Sunday, December 7, 2008
News This Doesn't Happen in Sane Countries
Posted by Dan Savage on Sun, Dec 7, 2008 at 1:06 PM
NYT:
Starla D. Darling, 27, was pregnant when she learned that her insurance coverage was about to end. She rushed to the hospital, took a medication to induce labor and then had an emergency Caesarean section, in the hope that her Blue Cross and Blue Shield plan would pay for the delivery.... Ms. Darling [is] among 275 people who worked at an Archway cookie factory here in north central Ohio. The company provided excellent health benefits. But the plant shut down abruptly this fall, leaving workers without coverage, like millions of people battered by the worst economic crisis since the Depression....
Ms. Darling, who was pregnant when her insurance ran out, worked at Archway for eight years, and her father, Franklin J. Phillips, worked there for 24 years.
“When I heard that I was losing my insurance,” she said, “I was scared. I remember that the bill for my son’s delivery in 2005 was about $9,000, and I knew I would never be able to pay that by myself.”
So Ms. Darling asked her midwife to induce labor two days before her health insurance expired.
“I was determined that we were getting this baby out, and it was going to be paid for,” said Ms. Darling, who was interviewed at her home here as she cradled the infant in her arms.
As it turned out, the insurance company denied her claim, leaving Ms. Darling with more than $17,000 in medical bills.
Faced with a financial crisis, we can quickly come up with $700 billion. But we've been told again and again over the decades that we don't have the money to provide health care for all.
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1
Absolutely right, Dan. What better infrastructure investment could we make than to provide universal health care? Delinking it from employment would also make US businesses globally competitive with those from other (sane) developed countries.
2
That's all about to change and none too soon. Our government has been stolen by big money corporations and we have blithely allowed this by voting for Republicans. These self described "pro lifers" have lead our nation into a collapse of health care, sky rocketing infant mortality, inadequate health care for veterans coming home from a war that was unnecessary and the choice of our "pro life" Republican President. All the while they have taken enormous amounts of money to prevent us from being able to negotiate the price of medications and prevent us from getting what we need even in other countries that buy drugs more cheaply from American companies. Disgusting.
3
I'm not sure which is worse. The lack of health coverage or the fact that mid-wives and hospitals are so quick to induce labor and put babies at risk in order to get paid.
5
she should sue for malpractice.
her healthcare providers put her and her child at risk.
even if she is an idiot they can't use the same excuse.
ps
good for the insurance company for not being taken in.
her healthcare providers put her and her child at risk.
even if she is an idiot they can't use the same excuse.
ps
good for the insurance company for not being taken in.
6
Admittedly one should not have to have this level of insurance knowledge about legal technicalities but the right move here is to buy a month or two of COBRA coverage. Employer based healthcare has to offer it and although it is expensive ($400-$900 /mo depending on how good your plan is), if you know you have an existing condition it is cheap compared to the alternative.
Clearly unnecessarily cesareans are never covered.
The sad thing is that desperate people in difficult situations are making decisions based on facts they don't understand. I think this is that "personal responsibility" that republicans are talking about.
Clearly unnecessarily cesareans are never covered.
The sad thing is that desperate people in difficult situations are making decisions based on facts they don't understand. I think this is that "personal responsibility" that republicans are talking about.
7
Yeah, in 2006 I lost my job and with it the health coverage it provided. I raced in for one last doctor's visit before my coverage ended and got x-rayed at the doctor's suggestion because of the chronic back pain I'd been reporting. I got the message to come back in because they'd found something, but of course my coverage ended before they could schedule an MRI. Six months later when I got back on a health plan (Basic Health, since I was now poor enough to qualify) I went back in and they told me I had a permanent back injury, which probably occurred on the job (which involved heavy lifting) that had let me go. But of course, since I had waited six months, it was impossible to file an L and I claim because I could no longer adequately prove that I had been injured on the job.
The idea of making health coverage contingent on full-time employment with a company that provides benefits is fucking brilliant if you ask me.
The idea of making health coverage contingent on full-time employment with a company that provides benefits is fucking brilliant if you ask me.
8
She's not going to pay it, obviously. People declare bankruptcy all the time in exactly this sort of situation with medical bills they can't afford.
The hospital will naturally pass the cost onto everyone who does pay, i.e. insurance companies. They will figure that cost into the premiums of everyone who has insurance. Ms. Darling isn't stuck with $17,000 in medical bills, we are. And to think a natural birth would have cost a fraction of that -- she even would have saved us a few thousand by picking a midwife instead of an obstetrician. Would have been a steal if we'd thought it through.
The current recession forces us to abandon this profligate waste and establish socialized medicine. It's the only thing we can afford.
The hospital will naturally pass the cost onto everyone who does pay, i.e. insurance companies. They will figure that cost into the premiums of everyone who has insurance. Ms. Darling isn't stuck with $17,000 in medical bills, we are. And to think a natural birth would have cost a fraction of that -- she even would have saved us a few thousand by picking a midwife instead of an obstetrician. Would have been a steal if we'd thought it through.
The current recession forces us to abandon this profligate waste and establish socialized medicine. It's the only thing we can afford.
9
@6, read the story in the NYT.
"In some cases, people who are laid off can maintain their group health benefits under [Cobra]. But that is not an option for former Archway employees because their group health plan no longer exists."
"In some cases, people who are laid off can maintain their group health benefits under [Cobra]. But that is not an option for former Archway employees because their group health plan no longer exists."
10
An interesting note is how we have the highest infant mortality rate in the industrialized world. A lot of women don't/can't get pre-natal care and we also have doctors who tend to treat the maternity ward like it is a drive-thru. If you aren't being quick about delivering that kid they are more likely to encourage a c-section. (which isn't cheap either)
There are so many things effed up with how we approach healthcare and labor/birth in this country.
There are so many things effed up with how we approach healthcare and labor/birth in this country.
12
I've often complained that here in Canada you can wait hours in the emergency room, or be put on a waiting list for months just to get an MRI. But THIS would never happen. No matter what, I know that I will never receive a huge medical bill for something like giving birth.
This story makes me really, really sad.
This story makes me really, really sad.
13
awright @8.
Ins. cos. are just big Grendels roaming around and eating all our folks .....need to kil them off not just regulate them more. (Obama, HRC et al. wrong on this issue, not left enough. Sorry!)
Unity-
Ins. cos. are just big Grendels roaming around and eating all our folks .....need to kil them off not just regulate them more. (Obama, HRC et al. wrong on this issue, not left enough. Sorry!)
Unity-
14
I think to be fair, she would have been eligible for COBRA, the law that guarantees you can keep your health insurance after you are laid off for several more months while you look for other health insurance. It would have been cheaper for her to pay more each month for the COBRA rather than be stuck with a $17k bill for a more complicated procedure that the insurance company wasn't going to cover anyway because it wasn't medically necessary. It seems like this woman was not advised of her insurance and legal options before she made this rash decision.
That said, it's an injustice that anyone goes without affordable health insurance in the United States. I don't necessarily want to see a single-payer system that could mean lower quality care, but there has to be something done to reduce costs so these situations do not happen.
That said, it's an injustice that anyone goes without affordable health insurance in the United States. I don't necessarily want to see a single-payer system that could mean lower quality care, but there has to be something done to reduce costs so these situations do not happen.
16
@ #6 & 10, Why do you think induced labor = c-section? No where in the article does it say she had a c-section. If she had to induce labor, that means she more than likely delivered vaginally. If a c-section is scheduled, there is no need to induce labor.
@ #8, Whoever gets stuck with this bill is probably getting screwed (price wise). The average cost of a vaginal delivery is about $5-6,000 & the average cost of a c-section (which Ms. Darling may or mayn't had) is $11-11,500. http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm/d…
And, @ et al, who think the insurance company shouldn't pay for Ms. Darling's bill...YOU ARE FUCKING DIM!!! Lemme, tell you something, I work for an insurance company and I think they should pay the damn bill. Our health care system is f'd up because it is FOR Profit vs NON Profit. Hospitals, doctors, drug companies, and YES insurance companies are in business not to see you (or anyone else) get better. They are in business to make a profit. So guess what? They are in the business of screwing as much money out of you as they can. They provide Walmart-level of quality for Neiman Marcus-over inflated prices.
@ #8, Whoever gets stuck with this bill is probably getting screwed (price wise). The average cost of a vaginal delivery is about $5-6,000 & the average cost of a c-section (which Ms. Darling may or mayn't had) is $11-11,500. http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm/d…
And, @ et al, who think the insurance company shouldn't pay for Ms. Darling's bill...YOU ARE FUCKING DIM!!! Lemme, tell you something, I work for an insurance company and I think they should pay the damn bill. Our health care system is f'd up because it is FOR Profit vs NON Profit. Hospitals, doctors, drug companies, and YES insurance companies are in business not to see you (or anyone else) get better. They are in business to make a profit. So guess what? They are in the business of screwing as much money out of you as they can. They provide Walmart-level of quality for Neiman Marcus-over inflated prices.
17
When you're right you're right. This is the biggest lie perpetuated by the right--that we can't afford universal health care. Anyone seen the federal budget lately?
18
We have our problems in Canada, but I can't believe a civilized country like yours doesn't have universal health care. If they took away our health care there would be riots in the streets and the government would be overthrown.
20
18 "...there would be riots in the streets and the government would be overthrown."
Can we look forward to becoming a 'civilized' country like yours?
Can we look forward to becoming a 'civilized' country like yours?
21
My experience with health insurance companies is that they will fight coverage if they get the bill after your insurance has expired, even if you were covered when you had the procedure/exam. Sometimes they'll back down if you fight them.
22
We are the ONLY large and/or wealthy country that doesn't have some sort of universal health care. It's not just Canada and all of Europe -- countries like China, India, Saudi Arabia, Mexico, Thailand, Russia, Japan, and Brazil all have universal or near-universal health care. We are even paying for universal health care for everyone in Iraq and Afghanistan, but not for our own citizens.
It's shameful. :[
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_h…
It's shameful. :[
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_h…
23
MD: The United States ranks #37 out of all countries in health care performance, right behind Costa Rica. The US is also #1 in per capita health care spending. Every country above us has universal or near-universal health care. If we had universal health care, we'd probably jump to #1.
http://www.who.int/whr/2000/media_centre…
http://www.who.int/whr/2000/media_centre…
25
16 - The article says she had an emergency C-section after inducing
I'm sure some lawyer is calling her up right now to sue the insurance company.
I'm sure some lawyer is calling her up right now to sue the insurance company.
26
@24
Republicans always say that. Who comes here? I remember the Shah of Iran wanted to come here for medical treatment. I suppose other filthy rich fugitives do the same. But other than him, who? (Please don't bother answering me if you don't have data and a source to back it up. Who has the time for nonsense?)
Republicans always say that. Who comes here? I remember the Shah of Iran wanted to come here for medical treatment. I suppose other filthy rich fugitives do the same. But other than him, who? (Please don't bother answering me if you don't have data and a source to back it up. Who has the time for nonsense?)
27
25
She needed a C-section after a botched attempt to induce labor before she was due while trying to scam the insurance company.
I'm sure some lawyer who knows his business is calling her up right now to sue the doctor.
She needed a C-section after a botched attempt to induce labor before she was due while trying to scam the insurance company.
I'm sure some lawyer who knows his business is calling her up right now to sue the doctor.
28
Not to seem callous, but had she thought of
(a) Paying COBRA to keep her benefits for the two months
(b) Getting a state plan. My bro in Connecticut was just laid off and he did the research and found a plan that was completely free based on his income ($0).
WA state has individual insurance for $150 a month.
(a) Paying COBRA to keep her benefits for the two months
(b) Getting a state plan. My bro in Connecticut was just laid off and he did the research and found a plan that was completely free based on his income ($0).
WA state has individual insurance for $150 a month.
29
@28: COBRA has come up twice on this thread and twice it's been pointed out that it wouldn't apply to this instance (because the employer's health plan expired with the employer) in comments 6,9, 14 and 15.
@MD: I'm gonna go ahead and assume your initials stand for "Massive Dickhead" and not Medical Doctor, cause the stunning callousness you're displaying doesn't seem compatible with anybody who took the Hypocratic Oath.
Also, the idea that government bureaucrats would be likely to screw up health care more through incompetence than the insurance company bureaucrats screw it up through willful neglect (plus incompetence, since you obviously believe that bureaucracies are inherently inefficient) is laughable. Read comment #16 if you wanna hear right from the horse's mouth why insurance companies provide such a low level of care -- because it's in their interest to do so.
@MD: I'm gonna go ahead and assume your initials stand for "Massive Dickhead" and not Medical Doctor, cause the stunning callousness you're displaying doesn't seem compatible with anybody who took the Hypocratic Oath.
Also, the idea that government bureaucrats would be likely to screw up health care more through incompetence than the insurance company bureaucrats screw it up through willful neglect (plus incompetence, since you obviously believe that bureaucracies are inherently inefficient) is laughable. Read comment #16 if you wanna hear right from the horse's mouth why insurance companies provide such a low level of care -- because it's in their interest to do so.
31
I'm an abortionist.
I eat, drink and sleep
the Hypocritic Oath.
Insurance companies, as has been pointed out, are for-profit private businesses.
They are not charities and they are not your fairy godmother.
I eat, drink and sleep
the Hypocritic Oath.
Insurance companies, as has been pointed out, are for-profit private businesses.
They are not charities and they are not your fairy godmother.
33
Its so stupid. Everyone who goes to the hospital pays for people like Darling who don't pay their huge ass bills.
We could actually save money to provide real insurance to folks like Darling, so she wouldn't have to do dangerous things like inducing labor early and pay for cost-saving preventative care.
We keep our current system due to institutional inertia and lobbying, not because anyone (businesses or individuals) save any money from not insuring everyone.
We could actually save money to provide real insurance to folks like Darling, so she wouldn't have to do dangerous things like inducing labor early and pay for cost-saving preventative care.
We keep our current system due to institutional inertia and lobbying, not because anyone (businesses or individuals) save any money from not insuring everyone.
35
Also, another crazy thing about our health care system being for-profit is that we're being charged twice!
Our tax money goes to fund drug research (drug companies spend their money on advertising, not research), educate health care providers, and build hospitals and yet, we taxpayers, have to pay for their services!
Our tax money goes to fund drug research (drug companies spend their money on advertising, not research), educate health care providers, and build hospitals and yet, we taxpayers, have to pay for their services!
36
@24
I won't deny that the United States has the best health care in the world... if you can afford it.
Unfortunately, the vast majority of the people in this country can't afford it and have to settle for whatever the insurance companies will give them. Which isn't very much because it's in their best interest to NOT provide care.
I won't deny that the United States has the best health care in the world... if you can afford it.
Unfortunately, the vast majority of the people in this country can't afford it and have to settle for whatever the insurance companies will give them. Which isn't very much because it's in their best interest to NOT provide care.
37
@ 5: What the fuck does your ps mean?
I feel bad that no one explained her insurance plan to her.
Was she far enough along in her pregnancy to induce labor?
Does insurance cover bc?
I feel bad that no one explained her insurance plan to her.
Was she far enough along in her pregnancy to induce labor?
Does insurance cover bc?
38
@12- just nitpicking, but new immigrants to some provinces (bc, I think Ontario, I forget which others) have to wait 3 months for healthcare. I heard an interview with a woman who was having to consider a home birth- which she did not want, and still costs money- to avoid thousands in medical bills. Our system has room for improvement, fo sho.
40
@ Duckandcover,
You're comparing apples to orangutans.
Health care:Infrastructure
Gay Marriage:Civil rights
Both are important and we should be concerned about both.
You're comparing apples to orangutans.
Health care:Infrastructure
Gay Marriage:Civil rights
Both are important and we should be concerned about both.
41
@8
"She's not going to pay it, obviously. People declare bankruptcy all the time in exactly this sort of situation with medical bills they can't afford."
I may be incorrect, but I thought that was one of the changes in the bankruptcy rewrite of several years back...medical costs could not be used to justify a bankruptcy, or be wiped away by such declarations.
And of course now that I look into the question thanks to google, it doesn't appear to be a simple cut and dry answer.
dp
"She's not going to pay it, obviously. People declare bankruptcy all the time in exactly this sort of situation with medical bills they can't afford."
I may be incorrect, but I thought that was one of the changes in the bankruptcy rewrite of several years back...medical costs could not be used to justify a bankruptcy, or be wiped away by such declarations.
And of course now that I look into the question thanks to google, it doesn't appear to be a simple cut and dry answer.
dp
42
#16, when you induce labor (if you look at the forms you sign off on when you agree to induction you know this) you are warned that you typically have a 50 percent chance of ending up with a c-section. Party!
A number of doctors in this country tend to encourage induction after a week or two past the due-date. There are a lot of differing opinions on the validity of induction for non-emergency reasons but that is another conversation.
A number of doctors in this country tend to encourage induction after a week or two past the due-date. There are a lot of differing opinions on the validity of induction for non-emergency reasons but that is another conversation.
43
Okay, so it's a corrupt world, and there's going to be waste or corruption with or without universal coverage. I'd rather have everyone covered and some waste rather than a few having great coverage, some of us having shitty coverage, and a significant number not having any. I'd prefer the corruption on the national level over the corruption going into the pockets of a few.
45
31 says: "I'm an abortionist. I eat, drink and sleep
the Hypocritic Oath."
Hmm... Don't know what to say about your stated specialty, but then I read your misspelling of HypocrAtic Oath, and come to the conclusion that MD indeed stands for Massive Dickhead.
As someone with past work in insurance and presently a healthcare worker, I'd advise reading the fine print of the policy, whether induced labor and subsequent treatment are covered if initiated prior to the coverage expiration date. Policy handbooks are undoubtedly cryptic, but in her situation, would have been a worthwhile read before delivering as she did. I'd tell her to appeal the shit out of the insurance company, if anything in her policy gives her an opening.
It is absolute utter bullshit that this happens here in the 'God-blessed' US of A. We are decades overdue for a healthcare revolution. I worry that things have gone to hell so much we may not be able to truly fix our entrenched system.
Healthcare is filled with too many suits kicking their feet up on their glass-topped desks in view suites (yes - YOU, Insurance, Big Pharma, and Hospital CEOs). Docs are often targeted as overpaid demigods who knock off at noon to play a round of golf . But in their defense, that is a stereotype. Anyone with big brains who pours blood, sweat, and tears into 12++ years of education, graduates with $100k school debt, puts in long hours, and if fucks up, hurts/kills people, I'd say docs for the most part earn their keep. (Don't get me started on compensating my line of work.)
A worry of mine is that with the mass of unemployment, we will see a mass of very sick people coming to ERs and getting too-late treatment in hospitals, paid for by an evaporating pool of charity care funds. Without insurance, people put off going to the doctor and small problems become big, life-threatening ones.
More...
the Hypocritic Oath."
Hmm... Don't know what to say about your stated specialty, but then I read your misspelling of HypocrAtic Oath, and come to the conclusion that MD indeed stands for Massive Dickhead.
As someone with past work in insurance and presently a healthcare worker, I'd advise reading the fine print of the policy, whether induced labor and subsequent treatment are covered if initiated prior to the coverage expiration date. Policy handbooks are undoubtedly cryptic, but in her situation, would have been a worthwhile read before delivering as she did. I'd tell her to appeal the shit out of the insurance company, if anything in her policy gives her an opening.
It is absolute utter bullshit that this happens here in the 'God-blessed' US of A. We are decades overdue for a healthcare revolution. I worry that things have gone to hell so much we may not be able to truly fix our entrenched system.
Healthcare is filled with too many suits kicking their feet up on their glass-topped desks in view suites (yes - YOU, Insurance, Big Pharma, and Hospital CEOs). Docs are often targeted as overpaid demigods who knock off at noon to play a round of golf . But in their defense, that is a stereotype. Anyone with big brains who pours blood, sweat, and tears into 12++ years of education, graduates with $100k school debt, puts in long hours, and if fucks up, hurts/kills people, I'd say docs for the most part earn their keep. (Don't get me started on compensating my line of work.)
A worry of mine is that with the mass of unemployment, we will see a mass of very sick people coming to ERs and getting too-late treatment in hospitals, paid for by an evaporating pool of charity care funds. Without insurance, people put off going to the doctor and small problems become big, life-threatening ones.
46
@40. Ok. But that is a cop out. Politics is about priorities.
Clinton's initial agenda was sideswiped by 'gays in the miltary' psuedo-issue. Political capital wasted
So Dan - as an American - what is the priority now?
Clinton's initial agenda was sideswiped by 'gays in the miltary' psuedo-issue. Political capital wasted
So Dan - as an American - what is the priority now?
47
I went to Premiere's website and asked for an individual plan for a 27 year old female living in Kent, WA.
Lowest plan was 96 bucks.
https://www.premera.com/stellent/groups/…
Heritage Protector Plus 20
Plan Type Deductible Coinsurance Office Visit
PPO $1,000 20% Not Covered
$96.00
Monthly Cost
I went to Premiere's website and asked for an individual plan for a 27 year old female living in Kent, WA.
Lowest plan was 96 bucks.
https://www.premera.com/stellent/groups/…
Heritage Protector Plus 20
Plan Type Deductible Coinsurance Office Visit
PPO $1,000 20% Not Covered
$96.00
Monthly Cost
48
Ok, hold on. Reading the fine print, Maternity Coverage doesn't begin until the $325 per month plan
However, that's raw costs (no state aid, research etc). I bet she could find a cheaper plan, but $325 isn't $12,000!
Maternity Coverage
* Pre & Postnatal Office Visit
* 30% Coinsurance after deductible
* Labor & Delivery Hospital Stay
* 30% Coinsurance after deductible
https://pbcwa.inshealth.com/ehi/Quote.fs…
Ok, hold on. Reading the fine print, Maternity Coverage doesn't begin until the $325 per month plan
However, that's raw costs (no state aid, research etc). I bet she could find a cheaper plan, but $325 isn't $12,000!
Maternity Coverage
* Pre & Postnatal Office Visit
* 30% Coinsurance after deductible
* Labor & Delivery Hospital Stay
* 30% Coinsurance after deductible
https://pbcwa.inshealth.com/ehi/Quote.fs…
49
@45
Madashell
I hesitate to engage you on the topic of 'dickheadedness' since obviously you are a firstrate DICKHEAD
and probably therefore an expert
but let me try.
It is called 'sarcasm';
see- the Hypocratic Oath enjoins physians to 'do no harm' yet an abortionist slaughters innocent babies, so you spell it 'Hypocritic', as in hypocrite.
Do you get it now, DICKHEAD?
of course if you have to explain it then it totally takes the fun out of it, but it does provide a chance to once more reiterate what a total
DICKHEAD you are, sir.
Madashell
I hesitate to engage you on the topic of 'dickheadedness' since obviously you are a firstrate DICKHEAD
and probably therefore an expert
but let me try.
It is called 'sarcasm';
see- the Hypocratic Oath enjoins physians to 'do no harm' yet an abortionist slaughters innocent babies, so you spell it 'Hypocritic', as in hypocrite.
Do you get it now, DICKHEAD?
of course if you have to explain it then it totally takes the fun out of it, but it does provide a chance to once more reiterate what a total
DICKHEAD you are, sir.
50
Don't waste your time finding options where the lady could help herself, Americans think someone ELSE should be responsible for their care; they don't really care who- govt, employer, insurance- just as long as they don't have to pay for their own healthcare. She would rather rip off the insurance and/or bitch than find a just solution herself.
ba baaa
ba baaa
52
"I'm an abortionist.
I eat, drink and sleep
the Hypocritic Oath."
wtfbbq? that's suprise ol' hippocrates since his oath states in part
"I will not give a lethal drug to anyone if I am asked, nor will I advise such a plan; and similarly I will not give a woman a pessary to cause an abortion."
I eat, drink and sleep
the Hypocritic Oath."
wtfbbq? that's suprise ol' hippocrates since his oath states in part
"I will not give a lethal drug to anyone if I am asked, nor will I advise such a plan; and similarly I will not give a woman a pessary to cause an abortion."
53
By way of comparison, we have universal health care here in Australia, side by side with a small tax break if you have private health insurance. Even if you have private insurance, a standard visit to a GP (what I think you'd call a personal physician in the US) is still paid for in most cases by Medicare, and many medications are subsidized. Health insurance seems cheaper here, too - a fairly decent package, with hospital cover and extras, is around $80 AUD a month.
Of course it's not all roses. We're 32 on the WHO list and that's probably due to a production line culture in many bulk-billing medical centres, a lack of doctors in rural areas and some serious health problems among indigineous Australians. But I really do feel lucky - I know I can always seek help if I'm sick and worry about the costs later, if at all.
Of course it's not all roses. We're 32 on the WHO list and that's probably due to a production line culture in many bulk-billing medical centres, a lack of doctors in rural areas and some serious health problems among indigineous Australians. But I really do feel lucky - I know I can always seek help if I'm sick and worry about the costs later, if at all.
54
Even if COBRA were an option, I don't know about her, but I would have to pay almost $500 a month to keep my insurance through COBRA (almost 1/3rd of my disability check). I am better of on Medicare and Medicaid until I can get back to work.
55
@52
Exactly
The US medical 'profession' finds it unethical to participate in the execution of a mass murderer but sanctions the slaughter of a half a million babies annually by its members.
Good ol' Hippocrates would gag.
Exactly
The US medical 'profession' finds it unethical to participate in the execution of a mass murderer but sanctions the slaughter of a half a million babies annually by its members.
Good ol' Hippocrates would gag.
56
"Americans think someone ELSE should be responsible for their care; they don't really care who- govt, employer, insurance- just as long as they don't have to pay for their own healthcare."
Just out of curiosity, Massive Dickhead, what do you think this woman should have done in this situation, and how do you personally pay for your health care?
Just out of curiosity, Massive Dickhead, what do you think this woman should have done in this situation, and how do you personally pay for your health care?
57
56
I don't think she should have endangered her baby to scam the insurance company.
I am a small business owner who has to find insurance on the 'open' market and it is a brutal place for individuals and small businesses. There are two kinds of people in this country; those like the lady in the story who think someone else is responsible for their health care and those who have been obtaining coverage on their own and know their is no free 'lunch', and that 'lunch', when you can find it, is expensive.
Earlier posters are right, this lady won't pay the bill, everyone with insurance will.
It is probably not a coincidence that the cookie factory provided 'exellent health care coverage' and is out of business.
Healthcare in America is very expensive; in large part because we live unhealthy lifestyles and spend trillions treating diseases that could easily be avoided in the first place, in part because for too long many Americans have not had to pay for their healthcare and the economic feedback mechanism that keeps prices in line no longer worked. Patient doesn't care how much it cost because someone ELSE is paying, doctor knows patient doesn't care so prices go up and up. The game worked for awhile but now state govts and employers and anyone else who was actually paying the cost is going broke from the cost.
People who buy their own insurance don't scam the insurance provider, in fact they don't use it for legitimate needs if they can avoid it because they know their rates will go up the next year. No free lunch.
High gas prices made people make better more realistic decisions about driving. Only when Americans face up to the actual cost of providing THEIR health care will they start making more reasoned decisions and only then will the cost start to be manageable.
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I don't think she should have endangered her baby to scam the insurance company.
I am a small business owner who has to find insurance on the 'open' market and it is a brutal place for individuals and small businesses. There are two kinds of people in this country; those like the lady in the story who think someone else is responsible for their health care and those who have been obtaining coverage on their own and know their is no free 'lunch', and that 'lunch', when you can find it, is expensive.
Earlier posters are right, this lady won't pay the bill, everyone with insurance will.
It is probably not a coincidence that the cookie factory provided 'exellent health care coverage' and is out of business.
Healthcare in America is very expensive; in large part because we live unhealthy lifestyles and spend trillions treating diseases that could easily be avoided in the first place, in part because for too long many Americans have not had to pay for their healthcare and the economic feedback mechanism that keeps prices in line no longer worked. Patient doesn't care how much it cost because someone ELSE is paying, doctor knows patient doesn't care so prices go up and up. The game worked for awhile but now state govts and employers and anyone else who was actually paying the cost is going broke from the cost.
People who buy their own insurance don't scam the insurance provider, in fact they don't use it for legitimate needs if they can avoid it because they know their rates will go up the next year. No free lunch.
High gas prices made people make better more realistic decisions about driving. Only when Americans face up to the actual cost of providing THEIR health care will they start making more reasoned decisions and only then will the cost start to be manageable.
58
I think part of the problem here is that nobody is educated in how to manage their fucking money. I know people with massive medical bills they have had to foot themselves, paying them off over a decade, and did not file for bankruptcy or ask for a handout. They take on second or third jobs to pay the bills. Nods to personal responsibility mentioned above.
Yes healthcare needs to be reformed, but if this woman hadn't been a dipshit about money, she would have bit the bullet and assumed debt A over debt Ax2.
Yes healthcare needs to be reformed, but if this woman hadn't been a dipshit about money, she would have bit the bullet and assumed debt A over debt Ax2.
59
I'm just fucking with ya ... I don't have a clue about what I am talking about, I guess I am just a "Massive Dickhead."
62
I am very fortunate to live in Canada, where we have universal health care because we believe that every person, rich or poor, has the right to care.
My daughter was born pre-mature, 3 months pre-mature. She stayed in the NICU of the hospital for 10 weeks, and I stayed with her - the hospital had an old nurses residence that they converted for moms of pre-term babies to live in. They found that babies did better with family with them. When we left the hospital, after 10 weeks of round the clock doctor and nurses care, there was NO BILL. Granted, my baby was exceptionally healthy and only need to grow, but still, no bill for all that care.
My father was diagnosed with esophageal cancer a year ago. He had surgery to remove his esophagus, and they turned half of his stomach into a new esophagus. Plus he was in the hospital for weeks of care afterwards. They induced a coma for two weeks during his recovery, and then it was a few more weeks for him to heal up. NO BILL. He didn't have to pay a dime.
I know I couldn't have paid a bill for my daughter's stay in the hospital, and I know my father couldn't have paid what it would have cost him for the operation he had. If we were Americans, I'd be declaring bankruptcy, and my father would be dead.
I don't understand how you can NOT riot in the streets over your government pouring YOUR money into wars and banks, and not into YOUR health care.
My daughter was born pre-mature, 3 months pre-mature. She stayed in the NICU of the hospital for 10 weeks, and I stayed with her - the hospital had an old nurses residence that they converted for moms of pre-term babies to live in. They found that babies did better with family with them. When we left the hospital, after 10 weeks of round the clock doctor and nurses care, there was NO BILL. Granted, my baby was exceptionally healthy and only need to grow, but still, no bill for all that care.
My father was diagnosed with esophageal cancer a year ago. He had surgery to remove his esophagus, and they turned half of his stomach into a new esophagus. Plus he was in the hospital for weeks of care afterwards. They induced a coma for two weeks during his recovery, and then it was a few more weeks for him to heal up. NO BILL. He didn't have to pay a dime.
I know I couldn't have paid a bill for my daughter's stay in the hospital, and I know my father couldn't have paid what it would have cost him for the operation he had. If we were Americans, I'd be declaring bankruptcy, and my father would be dead.
I don't understand how you can NOT riot in the streets over your government pouring YOUR money into wars and banks, and not into YOUR health care.
63
maybe if you'd laid off the cocaine for a few months your baby wouldn't be so premature.
and what did your old man expect smoking 3 packs a day?
either way I'm sure the taxpayers of canada were thrilled to pick up the tab, they are spineless suckers.
and what did your old man expect smoking 3 packs a day?
either way I'm sure the taxpayers of canada were thrilled to pick up the tab, they are spineless suckers.
64
I am a taxpayer of Canada, Grim Reaper, and, yes, I was thrilled to pick up the tab. I know that if the same thing happens to me, I'll get the same care that Charm got. For that privilege, I have to pay less in taxes than I would pay for any private health plan.
It's a pretty sweet deal. I hope we hold on to it.
As for the unsubstantiated cocaine and smoking assertions you made, I assume you were joking.
It's a pretty sweet deal. I hope we hold on to it.
As for the unsubstantiated cocaine and smoking assertions you made, I assume you were joking.
65
You know it is very hard being such a massive dickhead but you have to understand living in my mom's basement, the internet porn doesn't do it for me anymore so I thought I'd just spout off some talking points I heard once on The Factor to see if people would respond to me because everyone else ignores me. So, you see I have to be a massive dickhead because it is the only way I can get attention.
68
Perhaps you missed my comment about my healthy baby. Nurses said I was an example of excellent pre-natal care. Not all preterm births are crack babys. I am a working, taxpaying, drug free citizen, and I'm happy to pay taxes that go to providing health care to all my fellow Canadians. You're just pissed because our system works.
And for the record, my father never smoked a day in his life. That's why heath care is so important. Mostly cancer happens to good people who never did a thing to deserve it.
And for the record, my father never smoked a day in his life. That's why heath care is so important. Mostly cancer happens to good people who never did a thing to deserve it.
70
coupling medical insurance with your employer is a bad idea that most people practice. i own medical insurance purchased on the open market. fire me all you want.
71
I guess you missed the part where she doesn't live in Washington. We are fortunate to have guaranteed access to individual insurance at reasonable rates, but in many states, you are at the mercy of the insurance companies, who tend to reject or severely limit coverage for people who aren't 100% healthy.
Ohio has some of the most bizarre regulations on individual health insurance of any state. A very limited form of guaranteed access is theoretically available for purchase there, on only one month per year. I swear I am not making this up: there is literally only one month in every year when you can go to a specific insurance provider and demand a reasonably priced (but restriced) policy, regardless of your health status. Now, different HMOs have their open enrollment at different times, but not all HMOs operate in every county. On top of that, the state can grant a waiver to allow HMOs to close enrollment, and there's always a 3 month waiting period for coverage to begin. Good luck!
However, that's raw costs (no state aid, research etc). I bet she could find a cheaper plan, but $325 isn't $12,000!
I guess you missed the part where she doesn't live in Washington. We are fortunate to have guaranteed access to individual insurance at reasonable rates, but in many states, you are at the mercy of the insurance companies, who tend to reject or severely limit coverage for people who aren't 100% healthy.
Ohio has some of the most bizarre regulations on individual health insurance of any state. A very limited form of guaranteed access is theoretically available for purchase there, on only one month per year. I swear I am not making this up: there is literally only one month in every year when you can go to a specific insurance provider and demand a reasonably priced (but restriced) policy, regardless of your health status. Now, different HMOs have their open enrollment at different times, but not all HMOs operate in every county. On top of that, the state can grant a waiver to allow HMOs to close enrollment, and there's always a 3 month waiting period for coverage to begin. Good luck!
72
"think someone ELSE should be responsible for their care; they don't really care who- govt, employer, insurance- just as long as they don't have to pay for their own healthcare. "
No, I think I should pay for it. Through my taxes. I am willing to lower my paycheck -- and believe me, if you saw my paycheck, you'd recognize that that's a big deal -- in order to have universal health care. I don't see how people on your side of the argument can so often accuse the other side of being whiners -- you guys are the ones bitching about losing money. I'm willing to pay taxes for roads, education, schools, and a robust national defense system, and I definitely don't believe I have a "right" to all that shit. I hate that kind of talk. It's not something that I have a right to. It's just a good fucking idea.
No, I think I should pay for it. Through my taxes. I am willing to lower my paycheck -- and believe me, if you saw my paycheck, you'd recognize that that's a big deal -- in order to have universal health care. I don't see how people on your side of the argument can so often accuse the other side of being whiners -- you guys are the ones bitching about losing money. I'm willing to pay taxes for roads, education, schools, and a robust national defense system, and I definitely don't believe I have a "right" to all that shit. I hate that kind of talk. It's not something that I have a right to. It's just a good fucking idea.
73
45 - I sure as hell hope I don't have you as my doc, should I need an abortion. Not only are you a crappy speller with a pissy attitude, you make assumptions about one's gender. Congratulations - you are the first person who has ever called me a 'dickhead' and 'sir'. Don't know if you'd recognize them if they were in your face, but I have a vagina, uterus, and ovaries. What a douche!
The docs I have worked with have rather high IQs. Judging by your posts, yours is lacking. For the welfare of patients everywhere, I hope that you are not a doctor.
As for anyone else who spouts the "people should be responsible for their own health, eat well, exercise, blah, blah, blah...": Yes we all should take good care of ourselves, but that does not exclude us from needing healthcare. We all eventually die, getting sick along the way if some tragic accident doesn't get us first. I've seen plenty of vibrant, healthy people have their lives turned upside down by cancer, brain tumors, infections, etc, by NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN. The problem is that insurance has always been the improper model for financing healthcare. Single payer, as utilized by the more evolved countries on theis planet, is the way to go.
The docs I have worked with have rather high IQs. Judging by your posts, yours is lacking. For the welfare of patients everywhere, I hope that you are not a doctor.
As for anyone else who spouts the "people should be responsible for their own health, eat well, exercise, blah, blah, blah...": Yes we all should take good care of ourselves, but that does not exclude us from needing healthcare. We all eventually die, getting sick along the way if some tragic accident doesn't get us first. I've seen plenty of vibrant, healthy people have their lives turned upside down by cancer, brain tumors, infections, etc, by NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN. The problem is that insurance has always been the improper model for financing healthcare. Single payer, as utilized by the more evolved countries on theis planet, is the way to go.
74
@71 no matter what state your in, I'm guessing insurance companies take a dim view of pregnant woman getting health insurance.
76
@72
You are so generous, FREELOADER.
You will lower your paycheck for taxes to pay your health care? Who are you kidding. Why don't you just take the money out of your paycheck and buy your healthcare, Mr Bigspender? Because you expect someone elses taxes to pay most of the cost of your healthcare.
Here is a counter-offer.
Keep your paycheck.
Keep your hands off my paycheck.
Buy your own healthcare.
You are so generous, FREELOADER.
You will lower your paycheck for taxes to pay your health care? Who are you kidding. Why don't you just take the money out of your paycheck and buy your healthcare, Mr Bigspender? Because you expect someone elses taxes to pay most of the cost of your healthcare.
Here is a counter-offer.
Keep your paycheck.
Keep your hands off my paycheck.
Buy your own healthcare.
77
Madashell,
You are indeed wise to be wary when selecting an abortionist to
KILL YOUR BABY.
One must guard against the possibility of hiring a doctor with poor spelling skills or a pissy attitude as those might impair his/her ability to
KILL YOUR BABY.
Please do be vigilant, diligent and cautious when selecting a doctor to
KILL YOUR BABY.
You are indeed wise to be wary when selecting an abortionist to
KILL YOUR BABY.
One must guard against the possibility of hiring a doctor with poor spelling skills or a pissy attitude as those might impair his/her ability to
KILL YOUR BABY.
Please do be vigilant, diligent and cautious when selecting a doctor to
KILL YOUR BABY.
79
eases the conscious to dehumanize before the slaughter.
Nazi germany, Rwanda, or the abortionist lair; all the same
Nazi germany, Rwanda, or the abortionist lair; all the same
81
@79
Don't forget Matthew Shephard.
Call it a fag, or call it a zygote; it makes it sting a little less when you kill it.
Don't forget Matthew Shephard.
Call it a fag, or call it a zygote; it makes it sting a little less when you kill it.
84
Wow, looks like this thread got polluted by anti-choice trolls. Incidentally, I've had an abortion, with NO REGRETS. My son would not be here as I would have lost my uterus from a previous, very troubled pregnancy. Suck it, you self-righteous assholes!
87
"Why don't you just take the money out of your paycheck and buy your healthcare, Mr Bigspender? Because you expect someone elses taxes to pay most of the cost of your healthcare."
The modern health care system, including me buying my own health insurance, DOES NOT FUCKING WORK. Why the fuck am I being accused of wanting people to support me? Why doesn't this work in reverse? Since I am the model of health and have never used health care in my adult life, I ***expect to be supporting*** other people with my taxes, and I don't mind.
Here's a quote: "Who agreed that conservatives should defend the dysfunctional American health care system from all criticism? Who volunteered to take the bullet for every crummy HMO and overpriced surgeon in the country? Who decided that it was okay with us for tens of millions of Americans to lack health care coverage?"
--David Frum, Republican speechwriter
You can blast the idea of universal health care all you want, but is there really an argument to be made in support of the system we have? What's your fucking solution?
The modern health care system, including me buying my own health insurance, DOES NOT FUCKING WORK. Why the fuck am I being accused of wanting people to support me? Why doesn't this work in reverse? Since I am the model of health and have never used health care in my adult life, I ***expect to be supporting*** other people with my taxes, and I don't mind.
Here's a quote: "Who agreed that conservatives should defend the dysfunctional American health care system from all criticism? Who volunteered to take the bullet for every crummy HMO and overpriced surgeon in the country? Who decided that it was okay with us for tens of millions of Americans to lack health care coverage?"
--David Frum, Republican speechwriter
You can blast the idea of universal health care all you want, but is there really an argument to be made in support of the system we have? What's your fucking solution?
88
85 - Let's see if can get your feeble mind wrapped around this concept:
1. Woman has pregnancy, a WANTED pregnancy. 2. Fetus develops abnormally, has defect that will eventually be fatal to fetus. 3. If pregnancy progresses with deteriorating fetus, damage to uterus will occur. Health of fetus would continue to decline, would no longer has heartbeat, procedure to remove fetus (by this time, very likely a stillbirth) damages uterus, thus no more pregnancies.
By terminating the pregnancy, I was bringing an early and merciful end to the inevitable. The fetus was not going to live, and the pregnancy ended before the fetus could become more developed.
See, in your feeble mind, if I'd had a painful, horrible loss of that pregnancy at a later stage, possibly losing my chance to have another pregnancy - or possibly losing my life - you'd say that's God's will. People like you see life in absolutist black and white terms. You'll say abortion is killing, no matter what the circumstances. I'll say to you that you have NO CLUE what a woman goes through when there is a need to end a pregnancy.
You mock me for having no regrets. I regret that the random fate of life brought such a difficult pregnancy into my life. But when I see my beautiful child who brings joy into this world every day - who may not have been here had my previous pregnancy continued - then I say, no I have no regret for my choice. Perhaps I'm wasting my time trying to tell you, because you just don't get it, and likely never will.
1. Woman has pregnancy, a WANTED pregnancy. 2. Fetus develops abnormally, has defect that will eventually be fatal to fetus. 3. If pregnancy progresses with deteriorating fetus, damage to uterus will occur. Health of fetus would continue to decline, would no longer has heartbeat, procedure to remove fetus (by this time, very likely a stillbirth) damages uterus, thus no more pregnancies.
By terminating the pregnancy, I was bringing an early and merciful end to the inevitable. The fetus was not going to live, and the pregnancy ended before the fetus could become more developed.
See, in your feeble mind, if I'd had a painful, horrible loss of that pregnancy at a later stage, possibly losing my chance to have another pregnancy - or possibly losing my life - you'd say that's God's will. People like you see life in absolutist black and white terms. You'll say abortion is killing, no matter what the circumstances. I'll say to you that you have NO CLUE what a woman goes through when there is a need to end a pregnancy.
You mock me for having no regrets. I regret that the random fate of life brought such a difficult pregnancy into my life. But when I see my beautiful child who brings joy into this world every day - who may not have been here had my previous pregnancy continued - then I say, no I have no regret for my choice. Perhaps I'm wasting my time trying to tell you, because you just don't get it, and likely never will.
89
Considering that nothing else seems to motivate you Americans other than your permanent inferiority complex, allow me to make the case for universalized health care in terms you can understand:
When we read stories like this one, we laugh at you and thank god we're not American.
HA HA HA! Enjoy your mercenary, for-profit healthcare system! Enjoy bankruptcy due to a car accident! Enjoy a long, painful diminishing unto death because you can't afford decent palliative care! Enjoy your insurance companies retroactively cancelling your insurance after cancer treatment because there was a typo on your application!
HA HA HA! You made your bed, and now you have to lie in it, America. And we're going to keep laughing at you, harder and harder--tears welling in our eyes as we clutch our aching ribs, as we watch you destroy yourselves as hard as you possibly can. You are the laughing stock of the world, and you're the only ones who don't understand this.
When we read stories like this one, we laugh at you and thank god we're not American.
HA HA HA! Enjoy your mercenary, for-profit healthcare system! Enjoy bankruptcy due to a car accident! Enjoy a long, painful diminishing unto death because you can't afford decent palliative care! Enjoy your insurance companies retroactively cancelling your insurance after cancer treatment because there was a typo on your application!
HA HA HA! You made your bed, and now you have to lie in it, America. And we're going to keep laughing at you, harder and harder--tears welling in our eyes as we clutch our aching ribs, as we watch you destroy yourselves as hard as you possibly can. You are the laughing stock of the world, and you're the only ones who don't understand this.
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