors who've taken on gay roles usually give the same answer — a combination of disgust, bravado (resolving to get through it and earn their paycheck) and the sure-is-weird feeling of stubble not their own.
"Soon as they say 'cut,' you spit. You want to go to a strip bar or touch the makeup girls. You feel dirty. It's a tough job," Chris Potter, an actor in Showtime's "Queer as Folk," once told MSNBC. (Another actor from that show, Hal Sparks, was more circumspect: "Definitely there's an ick factor. It's a little bit like French-kissing your dad.")
Which makes me love James Franco even more. In response to Letterman's idiotic line of questioning, he responded, "If you wanted, I'd kiss you right now." And then he did.
1
Terri Gross interviewed Franco a few weeks back on this very issue. Normally I roll my eyes at the obnoxious homophobia in such a topic, but Gross and Franco handled the "whats it like kissing a guy, especially Sean Penn" surprisingly well.
3
Can we just put a moratorium on all "what was it like to kiss so-and-so questions"? Even the ones posed to straight actors kissing straight people? They are stupid in all forms.
4
Wait, how is this homophobia? I mean, there's a good way to ask it, and a bad way. And admittedly it's one of those stupid lines of questioning regardless of gender... But, seriously, it would be really weird and gross feeling for me to kiss another guy... And believe me, that's not homophobic, it's quite normal.
6
Ugh, thank you for reminding me of Potter's oh-so-wonderful contribution to QAF. *sarcasm* So glad he was gone after the first season.
It's interesting how often this question of "What's it like?" comes up, especially from male interviewers. There seems to be this natural curiousity to the whole thing, but it's frequently repressed by built-in masculine role assignment. I see it as a conflict between social identity and natural impulse. The fact that Franco is able to break out of that cycle, as an actor, is refreshing, but I don't see it as an indication that suddenly every male actor who kisses another male actor is going to be as enlightened. We'll still have the dumbshits to act in some form of disgust.
And do you really find it hard to believe that this casual, macho-fueled homophobia continues to exist, Erica? Does it really surprise you that there is a double standard between queer men and women? Or are you just trying to stir the pot for the sake of conversation?
It's interesting how often this question of "What's it like?" comes up, especially from male interviewers. There seems to be this natural curiousity to the whole thing, but it's frequently repressed by built-in masculine role assignment. I see it as a conflict between social identity and natural impulse. The fact that Franco is able to break out of that cycle, as an actor, is refreshing, but I don't see it as an indication that suddenly every male actor who kisses another male actor is going to be as enlightened. We'll still have the dumbshits to act in some form of disgust.
And do you really find it hard to believe that this casual, macho-fueled homophobia continues to exist, Erica? Does it really surprise you that there is a double standard between queer men and women? Or are you just trying to stir the pot for the sake of conversation?
7
this shouldnt be news, but nor should it be something you waste time getting angry about. its not pleasurable to kiss another guy when your not attracted to him. its weird. and it doesnt help the movement towards ridding the world of homophobia by calling out straight guys for saying its weird to kiss another guy. its one of those 'no shit' moments where the actor is most likely not going to answer blandly with the politically correct "it was just a kiss in a scene like any other". not liking gay things is not at all the same as being homophobic.
further, jay leno is a comedian, and his interviews are not meant to provide insight or fascinating commentary on his subjects. its stupid, its funny, and if you dont like it its perfectly fine.
pick your battles with real, harmful homophobes, not jay leno and his stupid jokes.
further, jay leno is a comedian, and his interviews are not meant to provide insight or fascinating commentary on his subjects. its stupid, its funny, and if you dont like it its perfectly fine.
pick your battles with real, harmful homophobes, not jay leno and his stupid jokes.
9
As Laurence Olivier said to Dustin Hoffman ("Marathon Man") - "My dear boy, it's called acting!" - after Hoffman had stayed up all night to get strung out for his dental drilling scene.
Honestly, I think that Letterman and others of his hetero feckless ilk go for the 'nads because they are consumed with queer curiosity, seeking some comprehension of their own inner fag.
As in what would John Wayne do, Mary?
Honestly, I think that Letterman and others of his hetero feckless ilk go for the 'nads because they are consumed with queer curiosity, seeking some comprehension of their own inner fag.
As in what would John Wayne do, Mary?
10
@7 You seem kind of new to Slog, so let me be the first to point out that there's about as much of a chance that ECB will pick her battles as there is that hell will freeze over. And most of us here don't even believe in hell, if that gives you a sense of the odds...
11
Realistically, if you're good at kissing, then you're good at kissing. If you're bad at kissing guys, you'll be bad at kissing girls too. Why would you want to be bad at kissing?
12
If Katy Perry's "I Kissed a Girl" is a high water mark in the struggle for gay rights, we're screwed.
13
Yeah, but Katy makes everyone want to kiss her.
Personally, the whole "OMG kissing" thing is so Bollywood.
Personally, the whole "OMG kissing" thing is so Bollywood.
14
I don't think the argument here is that any straight male actor is expected to *like* kissing another male actor. The argument is that it's part of his job, and should be approached as such.
I'm an actor. I've kissed guys onstage. And it doesn't feel like kissing a woman does to me (more like giving CPR to a dummy). But y'know what? I've done a ton of things onstage that are less-than-comfortable. And I'm better man for those experiences.
So yeah, the correct answer is the bland "It was just a kiss scene," though Franco gets props for coming up with a clever, interesting way to say just that.
I'm an actor. I've kissed guys onstage. And it doesn't feel like kissing a woman does to me (more like giving CPR to a dummy). But y'know what? I've done a ton of things onstage that are less-than-comfortable. And I'm better man for those experiences.
So yeah, the correct answer is the bland "It was just a kiss scene," though Franco gets props for coming up with a clever, interesting way to say just that.
15
Erica,
I'm not sure but I recall reading that Will Smith wouldn't do a full on kiss with counterpart Anthony Michael Hall (?) in the film "6 Degrees of Separation". Apparently, he just couldn't do it. I saw the movie. He came close but the "kiss" wasn't in the film.
I'm not sure but I recall reading that Will Smith wouldn't do a full on kiss with counterpart Anthony Michael Hall (?) in the film "6 Degrees of Separation". Apparently, he just couldn't do it. I saw the movie. He came close but the "kiss" wasn't in the film.
16
James Franco purrpurr. It's fun to read how actors deal with, you know, how to act. Some are more into it than others, and wind up working with Gus Van Sant, while teevee is the best some lucky slackers will ever get, not that they're embittered about it I'm sure.
And geez, I love that ECB doesn't pick her battles - the lack of caution is bracing, and leaves plenty for the Monday-morning quarterbacks of Slog to dink around with.
And geez, I love that ECB doesn't pick her battles - the lack of caution is bracing, and leaves plenty for the Monday-morning quarterbacks of Slog to dink around with.
17
@16 "I love that ECB doesn't pick her battles"
Hey man, no argument there. Just 'cause I pointed it out to a newbie doesn't mean I don't secretly love it.
Hey man, no argument there. Just 'cause I pointed it out to a newbie doesn't mean I don't secretly love it.
18
Katy Perry's song has pretty much nothing to do with female homosexuality. Listen to it again, and this time pay attention.
20
i know this will fall on deaf ears, but please try to be more catuious about which fights you pick. when you complain about trivial matters like this, you help foster the belief amongst true homophobes that gay rights (in this case) are trivial matters (ditto feminism, btw), and that gay rights activists are a bunch of shrill, humorless crybabies. you also waste time and energy on a pointless debate (letterman is not a homophobe. for fucks sake.) when there are legitimate debates to be had. you're not winning any hearts and minds here.
21
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22
I'm 100% gay and I didn't find the experience of kissing a woman gross at all. Although it wasn't sexually pleasurable I still enjoyed it.
About the double standard...when Susan Sarandon made The Hunger she was asked by the director if she wanted the movie to show that she was drunk during the sex scene with Catherine Deneuve. She said: What? It's friggin Catherine Deneuve...why would I want to be drunk?!?!
About the double standard...when Susan Sarandon made The Hunger she was asked by the director if she wanted the movie to show that she was drunk during the sex scene with Catherine Deneuve. She said: What? It's friggin Catherine Deneuve...why would I want to be drunk?!?!
23
"In response to Letterman's idiotic line of questioning, he responded, "If you wanted, I'd kiss you right now." And then he did."
FUCKING A!
FUCKING A!
24
@10 didn't know that was so obvious, kinda weird. and point taken
@20 thank you for making my point in a much more coherent/persuasive way
@20 thank you for making my point in a much more coherent/persuasive way
25
@ 20 -- are you gay? because i don't think this is a "trivial" matter. it might not be as important the economy, but it's still a form of homophobia.
ever since prop 8, i've seen so many suggestions about picking our battles. my battle is equality. and everytime someone says someone about these things, they ARE winning my heart and mind.
thanks erica, thanks dan -- thanks to all of you who keep talking about this.
(and i agree -- letterman is NOT homophobic, but his comment was kind of dumb -- just like saying "gay" when you mean stupid.)
ever since prop 8, i've seen so many suggestions about picking our battles. my battle is equality. and everytime someone says someone about these things, they ARE winning my heart and mind.
thanks erica, thanks dan -- thanks to all of you who keep talking about this.
(and i agree -- letterman is NOT homophobic, but his comment was kind of dumb -- just like saying "gay" when you mean stupid.)
26
Good post, Dan.
It does seem slight to some people (including many of the commenters here), and on an individual level, it often is. It obviously isn't on a societal level, and it's worth addressing. Sometimes when we see people's (overt) homophobia as incomprehensible, it's because we haven't considered all the "trivial" instances of homophobia that contribute to a large-scale environment.
It does seem slight to some people (including many of the commenters here), and on an individual level, it often is. It obviously isn't on a societal level, and it's worth addressing. Sometimes when we see people's (overt) homophobia as incomprehensible, it's because we haven't considered all the "trivial" instances of homophobia that contribute to a large-scale environment.
27
Funny, they never ask actors what it was like playing a serial killer, or a lawyer, or a steelworker, or anything else they're not. Oh well.
28
#27, they ask those inane questions all the time. You're not watching enough Entertainment Tonight.
29
This film promotes homosexuality as normal and would not have been released if but for the election of the Marxist homosexual Barack Hussein Osama.
Americans who consider themselves traditionalists should boycott this movie, the actors in it, and the people who pay money to see it.
Otherwise, look for America to turn into one gigantic gay bar!
Americans who consider themselves traditionalists should boycott this movie, the actors in it, and the people who pay money to see it.
Otherwise, look for America to turn into one gigantic gay bar!
30
@25, yes i'm gay. and you clearly do not understand the meaning of the term "winning hearts and minds." if you're gay, you don't need to be won over; if you're straight and indifferent (or hostile) towards gay rights, you do. and while i think it would be fan-fucking-tastic if nobody ever said anything that could be even remotely construed as homophobic, i am willing to accept such mild transgressions in exchange for, say, not having to worry about getting fired and/or murdered for being gay. priorities, y'all.
31
@Lord Basil, then everyone would STILL want to come to this country, because everyone knows the music is better at gay bars.
32
I don't really think this is about homosexuality, seeing as we'd all be drooling and clapping if this was two attractive actresses.
It's more about perceptions of masculinity.
And really, no one would be asking 'what was it like' if the guys were actually gay... The most appropriate comparison is when a pretty actress takes an 'ugly' role...
Women are supposed to be pretty(in the common sense of the term), and men are supposed to be masculine(in the common sense of the term).
It all comes down to misconceptions about gender roles, even this so-called 'homophobia.'
It's more about perceptions of masculinity.
And really, no one would be asking 'what was it like' if the guys were actually gay... The most appropriate comparison is when a pretty actress takes an 'ugly' role...
Women are supposed to be pretty(in the common sense of the term), and men are supposed to be masculine(in the common sense of the term).
It all comes down to misconceptions about gender roles, even this so-called 'homophobia.'
33
I think the ick factor is still homophobia, albeit a rather benign manifestation of it. And, sadly, it will probably be one of the last manifestations of homophobia to fade away.
Meanwhile, I'll keep on kissing guys, and enjoying it, even if the stubble IS a little scratchy...
Meanwhile, I'll keep on kissing guys, and enjoying it, even if the stubble IS a little scratchy...
36
How desperate would an actor have to be, to take a role on Queer as Folk, when the idea of kissing another man repulses him?! Fucking dicks.
37
--"No one ever asks Neil Patrick Harris what it's like to play a straight guy who sleeps with lots of women" on the sitcom "How I Met Your Mother," [Corey Scholibo, entertainment editor for the Advocate magazine] says. "No one ever asks him how 'gross' it is to kiss a woman."--
I was under the impression that he got asked this all the time.
I was under the impression that he got asked this all the time.
38
KISSING IS SHEER EROTIC PLEASURE.
GET IT.
GO FOR ALL YOU CAN GET AND HANDLE AND ENJOY.
I AM THE BEST KISSER IN SEATTLE, HAVE BEEN TOLD BY MANY MEN AND WOMEN OVER THE LAST 15 YEARS.
AND BECOMING EXPERT WAS ONE HELL OF A STUDY SESSION.
I PREFER GUYS, LESS SLOP OR SOMETHING AND BETTER TASTE IN GENERAL. GAY OR STRAIGHT WHO CARES, GET SOME GOOD BITES, TONGUE AND SUCKING CHEEK AND NOSE FLICKERS.
SWEET SLOW EYE LICKS ANYONE, THEN THE EARS ....
AFTER SOME FACE TO FACE ACTION FOR TEN MINUTES OR SO, I HAVE YET TO REACH DOWN AND FIND A DICK THAT WAS NOT ROCK HARD ..... SO ......
GET IT.
GO FOR ALL YOU CAN GET AND HANDLE AND ENJOY.
I AM THE BEST KISSER IN SEATTLE, HAVE BEEN TOLD BY MANY MEN AND WOMEN OVER THE LAST 15 YEARS.
AND BECOMING EXPERT WAS ONE HELL OF A STUDY SESSION.
I PREFER GUYS, LESS SLOP OR SOMETHING AND BETTER TASTE IN GENERAL. GAY OR STRAIGHT WHO CARES, GET SOME GOOD BITES, TONGUE AND SUCKING CHEEK AND NOSE FLICKERS.
SWEET SLOW EYE LICKS ANYONE, THEN THE EARS ....
AFTER SOME FACE TO FACE ACTION FOR TEN MINUTES OR SO, I HAVE YET TO REACH DOWN AND FIND A DICK THAT WAS NOT ROCK HARD ..... SO ......
39
OKay...after reading this, all I (a gay ex-mormon) want to go do is kiss another guy. I don't know about everyone else, but it's pretty masculine when I'm locking lips.
40
"I think the ick factor is still homophobia"
No. It's not. It's a matter of personal taste. I have a taste for women, and a sweeping distaste for men and even for certain types of women I happen to find unattractive. There are some women who I'd avoid kissing just as much as I would men.
As a matter of fact, there is huge variety of people/things I would prefer not to kiss, and would get an 'ick factor' from. I'm not attracted to the mentally retarded, for instance. Is this due to some kind of deep-seeded 'phobia' of the handicapped? No.
I'm pretty fond of my family too, and the 'ick factor' from the thought of kissing them certainly doesn't imply a 'phobia.' It's just whatever it is that dictates attraction in people... And zero guys do it for me.
If every off-hand remark about anything that pertains to your taste in sexual partners becomes 'homophobia,' the term will start to lose meaning. It's already started...
No. It's not. It's a matter of personal taste. I have a taste for women, and a sweeping distaste for men and even for certain types of women I happen to find unattractive. There are some women who I'd avoid kissing just as much as I would men.
As a matter of fact, there is huge variety of people/things I would prefer not to kiss, and would get an 'ick factor' from. I'm not attracted to the mentally retarded, for instance. Is this due to some kind of deep-seeded 'phobia' of the handicapped? No.
I'm pretty fond of my family too, and the 'ick factor' from the thought of kissing them certainly doesn't imply a 'phobia.' It's just whatever it is that dictates attraction in people... And zero guys do it for me.
If every off-hand remark about anything that pertains to your taste in sexual partners becomes 'homophobia,' the term will start to lose meaning. It's already started...
41
So, not to be gossipy (okay, yes to be gossipy), but a friend of mine went to school with Franco and she assures me he's gay. There may be a little more to his response to Letterman than you might think.
(Really not making this up)
(Really not making this up)
43
Bellevue Ave @42: Yes. Gay men who are "grossed out by vagina" are exhibiting misogyny. A non-misogynist would be in a neutral place with the vagina.
44
@43, I think you're wrong. It's impossible to disassociate yourself with the sexuality of the human body. Being 'grossed out' when sexual/anatomical images are seen is probably a byproduct of imagining yourself involved somehow. There was a neat episode of Nova about that...
Seeing someone's distended lower intestine is generally considered gross to the average person, but not to all. Are you exhibiting some form of discrimination when you're grossed out by that? I'm not. I don't dislike someone or even judge them based on what they find sexually attractive.
Besides, being grossed out by a guy's asshole, (and not a woman's), isn't going to be homophobic anyway. It'd somehow be anti-male, according to your judgement, since it'd be the inverse of the 'misogyny' you referred to.
I like pale skin, for instance. Not tan, not black, not brown... Does that make me a racist? I should hope not! Just because I'm not inclined to fuck someone doesn't mean I necessarily view them as worth less than what I am sexually attracted to.
Seeing someone's distended lower intestine is generally considered gross to the average person, but not to all. Are you exhibiting some form of discrimination when you're grossed out by that? I'm not. I don't dislike someone or even judge them based on what they find sexually attractive.
Besides, being grossed out by a guy's asshole, (and not a woman's), isn't going to be homophobic anyway. It'd somehow be anti-male, according to your judgement, since it'd be the inverse of the 'misogyny' you referred to.
I like pale skin, for instance. Not tan, not black, not brown... Does that make me a racist? I should hope not! Just because I'm not inclined to fuck someone doesn't mean I necessarily view them as worth less than what I am sexually attracted to.
45
Aren't you confusing the fear of homosexuality in general with the fear of having a homosexual encounter?
The reason this is "shocking" is that most men, gay or straight, have a strong and rigid sense of sexual identity that makes kissing the unpreferred gender pretty damn aversive. It would be just as provocative (for me at least) to see a gay man french kissing a woman as it is to see two straight guys going at it.
The reason this is "shocking" is that most men, gay or straight, have a strong and rigid sense of sexual identity that makes kissing the unpreferred gender pretty damn aversive. It would be just as provocative (for me at least) to see a gay man french kissing a woman as it is to see two straight guys going at it.
46
#43
BAH - that is an old answer worked out by PC ladies - gay men have NO interest in the vagina - that is it - and it is aboaut the same for lesbians and their interest in cocks ....
On of the interesting dynamics in a straight male culture is the gold plated lady crotch thing - the value in marriage, religion etc. - of the vagina.
Gay men say, who cares ... sorry ... who cares... you have one, use it and enjoy ...
BAH - that is an old answer worked out by PC ladies - gay men have NO interest in the vagina - that is it - and it is aboaut the same for lesbians and their interest in cocks ....
On of the interesting dynamics in a straight male culture is the gold plated lady crotch thing - the value in marriage, religion etc. - of the vagina.
Gay men say, who cares ... sorry ... who cares... you have one, use it and enjoy ...
47
Guys, this article isn't about whether not wanting to kiss a guy is homophobic. It's about the constant need that straight guys have to let everyone in the room know they don't wan't to kiss a guy. You straight guys need to stop defending your asses all the time and start thinking about it from the someone else's point of view. If you're gay, it's humiliating to constantly hear how disgusting it is for a man to kiss a man. Saying it over and over doesn't make you a homophobe, it makes you an a$$hole.
48
The examples you give from pop culture of people being okay with homosexuality are all girls kissing girls.
I think the problem is sexism more than homophobia, or it's some combination of the two. When a guy wants to kiss another guy it's like he's taking on the role of a girl and stepping down; when a girl kisses a girl it's like she's stepping up.
Hasn't that difference always bugged you? Annie Hall was always way cool, but Monty Python and the kids in the hall make half their jokes just about dressing up as women.
I think the problem is sexism more than homophobia, or it's some combination of the two. When a guy wants to kiss another guy it's like he's taking on the role of a girl and stepping down; when a girl kisses a girl it's like she's stepping up.
Hasn't that difference always bugged you? Annie Hall was always way cool, but Monty Python and the kids in the hall make half their jokes just about dressing up as women.
49
David Letterman lives in an ancient heterosexual parallel universe and the best thing he could ever hope for in his life lived with blinders is to have a hot stud like James Franco stick his tongue down his throat.
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