Sunday, December 7, 2008
Life Quote for the Day
Posted by Dan Savage on Sun, Dec 7, 2008 at 12:45 PM
"Oppressed people cannot remain oppressed forever. The yearning for freedom eventually manifests itself... There comes a time when the cup of endurance runs over, and men are no longer willing to be plunged into the abyss of despair. I hope sirs, you can understand our legitimate and unavoidable impatience."—Martin Luther King Jr., Letter from Birmingham Jail.
Share via
3
am I the only queer who has wondered about MKL and his good buddy B. Rustin - openly gay and his closest confident and assistant?
5
dan, i do love u, but nobody turned hoses on u & raped u 4 200 years & made u have babies & don't hitch your horse to the race plague...
yes, gays deserve all rights...but don't pull MLK into it...
WHITE MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
xxx
yes, gays deserve all rights...but don't pull MLK into it...
WHITE MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
xxx
6
Never put your rights and needs into the hands of people who think you're a joke. It was no secret how some people felt about gays all through this country's history. Now some people who were oppressed in the past need to wake up and see it's no joke to treat other people like they don't matter. Why act like everyone's going to agree with you when you're being a bigot? There's speeches, boycotts and marches to be made. How is that a joke? It isn't. Now stop laughing, assholes. The joke's on you now.
7
@5 Injustice to anyone is injustice to everyone. You either believe in justice or you don't. There is no in between.
8
@5 i hope i'm not mistaken - but didn't MLK believe in equality for ALL? therefore isn't it relevant to invoke the spirit of his writings for just about any call for equality? perhaps not a direct line-by-line comparison of injustices, as you have provided us with here, but the spirit of his beliefs. should you not be proud that MLK is a symbol of such a good thing as freedom for ALL?
aside to everyone: was just rereading the results of the CNN poll. in all the discussion of "who voted for it" i think we (or at least I did) overlooked the most obvious, and still, really the most powerful statistic. it may seem boring to think of, but EIGHTY-TWO PERCENT of REPUBLICANS voted FOR Prop 8. 36% of Dems voted for it. That number should have been smaller, so Dems aren't blameless, but...
EIGHTY-TWO PERCENT. really, what gives with that party.
aside to everyone: was just rereading the results of the CNN poll. in all the discussion of "who voted for it" i think we (or at least I did) overlooked the most obvious, and still, really the most powerful statistic. it may seem boring to think of, but EIGHTY-TWO PERCENT of REPUBLICANS voted FOR Prop 8. 36% of Dems voted for it. That number should have been smaller, so Dems aren't blameless, but...
EIGHTY-TWO PERCENT. really, what gives with that party.
9
Dan brings us the "Malaysian Howler Monkey" technique of political change;
shriek it loud and often enough and, no matter how patently ridiculous the claim, eventually the public will buy it.
shriek it loud and often enough and, no matter how patently ridiculous the claim, eventually the public will buy it.
10
It is obscene to invoke MLKjr when the issue is changing the NAME of California's 'marriage in all but name' Civil Union to 'marriage'.
OBSCENE
OBSCENE
11
I'm all for gay marriage rights, but for fuck sakes stop linking yourselves to the 1960s black civil rights movement. You're not being oppressed to even a tenth of that degree. GET THE FUCK OVER YOURSELF AND FUCKING GET REAL. People are not going to take you seriously if you keep hammering on this comparison.
13
Black oppression and gay oppression are more similar than I thought. What's the difference between Matthew Shepard, or the boy who got shot in school for being gay and the black people who got drug out of their houses and hung? While people can be excluded, beat up or killed for being who they are--we have to care. BTW-I'm a white, straight, Christian--who saw the results of the Civil Rights movement in North Carolina.
14
Echoing 11 - I love MLK's speeches, and I do believe that injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere, but Dan posting this quote in the context of the perceived Black vs. Gay divide just throws more fuel on the fire. Conservative white christian groups totally bombard Black churches with fliers about how "the gays" are trying to steal the legacy of the civil rights movement and Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr's statements in particular. Plus it sets up this implicit analogy that just doesn't ring true to a lot of people.
There are tons of great quotes from awesome LGBTQ folks that people don't even know about - please post some of those!
There are tons of great quotes from awesome LGBTQ folks that people don't even know about - please post some of those!
15
@12: What about gay women and/or gay people of color? Are they allowed to be upset about not having equal rights as gay Americans? Can they quote Dr. King? Or would that still be pitiful?
16
I think MLKjr would support this cause. He'd say stuff today in support of it. He'd probably like people to stop trying to suck his dick (LeRoi, CHZA, it's just pitiful, lori) and instead direct their efforts into supporting equal rights for all.
17
@9
Comparing Mr Savage to the Malaysian Howler Monkey is rude and unfair.
Howlers are no where near as obnoxious as Mr Savage and the association slanders them.
In the name of all that is holy stop it.
Comparing Mr Savage to the Malaysian Howler Monkey is rude and unfair.
Howlers are no where near as obnoxious as Mr Savage and the association slanders them.
In the name of all that is holy stop it.
18
@13
With regards to Shepard, the difference is that there is no systematic violence against gays for the very reason that gays are not all of the same ethnicity, and this is not a racially-based problem.
With regards to Shepard, the difference is that there is no systematic violence against gays for the very reason that gays are not all of the same ethnicity, and this is not a racially-based problem.
19
poor little oppressed white boys
poor little oppressed white girls
poor little oppressed people of color
PITIFUL
poor little oppressed white girls
poor little oppressed people of color
PITIFUL
20
@16
There is no "dick-sucking" of MLK Jr. going on, I'm attempting to note the deference the Civil Rights Movement requires and so many gay rights people seem to be ignoring. Yes, the Civil Rights movement and the gay marriage movement are in the same grain, but by no goddamn means are they on the same level.
There is no "dick-sucking" of MLK Jr. going on, I'm attempting to note the deference the Civil Rights Movement requires and so many gay rights people seem to be ignoring. Yes, the Civil Rights movement and the gay marriage movement are in the same grain, but by no goddamn means are they on the same level.
22
18.. really ?..
tell that to duanna johnson's family or community..
from a month ago..
http://www.memphisflyer.com/memphis/Cont…
tell that to duanna johnson's family or community..
from a month ago..
http://www.memphisflyer.com/memphis/Cont…
25
I think a member of the prestige ethnicity comparing him or herself, or their cause, to anything to do with MLK Jr., Rosa Parks, or any other African American civil rights leader is sort of the inverse corollary of Godwin's Law: it undercuts your argument as surely as comparing your ideological opponent to Hitler or the Nazis, or their actions to the Holocaust.
The history of African American civil rights in the United States is an unprecedented narrative, in much the same way that the Holocaust was an unprecedented atrocity. Comparing gay civil rights or even Latino civil rights to the struggle for African American civil rights, at the level of moral justification, only serves to show that you're so shockingly egocentric and lacking in any sense of proportion that you're not even worth arguing with.
But that's just my read. I'm sure there are lots of other people whose minds you don't need to change who find your analogy really compelling.
The history of African American civil rights in the United States is an unprecedented narrative, in much the same way that the Holocaust was an unprecedented atrocity. Comparing gay civil rights or even Latino civil rights to the struggle for African American civil rights, at the level of moral justification, only serves to show that you're so shockingly egocentric and lacking in any sense of proportion that you're not even worth arguing with.
But that's just my read. I'm sure there are lots of other people whose minds you don't need to change who find your analogy really compelling.
26
@12. Funny, you didn't mention the actual category of people that is being oppressed: gays. You try to turn this into a white thing?
@11. The black movement for civil rights was a movement for civil rights. It was not a movement for blacks to be loved and socially and culturally accepted by everyone else, to be treated in private encounters without racism, etc. It was that blacks should be recognized--in front of the law, hence, civilly--as equal to whites. Inasmuch as the gay movement for civil rights is a movement towards gays being recognized as equal--in front of the law, hence, civilly--the analogy is applicable. No one is arguing that the forms and styles of the oppressions are equal. But you want to argue that the civil matter isn't the same? You really want to argue that gays are not treated equally in front of the law, that gays don't have all the protections that straight blacks and whites now enjoy legally and civilly? If you do, you're, well, a moron.
@23. You really want to deny systematic violence towards gays? Check out some rap and hip hop lyrics, check in with mental health professionals, read some hate crimes stats, ask police in gay neighborhoods what's up... Is it state sanctioned? No. Has the state moved to remove it? No. Do blacks enjoy legal protections against hate crimes now? Yes.
@3. MLK eventually had to distance himself from him, because of what white AND black homophobes would think about their association.
@14. The refusal to grant the analogy is itself evidence of deep homophobia.
I'm starting to wonder if some blacks are pissed off about something. Pre-movement for civil rights, blacks were legally, socially, and culturally oppressed/discriminated against, etc. The black movement for civil rights brings about legal equality and outlaws legal discrimination, but blacks continued to find social and cultural oppression and discrimination. Gays, on the other hand, have achieved social and cultural acceptance in cosmopolitan enclaves, but have lacked legal protections. Now that gays are demanding legal protections and full civil rights (which blacks already have), maybe some blacks are pissed off that change has come faster for gays?
More...
@11. The black movement for civil rights was a movement for civil rights. It was not a movement for blacks to be loved and socially and culturally accepted by everyone else, to be treated in private encounters without racism, etc. It was that blacks should be recognized--in front of the law, hence, civilly--as equal to whites. Inasmuch as the gay movement for civil rights is a movement towards gays being recognized as equal--in front of the law, hence, civilly--the analogy is applicable. No one is arguing that the forms and styles of the oppressions are equal. But you want to argue that the civil matter isn't the same? You really want to argue that gays are not treated equally in front of the law, that gays don't have all the protections that straight blacks and whites now enjoy legally and civilly? If you do, you're, well, a moron.
@23. You really want to deny systematic violence towards gays? Check out some rap and hip hop lyrics, check in with mental health professionals, read some hate crimes stats, ask police in gay neighborhoods what's up... Is it state sanctioned? No. Has the state moved to remove it? No. Do blacks enjoy legal protections against hate crimes now? Yes.
@3. MLK eventually had to distance himself from him, because of what white AND black homophobes would think about their association.
@14. The refusal to grant the analogy is itself evidence of deep homophobia.
I'm starting to wonder if some blacks are pissed off about something. Pre-movement for civil rights, blacks were legally, socially, and culturally oppressed/discriminated against, etc. The black movement for civil rights brings about legal equality and outlaws legal discrimination, but blacks continued to find social and cultural oppression and discrimination. Gays, on the other hand, have achieved social and cultural acceptance in cosmopolitan enclaves, but have lacked legal protections. Now that gays are demanding legal protections and full civil rights (which blacks already have), maybe some blacks are pissed off that change has come faster for gays?
27
Gay people ARE THE ONLY PEOPLE that have a religious text stating it's OKAY AND FINE to stone them, kill them, remove them, and term them and Abomination. Gay people are still killed based on Religious tenants and the murderers do it with Zeal. Black people have NEVER EVER had a religious text written stating it's OKAY to kill them for being of African decent. So given that reality, The Black Civil rights movement, and the 100s of years of slavery PALES PALES in comparison to the 1000s of years of INSTITUTIONAL Homo-hating on the part of some Religions and those that practice those belief systems. Quoting MLK is fine because the AA struggle was 300 years or so, the Gay struggle has been going on for a few 1000.
28
@25. Rosa Parks wasn't a civil rights leader. She was a prop and became of symbol of the movement. I can't take anything you say about movements seriously after that silliness.
31
#28 - you mistake.
Rosa was involved in many actions, an officer in the local NAACP - hardly a prop.
Your discourse is excellent, stick with facts.
Her move was clearly thought out, deliberate and became the springboard for a national movement - all to her courage and political and social thinking and education.
Rosa was involved in many actions, an officer in the local NAACP - hardly a prop.
Your discourse is excellent, stick with facts.
Her move was clearly thought out, deliberate and became the springboard for a national movement - all to her courage and political and social thinking and education.
34
27
"...Gay people are still killed based on Religious tenants and the murderers do it with Zeal..."
So are we sure we want to throw out the rules and change the game to a no-holds-barred fight against the other 98% of the population?
"...Gay people are still killed based on Religious tenants and the murderers do it with Zeal..."
So are we sure we want to throw out the rules and change the game to a no-holds-barred fight against the other 98% of the population?
36
Most of these post show how bankrupt the Black Civil rights movement is at this time and place.
Coasting on history is kinda stale.
Asserting a franchise on civil liberties is silly.
A better world will deliver better rights to ALL who are now sitting in non equality - plenty of room - the pie for equality is generous and huge.
Pitting one against another is very right wing. Very. The Jew is the enemy of all for a multitude of reasons. The Negro cannot have any of the rights of whites for a list of reasons too odious to mention, but, were common. The Queer .... about the same list.
Only the far right gains in this climate..... as in the KKK and Nazi and Organized Anti Gay Bigotry.
In my white family Martin Luther King is THE icon of our most revered of people. Of course .... most of the relationships in this era are nulti cacial and multi ethnic and all cool gay.
Change is the word, change ... keep on trucking.
Coasting on history is kinda stale.
Asserting a franchise on civil liberties is silly.
A better world will deliver better rights to ALL who are now sitting in non equality - plenty of room - the pie for equality is generous and huge.
Pitting one against another is very right wing. Very. The Jew is the enemy of all for a multitude of reasons. The Negro cannot have any of the rights of whites for a list of reasons too odious to mention, but, were common. The Queer .... about the same list.
Only the far right gains in this climate..... as in the KKK and Nazi and Organized Anti Gay Bigotry.
In my white family Martin Luther King is THE icon of our most revered of people. Of course .... most of the relationships in this era are nulti cacial and multi ethnic and all cool gay.
Change is the word, change ... keep on trucking.
37
36
The 'right wing'
did not instill
rampant racism into the
elitest white homosexual community.
The 'right wing'
did not instill
rampant homophobia into the
Black community.
You girls are pitting all by yourselves.
The 'right wing'
did not instill
rampant racism into the
elitest white homosexual community.
The 'right wing'
did not instill
rampant homophobia into the
Black community.
You girls are pitting all by yourselves.
38
#37
"rampant racism in the gay white community"
Suck my cock - this is a total lie. I have never been in any group in so called white America that is less racist then the gay male community in Seattle.
Throwing insults is so easy.
Mixed Race Fag
"rampant racism in the gay white community"
Suck my cock - this is a total lie. I have never been in any group in so called white America that is less racist then the gay male community in Seattle.
Throwing insults is so easy.
Mixed Race Fag
39
Dan -- when MLK wrote that, there was no show called "Wilt and Grace." You couldn't watch "Black Eye for the Nerdy Guy" and the Cos wasn't selling Jello. But there were federal mandates failing to be upheld legally under the color of states rights. Gays now have a far, far greater assumption of dignity than blacks did fourty years ago -- and we need to recognize that not as a debate-tactic concession, but as something for which we should feel actual, powerful joy. The time between the great coming out process in the 50s and 60s and the eventual grant of full equality under the law and full equality in fact looks, frankly, like a lightening bolt in comparison to the crawl of black civil rights in this country.
That is a testament to the openness of Americans. Dan, you've done some good work on TV lately talking about the black gays and the latino gays -- don't undercut by quoting King without comment or context, as the point-blank comparison of gay rights to black rights only stirs up resentment from the people whose approval gay blacks need the most -- straight blacks.
That is a testament to the openness of Americans. Dan, you've done some good work on TV lately talking about the black gays and the latino gays -- don't undercut by quoting King without comment or context, as the point-blank comparison of gay rights to black rights only stirs up resentment from the people whose approval gay blacks need the most -- straight blacks.
40
I have no idea if this will help or hurt, but I thought I'd throw it out there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZSA0e9La…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZSA0e9La…
41
I think the issue Riz is trying to show is that black's, including non transgenger black gays like myself, face violent homophoebic behavior from even our own race. There are many blacks, especially the heavy-handed religous ones, who still see being gay as a "white thing" and don't want to admit that their choir director or church music director's gay.
#38 - I know we've both seen the racism in the gay community in Seattle. It's apparatus when you see the cliques around here. If you're black and into interracial dating, it's a tough hill to climb in this city when you're talking to white guys around your age who won't give you the time of day because they don't find you attractive one bit b/c they're "not into black guys". But you end getting attention from guys who are either 15+ years older than you are not that attractive. That's my problem. I visit Vancouver or NYC and it's totally the opposite for me.
#38 - I know we've both seen the racism in the gay community in Seattle. It's apparatus when you see the cliques around here. If you're black and into interracial dating, it's a tough hill to climb in this city when you're talking to white guys around your age who won't give you the time of day because they don't find you attractive one bit b/c they're "not into black guys". But you end getting attention from guys who are either 15+ years older than you are not that attractive. That's my problem. I visit Vancouver or NYC and it's totally the opposite for me.
42
I think the issue Riz is trying to show is that black's, including non transgenger black gays like myself, face violent homophoebic behavior from even our own race. There are many blacks, especially the heavy-handed religous ones, who still see being gay as a "white thing" and don't want to admit that their choir director or church music director's gay.
#38 - I know we've both seen the racism in the gay community in Seattle. It's apparatus when you see the cliques around here. If you're black and into interracial dating, it's a tough hill to climb in this city when you're talking to white guys around your age who won't give you the time of day because they don't find you attractive one bit b/c they're "not into black guys". But you end getting attention from guys who are either 15+ years older than you are not that attractive. That's my problem. I visit Vancouver or NYC and it's totally the opposite for me.
#38 - I know we've both seen the racism in the gay community in Seattle. It's apparatus when you see the cliques around here. If you're black and into interracial dating, it's a tough hill to climb in this city when you're talking to white guys around your age who won't give you the time of day because they don't find you attractive one bit b/c they're "not into black guys". But you end getting attention from guys who are either 15+ years older than you are not that attractive. That's my problem. I visit Vancouver or NYC and it's totally the opposite for me.
43
@38
sorry to burst your bubble,
Mixed Face Rag-
you need to get out more,
evidently
(be careful not to bend your halo)
sorry to burst your bubble,
Mixed Face Rag-
you need to get out more,
evidently
(be careful not to bend your halo)
44
Fact 1: The Bible has long been used to justify violence and oppression again black people, both here and abroad.
Fact 2: Gays have not always been oppressed by Christians. Early Christianity was pretty neutral on the topic and there's even evidence of the early church sanctioning marriages between men.
Fact 3: You are a ignoramus.
Gay people ARE THE ONLY PEOPLE that have a religious text stating it's OKAY AND FINE to stone them, kill them, remove them, and term them and Abomination...
Black people have NEVER EVER had a religious text written stating it's OKAY to kill them for being of African decent...
The Black Civil rights movement, and the 100s of years of slavery PALES PALES in comparison to the 1000s of years of INSTITUTIONAL Homo-hating on the part of some Religions
Fact 1: The Bible has long been used to justify violence and oppression again black people, both here and abroad.
Fact 2: Gays have not always been oppressed by Christians. Early Christianity was pretty neutral on the topic and there's even evidence of the early church sanctioning marriages between men.
Fact 3: You are a ignoramus.
45
44
"...there's even evidence of the early church sanctioning marriages between men."
BS
BS
BS
BS
BS
"...there's even evidence of the early church sanctioning marriages between men."
BS
BS
BS
BS
BS
46
@41 - ugh i hate spell check sometimes lol :)
@38 -
you hit the nail dead on. this not only applies to homophoebia in the black community, this applies to HIV/AIDS awareness and prevention in the black community. I can tell you stories from my mom, who's been a RN nurse for hospice, about str8 blacks in the black community dying of AIDS and how they're rejected by their families and the community. It's sad.
@38 -
don't undercut by quoting King without comment or context, as the point-blank comparison of gay rights to black rights only stirs up resentment from the people whose approval gay blacks need the most -- straight blacks.
you hit the nail dead on. this not only applies to homophoebia in the black community, this applies to HIV/AIDS awareness and prevention in the black community. I can tell you stories from my mom, who's been a RN nurse for hospice, about str8 blacks in the black community dying of AIDS and how they're rejected by their families and the community. It's sad.
47
BTW Dan, I have no issues with you quoting Dr. King. But I think you've been preaching to the wrong choir since Prop 8 passed. Try talking to the black community face to face rather than via passive aggressive ways. Talk to some gay black guys in the area face to face w/o the press or anyone documenting it. All we ask is just for a closed door discussion.
Hell I'm willing to meet to discuss this. Consider it confession (and I'm a gay black catholic). Whatever is said, will only be between you, me and God.
Hell I'm willing to meet to discuss this. Consider it confession (and I'm a gay black catholic). Whatever is said, will only be between you, me and God.
48
@41 & 42,
Sorry, but cute young guys not wanting to fuck you isn't evidence of racism. It's just evidence that not everyone wants to fuck you.
Sorry, but cute young guys not wanting to fuck you isn't evidence of racism. It's just evidence that not everyone wants to fuck you.
49
@44. The Bible has long been used to justify violence and oppression again black people, both here and abroad.
There is a difference between slave owners using the Bible to "justify" owning and disciplining slaves and the Bible clearly and distinctly stating that homosexual relations is an "abomination" and gay mens' "blood is on their hands."
One is interpretation and justification for owning slaves; the other is a direct order from God to kill homosexuals.
An extremely important distinction that I hope you can see and understand.
There is a difference between slave owners using the Bible to "justify" owning and disciplining slaves and the Bible clearly and distinctly stating that homosexual relations is an "abomination" and gay mens' "blood is on their hands."
One is interpretation and justification for owning slaves; the other is a direct order from God to kill homosexuals.
An extremely important distinction that I hope you can see and understand.
50
Is there some counterpart to Godwin's Law that any internet discussion of discrimination inevitably turns into a competition to prove that only one targeted group has suffered absolutely the worst oppression ever in all of human existence? If so, let me be so bold as to nominate women as the most shat-upon group; it's even in the Bible near the beginning:
That is a direct quote from God; ergo I have just proved that my premise is the most right.
I'm being sarcastic here. What the fuck happened to trying to be allies? And finding common ground? As a young white straight woman, I appreciate hearing from people at what is called the "intersection of oppressions." Like Audre Lorde and Mandy Carter and people I know who are trans and/or genderqueer who struggle to be respected as human beings. And some of the commenters here that I assume to be out people of color but don't know for sure.
Well, enjoy the rest of your sunday everyone.
To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you."
-Genesis 3:16
That is a direct quote from God; ergo I have just proved that my premise is the most right.
I'm being sarcastic here. What the fuck happened to trying to be allies? And finding common ground? As a young white straight woman, I appreciate hearing from people at what is called the "intersection of oppressions." Like Audre Lorde and Mandy Carter and people I know who are trans and/or genderqueer who struggle to be respected as human beings. And some of the commenters here that I assume to be out people of color but don't know for sure.
Well, enjoy the rest of your sunday everyone.
51
#43
feeling pitiful about life might be part of the problem - dress sexy and smile a lot just like all the fags do
works
feeling pitiful about life might be part of the problem - dress sexy and smile a lot just like all the fags do
works
52
#47
nice, gay Catholic, care to tell us how that works with the TOTALLY HOMOPHOBIC POPE. Even in Seattle Dignity was kicked out of parrish buildings to meet and have Mass.
New criteria from the Vatican will not allow any gay man to be a priest. Backward they are moving.
It may be difficult, but, maybe black gay men have to figure out their CHURCH is the real oppressor......let's have that discussion sans race .....
nice, gay Catholic, care to tell us how that works with the TOTALLY HOMOPHOBIC POPE. Even in Seattle Dignity was kicked out of parrish buildings to meet and have Mass.
New criteria from the Vatican will not allow any gay man to be a priest. Backward they are moving.
It may be difficult, but, maybe black gay men have to figure out their CHURCH is the real oppressor......let's have that discussion sans race .....
53
@50. Just to clarify. I'm not in a competition with anyone.
I'm pointing out that people using the bible for justification to enslave a race of people (a horrible thing) is not the same as actual orders from God to kill actual groups of people (a horrible, but completely different horrible thing).
44's attempt to compare and equate the two is intellectually dishonest, and that's all I meant.
I'm pointing out that people using the bible for justification to enslave a race of people (a horrible thing) is not the same as actual orders from God to kill actual groups of people (a horrible, but completely different horrible thing).
44's attempt to compare and equate the two is intellectually dishonest, and that's all I meant.
54
@52 - Let me clarify. Raised Catholic. I'm not a practicing Catholic anymore. Also in reality, I must've been lucky to not hear the anti-gay rhetoric the Vatican says by the priests, who gave mass. But they were probably gay. But I do agree with ya that religion is the biggest oppressor.
In the south during slavery, the issue of slavery was what the Southern Baptist Convention was founded on. They were for it, while every other religious group in the South was against it. The SBC quoted the Bible as a means to justify slavery. The SBC quoted the damn thing after the Civil War when slavery ended to continue to oppress blacks. The SBC continued to quote it for seperate but equal and civil rights. They even quoted the damn thing to prove their case against interracial marriage. then moved on to abortion and gay marriage.
In the south during slavery, the issue of slavery was what the Southern Baptist Convention was founded on. They were for it, while every other religious group in the South was against it. The SBC quoted the Bible as a means to justify slavery. The SBC quoted the damn thing after the Civil War when slavery ended to continue to oppress blacks. The SBC continued to quote it for seperate but equal and civil rights. They even quoted the damn thing to prove their case against interracial marriage. then moved on to abortion and gay marriage.
55
keshmeshi you DID NOT read what I wrote. Now go back and RE-Read what I wrote. Who said ANYTHING about Christians? Not I.
Your "Fact" 1: debunked; Justification of oppression by the use of Religious text Is not the same as a Law Code that affirms the right to Kill a Gay person (As I stated). Quote me one Religious text of any Religious Law Code were it approves the killing of a person because of the color of their skin. I'll take Just ONE.
Your "Fact" 2 debunked; I never mentioned Christians, don't play the martyr you do it poorly.
Your "Fact" 3 debunked; I do fact checking, you don't.
You should check your "facts" before you spew, Idiot.
Your "Fact" 1: debunked; Justification of oppression by the use of Religious text Is not the same as a Law Code that affirms the right to Kill a Gay person (As I stated). Quote me one Religious text of any Religious Law Code were it approves the killing of a person because of the color of their skin. I'll take Just ONE.
Your "Fact" 2 debunked; I never mentioned Christians, don't play the martyr you do it poorly.
Your "Fact" 3 debunked; I do fact checking, you don't.
You should check your "facts" before you spew, Idiot.
56
@53 - I'm no biblical scholar, but my understanding of how the bible has been used to justify discrimination seems to be different than yours. As far as I know, there is nothing in the bible that condemns gay people as a group, probably because our concept of what it means to be gay and part of a gay community didn't exist at the time. However you sure as hell can find zillions of examples of ethnic group damning and condemning and slaughtering and enslaving.
In Genesis right after the pretty rainbow Noah curses his son Ham, and by extension his descendants, to be enslaved by his other two sons. Ham is then named as the father of Palestinians and other groups that have been interpreted as African peoples. So God didn't curse Ham himself, or specifically say black people, but that is the basis for saying it was God's will for black people to be enslaved.
On the other hand the biblical orders to stone what we now call gay people seem to be based on individual behavior at the same level as straight adultery, and not some concept of inherent evilness of a group of people. That's why conservative christians insist people are not born gay, but choose to engage in gay sex and therefore sin. But of course they use that to justify discrimination against what we recognize as a group, the LGBTQ community.
So I think it's totally appropriate that keshmeshi would draw that comparison, and the only intellectual dishonesty I see is people who think some thousand-old story makes it ok to suppress anyone's rights. Bonus rant: the quote in my last comment about how Eve was condemned to suffer pain in childbirth was used to justify burning midwives as witches during the inquisition, because they defied God's order that women suffer for Eve's sin.
In Genesis right after the pretty rainbow Noah curses his son Ham, and by extension his descendants, to be enslaved by his other two sons. Ham is then named as the father of Palestinians and other groups that have been interpreted as African peoples. So God didn't curse Ham himself, or specifically say black people, but that is the basis for saying it was God's will for black people to be enslaved.
On the other hand the biblical orders to stone what we now call gay people seem to be based on individual behavior at the same level as straight adultery, and not some concept of inherent evilness of a group of people. That's why conservative christians insist people are not born gay, but choose to engage in gay sex and therefore sin. But of course they use that to justify discrimination against what we recognize as a group, the LGBTQ community.
So I think it's totally appropriate that keshmeshi would draw that comparison, and the only intellectual dishonesty I see is people who think some thousand-old story makes it ok to suppress anyone's rights. Bonus rant: the quote in my last comment about how Eve was condemned to suffer pain in childbirth was used to justify burning midwives as witches during the inquisition, because they defied God's order that women suffer for Eve's sin.
57
One of the biggest forms of Enslavement is Economic Enslavement. 3 percent of the people own 84 percent of the stuff. Focusing on the small issues takes our eyes off the prize. People who use and control the land and resources are the real oppressors.
59
Minorities are second-class citizens within the gay community; I do not see that changing if you get what you want. In fact, it would only get worse. You aren't liberals, you are libertarians pretending to be liberals to construct a fake coalition which you are quite willing to jettison as soon as it serves its purpose. The church STARTED the civil rights movement--the gays can never equal that. I'd rather know that the poor and hungry are clothed, sheltered and fed than ever have gay marriage. The reaction to your defeat showed me your 'true colors', and I have no intention of making myself vulnerable. That is all.
60
@59
ditto
The Homosexual 'lifestyle' is all about self centeredness.
It is about sexual gratification without the responsibility of procreation.
Gays only care about Blacks to the extent they can use them to achieve their political objectives.
They couldn't care less how many Black women die from AIDS.
ditto
The Homosexual 'lifestyle' is all about self centeredness.
It is about sexual gratification without the responsibility of procreation.
Gays only care about Blacks to the extent they can use them to achieve their political objectives.
They couldn't care less how many Black women die from AIDS.
61
@60 More ignorant lies LeRoi. All people who care about injustice, gay people included, care about the injustices to black people. To say they only care so "they can use them to achieve their political objectives" is just plain false and you know it. As far as sexual gratification goes, how else would you explain so many fatherless and unsupported children of hetero's than to say it's sexual gratification without the responsibilty of procreation?
62
#56. These three biblical passages seem pretty straightforward to me.
Leviticus 18:22: Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; it is an abomination.
Leviticus 20:13: If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
Romans 1:26-27 (TNIV): Because of this [idolatry], God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The Palestinian/Israeli conflict is Biblically-based, I agree, but that's not what we're discussing here. The Bible does not say: "America and Europe: Go to Africa and kidnap Ham's descendants; bring them to the Americas and enslave them." The relationships between Arab and Israeli nations has been in conflict since those tribes could write their own histories.
The Bible, however, does say that same-sex relations are worthy of death, and it's instructed in both the Old and New Testaments, and it is universal. This isn't God instructing primitive, Nomadic tribes why they should start fighting each other. This is God telling his chosen people--and later, the Gentiles--to kill homosexuals. It's straightforward. There may not have been a term for homosexuality or bisexuality, but we know that it was common life among Egyptians, Greeks, and Romans (notice who Paul was addressing in his letter).
Leviticus 18:22: Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; it is an abomination.
Leviticus 20:13: If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
Romans 1:26-27 (TNIV): Because of this [idolatry], God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The Palestinian/Israeli conflict is Biblically-based, I agree, but that's not what we're discussing here. The Bible does not say: "America and Europe: Go to Africa and kidnap Ham's descendants; bring them to the Americas and enslave them." The relationships between Arab and Israeli nations has been in conflict since those tribes could write their own histories.
The Bible, however, does say that same-sex relations are worthy of death, and it's instructed in both the Old and New Testaments, and it is universal. This isn't God instructing primitive, Nomadic tribes why they should start fighting each other. This is God telling his chosen people--and later, the Gentiles--to kill homosexuals. It's straightforward. There may not have been a term for homosexuality or bisexuality, but we know that it was common life among Egyptians, Greeks, and Romans (notice who Paul was addressing in his letter).
63
#60. Gays only care about Blacks to the extent they can use them to achieve their political objectives.
I have heard this so often since the election, it makes me want to scream. I'll say it as bluntly and as respectfully as I can: Not having much in common does not mean not giving a shit.
The straight African American culture and gay culture don't have much in common with each other. As a rule, we don't share common interests in the arts, be it film, music, or even books. We don't enjoy doing the same things. We like different types of entertainment; we take different types of drugs; we like to eat different foods. Our cultures don't much overlap with each other. We don't even worship the same way. This is not a judgment; it's not a negative thing; it's just the way it is.
Damn! Let's break it down further! The same thing can be said of the gay and lesbian cultures! And we may sometimes snipe at each other the way brothers and sisters do, but you don't see us voting against each others civil rights!
Doesn't it make sense, then, that we wouldn't hang out with each other or date each other much? That doesn't mean that we don't give a shit about each other! That doesn't mean we'd vote against your rights, for god's sake!
I used to think that one thing blacks and gays had in common was politics. We tend--for the most part--to vote the same way. But I've since realized that we vote Democratic for different reasons.
I heard black people, over and over, since the election complaining that gays don't invite them to our reindeer games. Think about it, would you want to come to our parties and hang out? Do you like our music? Our movies? Our literature? For the most part, no. I know I'm generalizing here, but it just seems to me that we just have different interests. But, god, not having much in common shouldn't be a deal breaker about everything!
More...
I have heard this so often since the election, it makes me want to scream. I'll say it as bluntly and as respectfully as I can: Not having much in common does not mean not giving a shit.
The straight African American culture and gay culture don't have much in common with each other. As a rule, we don't share common interests in the arts, be it film, music, or even books. We don't enjoy doing the same things. We like different types of entertainment; we take different types of drugs; we like to eat different foods. Our cultures don't much overlap with each other. We don't even worship the same way. This is not a judgment; it's not a negative thing; it's just the way it is.
Damn! Let's break it down further! The same thing can be said of the gay and lesbian cultures! And we may sometimes snipe at each other the way brothers and sisters do, but you don't see us voting against each others civil rights!
Doesn't it make sense, then, that we wouldn't hang out with each other or date each other much? That doesn't mean that we don't give a shit about each other! That doesn't mean we'd vote against your rights, for god's sake!
I used to think that one thing blacks and gays had in common was politics. We tend--for the most part--to vote the same way. But I've since realized that we vote Democratic for different reasons.
I heard black people, over and over, since the election complaining that gays don't invite them to our reindeer games. Think about it, would you want to come to our parties and hang out? Do you like our music? Our movies? Our literature? For the most part, no. I know I'm generalizing here, but it just seems to me that we just have different interests. But, god, not having much in common shouldn't be a deal breaker about everything!
64
@63 - If you say African American culture and gay culture don't have much in common, then how do I as a gay African American fit in? The overlap in my interests exist. The only difference is that I date men not women.
The issue is that when people speak of gay culture and black culture clashing, they always forget about gay and lesbian blacks. When you see me on the street and don't know me, what's the first thing you see? A black guy or a gay guy?
The issue is that when people speak of gay culture and black culture clashing, they always forget about gay and lesbian blacks. When you see me on the street and don't know me, what's the first thing you see? A black guy or a gay guy?
65
@64 - That's why I put "as a rule." And I knew I was generalizing, but I was just trying to make the point that just because--as a rule--our cultures don't have much at all in common, doesn't mean that they don't care about the other.
To you, apres_moi, I'd say you should think about what you like, where you'll feel most comfortable, and what's most important to you and hang with that culture. And if you choose the gay culture, it won't mean you don't give a shit about black people.
If you choose the black culture, it won't mean that you should automatically vote against gay rights.
Maybe one day, it won't be such an either/or.
To you, apres_moi, I'd say you should think about what you like, where you'll feel most comfortable, and what's most important to you and hang with that culture. And if you choose the gay culture, it won't mean you don't give a shit about black people.
If you choose the black culture, it won't mean that you should automatically vote against gay rights.
Maybe one day, it won't be such an either/or.
66
Watching this moonbat meltdown is quite entertaining. Keep up the little tantrums. The rest of the country is laughing at you.
67
lol, yeah, the way gays are treated is very similar to the the way blacks were treated. Stop the navel gazing. Fags are so self centered it makes me kinda happy to see them get hated on.
68
a tune:
dedicated
to reconciliation
and Love.
>sung to the tune of
'The Farmer And The Cowboy'
from 'OklaHOMO'<
(Dan; I'll wait while you run get your dancing shoes......
ready?...
The negro and the gayboy should be friends
Oh, the negro and the gayboy should be friends
One wants to marry his beau, the other just to boink his Ho
But that's no reason why they can't be friends
Democratic folks should stick together
Democratic folks should all be pals
Gayboy dance with the downlow negro,
DownLow gives AIDS to his gals.
I think we can get Elton to sing it at Obama's inauguration.
dedicated
to reconciliation
and Love.
>sung to the tune of
'The Farmer And The Cowboy'
from 'OklaHOMO'<
(Dan; I'll wait while you run get your dancing shoes......
ready?...
The negro and the gayboy should be friends
Oh, the negro and the gayboy should be friends
One wants to marry his beau, the other just to boink his Ho
But that's no reason why they can't be friends
Democratic folks should stick together
Democratic folks should all be pals
Gayboy dance with the downlow negro,
DownLow gives AIDS to his gals.
I think we can get Elton to sing it at Obama's inauguration.
70
For those of you who think that MLK, Jr. would be in support of your cause, please remember that he was a Baptist minister. The tenets of his faith, like all the other faithful, would be against the idea of gay marriage. I like how you use his words, but forget who he was!
It's a little like trying to John Paul II would support abortion.
It's a little like trying to John Paul II would support abortion.
72
@62 - What I'm saying is the many ways the bible has been used to justify violence against certain people is fucked up; it seems ridiculous to try to say one form is worse than others because it is explicitly written to kill someone who does this thing. And yes, I know there have always been gay people, but that doesn't change the fact that the laws you quoted are about what was seen as individual behavior. Interpretations of God's word have had much more weight throughout history since christianity became a powerful institution than a strict literal reading of the bible indicates.
I have to say your reply to apres_moi at 65 seems really fucked up to me. I can only assume that your only connection to black culture is through media stereotypes. It's not either/or for apres_moi; he's an adult, he has his life experience to help him shift between cultures. For you to spout some G.W. Bush "you're either with us or against us" advice for him to choose only one group is just bullshit. Actually re-reading your comment you have already chosen for him: saying "just because our cultures don't have much in common" is you taking ownership of gay culture and placing him in black (straight) culture. And that helps create allies how?
I have to say your reply to apres_moi at 65 seems really fucked up to me. I can only assume that your only connection to black culture is through media stereotypes. It's not either/or for apres_moi; he's an adult, he has his life experience to help him shift between cultures. For you to spout some G.W. Bush "you're either with us or against us" advice for him to choose only one group is just bullshit. Actually re-reading your comment you have already chosen for him: saying "just because our cultures don't have much in common" is you taking ownership of gay culture and placing him in black (straight) culture. And that helps create allies how?
73
@72. I promise I didn't mean to do that. Tell apres_moi what to do, I mean. He asked me for my opinion about where black gays and lesbians fit in when they're being pulled by two very different cultures. At least I thought that's what he was asking me. I guess I was just answering from my own experience. Being a gay, tom boyish, bookish nerd growing up among poor white trash in the south, I too have to "pick and choose" part of my two cultures. Two cultures that have nothing in common with each other (Italian/Catholic/uneducated/southern and gay/educated/bourgeois/activist/atheist/leftist). I deal with the weird duality every day. I also know the culture I fit in the easiest with.
I thought it was common knowledge that African American culture and gay/lesbian culture have little in common, and I don't mean what we get from the news or Queer as Folk. I don't know, the differences seem to stare me in the face. This is not a judgment on either culture. It's just my empirical observation.
Honestly, it's only been now that I realize I've been offending you with my every post. I'm very new to Slog, and I've been delighted and relieved to find a place where this difficult, volatile, but important conversation is still continuing to take place. I mean, at least here, the few trolls are ignored! Most other places (at least ones with which I'm familiar) it's gone away because no one wants to address it.
Seriously, asteria (and apres_moi if needed), please accept my apology for being offensive. I honestly thought I was onto something good and helpful here.
I thought it was common knowledge that African American culture and gay/lesbian culture have little in common, and I don't mean what we get from the news or Queer as Folk. I don't know, the differences seem to stare me in the face. This is not a judgment on either culture. It's just my empirical observation.
Honestly, it's only been now that I realize I've been offending you with my every post. I'm very new to Slog, and I've been delighted and relieved to find a place where this difficult, volatile, but important conversation is still continuing to take place. I mean, at least here, the few trolls are ignored! Most other places (at least ones with which I'm familiar) it's gone away because no one wants to address it.
Seriously, asteria (and apres_moi if needed), please accept my apology for being offensive. I honestly thought I was onto something good and helpful here.
74
70..that's the stupidest thing i've heard all week..as if all baptists beleive the same things .. as if there aren't MANY different kinds of baptists.. and as if black baptists and white baptists believed the same thing in his day..or in this day..
tell me more about who he was..
stupid stupid stupid
tell me more about who he was..
stupid stupid stupid
75
What I see is that, as their rights continually expand, the gays move sharply to the right. I think they are upset because the minorities stabbed them in the back first. Gay marriage signals the end of gay/lesbian political involvement. All those years of the closet signify them not being willing to take political risks for anyone else besides themselves. It wasn't HIV that caused people to come out, but the availability of pre-packaged identities to slip into and safe, sanitized, segregated ghettos to live in. Real edgy.
76
I guess in the end what offends me is not so much your co-opting of the language of the civil rights movement--that belongs to everyone--but rather your appropriation of a history which is actually someone's heritage. Like it or not, the gays are generally not linked by blood; you will never feel the pain that, say, Matthew Shepard's mother or MLK's children felt.
But hey, at least that allows you to distance yourself from your history and its responsibility in a way that blacks, whites, Jews, etc cannot. Like the feminists, you have 'waves' ('generations' is a word studiously avoided); so when things such as racial exclusivity are brought up, you can merely attribute them to the previous wave.
I particularly have to recommend looking into the end of 'second wave' feminism. They, like you, pretended to have a giant rainbow tribe. They, like you, consistently ignored the pleas of the poor and minorities. They, like you, ascribed to racial caste. And when they tried to pass the ERA, they lost. The ERA still isn't legislated into law. That should tell you how successful this marriage fight is going to be.
The civil rights movement had to have sold out entirely before white gays would join it. Your 'activism' consists of snaring corporate endorsements. Ask Microsoft to legitimize your marriage; don't further cheapen the words of King.
But hey, at least that allows you to distance yourself from your history and its responsibility in a way that blacks, whites, Jews, etc cannot. Like the feminists, you have 'waves' ('generations' is a word studiously avoided); so when things such as racial exclusivity are brought up, you can merely attribute them to the previous wave.
I particularly have to recommend looking into the end of 'second wave' feminism. They, like you, pretended to have a giant rainbow tribe. They, like you, consistently ignored the pleas of the poor and minorities. They, like you, ascribed to racial caste. And when they tried to pass the ERA, they lost. The ERA still isn't legislated into law. That should tell you how successful this marriage fight is going to be.
The civil rights movement had to have sold out entirely before white gays would join it. Your 'activism' consists of snaring corporate endorsements. Ask Microsoft to legitimize your marriage; don't further cheapen the words of King.
77
jade @73 - you know, I really wasn't offended; I was angry about a lot of the other comments that just reproduce this (straight) black vs. (white) gay divide most people take for granted as always true. You happened to respond to that comment, and I responded to you, and even though I was clearly angry I tried to be respectful of you as a person. I don't really think you need to apologize, at least not to me. If you feel that I was offensive to you, do accept my apology.
I think it is totally valid for you to say that your experience has been that there is no "common ground" between gay and black culture. But don't try to impose that perspective on everyone, especially someone who already has spoken about his experience as a gay black man. I didn't read the response @64 as him asking your opinion about where he fits in; what I read (read into?) it was: "hey, you are talking about this divide as if it's miles apart, and if that's true that doesn't leave me any space to be fully myself. what the fuck." Just because there isn't much common ground doesn't mean there is no common ground, and it definitely doesn't mean people can't move back and forth between different cultural spaces.
As I said in an earlier post, I'm a straight white woman. But I have the humbling experience of having close queer friends that will bluntly but lovingly call me on my straight assumptions. I have also sought out the perspective of queer people of color, mostly women, through books and documentaries and occasionally workshops. Mostly what I hear from them is that they just want the space to be themselves; don't ask someone to choose between the black community and the gay community. Do you choose between being white and gay? I am of course assuming here that you are white because you haven't mentioned your own race.
If we (white folks) really want to help queer black folks with homophobia in the black community I think we should first support their humanity, ask what kind of support we could give, and also work on finding what we have in common. But I don't know how to do that on Slog, and I know when people have asked similar questions at events I've been to the answer is usually that we actively engage in conversation with other white people about how we participate in racism, even unintentionally, and what we can do to resist racism.
More...
I think it is totally valid for you to say that your experience has been that there is no "common ground" between gay and black culture. But don't try to impose that perspective on everyone, especially someone who already has spoken about his experience as a gay black man. I didn't read the response @64 as him asking your opinion about where he fits in; what I read (read into?) it was: "hey, you are talking about this divide as if it's miles apart, and if that's true that doesn't leave me any space to be fully myself. what the fuck." Just because there isn't much common ground doesn't mean there is no common ground, and it definitely doesn't mean people can't move back and forth between different cultural spaces.
As I said in an earlier post, I'm a straight white woman. But I have the humbling experience of having close queer friends that will bluntly but lovingly call me on my straight assumptions. I have also sought out the perspective of queer people of color, mostly women, through books and documentaries and occasionally workshops. Mostly what I hear from them is that they just want the space to be themselves; don't ask someone to choose between the black community and the gay community. Do you choose between being white and gay? I am of course assuming here that you are white because you haven't mentioned your own race.
If we (white folks) really want to help queer black folks with homophobia in the black community I think we should first support their humanity, ask what kind of support we could give, and also work on finding what we have in common. But I don't know how to do that on Slog, and I know when people have asked similar questions at events I've been to the answer is usually that we actively engage in conversation with other white people about how we participate in racism, even unintentionally, and what we can do to resist racism.
78
Some people are offended because supposedly blacks have endured much more than gays. I'm not so sure. If blacks have endured it for hundreds of years, gays have endured prejudice for thousands. If blacks have been killed, gays have resorted to suicide. It is true that blacks have no closet to resort to, but closeted gays live in the constant fear of exposure and blackmail. If homosexuality were not so poorly regarded, Larry Craig would have sex in his bedroom not a bathroom. The 'N' word is out of circulation, but any form of denigration tends toward a homosexual epithet. Are the two comparable? Yes and no. I understand the african-american's unease with the comparison. I wish they could understand the gay person's position better.
79
# 3..
it seems that nobody here knows or cares about the legacy of bayard rustin let's interject his legacy into this discussion once again. shall we ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayard_Rust…
black . gay . civil rights.
it seems that nobody here knows or cares about the legacy of bayard rustin let's interject his legacy into this discussion once again. shall we ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayard_Rust…
black . gay . civil rights.
80
could somebody clarify for me. is it not true that the civil right that gays are fighting for is marriage in name?
to me it seems like the equal rights under the law that black people fought for in the civil rights movement of the last century can really only be compared in spirit, and even that is a stretch. yes, the hatred and homophobia are as vivid and destructive as the racism and hate crimes against black people, but those represent a cultural void of morality that cannot be addressed by laws (i.e. its already illegal to beat a man because he is gay). however, looking at the actual civil rights being fought for here, and without detracting from the injustice of prop 8, many people, including myself, see it as a little too much of a stretch to compare the gay couple who doesnt have a marriage license to the black couple being blasted with a firehouse for absolutely no reason.
pick me apart, and im sorry about the extemporaneous rambling that are my thoughts.
to me it seems like the equal rights under the law that black people fought for in the civil rights movement of the last century can really only be compared in spirit, and even that is a stretch. yes, the hatred and homophobia are as vivid and destructive as the racism and hate crimes against black people, but those represent a cultural void of morality that cannot be addressed by laws (i.e. its already illegal to beat a man because he is gay). however, looking at the actual civil rights being fought for here, and without detracting from the injustice of prop 8, many people, including myself, see it as a little too much of a stretch to compare the gay couple who doesnt have a marriage license to the black couple being blasted with a firehouse for absolutely no reason.
pick me apart, and im sorry about the extemporaneous rambling that are my thoughts.
81
#80..if that is the summary of the discussion..here goes..
while it's true that the current 'right' that's highlighted ( marriage ) singular, i think it's a mistake of tone and focus to separate the marriage and family rights from the entire gay struggle for respect and rights in general. it would be like separating any one aspect of african american rights from the whole. the rights won by african americans did not naturally extend to all people and the struggle for inclusion - of rights to privacy, to family, to employment, to not be discriminated against as regards housing , hate crime statutes, health care issues - while largely addressed in whole are still issues for gays in many places in this country. and they still are for african americans as well. this is why the comparison is apt. for both the gathering of rights is a process for gays this is another step in that process.prop 8 ( and i'm not sure why no-one in this discussion grasps that the california prop is but one of many that are either on the books or in the planning stages ) is but part of that struggle.
oh ..and the gay couple that wants a marriage license ? they aren't just looking for a piece of paper or for a 'name' , but for all the protection that the law afford other couples, for them , their spouses, their children and their families. it may seem like small potatoes to those who can take these rights for granted, but the vehemence by which we continued to be denied suggest otherwise.
while it's true that the current 'right' that's highlighted ( marriage ) singular, i think it's a mistake of tone and focus to separate the marriage and family rights from the entire gay struggle for respect and rights in general. it would be like separating any one aspect of african american rights from the whole. the rights won by african americans did not naturally extend to all people and the struggle for inclusion - of rights to privacy, to family, to employment, to not be discriminated against as regards housing , hate crime statutes, health care issues - while largely addressed in whole are still issues for gays in many places in this country. and they still are for african americans as well. this is why the comparison is apt. for both the gathering of rights is a process for gays this is another step in that process.prop 8 ( and i'm not sure why no-one in this discussion grasps that the california prop is but one of many that are either on the books or in the planning stages ) is but part of that struggle.
oh ..and the gay couple that wants a marriage license ? they aren't just looking for a piece of paper or for a 'name' , but for all the protection that the law afford other couples, for them , their spouses, their children and their families. it may seem like small potatoes to those who can take these rights for granted, but the vehemence by which we continued to be denied suggest otherwise.
82
The difference between the civil rights struggle and the gay rights struggle is that gays actually care about the gay rights struggle. You, like the 3rd wave feminists, lack the responsibility of blood. Those people who got the dogs and fire hoses were the fathers and grandfathers of the people who voted yes on Prop 8. And why not? When the civil rights struggle was going on, the only 'out' gays were those who could not afford a closet--namely the poor and minorities. You didn't attend the marches, you have no legacy in the civil rights movement. You have corporations and the gay dollar. The rights and safety for non-white gays will not improve should you get marriage. What will happen is that you will drop out of the civil rights movement altogether.
You had every opportunity to address what minorities in your own community complained about. Instead the marches, clubs and organizations are now de facto segregated. The minorities voted with their feet, and I don't blame them. In fact, white people (gays especially) have shown that oppressing someone else seems to be the quickest path to prosperity--how exactly are minorities to blame in taking it? Why, when showcasing 'gay history' do you showcase Abe Lincoln and not Cecil Rhodes? Indeed, the gay clubs are still segregated by door policy in South Africa--that's his gay legacy. The real disparity is in saying we don't have the moral right to be as prejudiced as you have already shown yourselves to be. If it gains true minorities power, then I say to hell with gay marriage, gay adoption, and antidiscrimination policies in general. I know they don't help me.
You had every opportunity to address what minorities in your own community complained about. Instead the marches, clubs and organizations are now de facto segregated. The minorities voted with their feet, and I don't blame them. In fact, white people (gays especially) have shown that oppressing someone else seems to be the quickest path to prosperity--how exactly are minorities to blame in taking it? Why, when showcasing 'gay history' do you showcase Abe Lincoln and not Cecil Rhodes? Indeed, the gay clubs are still segregated by door policy in South Africa--that's his gay legacy. The real disparity is in saying we don't have the moral right to be as prejudiced as you have already shown yourselves to be. If it gains true minorities power, then I say to hell with gay marriage, gay adoption, and antidiscrimination policies in general. I know they don't help me.
83
dan is hopelessly tone deaf. Gay rights don't need the precedent of civil rights for their justification.
84
but one good thing he has managed to accomplish inadvertently is to reveal how tenuous any notion of "community" is when applied to gay people.
Most Commented on Slog
-
Life and Death in a Recliner in South Carolina by Dan Savage
-
Pit Bulls! by Dan Savage
-
Becoming a Man by Dan Savage
-
SL Letter of the Day: Hot & Drunk by Dan Savage
-
Your Wife Died Alone... by Dan Savage
-
Meanwhile in Vancouver by Dan Savage
-
Precious: Brutal New Classic or African-American Bruno? by David Schmader
-
The Democrats Have 60 Votes in the Senate for Health Care Reform by Jonathan Golob
-
Real Salt Lake vs. Galaxy Open Thread by Christopher Frizzelle
-
The Panic Over Mammograms by Audrey Van Buskirk
RSS
Facebook
Twitter
Comments (84) RSS